Items have become too overloaded. A problem cheered on by those unwilling to learn when and why.

Irelia Bot··9 votes·1,266 views

Perhaps it is just my stance having been one of the bruiser/assassin players who thinks that marksman should be really easy to punish for their mistakes since they build glass cannon but it seems like less is allowed to happen when marksmen mostly control the outcome of the game. Yes this is me saying I would rather deal with a fed LeBlanc early season 4 instead of a Fed Vayne now since there were things you could do to contend with the LeBlanc. A Leblanc never once used Qss against me to get out of a stun but vaynes have done it many times but it is far more common since she gives nothing up in getting a QSS today.

Health has been massively nerfed since season 2. Yes I remember Warmogs maxing out at like 1300 and having a lot of Hp5 but also having to be stacked based on champion kills, assists and CS. Force Of Nature being the go too MR item since no other MR items besides BV were decent. To top it off % health damage is literally everywhere now compared to season 2 where something like 5 champs had it somewhere in their kit and you had to get Madred's bloodrazor for any kind of item % health damage which was considered so bad that only some vaynes, Udyr and WW might get it.

Wit's end being a good rush item for some champs at the cost of it not scaling the best into late game was nice in season 2 since it was limited in what it offered for an item slot. It was a sacrifice of late game power for early to mid game potential.

Sure there are more items today but they are all so overloaded in their final build that there is no sacrifice in getting any of them. You don't trade some good damage in getting a QSS over a ghostblade anymore and even things like Hexdrinker which was alright but not the best have been given such a strong build option that there is no sacrifice in getting certain items that were there to allow a way to contend with potential issues early to mid game but not scale the best into late game.

Yes I am saying that this game was better when you had to give up something in order to get something situational. Those days are long gone and with it goes a fair amount impactful decision making. CoH before athene's was a joke because if you learned to play smart you could manage mana. You sacrificed an item slot to greatly reduce mana issues in getting CoH and in turn it meant less AP and the like.

Riot Yes I am going to say it. Making so many items that contend with a problem without trading something in getting them has left the game worse then it was in season 2.

It is not going to be solved over night and is likely to late to turn back but it all seemed to start with simple additions like athene's, Maw and scimitar. Generally liked by players mainly because it took a fair amount of real decision making out of their playing as to what should be bought when dealing with a given threat. Would you rather have more damage or be able to use a QSS and get out of the WW ult so you can actually be a part of the fight? Decisions like that were actually rather showing as to if someone was going to win or lose a game. Not anymore since now QSS builds into an item that has a better QSS active, 35 MR, 75 AD and 10% life steal. There is no tough decision making with builds and no real sacrifice to be made in getting any of these items that once were a choice to contend with a problem., not even 30 damage worth of sacrifice in getting the QSS today so you can contend with a potential issue like WW who has since that become either OP or UP depending on the patch.

You want an example of a reasonable sacrifice that might be bought against the right enemy team comp? QSS + a single pickaxe so it has the active of scimitar, 40 damage and 35 MR and a cost around 2500 that is all. That would be understandable since that is far from an ideal item but would be worth getting against some enemies like WW and Malz.

With the lack of sacrifice in situational items the game is far less impacted by item decisions then it was 4 years ago. This is in fact a lowering of the skill bar that is overall bad for the game.

17 Comments

SoberToaster1 votes

I just think there is way too much hoopla now. i don't even understand half the items they are so overworked.

TG Wrath1 votes

The problem is if you make items with an intermediate price, ADCs, as late game champions, can't afford to build them because they are late game/damage focused. Then you get to situations where those items are never purchased because no one wants them. People didn't want to build Wit's End much because it fell off late game. I agree the new AD items are pretty overwhelming/strong, but iI don't think it's bad. These new items add more options for people to build--yeah certain items will always end up in 6 items builds, but the order you get them in changes. Merc Scim can actually be built without giving up significant amounts of dmg/sustain (you still are giving up the other interesting passives though).

Am I saying these items are balanced and that the current meta is healthy? No. But I'm saying that the item diversity is nice. It makes League a lot more interesting--ADCs aren't all just cookie cutter IE->PD/Shiv. If their is a fed Warwick, they can feasibly build something like Merc Scim without being totally useless at doing their primary job (doing damage).

With the lack of sacrifice in situational items the game is far less impacted by item decisions then it was 4 years ago. This is in fact a lowering of the skill bar that is overall bad for the game.

The problem is, if the situational items are subpar no one wants to buy them--especially ADCs because they are so dependent on doing damage. If anything, I would say this is increasing the skill bar because ADCs actually have to itemize against what they are facing--they can't just keep going IE Shiv and so on, because face it--unless the Warwick was 30/0 the ADC wasn't going to build Mercurial before IE and probably not before Shiv either.

