Boards›Gameplay

Pro LoL is so boring BECAUSE #LCSbigplays

Arcane Azmadi··260 votes·13,186 views

Riot, you and I need to have a little talk.

I'm sure you've heard the meme "because #LCSbigplays"- the idea that you're deliberately allowing flashier, high-mobility champions like Zed, Rek'Sai, Lee Sin etc to crowd out the rest of the champions because it makes for better highlight reels. Now, I don't really believe that's true, but if by some devilish chance it IS influencing your balance decisions I need to tell you: cut it out, because it's having the opposite effect.

The LCS has literally almost never been so boring, except maybe the Season 4 playoffs and Worlds where you chose a particularly bad patch to freeze the balance on (Alistar and Zilean banned every game!!!). "Big plays" don't interest me. I either watch the pick/ban phase of a game or just look at the champ selections afterwards on leaguepedia afterwards and if I don't see at least ONE interesting pick, SOMETHING other than the everpresent Maokai/Zed/Lee Sin/Jarvan/Vi/Graves/Corki/Annie/Irelia/Rek'Sai/Kennen/Rumble/LeBlanc/Nidalee/Leona/Thresh/Lissandra/Ahri/Janna/Lulu/Sivir/Morgana/Gnar, I just skip it. I don't CARE what plays are made in the game, I'm just bored shitless of seeing the same champs over and over and over and over again.

You talk a lot about your desire to promote champion diversity, but words are wind and I don't think you're really making a serious effort to put your money where your mouth is. Apart from the competative deaths of Elise and (recently) Kassadin, almost nothing is changing. The same champs are being pulled out over and over again and you nearly outright REFUSE to touch the main offenders. Take Thresh for example. Do you know that, since his release at the beginning of 2013, there has not been even a SINGLE PERIOD in competative LoL history that Thresh has not been a strong support pick? Ever? He has NEVER been out of fashion. Meanwhile, you spend time nerfing Sona. Sona for fuck's sake! Miss Fortune, Varus and Ashe remain absolute joke picks while Corki, Ezreal and Graves keep coming back into fashion again and again. Any mid laner who doesn't have insane mobility and burst potential or incredible ranged poke and wave clear might as well not exist. Time and again the jungle has been defined exclusively by who ganks the best. The less said about top lane, the better.

If you want people to watch the LCS, the answer is NOT "#LCSbigplays". The answer is diversity. For FUCK'S sake, nerf a few champions, buff a few others, even if it ends up unbalancing a few then at least it's not more stagnation. It's not like your game is perfectly balanced and you don't dare make any major changes for fear of causing a collapse anyway. Hell, say you gut the living shit out of Zed, LeBlanc and Ahri (I think Talon is safe enough, he still hasn't recovered from the last thing you did to him), what do you suppose the consequences of that would be? Might we see the return of Brand, Malzahar, Vladimir, Lux, Galio and Heimerdinger, as well as Viktor not losing every game he's picked in? I'd call that an acceptable trade. Disembowel Thresh, Janna and Leona, maybe Soraka will see some more play (not Sona though, that would require Nami to not be superior to her in every regard first). Kill Lee Sin, Rek'Sai, Vi and add a few more kicks to Jarvan- would we see Amumu, ZAC, Shyvana, Fiddlesticks, Volibear, Xin Zhao and Udyr? No way of knowing unless you try.

In short, grow some balls and stop letting the game stagnate in the name of #LCSbigplays. Because currently all I'm seeing is #LCSbigyawns.

