Riot, can you just admit you dun goofed re: Ryze?

Arcane Azmadi··52 votes·3,337 views

This is the 3rd time in a row you've given soft reworks to a classic mage- Ryze has followed Zilean and Veigar. And all three changes have been RUBBISH, taking champion who were previously niche/situational/undertuned and just making them garbage. Ryze hurts particularly badly because he was once effectively the game's poster boy (alongside Katarina) but now his win rate has plummeted to less than 40%!

Riot, this is not working. These "reworks" are COMPLETELY failing in their stated objective of making the champions less binary because they're simply killing the champions dead. This is not something you an just shrug your shoulders about and say "eh, we'll give them some tuneups as we go". These high-profile fuck-ups should be your TOP priority at the moment.

75 Comments

SEKAI22 votes

Who did the rework for Yi and Sion?

I request for any and all future reworks, only give them to the guys behind those 2 magnificent reworks and nobody else.

Other guys clearly have no clues.

Arcane Azmadi17 votes

Agreed; the Sion rework is arguably the finest one Riot have ever done.

Zercie7 votes

The Viktor rework was pretty damn good too.

EmollientNut01 votes

Well to be fair with almost all of these all they really did was make their primary ability a skillshot and nerf the other 3 abilities they have. It's tough to even consciously call that a "rework."

DJ Di017 votes

They have never reverted reworks (unless it's #lcsbigplays Lee Sin) due to community backlash.

They didn't do it for Karma, they didn't do it for Sona; Nidalee, Zilean, Veigar. Good luck.

Rinky Dinky7 votes

They did it for katarina.

And morde.

And probably countless others that I wasnt around for.

Kaipop3 votes

True, but not ones that are already on live.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

The Lee Sin rework never went live?????

Kaipop1 votes

Exactly. I'm saying they didn't revert things like the karma rework even with lots of community backlash. They've only reverted ones that didn't yet go live like lee sin and katarina (recent katarina changes not the really old rework)

Jungle Lux God1 votes

The Morde rework on PBE wasn't even due to community backlash.

It was because of the rework making Morde too similar to other champions.

Morde players were actually fairly split on the rework. Some really liked it, some really hated it. The other reworks you mentioned weren't like that.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

You must not have been on the forums at the time.

Or Reddit.

Or anything holding pbe league discussion.

Abyssphere2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QLAkXIqo,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-05-23T09:25:25.057+0000)

They did it for katarina.

And morde.

And probably countless others that I wasnt around for.

The Kat rework never even hit the PBE though. They didn't revert it, just ... didn't go ahead with it. But that's quite similar to the Lee one I imagine.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Apparently the mordekaiser one wasn't enabled due to bugs or something.

qetzel4 votes

Firstly, the Ryze rework was done by the rework team, the other two by the live balance team.

The goals of the Veigar and Zilean reworks had nothing to do with their gameplay being binary. Veigar had a bullshit stun and Zilean had little counterplay beyond "Stay out of my range" in lane. Heck, he was 90% Pick-ban at worlds, wasn't he?

Secondly, Riot said they were looking into buffs for the PBE patch cycle 5.10. I think that means they will be out in 5.11 (but don't hold me or them to that!)

Thirdly, Veigar is sort of okay at the moment...

Rather than complaining, suggest changes to these champions that won't just bring the problems back - that means no AOE instant stun cage on Veigar, and you must keep some form of counterplay to ZIlean in lane.

Sightless665 votes

Secondly, Riot said they were looking into buffs for the PBE patch cycle 5.10.

They're on the PBE. They're pretty small, and aren't going to fix him by themselves. He'll still be bad. They're the first changes after the rework, so they aren't going to be the ones to fix him. Same way it worked for Zilean and Veigar, funnily enough. It's been a few patches since the last Zilean buffs, but he's not getting any buffs next patch. Same for Veigar.

Thirdly, Veigar is sort of okay at the moment...

Strong, comforting statement right there. Makes me feel a lot better about him.

Rather than complaining, suggest changes to these champions that won't just bring the problems back

For Veigar and Zilean, the solution is either going to be number buffs, which may work for Veigar but isn't going to create interesting gameplay for Zilean, or a more complete rework. They got into this problem because they only tried to rework the problematic elements of the kits without trying to modify the unsatisfying parts of the kits.

There is no reason why Zilean should have kept his terrible and boring passive through a rework. Replacing that should have been just as high a priority as changing his bombs. There are plenty of options for increasing his power if that isn't enough. They could afford to look into a new W and put a charge mechanic on his Q and/or lower the E CD, since that is pretty much what it functions as now that it no longer interacts with his ultimate. They could revert the E changes to give him some power back. They could buff his ultimate through a higher duration or lower cooldown. There are options, but Riot is being too cautious with their buffs. There is no reason for them to be waiting 5 or more patches to buff him when he's so bad.

