Being kept hostage in champion select is a real problem.

NuggeTech·Sep 11, 2017·31 votes·1,981 views

This is just stupid. I don't know what do people get out of it but some of the POS beings will either demand a role even though they didn't get it, pick a champ that someone else was going to pick or ban a player's champ.

The only solution to this is dodging. Better to lose 3 LP rather than 20.But I have question, why do I have to compromise? Why should I have to dodge or risk losing 20 LP when the a-hole who was demanding stuffs for his pampered a** , gets away scot free? You could be in the best mood when you start the game but this will completely ruin it. Sometimes when they ban their champ, they refuse to apologize. Either they insult the person whose champ they banned or say something BS like learn to play a skilled champ or learn to git gud.

Please do something about this. This starting to become annoying as there are no repercussions. They know Riot won't do anything since the game hasn't started. However it ends, the loser is the one who is forced to dodge or the 4 players who have to deal with this s**t

61 Comments

YerroFeverSep 11, 20177 votes

There needs to be a report in champ select ability. Pregame chat and behavior really needs to be looked at because this is quite problematic. It starts off the game on the wrong foot because they've already started being toxic from the first second they joined their team.

SanKakUSep 11, 20175 votes

1- People trade their slot to them which reinforces their bad behavior. 2- They lose LP if no one trades with them, so they're even more likely to dodge than you are. 3- Every time one of their allies dodges, that includes you, they get another free dodge. Their dodges are a lot more limited than you'd think. 4- Because dodges are as limited as they are, many people that play ranked use smurfs so they can keep on playing during the dodge penalties. 5- If you don't want them dodging more, don't give them free dodges. 6- With the rune rework coming, unless Riot does something else about dodging, it will become much more of a problem than it is now. 7- Smurf accounts will have access to all runes without any IP grinding needed at all. 8- Low Rune Page accounts will be even more likely to demand a certain slot since they can't even autofill realistically with that small of a rune page count.

Stay Close DearSep 11, 20174 votes

Why don't just start monitoring lobby chat, explicitly state that this behavior is not allowed and punishable and allow us to report players in lobby? No need for a safe dodging system, there wouldn't be as many trolls if they knew they can't get away with it

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 20171 votes

Precisely. Most of the time these players are just bluffing anyways, and won't do anything in-game because they don't want to receive punishment. In the games I play where nobody dodged, the 'troll' player usually chickens out and does what they were assigned because they don't want to actually suffer any consequences.

RaiyzaSep 11, 20172 votes

There should be a disband vote. If 4 out of the 5 players agree that one person is being a complete fucknugget, it shlould penalize the voted out player and a new lobby would start.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 20174 votes

The only problem with that is that 4-man teams could screw over solo players who get matched with them. And teams could punish players for picking off-meta when they are doing so with a legitimate strategy in mind and a plan to win the game with it.

it would both enforce the meta and increase instances of solo players getting bullied around by groups of 4.

ChuShoeSep 11, 20172 votes

This should be a vote that's unanimous among 3 people at least just to remake the match, and only available in solo/duo ranked. If a fourth player votes to remake as well, then the player in question should be penalized in a small way, like a small qeue ban.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 20172 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

That's a great idea!

NiteliteSep 12, 20171 votes

I don't think you realize how badly this can be abused.

ChuShoeSep 12, 20172 votes

It could be abused, but I don't think it could be abused easily. If it's a solo/duo ranked, two people alone can't win the vote, because it has to gain 3 votes to even remake. If a fourth player votes yes, then a small qeue ban is issued to the person in question. The ban being maybe 2-3 minutes. This keeps parties of 4 from screwing over solo players, and makes sure that if it is done wrongfully, the punishment isn't severe.

RaiyzaSep 11, 20171 votes

I dont see that happening. What would be a good reason for premades of 4 to intentionally screw their 5th player? If it happens it would be a rare case. If anything, it could just be as if someone dodged. All it would do is go to a new lobby. That way there wouldnt be a punishment for the guy who just picks off meta shit.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I dont see that happening. What would be a good reason for premades of 4 to intentionally screw their 5th player?

If they feel like picking on somebody, or if they just don't want to play with off-meta strategies.

If it happens it would be a rare case.

Even in rare occurrences such events would be awful.

If anything, it could just be as if someone dodged. All it would do is go to a new lobby. That way there wouldnt be a punishment for the guy who just picks off meta shit.

Unfortunately it is possible that a majority of players would not want to play with the off-meta player. This is why the teambuilder was replaced. Players were closed-minded and would not accept teammates who wanted to do something off-meta. Players wanting to play anything off-meta would be stuck in excessively long queues.