220 Comments

Knight SoIaire 54 votes

i thiink that riot's policy fails because they want to always get the win win out of everything and this is where stuff backfires veigar compensated for dfg loss and also increased counterplay, backfired becuase lack of counterplay was the only thing that even made his kit usable so no matter how much compensation you give its crap

ahri compensated for dfg and redesigned playstyle, backfired becuase she became op

kassadin nerfed but at the same time kept viable, backfired because kassadins ballance is explosive, either he goes up or he goes op

zed nerfed but still kept flashy and sexy, backfired because zed gets op because of that flashyness and all the gimmicks it pulls with itself like dodging, insane safety etc

diversity increased but toxicity decreased, backfiredd becuase they consider anything that is unique and i mean trully unique playstyle toxic since some champions cant handle it (basic counterpicking)

so owerall they try to kill to many birds with one stone like when they are buffing and nerfing at the same time, there is no predicting the outcome, or when they nerf with keeping stuff op in mind, it just cant work the intended way

and are completly unable to understand that every coin has 2 sides, if we have diversity then we get to make realy op teamcomps thanks to synergy, since that diversity allows for that if we get lcs big plays we lose diversity and make this game mord like call of duty (only reflex matters)

riot just doesnt allow that concept to exist, they think that they can basicaly make 120 champions viable unique and completly remove all the problems associated with that

SEKAI7 votes

10/10 I agree, there is nothing more needs to be said.

Kuroi8613 votes

if we get lcs big plays we lose diversity and make this game mord like call of duty (only reflex matters)

This, I believe is where people lose their minds over. League is much more about twitch reflex than pure strategic positioning. There is considerable potential for strategy, but that requires a full team dedicated to that ideal and putting together a proper team comp.
For all the people that ask why LoL isn't more strategical, it's actually pretty simple. Dota 2 already fills that niche and LoL really doesn't need any more reasons for people to compare the two. Now, League could use a little more strategic balancing, but I don't think we're talking big numbers, more like little love taps to more strategic champs and a bit more of a spotlight on those sort of comps.

riot just doesnt allow that concept to exist, they think that they can basicaly make 120 champions viable unique and completly remove all the problems associated with that

Outside of creating different divisions dedicated to different playstyles all together, no clue.

i thiink that riot's policy fails because they want to always get the win win out of everything and this is where stuff backfires

Honestly, they don't have the best policy, but I certainly feel they are doing better than they were. There is always more to learn, but the fact that we've not needed hot-fix patches in a long time says something. The fact that we've not seen things like release Xin, LB or TF in a long time is a good thing I think. It means they are better learning where they want to go with the game and how to better balance around that.

SEKAI3 votes

Problem is we have 80% of the roster geared for more strategic approach with things such as team comp, counterpick/build/play, synergies etc then 20% geared for all around generalist button mash twitch reflex action shooter, and Riot is balancing the game around that 20%.

See the problem?

So either they make up their mind and do what this game is supposed to be about, or start a new game instead of ruining it for those who enjoyed 80% of the entire game. This isn't rocket science.

When people are reminiscing S2 and praisng how good the balance was when IT WASN'T GREAT AT ALL, then you know what is very wrong in this game right now, in Season f'ing 5.

I may sound a little angry in this post, but its not towards you dw.

Jamaree29 votes

Diversity yes, but with how the game works, it literally isn't possible, the counters to champions aren't hard enough, nerf the top ten, a new top ten comes up. Hell, when Jarvan and Lee Sin get nerfs, people will just continue the circle about how Sejunai is OP most likely.

Arcane Azmadi48 votes

At least we'd have a new top 10! That's my entire point! I am SICK of the pro game at the moment because it's the same few games being played over and over again.

I'm not barracking for perfect balance; that's a foolish pipe dream. I just want a refreshed meta, not the same shit we've been stuck on for way, WAY too long. Hell, I remember when Garen was a popular pick during the Season 1 championship series! Those were the days...

qetzel31 votes

What about Kennen? That is his point. It's been, what, three weeks of Kennen and already he is on your list of "ever present" champion.

Peoplw will start complaining about Hecarim, Victor and Karthus soon.

SmokingPuffin10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcane Azmadi,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HpuZ0Ui3,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-03-08T11:52:50.064+0000)

At least we'd have a new top 10! That's my entire point! I am SICK of the pro game at the moment because it's the same few games being played over and over again.