Arcane Azmadi1 votes

{quoted}

Rather than complaining, suggest changes to these champions that won't just bring the problems back - that means no AOE instant stun cage on Veigar, and you must keep some form of counterplay to ZIlean in lane.

I suggested 2 ideas to fix Veigar- the big fix and the small fix:

The big fix was actually to completely replace Dark Matter, since that's the real reason losing the instant stun hurt him so badly- it's about 1/3 of his total damage in his combo, but it's LITERALLY completely impossible to land on a target that isn't CCd unless you lead it so heavily that they'd have to be completely oblivious to walk into it (admittedly quite a lot of players do). The real problem with Veigar isn't that he can't land his stun, it's that the REST of his kit is structured so that if he can't land his stun he does nothing.

The small fix was just to lift an idea from Smite- the Cripple CC, which doesn't actually inhibit movement the way a slow or root does, it just prevents all dashes, jumps and blinks. Basically make Event Horizon Cripple all units within it so they can still run around inside the cage to dodge his skillshots but can't dash or flash out of it (after all, what is an Event Horizon but the edge of a black hole?). This way he doesn't HAVE to land an instant stun with the edge of the cage and can actually use it the way it was intended.

I also suggested a fix for Zilean- rather than him only getting a double bomb detonation if he can land both bombs on a single target (which is almost impossible with the ridiculously finicky target selection mechanics the skill currently has) the 2nd bomb should detonate if it's struck by the explosion of the first one, with the stun only affecting units struck by both explosions.

As for Ryze, though, I got nothing.

qetzel1 votes

For Ryze I think he just needs some number buffs. He feels as though he could be strong but is just undertuned.

Veigar... I don't know... I think the more recent changes have put him into an alright state. Yes, having W hard/reallyhard/reallyreallyhard to hit isn't good, but even so, he is strong. A change to W would undoubtedly require compensation nerfs. For evidence http://champion.gg/champion/Veigar/Middle Take a look at the win rate against games played graphs. The old Veigar players still haven't learnt how to play him in the new way.

Your Zilean idea is interesting. Do you mean "in the explosion range" or "in the explosion". If you mean "Explosion range" it may be a little bit strong - that explosion range isn't small! If you mean "in the explosion" then that needs good timing. It would give Zilean a way to show more mechanical skill with a reward.

How would you respond to just reliability buffs. Better target selection or a slightly larger bomb detection radius?

Arcane Azmadi1 votes

I mean "in the explosion"- the explosion of the 1st bomb sets off the 2nd one. Of course, the 2nd one would have to have been out for at least 1 second to "prime" it before the 1st one goes off or it won't trigger- this is to prevent abusive cases of Zil throwing 1 bomb and Rewinding, then waiting until just before it explodes to throw the 2nd one into its blast radius for an instant stun. That way if he tags 2 different units with 2 bombs they'll both be stunned if they can't move away from each other in time, but they do have time to at least react.

Reliability buffs would be a start, though.

The Raidbringer4 votes

Honestly Ryze's new state isn't bad. The new attack animation and passive are definitely a step forward. He's just kinda clunky with the new Q being so pathetic.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

Yea, its really an underwhelming ability. "its now a poke" is an understatement, as it barely tickles.

Kaipop2 votes

I actually like the new Veigar after they buffed his stun again. But I agree with Zilean and Ryze. They just seem to have no impact in their games

Jungle Lux God2 votes

I can't say anything about Zilean or Veigar since I don't play them, but in Ryze's case he's either been pick/ban or unplayable.

His rework wasn't a bad rework by any means. Even though his rework reduced a lot of Ryze's power, It gave Ryze a lot more interesting gameplay than he had before. In other words, he can be good without being the cancer of top lane.

3TWarrior1 votes

well, ryze has always been a niche pick. He's a somewhat tanky mage with nearly limitless mana...he has to have SOME drawbacks...wait, he has crowdcontrol, built in 20% spell vamp, a new shield to keep him alive, literally the highest teamfight burst damage...

anything else i missed?

SEKAI7 votes

{quoted}

well, ryze has always been a niche pick. He's a somewhat tanky mage with nearly limitless mana...he has to have SOME drawbacks...wait, he has crowdcontrol, built in 20% spell vamp, a new shield to keep him alive, literally the highest teamfight burst damage...

anything else i missed?