RaiyzaSep 11, 20171 votes

Then it's a double edged sword. The premade would kick the non-meta out, then go back into queue, further delaying their own gameplay. It would be a choice. Sure, it would suck for the solo player, but like I said. It would only be as if someone dodged. They'd be in a new lobby in 30 seconds.

I don't often deal with players like that. Most of my games have something off meta. One in a while someone will question the off meta choice, but thats it.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 20171 votes

Okay, well fair enough.

I'm not opposed to these mechanisms being implemented as long as they offer protection against abuse cases.

IPromiseTomorrowSep 12, 20171 votes

Well if it's rare and quite a miniscule occurance. Well It'd happen once every 2000 games or so

I've yet to be in a game where 4 teammates were so toxic they reported me x4

Never happend to my friends nor showed up on the boards for years. I doubt for it to even happen twice.

Also this new system destroys trolls in champ select already.

RaiyzaSep 12, 20171 votes

It's also much more fun to troll the guys in your premade rather than the solo guy. [slayer-jinx-wink]

IPromiseTomorrowSep 12, 20171 votes

ChermorgSep 11, 20171 votes

Because there is not yet anyone suggesting a valid system that would be 99.99% unabusable that would permit this “free dodge” type thing.

If they are toxic in chat (such as threatening to troll/afk/etc, cursing at you, etc) then you can screenshot and send a support ticket and they’ll punish for toxic chat. But until someone comes up with a good idea for a system that couldn’t be abused, then they can’t implement the system that hasn’t been described.

NuggeTechSep 11, 20177 votes

How about a vote on abandoning the queue altogether? The trolls won't win and the innocent ones will have nothing to lose

AmazoXSep 11, 20177 votes

{quoted}

How about a vote on abandoning the queue altogether? The trolls won't win and the innocent ones will have nothing to lose

Inb4 premades out number the solo players and win the vote system

NuggeTechSep 11, 20172 votes

Well it's not like it will affect our LP.If the pre-mades dodge because something does not go their way, good for us. None of us want to play with these kind of love birds. Queues now a days are hardly 5 min. Re-queuing is not that big of a deal

zero356Sep 11, 20173 votes

Require 4 votes, not majority Parties of 4 disabled

MonkeyMadnessSep 11, 20171 votes

Premades would get 1 vote in such a system to prevent exactly this. 4-stacks should be banned, as they cause nothing but problems. No good can come from allowing 4 people to match with 1 random. Literally 100% a mistake for riot to allow this, and we have documented proof for this claim.

TrulyBlandSep 11, 20172 votes

Actually the trolls will win if you implement that, because that's what they want. The vast majority of champion select trolls are trying to get other people to dodge for them so they get away without a penalty.

That's the reason why it's such a shitty situation. Any kind of leniency towards dodging such trolls actually empowers them and validates champion select trolling as an effective strategy to get out of a lousy team composition, your less preferred role or having your champion banned or picked by the enemy.

NuggeTechSep 11, 20174 votes

Hmm, I can't really say about the trolls winning because from my POV, trolls want to ruin games of other players. By the "safe-dodge" the queue is abandoned and no one loses or wins

TrulyBlandSep 11, 20175 votes

"Real" trolls do want to just ruin games, but that kind of troll is rare. The much more common reason to troll champion select is people trying to get out of a game without the dodge penalty. In fact a lot of them are only bluffing and, when people call their bluff, end up dodging themselves.

no one loses or wins

Except the people who want to be able to get out of every game that isn't up to their standards, who only have to pretend to troll to get people to abandon it. Those people win. And with a relative ranking system, everybody who doesn't do that loses.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 20172 votes

This. I'm a stubborn person, and I will not dodge when somebody tries this. If they want to try to ruin my experience they had better be ready to commit their full time to it.

Most of the time they chicken out and do what they are supposed to, resorting to more petty and mundane forms of trolling and harassment. It's simple enough to report them after the match for those sorts of things, and if they actually do commit and troll the match then it is even easier to get them banned.

IPromiseTomorrowSep 12, 20172 votes

Ok So trolls win boo hoo 2 minutes later or more i go into another Queue and then i go into champ select and then i realize

I saved a promo or LP and 25 minutes of my time.

Trolls won yea right.

MysterQSep 11, 20171 votes

So if they get votekicked, then give them a penalty.

MonkeyMadnessSep 11, 20171 votes

See my proposition above for a safer system that really cannot be abused in any capacity.

MonkeyMadnessSep 11, 20172 votes

Here's the system that Riot should implement (and I've been saying this for literally years and got nothing but downvotes for it, for some reason).