I'm not barracking for perfect balance; that's a foolish pipe dream. I just want a refreshed meta, not the same shit we've been stuck on for way, WAY too long. Hell, I remember when Garen was a popular pick during the Season 1 championship series! Those were the days...

The meta today is very different than it was 6 months ago. Look at the contested picks from LCS today. Compare that list to what was played at S4 worlds.

Seen any of these lately? Alistar Zilean Ryze Khazix Lucian Twitch Yasuo Syndra

All were contested in at least 25% of games at worlds. Just how often are you expecting a total shakeup of the meta?

JevelFaithful8 votes

I think his point is that last6 months ago, we saw zed,lee , thresh, maokai, leblanc every games. And we still do (I think, I didn't really watch league 6 months ago)! While it's ok for a champion to have the right profile for competitive play (that's why they are top tier), it gets tiresome when every game we see lee sin Q in, ward jump, ult someone back. Every game, every gank, always! Or when the other 2 alternative to lee do pretty much the same gig. It's not so much that the champions don't change, but the game never ever change. Always support-CC leading to long range dash-jump ins leading to CC leading to kill. Always, Doesn't matter if it's Leona, thresh, sona or Nami. Doesn't matter if it's Corki, graves, Lucian or Kalista. Or if it's J4, Vi, Lee... Are there any other junglers? When was the last time we saw someone else in there for more than 1 games.

Also that once a meta has settled, it's there every game. I would tend to agree that in their goal to make champions not have hard counters and keep the game interesting by squishing cheese tactics, there is no reaosn to introduce variety between games : there is essentially 1-2 relatively similar tactics that work (snowbally-assasssin pick or teamfight comps, very rarely we see a push comp work, and I think riot tries to nerf them when they rise) and there is no reason to play more than 3 champions because there is no hard counter. Lucian will work every time because no one is there to counter him, Kalista is never bad. Zed is never bad. Leblanc is rarely bad. You see where I'm going.

LeeDark15 votes

What total shakeup of the meta? Ali and Zilean were flukes because of a bad balance patch. Kha'zix was a dominant force in the jungle from release until now, when he finally got nerfed enough to stop seeing pro play. Yasuo was a fairly new champion, ridiculously overtuned, and continually nerfed until they realized he isn't playable. Twitch will be back, I guarantee it, just like nerfing Lucian and buffing the midgame brought back perennial favorites Corki and Graves. Ryze is up for a rework, largely because of his oppressive performance last year, and Syndra showed the same unhealthiness without being someone who is "supposed to be" unhealthy.

That's not shaking up the meta. The meta is still assassins, split-pushing, and ganky early game junglers.

manbearswine13 votes

{quoted}

Diversity yes, but with how the game works, it literally isn't possible, the counters to champions aren't hard enough, nerf the top ten, a new top ten comes up. Hell, when Jarvan and Lee Sin get nerfs, people will just continue the circle about how Sejunai is OP most likely.

You're wrong. Zed op? Hmmmm,what could we do here? Oh I know,quick! someone nerf kayle! They are so insistent on the meta that every time something shows up to push it the other way,they nerf that instead(Yeah I'm sure zilean was just op in general right? not something specific against assassins) Don't get me wrong,these guys were op because they countered assassins but played with those on their own team,but riot should've realized the problem(for the most part) didn't lie in kayle/zilean,but in the assassins they countered,which I'm guessing they did,and didn't care much for it.

As far as hard counters go,look at dota,dota both has these hard countered and a better model to sustain a game with them(all heroes available to everyone,cause you know,if picks are that important you can't have people having only portions of the hero pool,also heroes aren't locked to certain lanes and you have tp scrolls/runes/smoke for early rotations to help if someone gets into a nasty matchup,whereas in lol if you are stuck against yasuo on a skillshot reliant champion,you are just fucked),and even then you generally have ~20 picks which are highly contested and everyone else is rarely picked,but guess what,these guys rotate,because valve didn't decide "well this is league of mobility and assassins now,and forever,don't like that? go fuck yourself."-and that's the real problem,not that something is op,but that these champion are all the same,how many op tank junglers have you seen in the past year? how many op mobile+damage junglers have you seen(hint:all of them)?