Now if only they could give us some new AP items :D

tl;dr: Since situational items are actual viable, decision-making has actually increased. Items might be overtuned though. Also please give AP mages something Rito

Irelia Bot3 votes

[{quoted}](name=TG Wrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QNF75ON4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-14T02:28:18.369+0000)

The problem is if you make items with an intermediate price, ADCs, as late game champions, can't afford to build them because they are late game/damage focused. Then you get to situations where those items are never purchased because no one wants them. People didn't want to build Wit's End much because it fell off late game. I agree the new AD items are pretty overwhelming/strong, but iI don't think it's bad. These new items add more options for people to build--yeah certain items will always end up in 6 items builds, but the order you get them in changes. Merc Scim can actually be built without giving up significant amounts of dmg/sustain (you still are giving up the other interesting passives though).

Am I saying these items are balanced and that the current meta is healthy? No. But I'm saying that the item diversity is nice. It makes League a lot more interesting--ADCs aren't all just cookie cutter IE->PD/Shiv. If their is a fed Warwick, they can feasibly build something like Merc Scim without being totally useless at doing their primary job (doing damage).

The problem is, if the situational items are subpar no one wants to buy them--especially ADCs because they are so dependent on doing damage. If anything, I would say this is increasing the skill bar because ADCs actually have to itemize against what they are facing--they can't just keep going IE Shiv and so on, because face it--unless the Warwick was 30/0 the ADC wasn't going to build Mercurial before IE and probably not before Shiv either.

Now if only they could give us some new AP items :D

tl;dr: Since situational items are actual viable, decision-making has actually increased. Items might be overtuned though. Also please give AP mages something Rito

What part of scrafice do you not understand? you scrafice some damage for the ability t odo damage instead of getting slaughtered before you can attack once. Before there was scimitar there was QSS and if a marksmen valued beign able to get out of a WW ult instead of getting killed they had the option to get the QSS instead of a damage item.

It in turn actually makes champs like WW have power in their kit beyond just being OP or UP . It allows them to force the enemy ADC to have to give up some damage or risk getting locked down.

TG Wrath2 votes

the thing is no adc would go those alternate paths because they would lose out on too much damage. The sacrifice was too much. You're not sacrificing "some" damage, you are sacrificing a significant amount of damage. On any other champion class, this would work, but ADCs must maximize damage output so going alternative paths that significantly impact damage wasn't viable. As it is now, people still have to sacrifice--yes Mercurial gives a cleanse and lifesteal, but it's combat stats are not as powerful as say a Bloodthirster (shield/more LS).

As for WW, I would argue that it makes the old itemization made him more toxic since ADCs didn't really have QSS as an option early on which meant WW didn't have much counterplay for the first thirty minutes of the game or so. Now there is counterplay. WW is weaker no, yes, but the issue isn't in the items, it's in his kit.

Irelia Bot2 votes

[{quoted}](name=TG Wrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QNF75ON4,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-16T23:18:47.738+0000)

the thing is no adc would go those alternate paths because they would lose out on too much damage. The sacrifice was too much. You're not sacrificing "some" damage, you are sacrificing a significant amount of damage. On any other champion class, this would work, but ADCs must maximize damage output so going alternative paths that significantly impact damage wasn't viable. As it is now, people still have to sacrifice--yes Mercurial gives a cleanse and lifesteal, but it's combat stats are not as powerful as say a Bloodthirster (shield/more LS).

As for WW, I would argue that it makes the old itemization made him more toxic since ADCs didn't really have QSS as an option early on which meant WW didn't have much counterplay for the first thirty minutes of the game or so. Now there is counterplay. WW is weaker no, yes, but the issue isn't in the items, it's in his kit.

If the sacrifice is too much then they die for not making the sacrifice. I see no problem with my logic. Or do people not understand giving up on that $20 steak so they can make it through the month without going into debt?

NostolgicSkies2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QNF75ON4,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T01:38:31.182+0000)

If the sacrifice is too much then they die for not making the sacrifice. I see no problem with my logic. Or do people not understand giving up on that $20 steak so they can make it through the month without going into debt?

now you know why everyone in america is in debt

TG Wrath1 votes

The problem with your comparison is that it fails to take into account the fact that doing damage and "ADC" is intimately related. ADCs need to do damage to be relevant, or they might as well be dead. Think about it---what do ADCs provide that other classes don't? Bruisers/Tanks/Mages can all contribute damage, tankiness, and CC---so why would people ever pick ADCs and why are they a constant presence in all levels of play? Why is that, AP top laners and AD assassins can supplant Bruisers/Taanks and Mages, but the replacement of an ADC basically never happens?

ADCs do damage. It's what they do and it's the reason they are used.

The giving up steak analogy doesn't work here because your scenario fails to adequately address the identity of the ADC itself. ADC literally stands for "attack damage carry". Being "American" is not defined by eating a $20 steak. The role of ADC is to put out as much damage as possible; being an ADC is defined by doing damage.

One sacrifice can be made. One sacrifice can't.

Irelia Bot2 votes

[{quoted}](name=TG Wrath,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QNF75ON4,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-17T03:14:42.784+0000)

The problem with your comparison is that it fails to take into account the fact that doing damage and "ADC" is intimately related. ADCs need to do damage to be relevant, or they might as well be dead. Think about it---what do ADCs provide that other classes don't? Bruisers/Tanks/Mages can all contribute damage, tankiness, and CC---so why would people ever pick ADCs and why are they a constant presence in all levels of play? Why is that, AP top laners and AD assassins can supplant Bruisers/Taanks and Mages, but the replacement of an ADC basically never happens?