You see someone trolling in champ select. You click a little button next to that player's name. It allows you to file a report similarly to how end-game reporting works. Upon submitting such a report, the client automatically kicks you from the queue and blocks your ability to requeue for ranked for a few minutes (sucks a bit, but bear with me). Given that literally all reports (0 exceptions) are handled by the automated banbot, processing of the report will take only minute tops. After processing, if the banbot is able to detect evidence of trolling, or an otherwise deliberate attempt to put people on tilt/at a disadvantage for the upcoming match, that player is punished (low priority queue and hefty LP loss should do the trick, escalating to actual account suspension if the behavior continues), and the reporter is forgiven of the dodge penalty and immediately allowed to requeue. If the report was found to be frivolous, the reporter would receive the standard dodge penalty.

This solve the issue of such a system being abused (as there is risk associated with a false report).

Cruel WomanSep 11, 20171 votes

don't you think that's a bit much

MonkeyMadnessSep 11, 20171 votes

Penalizing trolls with LP deductions and 30 minute queue times seems harsh to you? Meanwhile if you get visibly angry at these people one too many times, you just get slapped with a permaban. Ya, probably should show some leniency to the trolls...

IPromiseTomorrowSep 12, 20171 votes

No they won't the innocent ones get to abandon those champ select trolls.

If a troll was in the lobby then I'd vote to abandon the Queue and the troll is annoying to everyone and me so that's 4 votes to abandon the champ select screen. Then i lose no lp or promo and life is good.

PS Fu** those silly things about doing what the trolls want you to do. It's our choice to get into a game with no trolls who cares what the trolls think anyways.

Cruel WomanSep 11, 20171 votes

i see what you are saying because i dont know about anyone one else but when i lock in leblanc and they lock in yas after me and calls mid when i already called mid and runs it down mid and we have 2 mids because lets face it leblanc cant jg without smite (or period) and the yas is going 0/3485/0 that's a waste of my time honestly id rather have vote kick in champ select or something and have the game freeze for like 1 or 2 min while they find someone or something i dont know how they would do it but yeah

SOMETHING HAS TO GIVEEEEEEEEEE

MysterQSep 11, 20171 votes

It is super hard to report outside of postagme lobby.

I have tried, I have went to the contact FAQ and stuff. My response was "This is not the right subject line to report someone" even though my email was "How do I report this dude. Here is his information in case it is you."

ChermorgSep 11, 20171 votes

They’ve gotten better about it. They still won’t say if punishment was issued or not, but they do review all of them now.

I think you can submit under any ticket and they’ll forward it to the right team, at least that’s my experience.

MonkeyMadnessSep 11, 20171 votes

if you need a system that is literally that fool-proof, then leave the planet, as none such system exists here for literally ANYTHING. People will ALWAYS find a way to abuse the system.
easy solution: champ select reporting. File report, submit. system automatically dodges the game for you and blocks you from requeuing for a few minutes while a rioter/banbot reviews the chat logs from champ select and decides if the actions of the reportee warrant a legitimate fear of trolling. If yes, offending player is punished and the dodge penalty is forgiven. Given that literally everything on Riot's end is automated (including permanent bans, btw) this would take no more than 5 mins, even in the middle of the night.

If the report is found to be erroneous or otherwise invalid, reporter receives standard dodge penalty.

submitting screenshots does literally nothing. Rioters literally never read support tickets EVER. Everything is automated. They don't give a shit. At present, the only bannable offenses come from the in-game chat. If you can prove otherwise, I'd very much like to see it; but I have yet to see a case of a player being punished for something done in pre/post-game chat, as they are considered to be on the client server and the the in-game server (and therefore inexplicably inaccessible to the ban bot).

ChermorgSep 11, 20171 votes

It is not me, but Riot, that prefers their systems to be almost foolproof. If Riot is going to implement an automated system for something, they will ensure that the implementation is so foolproof such as the false positives are so few and far between that it doesn't take up support time to deal with them. That is why the IFS for chat is in place, as well as the one for common troll builds/running down mid - they've made both of those so foolproof such that they actually save time instead of take more time dealing with false punishments.
"while a Rioter... reviews the chat logs from champ select" - the only way you could determine if it was actual trolling is to have a Rioter review it. The nuances of champ select trolling are far too many to reliably have a bot dodge it. But, you're the first person I've seen suggest that the reporter receive the dodge penalty for it if it's deemed a bad dodge. Could I also suggest that you a) maybe require more than one person to vote to dodge, with only the first one at risk for dodge penalty (that way others would have to second the vote and people couldn't dodge for no reason), and b) post this in a thread so it can be discussed, because it seems like one of the more viable options?
They do read support tickets. I have had multiple tickets in the past 2 weeks have actual, obviously human responses. The IFS does see pre/post game chat, however it's not displayed in reform cards due to the reason you state. Riot and the IFS (banbot) can see both.