Hell,I'm ~95% sure that if after the tank jungler changes if any of them sees serious competitive play that guy will get kicked out of it one patch later,then when asked about it they will respond "look his winrate is fine,solo q isn't competitive hurr durr,you are all idiots and are stupid enough to buy this retarded excuse".

SmokingPuffin1 votes

DotA tunnels harder on the top heroes than League does. Check the stats from TI2014:

http://dotaflame.com/tournament/heroes/600

12 heroes were contested in more than half the games at the event.

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Riot_-_World_Championship_2014/Scoreboards/Overview

For League's world championship event, only 10 were. Even this number is high for League -- as you mentioned, this was the silly patch where Alistar and Zilean were broken.

manbearswine11 votes

{quoted}

DotA tunnels harder on the top heroes than League does. Check the stats from TI2014:

http://dotaflame.com/tournament/heroes/600

12 heroes were contested in more than half the games at the event.

that's because dota has 10 bans and 10 picks,whereas league has 6 bans and 10 picks

http://lol.gamepedia.com/Riot_-_World_Championship_2014/Scoreboards/Overview

For League's world championship event, only 10 were. Even this number is high for League -- as you mentioned, this was the silly patch where Alistar and Zilean were broken.

at the end of the day lol narrows down harder on picks,slightly,but still,also it's important to note that in dota almost every hero got picked at least once,whereas in lol half of them are completely untouched,oh,and don't expect them to get buffed either,instead,they will buff those who already see play.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

{quoted}

that's because dota has 10 bans and 10 picks,whereas league has 6 bans and 10 picks

DotA bans 4 and 5 are not generally used on power bans. They're tactical in nature, aimed at removing ways to contest your team's strategy.

The extra bans do not significantly contribute to the top 10 hero contest rates -- the staple heroes are picked before those bans can address them.

at the end of the day lol narrows down harder on picks,slightly

Every time I've done the analysis, or read someone else's analysis, the conclusion has been that top heroes in DotA are more contested than top heroes in League.

but still,also it's important to note that in dota almost every hero got picked at least once,whereas in lol half of them are completely untouched,oh,and don't expect them to get buffed either,instead,they will buff those who already see play.

No question here. DotA does a good job of making niche heroes that are occasionally useful for countering particular heroes or strategies. League has hardly any champion designs aimed at solving niche problems.

VDc0zCqe0w4 votes

{quoted}

No question here. DotA does a good job of making niche heroes that are occasionally useful for countering particular heroes or strategies. League has hardly any champion designs aimed at solving niche problems.

wich makes anything else you said completely useless to the discussion

i don't care if Mirana is picked and banned 18239589384598 times, if Lina has a niche spot that makes her worthy of being picked and/or banned, that's more than enough

it's, for example, Brand, worthy of being picked and/or banned?

no he isn't, and this is the core problem

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

wich makes anything else you said completely useless to the discussion

i don't care if Mirana is picked and banned 18239589384598 times, if Lina has a niche spot that makes her worthy of being picked and/or banned, that's more than enough

it's, for example, Brand, worthy of being picked and/or banned?

no he isn't, and this is the core problem

Nah,there's situational,and there's too god damn situational(which is exactly why lina ate so many buffs since then),the difference between being completely not viable and being a viable pick in 1/100 games is very minor.

I mean think about it,if brand were a viable pick in 1/100 games,in 4/500 your pick will be made before you are aware of that(as I doubt you'll be waiting for last second to trade),and in 1/500 he will still be only slightly better and you'll be still better off with something meta which you are more experienced on.

VDc0zCqe0w5 votes

{quoted}

Nah,there's situational,and there's too god damn situational(which is exactly why lina ate so many buffs since then),the difference between being completely not viable and being a viable pick in 1/100 games is very minor.