He used to have a god awful early, rocky early mana management, short starting cc, all lock on spells, near 0 mobility and his short range to trade for his potential late game OPness.

Old Ryze was fine really, some tweaks here and there would have fixed him good, no need for a rework.

3TWarrior2 votes

well, I think he's actually better after the rework except for his lack of point and click Q on a longer cooldown, but 950 range gives him a bit of viability early so he can poke his primary lane opponents in mid and top

his damage now scales off of both mana and ability power so mage items are all viable on him, though he still prefers his mana items

Arcane Azmadi6 votes

So why does he know have the lowest win rate in the game by a MILE? You can't just write it off as "people are still getting used to him", it's already been almost a month!

Wobly2 votes

Two reasons:

  1. People really still are learning this champ. Lots of people have no idea how to control his passive, and it takes some time to get comfortable with his combo, even if you know how it is supposed to work. On top of that, nobody knows for sure what the optimal build / runes / masteries are right now.

  2. His laning phase is weak. His kill pressure is super low, because until level 11ish, he just lacks the damage to kill anyone during his super state. He can't finish you in 3 to 4 seconds, and then his damage drops off really hard. They're actually buffing the duration of his super mode in the next patch to 6 seconds at all ranks, which will finally give him some kill pressure in lane. Might need more though.

Sightless667 votes

People really still are learning this champ

Ryze is reaching the point where I think is a pretty small factor in his winrate. His winrate hasn't been increasing with time. People have been settling into item builds. His playrate has dropped through the floor as players new to him give up on him. People have had time to figure out his strong combos. If he's not improving with all that, then the majority of the reason is because he's weak.

His laning phase is weak.

Well, there's a good reason. He has a major weakness he can't compensate for. I completely believe that explanation. That said, I've tried him on the PBE, and I'm pretty sure he'll still be bad. I'd put money on a 3-4% winrate increase. It'll help, but he'll still be pretty bad. Still not going to be a good laner, but at least he won't automatically lose all trades. It's something I guess.

Wobly3 votes

I'm not disagreeing that he's weak, but I really do think he's still being played poorly. Another way to put it would be, if you're having trouble with Ryze, that doesn't mean you're bad. But overall, Ryze players right now are way less experienced with him than let's say, Rumble players are with their champion, and that means Ryze's statistics are going to suffer.

Even though he's been out for month, I've seen so many people saying "it's so hard to use your passive, I have to get to four stacks and then the enemy just stays away from me". Well don't wait til four stacks to engage then! Or people who don't know that his 5th stack cast resets cooldowns. Or people trying out experimental build / skill orders, some of which may be better than what's traditional but many of which are probably worse.

Basically, because he was weak on release, few people are playing him, and that means no conventional wisdom has formed about how to play him right. So people are still out there, experimenting and flailing around trying to figure him out.

Ryze definitely needs buffs, but he also needs new champion specific game knowledge that isn't common yet. Hopefully they keep buffing him until he's actually good again, and people come back to play him instead of giving up on him.

Z Statistic2 votes

How many months was it after Zed's release before people realized he was OP? I think it was 3 iirc.

Steelflame3 votes

Zed becoming good (along with other AD assassins) had nothing to do with champion changes. It was 100% the item/penetration reworks of S3 or S4 (can't remember which it was off the top of my mind) that made them good/abusive. Before then itemization for AD assassins was so bad as to be a joke.

Z Statistic2 votes

Zed was released in S3. Penetration changes were in the S2-S3 preseason.

Zed was released 11 months after those changes. The changes in the game after Zed were the support/jungle changes.

Sightless662 votes

Zed wasn't released in season 3. He was released exactly at the end of season 2, in v1.0.0.151. That literally was the last patch of season 2. The next patch, v1.0.0.152, was the beginning of the season 3 preseason. This was the patch where we saw the introduction of better AD caster itemization options and the penetration reworks.

Zed wasn't released 11 months after the penetration changes. He was released about a month before them.

Z Statistic1 votes

LoLwiki's syntax OP. I thought it said 2013.

Sightless661 votes

Fair enough. Misunderstandings happen. Can't fault you for that.

Sightless661 votes

Zed was released near the end of season 2, when AD casters in general suffered from poor itemization. The item reworks and the changes to the penetration formula at the beginning of preseason 3 gave him a significant boost. All AD casters were played at the time because Black Cleaver was OP (you may remember the League of Cleavers). Zed's playrate shot up, and he continued to be played after it was nerfed and the League of Cleavers ended.