MonkeyMadnessSep 11, 20172 votes

the only way you could determine if it was actual trolling is to have a Rioter review it

This is why the Tribunal should be brought back in full force complete with rewards for players who are committed to the actual service of justice (ie have a high percentage of correct votes).

If Riot is going to implement an automated system for something

No system of punishment should be automated. There's a reason why an actual criminal trial can extend for months. This is the only way to ensure that all the evidence is given correct context and that the verdict is fair based on EVERYTHING surrounding the case. But Riot fundamentally believes the opposite, for some unknowable reason...

Riot and the IFS (banbot) can see both.

If Riot/banbot could see post-game chat, I'd be seeing a lot more confirmations about my reports resulting in punishments...

ChermorgSep 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This is why the Tribunal should be brought back in full force complete with rewards for players who are committed to the actual service of justice (ie have a high percentage of correct votes).

It was removed because it was running with a huge backlog. Even adding rewards, it'd still probably have that backlog. Especially since before, it was take 1-3 minutes to review this chat log. With trolling/gameplay offenses, it's easily 20-40 minutes per case, and that's if you don't have to go back and look at something again. That's assuming people would vote based on the full game, and not just based on assumptions.

No system of punishment should be automated. There's a reason why an actual criminal trial can extend for months. This is the only way to ensure that all the evidence is given correct context and that the verdict is fair based on EVERYTHING surrounding the case. But Riot fundamentally believes the opposite, for some unknowable reason...

There's a difference between a criminal trial and League of Legends. There is not evidence to be found in a league case for toxic chat, and the evidence in a case for gameplay trolling/offenses is all already present and readily accessible. There is absolutely no need for a prolonged trial/discovery/argument period, as there is no defense needed or allowed. There is no need to look at "everything" because everyone is judged on their own action. The difference is in real life, someone likely caused great harm to another individual, and they are threatened with having their life ruined (long jail times/large fines) for doing so. In League, it's a fucking videogame, nobody got harmed, and nobody's life will be ruined by getting a punishment.

There is absolutely no reason punishment cannot be black/white in 99.99% of cases in League, and in black and white cases, an automated system works great.

If Riot/banbot could see post-game chat, I'd be seeing a lot more confirmations about my reports resulting in punishments...

That's one of the things - the banbot doesn't send confirmations based on things unless you were the absolute last reporter to have reported that person. Further, I believe I read somewhere that it doesn't send confirmations on bans issued for pre/post game toxicity because it reviews those, but separately than it does in game chat. Regardless, your confirmations are not a valid indicator of its ability to see pre/post game chat.

MonkeyMadnessSep 12, 20171 votes

It was removed because it was running with a huge backlog.

As I said in my post, real justice takes time, and this is why actual criminal trials often span months. If Riot incentivizes player involvement in the tribunal, it will help expedite the process to an acceptable level. I understand handing out chat bans via a ban bot, but I have proof of riot handing out actual account suspensions via an automated system (personal experience). This is not ok.

With trolling/gameplay offenses, it's easily 20-40 minutes per case

Even more reason to bring back the Tribunal. Can't realistically expect Riot to actually care enough to review every troll report (even if they did care they wouldn't have the manpower). I know for a fact that other online games have a system where players can view in-game footage of players accused of trolling/cheating and levy punishments against them on behalf of the community. Why Riot is so behind the times with this shit is beyond me.

There is absolutely no need for a prolonged trial/discovery/argument period

Yes there is, and that need is to determine context. If, for example, I told you to "fuck off" in game, I would be at odds with the BanBot. However, what the ban bot/Riot refuse to acknowledge is the scenario in which I said that. What if you had told me to kill myself, or that you hoped my family died of cancer, which precipitated the "fuck off". I do not care for a "well you are ruining the game, too" speech here. If someone tells you to kill yourself, a "fuck off" is more than warranted. And before you tell me that Riot doesn't do this, I have been banned for a very similar (albeit more complex) situation. It fucking sucks.