I mean think about it,if brand were a viable pick in 1/100 games,in 4/500 your pick will be made before you are aware of that(as I doubt you'll be waiting for last second to trade),and in 1/500 he will still be only slightly better and you'll be still better off with something meta which you are more experienced on.

duh, i just made a random example cos i love her xD

but still as you said, she actually got buffed, unless unplayed champs in LoL wich stay unplayed without having a single buff in months if not years (and when people ask why don't they get buffs, they spew some random bullshit like "high winrate", "he/she would be too unhealthy", "needs more room for counterplay" and other idiocy like this

Retillin22 votes

It comes down to safety. Pros pick champions that are safe. Why pick Ashe when you can pick Kalista to engage just as well. Add in Kalista's mobility and her sentinels, it's really hard to punish her for mistakes. Nid/Rek/Lee in the jungle are all REALLY safe. If they are caught out, they have escapes to get to freedom. Same thing with midlane (Zed/Ahri/LB). Riot has decided that they wish for hyper reflexes and flashy moves more than thoughtful positioning and planning. It's their game, but I think they are really killing smart thought out plays in favour of flashy plays. But again, it's for a TV show.

Dengeden1 votes

Dude, have you ever played against a bad Zed, Ahri or LB? Positioning is so freaking vital with and against them.

Kuroi866 votes

Ahri yes, Zed and LB have a little more forgiveness.

Dengeden1 votes

In the sense that they can still kill your equally idiotic team mates? I guess.

Kuroi863 votes

Ahri's mobility is on a significantly longer cooldown. LB and Zed don't have to wait quite as long, though if they are smart they are saving their escape just in case the Teemo hits the fan.

Dengeden1 votes

Look guy, Ahri's Q is on a 7 sec cooldown and she doesn't need to get close, like Zed and LB do. But that's neither here nor there, you obviously want some way to kill these two, which you dont need to do...

Kuroi863 votes

Oh crap I spaced that buff lol, I was only thinking of her ult. xD Sorry about that.

But you're right, for the most part assassins can be shut out simply by denying them kills. Zed to a degree can overcome this simply by grace of his AD scaling and good wave clear, though he does still fall a little behind in comparison.

Nightshade322619 votes

Incoming opinion that very few (if any) will agree with. You have been warned.

I think the entire game is beyond redemption at this point:

-Balance is trash -Diversity is non-existant -Lore is a laughable joke -Riot's interaction with the community is sub-par at best -The business model is very anti-consumer -Many champions don't seem to have an identity or Riot doesn't know what they should be -Only the art department seems to know what they are doing (though after the recent Ahri, Katarina and Tristana splash's, I'm not so sure anymore)

In my personal opinion, only a complete and total rework of the ENTIRE game can save it. Basically, League of Legends 2 needs to be made.

-An entirely new engine the game is built on and runs on needs to be used -Every champion needs a complete and total rework from the ground up (kits, models and artwork) -Every item needs to be reworked to fit the new model Riot decides to use -A bunch of other stuff would need removing or changing to better fit the new LoL

I know some people might say that idea is ridiculous, but I'm not convinced it is so out of the question. I'm really of the opinion that drastic action is needed because I don't think the game can survive on the route Riot is taking it. They are attempting to adapt a new concept to a game that wasn't designed for it and it isn't working.

That is just my opinion on the matter.

Anidan10 votes

I'll respect your opinion as it is, but I will defend, if nobody else on Riot, the art team. They don't always hit gold, but dammit at least they try. Not only that, they tend to communicate the best of the Riot branches. I have respect for the art team, even if they don't always strike everything exactly right.

The rest I'll let you have, though. Partly because I agree, and partly because it's an opinion and not worth getting upset over.

Miku Lv9915 votes

I agree. I got so tired of LCS since its the same champions over and over and I've pretty much given up on a lot of my favorite champions even getting 1 game played in the entire LCS.

IcyPepper14 votes

implying Amumu plays aren't flash as fuck

Rito plz, let other flashy champions have the spotlight.