Even if Zed was a good example of people being wrong about a champion's balance (Yasuo would work much better as an example, because people were really wrong about him on release), I still don't think it would be a good argument. Just because people were wrong about champions being weak in the past doesn't mean they are wrong now, particularly since there have been plenty of examples of people being right that champions were weak. This argument just doesn't sway me. Ryze seems weak and he's not showing the signs of improvement I'd expect if he was just misunderstood.

Rinky Dinky4 votes

Because people have zero clue how to build him

In a post I posted a week ago, you ryze mains are now quite literally ryze noobs.

You don't max Q anymore, you max E for starters. Shit, I would argue you max Q last.

AND DON'T BUY FROZEN HEART.

That Item is awful on him post rework. It is outclassed, and is mostly a waste of stats.

Stop building him as a bruiser. Sorry, but having rod as your only AP item is not cutting it anymore.

"What are you talking about, I know how to play ryze stfu"

http://champion.gg/champion/Ryze

His most frequent core build is trash. Look at that.

Maxing Q is bad because all it offers the least out of all of your spells until lategame. E is a better spell if only one target is next to the initial, and W is better per point because the duration and damage go up. (What do you mean max E wtf its a rng spell). No, it's not. That was reworked. E will currently hit the initial target, then bounce to up to 6 targets near the initial. Now, here is where this spell gets REALLY powerful. After hitting the secondary targets, all 6 shots will bounce BACK to the initial target, dealing even more damage per shot. Meaning landing an E on an enemy in a full minion wave will ensure they take at least 250-ish damage from E alone, plus the burst from W.

If you play right, you should easily be able to out sustain and out poke lane opponents whom do not directly counter you.

Maxing Q does not reduce the cooldown, increases the cost, and only gives 100 damage at rank 5, plus .5 mana scaling, compared to his E which gives 5X that amount if you land it in a full minion wave (which is stupid easy in lane).

Ryze is deceptively strong right now, and his only real problem is how bad his passive is until you get 2 points into ult.

You see the passive only lasts 3 seconds, but goes up for 1 second for every point into your ult. You ult also gives cdr, which makes your passive even more effective. The passive is being buffed to last for 6 seconds flat starting at level 1, meaning ryze will actually have a midgame compared to right now, where he HAS to farm until level 11. With this change, he should be able to start making plays at around level 8-9.

Now, laning on him is really easy and safe, you have zero reason to be losing trades if you play them right. You probably won't get any kills, as ryze lacks all in kill pressure early game. Sure, if you go all in at the right time you will send them running, but you will not be getting a kill unless they get greedy or where already low. Start Sapphire, Max E, then W, then Q. Back when you have enough gold for a tear. TP back to lane. Focus on farm. Whenever it is safe to do so, poke. Simply use your W while the enemy is standing in their minion wave, then E them. Watch as half their health bar disappears and they can't do anything about it other than stay away from their minions, meaning they cant farm unless they are ranged.

Now, Ryze will get shit on by champs such as irelia, because with how her kit works she can stun you when your passive procs, and then out sustain your weak damage afterwards (Her stun is 2 seconds, your passive at this point is 3. Big issue for your dps). He can also struggle against ranged champs, as catching them in a minion wave can be very hard.

But seriously, do not max Q. It is asking to get stomped in lane. His Q is a lategame spell right now. It does no damage early even when maxed, and is really just an awful lane spell in general.

E offers far more damage, and W offers far more utility. So, to answer your question, yes, one of the problems is you people suck shit at reworked ryze.

EDIT: I just found this forum post from a ryze main who actually repeated exactly what I just said, with some variations.

http://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/3697c0/my_first_impressions_of_the_updated_ryze_new/

Even has a video. Educate yourself. Stop bashing new Ryze so hard, he is not the whole problem

NemeBro4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QLAkXIqo,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-05-23T21:13:39.053+0000)

Stop building him as a bruiser. Sorry, but having rod as your only AP item is not cutting it anymore.

Then why play Ryze? His niche as a magic-damage mana-stacking bruiser is what made him unique. If he's just another generic APC, why not play one that brings more to the table?

New Ryze is shit.

Arcane Azmadi2 votes

Can't argue with that. People are continuing to build Ryze they same way they used to because that was the only thing that made him worthwhile. If that doesn't work any more, then he's more or less useless.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

You sheep just don't know how to adapt to his new playstyle.

So you stay left behind, bringing him down with your awful builds.

He can still stack mana, and he is still more tanky compared to other champs of his stature. He still has things unique to his kit, and is certainly still a tanky spell slinger like before. You just lack the patience and game knowledge to play him without riot holding your hand.

This is what happens when a no brain champ actually gets some depth. The people who played him because he had literally one build path and playstyle get angry and confused, and rage when that doesn't work anymore.