That's one of the things - the banbot doesn't send confirmations based on things unless you were the absolute last reporter to have reported that person

Yes, and this is wrong. Even still though, I should be seeing more. I think this season I've only seen the message 2 or 3 times. You'll have to trust me on this one, but I've encountered orders of magnitude more bannable behavior than that would suggest. Actually, let's just look at the math. Let's say that a really toxic player gets 9 reports. That means I have effectively a 1/9 chance of getting the message. This is a worst case scenario. I most definitely have not received a message for 1/9 of my reports. And even considering the fact that it takes 3 offenses to cause a punishment (trust me, I know from experience here), my yield is very low. Something is either wrong with the notifications or they are just not reading the reports. If you can provide a Rioter article about this I'd be happy to read it, but my experience with the system is that they don't consider pre/post game chat.

ChermorgSep 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes there is, and that need is to determine context. If, for example, I told you to "fuck off" in game, I would be at odds with the BanBot. However, what the ban bot/Riot refuse to acknowledge is the scenario in which I said that. What if you had told me to kill myself, or that you hoped my family died of cancer, which precipitated the "fuck off". I do not care for a "well you are ruining the game, too" speech here. If someone tells you to kill yourself, a "fuck off" is more than warranted. And before you tell me that Riot doesn't do this, I have been banned for a very similar (albeit more complex) situation. It fucking sucks.

That is all fine and dandy, but the difference between real life and League is that you have a button that will literally cease the abuse hurled at you in League. Context doesn't matter, because it's legitimately a video game. No harm is coming to you from losing a game if that's what's happening, and you can mute the verbal abuse if that's what's happening.

Yes, and this is wrong. Even still though, I should be seeing more. I think this season I've only seen the message 2 or 3 times. You'll have to trust me on this one, but I've encountered orders of magnitude more bannable behavior than that would suggest. Actually, let's just look at the math. Let's say that a really toxic player gets 9 reports. That means I have effectively a 1/9 chance of getting the message. This is a worst case scenario. I most definitely have not received a message for 1/9 of my reports. And even considering the fact that it takes 3 offenses to cause a punishment (trust me, I know from experience here), my yield is very low. Something is either wrong with the notifications or they are just not reading the reports.

The notifications are known to be bugged. To be quite honest with you, I don't know how many times Rioters have posted saying "we know it'll be fixed soon (TM)" and it hasn't been.

If you can provide a Rioter article about this I'd be happy to read it, but my experience with the system is that they don't consider pre/post game chat.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/hc8ewEEk-can-riot-read-post-game-chat

That thread provides a couple (old, but still true as the storage systems haven't changed since then) sources.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/FIK4jUAs-is-pre-game-and-after-game-chat-recorded-if-not-why?comment=0001

This one from DTN, an arbiter who is considered to be somewhat authoritative (knows what they're talking about) but not quite as much so as Riot themselves.

If that's not good enough, I can try and find a more recent post (those were from google, I can probably find a Red post more recently if I dig through the boards).

MonkeyMadnessSep 12, 20171 votes

That is all fine and dandy, but the difference between real life and League is that you have a button that will literally cease the abuse hurled at you in League.

Look up "catharsis". There have been waaay too many times where the only reason I don't tilt off the table is because I resort to yelling back at some of these clowns.

The notifications are known to be bugged. To be quite honest with you, I don't know how many times Rioters have posted saying "we know it'll be fixed soon (TM)" and it hasn't been.

In that case, Riot has managed to make me even sicker with their utter disregard for their community that I was previously. Such a rich company that literally only has 1 job (ie League of Legends) really has 0 excuse for the game not being damn near perfect.

With respect to whether or not Riot reads pre/post-game chat, it seems like Riot needs to manually check these logs (as opposed to having it automatically filtered through the ban bot upon receipt of the report). This means that they seldom (if ever) are checked, as Riot no longer cares to read reports/support tickets regarding such issues.

La Belle SauvageSep 11, 20171 votes

Do not trade with them period. If they troll in game then report them after. Whatever you do don't give in to them.

MysterQSep 11, 20172 votes

But I often forget to report after. Hopefully someone else does, but Riot's system isn't good for this.

If I have a terrible troll game. I just literally close out often. I am done with the game, so I miss my chance to report easily.

DarkRitualSep 11, 20171 votes

Send a support ticket in. It takes awhile to get a response, as they are perpetually backed up with tickets, but it's better than nothing, right?

MysterQSep 11, 20171 votes

It takes time.

My last and only attempt. "What heading do I send this report in. Also here is the screenshot, the dude was toxic." The reply "we are not the correct group to file reports."

Gee thanks. At least tell me who is like I asked.

HalcyonDwellerSep 11, 20171 votes

You probably didn't use the category for reporting abusive behavior. As Chermorg stated earlier, there is a specific option within the ticket filing page. You have to read your options carefully and chose the correct title.

MysterQSep 11, 20171 votes

I definitely read my options multiple times. And none of them fit with the report so I went with like the General topic thing.