Tho Karthus really rocked that C9 vs TIP match. We need more of that shit, and champions kicking Zed's ass like that. So satisfying.

John Berserk10 votes

When it comes to balance influences, I agree, Riot should not balance the game based on the minority (professional players).

When it comes to professional champion picks, what else could you really expect? EVERY competitive game has a small roster of viable picks to choose from, usually no more than half of the available roster. The same goes for League. Thats kind of just how things work out, especially when you take into account the size of League's roster. That's a LOT of Champions to get at about the same power level.

These professional players are not playing to be flashy, or to be cool or attract fans or make the #LC$BigPlays, they're playing to win, because this is their job. They can't afford to try and innovate every game, or just play who they think is fun, because they might not lead them to a win.

If you want more diversity in picks, I suggest not looking to professional players of any game, because all you're ever going to find 99% of the time is the same small percentage of characters chosen because they're recognized as strong, and they will lead to wins.

Not to say I don't enjoy seeing more diverse picks in the LCS, but I come in to each game knowing the small pool of champs that will be chosen, and instead of hoping for anything different, I focus on how each team builds their individual team, and plays to its strengths. The strategies and execution of how a team wins is more exciting than the champion picks to me personally. Why else would I bother watching professionals if not to learn these sorts of things?

JevelFaithful4 votes

Amen. A good balanced game should not be all about the pros. There should be other measures. Ever heard of the Jedi Curve in Magic? It'S the theorical power a card can have for a given cost. Clearly defined. I'm pretty sure Riot has no such things, yet I think this is a vital tool for a balanced game.

If you want more diversity in picks, I suggest not looking to professional players of any game, because all you're ever going to find 99% of the time is the same small percentage of characters chosen because they're recognized as strong, and they will lead to wins.

Just to point out a little something concerning this. USF4 is probably the closest game to balance and has probably very close to 50% of the (very impressive) roster played in tournaments. Of course, as a fighting game, surprise, unfamiliarity and mindgames can actually turn things around. A moba has no chance of ever imitating that. But that's just to point out that some games are VERY diverse even at pro level.

Talamare9 votes

It became a meme because Riot used it themselves

They were like "and its okay that he keeps this because it allows lcs big plays to happen more frequently"

or some shit along those lines

KaisadiIIa5 votes

Ghostcrawler (iirc) said something like "Mobility is fun, so we'll keep adding mobility to everything". That's RIOT philosophy.

Gingivits9 votes

I wouldn't mind seeing an Urgot super anti-carry bottom again. I thought it was more fun to see an Urgot pull off magical plays instead of a Thresh in every game since the existence of Thresh because Urgot has almost no mobility.

KING OF MASKS9 votes

Amumu Zac Shyvana Fiddlesticks Volibear XinZhao Udyr Soraka Brand Malzahar Vladimir Lux Galio Heimerdinger Viktor

Nautilus: Do you hear them calling?

cFlame9 votes

Well its completely pointless to even communicate with Riot, they think that this section of the boards is pretty much pointless to look at unless it has to do with a champion they are very currently reworking on. Riot will only make changes if they get something out of it, they don't need to worry about game balance anymore, too many people play this game and it doesn't cost money to play it, so they will not lose players.

Qazgir8 votes

Rito should get Icefrog to teach their balance team so that they can make every champ viable.

Silmaril7 votes

I don't think it's completely fair to blame the balance team for low diversity. The LCS meta is its own unique beast that's pretty different from solo Q. For example, I think ADC's are more or less completely balanced right now. There's still a little room for improvement, Ashe and Ezreal are a bit weak, Graves is a little on the strong side, but overall the solo Q balance for the class is fine (which is what they should be balancing for anyways.) Anybody could play Varus/MF/Kog'maw and wreck solo Q pretty easily, but since LCS players almost always value burst and safety, especially in such an important role, which is why you're always going to see the carries who offer that, and only deviate from them if you have a very specific team comp in mind (like protect the Kog'maw). If you gave MF the buffs she would need to be pick over a carry with an escape in LCS, she'd be pick/ban in solo Q, almost guaranteed, because she would have to bring a ton to the table just to sacrifice that dash.