ADCs do damage. It's what they do and it's the reason they are used.

The giving up steak analogy doesn't work here because your scenario fails to adequately address the identity of the ADC itself. ADC literally stands for "attack damage carry". Being "American" is not defined by eating a $20 steak. The role of ADC is to put out as much damage as possible; being an ADC is defined by doing damage.

One sacrifice can be made. One sacrifice can't.

Last I checked you are not doing any damage when you get killed unless Karthus or Kog.

You should be getting this items so you are less likely to get killed when your front line is not enough to keep you alive and in turn there should be a price being paid in doing so. It doesn't have to be replacing a PD with a QSS and only a QSS but it should be a reasonable price to be paid.

TG Wrath1 votes

but the thing is, if you aren't doing enough damage you might as well be dead you're useless until you can reach a certain damage break point.

Irelia Bot2 votes

is it better to do 0 damage in a fight or 2500

Compaired to 3500 vs 2500 without QSS when not getting locked down

Give and take. There are tiem shen QSS was completely justified even before it built into anything.

TG Wrath1 votes

logically it's better to do some rather than none but from the ADC perspective it's lose-lose ADC has to spend most of the game farming to really make an impact in a teamfight---being forced to rush a utility item to even do anything, and then have that item be an inferior item that does less damage is not fun. I mean, there is a trade off right now, as far as going Mercurial Scim--if you do, you miss out on the potential damage amps form other items.

BluePolarizer2 votes

no it's not. Let's say the mid matchup is Fizz vs. Zed.

You as ADC have QSS. Your opposing ADC doesn't.

He dies to Fizz and gets 1 shot. You QSS, flash away from Zed and now Zed is dead because even though you deal slightly lower damage, it doesn't matter because you're still hitting squishy Zed who is in the middle of your team.

Congratulations you, you killed 2 members of the enemy team for free.

If you decide that your front line can peel Zed off you and you get a damage item, more power to you. You can make that choice. Or you can make the choice of being safer. Just as the opposing ADC has the choice of building QSS to drop Fizz ult or trusting in his front line to body block it or his own positioning to avoid it.

Or we can take the other extreme to show how the logical flaw of this:

Why not make an item that costs 18k gold that gives +300 AD, QSS active, 80% crit, 80% attack speed and +50% damage on crits? Why not? This item costs the same as the current marksman build and gives the same stats, why not have this item in the game?

TG Wrath1 votes

Why not make an item that costs 18k gold that gives +300 AD, QSS active, 80% crit, 80% attack speed and +50% damage on crits? Why not? This item costs the same as the current marksman build and gives the same stats, why not have this item in the game?

getting the 18k gold to complete the item will be nearly impossible to complete the item, unless it's building out of the ADC build. Also I don't really get the logic behind your comparison? I feel like you might have misunderstood my logic, and thus I misunderstand your rebuttal.

My stance is this: ADCs should have to trade damage for utility, but it shouldn't gimp the ADCs late game. Before, it already felt bad trying to get to the late game; if you make it so

QSS + a single pickaxe so it has the active of scimitar, 40 damage and 35 MR and a cost around 2500 that is all. That would be understandable since that is far from an ideal item but would be worth getting against some enemies like WW and Malz.

this becomes a thing, it really punishes ADCs for going into utility, which is what makes it a lose-lose. Congrats, you made the correct choice in itemizing for your situation, but you're now gimped. Logically, it's correct, but the ADC probably doesn't feel very happy they made the correct decision, because now their damage output (class identity) is crippled.

BluePolarizer2 votes

OK then that's your choice. If you don't feel Zed or WW are threats to you as an ADC, you can go for slot efficient damage items. If you think they're big enough threats and you deal enough damage, then you go for the slot inefficient niche item.

TG Wrath1 votes

This is the way it is in the current system and that's not bad. There should be a trade off in getting utility vs damage. But ADCs should not have their late game punished for going into utility; I object to

QSS + a single pickaxe so it has the active of scimitar, 40 damage and 35 MR and a cost around 2500 that is all. That would be understandable since that is far from an ideal item but would be worth getting against some enemies like WW and Malz.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Ya gut Vayne

Earl Eulrich1 votes

here´s a good detailed analysis: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/kIqG66Ao-detailed-preseason-feedback-part-1-items.. but yea, this preseason really made things a lot worse in terms of itemization. I also think they are way of currently...there are just no interessting item choices anymore. Last season i could decide to go BT to Bully my lane on an AD-carry, Use an ER+brutalizer+LW build to spike in the midgame and play morel ike an AD-caster than an AD-Carry (and maybe even go bruiser from there) or I´d just go the standard-crit-build to outscale anything. This season i can only go crit and then put some defense on top or not. it doesn´t really have any payoffs and it absolutly doesn´t alter the playstyle. It´s just the illusion of choice - and it´s boring.

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