The Sion rework was the same way. People called him useless. People called him trash. "Spells are too easy to dodge. Just a generic bruiser".

And they got shat on and proved wrong in the end. This is no different.

Sadly because of sheep, Ryze will likely be over buffed, and then gutted after. The only buff he needs right now is the increased duration on his passive, and maybe some slight q buffs (Because that spell is shit early and midgame). And I'm sure he'll get that, but you noobs will want more and more. Nah, you'll cry until you can get away with your old toxic playstyle. And what happens then? They get gutted.

Edit: Waddaya know? The koreans actually put in the effort to learn how to play him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOB7vZ60h9I

No frozen heart.

E max.

Using his brain.

And guess what? He's being played as a bruiserish machine gun mage. Imagine that.

Fun Fest1 votes

I am pretty sure the 6s passive buff alone is enough to make Ryze over-the-top hilariously OP.

OxBaker1 votes

So for those in this thread using the old line of "people just need to learn how to play him", how many weeks will be enough? I hear this week after week so I'd like to know how long he should be left for?

Not that leaving him so that people will learn would actually work either at this point. Everyone has already given up on trying to figure Ryze out and he's now the 6th lowest played champ and still dropping.

Skias7 votes

He wasn't fine. He was suffocating when allowed to be decent because you couldnt trade with him. He had a 100% throughput on his damage.

Arcane Azmadi5 votes

Ryze was niche because he was only a 100% pick/ban when he was quite blatantly overpowered. Riot had already tuned down his flat numbers quite considerably so that he wasn't nearly as godlike as he was after his first major rework (remember when he could literally build straight tank after his Tear and RoA and do massive damage because of the mana scaling he got off Frozen Heart and Banshee's Veil?). He was a decent pick who had extra value against slippery targets thanks to his Rune Prison but wasn't a "no-brainer" pick.

Now he's an "if you choose him in his current state you have no brain" pick. (OK that's a bit harsh, but I couldn't resist the pun.)

3TWarrior1 votes

well, that is true, but the reason his win rate is low is because in the current mage meta, poke is much better than overall dps because if you do a lot of dps instead of a lot of poke, the opponents will focus you

take chogath, one of my favorites to play as a mage or support. All o fhis attacks are great at poking and his ult is almost guaranteed to shut someone down, so only the tanks can actively engage him and others have to focus him while he's off of cooldown, but since he's a poke tank/mage, he suits the mage state of "I should never be in range to let them hit me" making his tankiness even more valuable for his long cooldowns. Ryze also only has 1 crowd control whereas chogath has 2 very good ones. Zyra has 2 crowd controls and a lot of overall poke with plants acting as dps in her place. Heimer can ult for ranged dps poke while his turrets allow him to recover his poke cooldown in safety

etc.

kile1471 votes

I love Veigar and play him as one of my regular midlaners and I was a little (very) pissed about the rework. They took an itemization change (RIP DFG) that hurt him as an opportunity to nerf him, which felt really shitty. He was in a bad spot after that, but they did eventually get onto fixing him I am ok with where they have left him now. He's not quite the same as before and probably a little weaker, but he is a lot healthier for the game. I would love for them to give him a bit more love, but I'd still call him a successful rework.

Zilean needed a rework because his bombs were toxic to deal with, though I don't think they went about it the right way. A Sion level rework seems far more appropriate for him and I hope they get around to something like that someday, but until then he's at least healthier for the game. He certainly needs buffs in his current state though. I would say that Ryze was the most deserving of those three of the rework. Ryze was a late game champ who would bully melees out of lane when strong, meaning he would always scale into late game. The data says he could use buffs certainly, but given his previous state Riot is probably hesitant to do that, and they are probably going to wait a patch or two before handing him buffs.

Dr Poro1 votes

Ryze definitely needs a buff. He's so weak now that even when he triggers his passive, most melee champs still simply rape him. During the early game, he can't even poke with his Q because it's easy to stay behind minions. All you have are W and E that cost a shitload of mana for the damage it deals. The old Ryze used to be really good against melees (probably too good, which is why his Q got reworked) but the current ryze sucks against everything. Ryze always sucked vs low range, now he just sucks vs long range and short range.

Wyrmblade1 votes

To be honest, I really like the Ryze rework, the skillshot isn't too hard to hit, the E hits like a truck and he just feels powerful without being complicated. I think he just needs some small buffs and for more people to try him out with other lanes and builds.

Magic Mo1 votes

I got Triumphant Ryze skin.

Now I wanna actually be able to play the champion without being called a troll.

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