Basically, if Riot balanced for niche picks in the LCS, they'd probably ruin their game for the majority of players. Most of the LC$BIGPLAYS champs aren't all that great in a solo Q environment anyways. Lee Sin/Zed/Thresh/whoever else is making the flashy plays of the week are all more or less balanced in solo Q (though whether they are frustrating to fight or overly popular is another issue). I mean, freaking Elise still gets some time to bask in the glorious rays of the BIGPLAYS deities, and we all know how "good" she is.

And yes, I'm sick of seeing Zed vs Ahri, J4 vs Lee Sin and Gnar vs Lissandra every game that they're open, but their LCS popularity doesn't affect how good they are when going against baddies like me. I just don't watch LCS, problem solved. But I would much rather have a fair and varied solo Q environment and a bland stagnant professional scene, than a situation where the LCS was extremely varied, but actual balance was poor for the average player (which is what happens when they try to balance around LCS. Case in point, Veigar.) That's how DotA2 runs things, and it's less fun for it. You know how Urgot is, well, Urgot, sitting at around a 41-42% winrate? There are 12 champions with lower winrates than him in DotA2. And yeah, every champion is viable at a professional level there, but when there are 30 champions who don't even have a 45% winrate in solo Q (compared to LoL's 9-10) and nobody plays any of them because of it, the game stagnates for the 99.9% of the population who happen to be not pros.

Hasztalan210 votes

{quoted}

And yes, I'm sick of seeing Zed vs Ahri, J4 vs Lee Sin and Gnar vs Lissandra every game that they're open, but their LCS popularity doesn't affect how good they are when going against baddies like me. I just don't watch LCS, problem solved. But I would much rather have a fair and varied solo Q environment and a bland stagnant professional scene, than a situation where the LCS was extremely varied, but actual balance was poor for the average player (which is what happens when they try to balance around LCS. Case in point, Veigar.) That's how DotA2 runs things, and it's less fun for it. You know how Urgot is, well, Urgot, sitting at around a 41-42% winrate? There are 12 champions with lower winrates than him in DotA2. And yeah, every champion is viable at a professional level there, but when there are 30 champions who don't even have a 45% winrate in solo Q (compared to LoL's 9-10) and nobody plays any of them because of it, the game stagnates for the 99.9% of the population who happen to be not pros.

Comments like this just makes me wonnder if any of u played d2. Even in pubs tehre are a vast amount of herod ifferences and true there are certain heroes with 40%> winrate BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IS THEY ARE NOT SITTING AT 40> BECAUSE THEY ARE WEAK BUT RATHER THEY ARE DIFFICOULT TO USE OR BETTER SUITS THE COMPETITIVE ENVIROMENT.

That is my friend the difference here. Also balancing for niche picks? Who the fuck asked for that? we just ask that they start bugffing weak and useless champs so tehy actually have impact and can show something which makes them worth pickibng instead of theese swiss army knife champs who does everything and does everything BETTER than the elder champs.

This type of balance works in dota2,smite , bloodline and to a certain extend strife as well. It would work with league as well beleive me.

VDc0zCqe0w7 votes

{quoted}

You know how Urgot is, well, Urgot, sitting at around a 41-42% winrate? There are 12 champions with lower winrates than him in DotA2. And yeah, every champion is viable at a professional level there, but when there are 30 champions who don't even have a 45% winrate in solo Q (compared to LoL's 9-10) and nobody plays any of them because of it, the game stagnates for the 99.9% of the population who happen to be not pros.

dude has never played dota and spawns random words looking at pointless winrates, lol

manbearswine4 votes

{quoted}

You know how Urgot is, well, Urgot, sitting at around a 41-42% winrate? There are 12 champions with lower winrates than him in DotA2. And yeah, every champion is viable at a professional level there, but when there are 30 champions who don't even have a 45% winrate in solo Q (compared to LoL's 9-10) and nobody plays any of them because of it, the game stagnates for the 99.9% of the population who happen to be not pros.

dude has never played dota and spawns random words looking at pointless winrates, lol

better buff earth spirit

warpenguin5557 votes

I watched 1 game... then I said screw this im playing myself

EviIGreenRanger7 votes

LSC never been so boring before. I watch only the pick/ban phase or take a peek during game to see what champions they're playing and nearly every game it's the same boring champions that's always picked. If there's a interesting pick then i may watch it.

Anyone remember that one LCS game where a team picked Poppy top vs Mundo and the poppy won?! That's one of the most enjoyable games i've watched, everyone was losing their minds. Then Poppy got banned next game. :

2pudge1cup6 votes

As long as people keep watching the pro games, it won't change.

Frankly I don't even want there to be a new top 10 because that just is a bandage over the problem.

The game needs more counters and more defined niches. Way too many champs have their designs based around being good at everything that they'll crowd everyone else out. That's the root of the problem. The generalists need reworks - pretty much all of them. The niche champs need to remain the same. Unfortunately riot has it ass backwards and keeps reworking niche champs into generalists.

junglerboy166 votes

All of my yes! I used to be a huge LCS fan, but now I only bother to watch maybe one or two matches right after a new patch goes live on the Pro server, and after that it goes stale again fast. Even though I hate to say it, I've even started watch DotA 2 pro games instead because for all the weirdness of that game (at least as a League player myself) it is hardly ever stale, even at the pro level with almost as many heroes as League has champions and equally or more so flashy and amazing plays.

Quepha6 votes

i'm pretty sure riot has admitted they're ok with certain champions being strong because they're fun to watch

RanmanReborn5 votes

I haven't watched an LCS game in at least a year and won't consider watching it in the future. I started playing this game because I ENJOYED playing it, but over the course of the past year-and-a-half (roughly), I've seen constant and questionable design decisions, from removing lore to asinine balance changes. It's become quite apparent that Riot has placed their emphasis around this esports horseshit and less around making healthy gameplay. On top of adding that dumbfuck Ghostcrawler (why in god's name would you hire him after what he did to WoW) and the balance team either purposefully screwing this game for the LCS, or not knowing what they're doing, and I've just decided that I refuse to watch it.

Fuck the LCS. It itself hasn't ruined this game, but Riot's greed and biases towards it have.

SavagePenetrator3 votes

This season has the most diverse champion pool yet, and we are only halfway through (nearly). Chill out already, they play to win, no team is going to pick some purely to please you with their random pick.

SEKAI17 votes

That's precisely why the balance is in a mess right now because you have champs that are clearly just better and the others who you call "random pick" are just worse.

In a perfect and ideal situation, all champs should have its uses and condition to be useful, be it strategy, team composition, certain situation or game phase etc where he/she shines, and the company should try to achieve a balance scene that is the closest to the ideal case. Is LoL near or remotely close to that?

Nope.

Salt Miner 49 Er1 votes

I find it greatly ironic because League always promoted more champion diversity in competitive play than any other MOBA.

Hasztalan211 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monkey Trouble,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HpuZ0Ui3,comment-id=0020,timestamp=2015-03-08T20:38:12.815+0000)

I find it greatly ironic because League always promoted more champion diversity in competitive play than any other MOBA.

Ye they promote it theoretically and enforce the same champpol realistically.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Arcane Azmadi

Just a little something you seem to have forgotten, Riot...
Gameplay29 comments
107
votes
Crippling design flaw in Jhin's Curtain Call
Gameplay93 comments
102
votes
Hey Riot, when are you going to visually rework Jax?
Concepts & Creations30 comments
60
votes
Riot, can you just admit you dun goofed re: Ryze?
Gameplay75 comments
52
votes
Riot's biggest blunder of World 2019.
Esports36 comments
33
votes
Regarding the proposed Zeke's Herald remake...
Gameplay12 comments
22
votes