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Regarding the proposed Zeke's Herald remake...

Arcane Azmadi··22 votes·1,617 views
6/29 PBE Update

Don't do it. Just don't. At least don't convert Zeke's Herald into this new tanky AP support nonsense item. If you don't want to retain the "AD aura"-type item, then delete it and create a new one, but don't remake it into something that has absolutely nothing whatsoever in common with any previous form of it (man, I still miss Stark's Fervor) and also has needlessly-complicated mechanics.

Personally, I think the proposed item itself is pretty dumb. You turn yourself into Kalista-lite, tying yourself to an ally and giving you both timed boosts of massive power (50% crit strike and 20% AP for 6 seconds) that occur more often in combat as long as you remain joined at the hip. The problem is twofold: firstly, balancing it is going to be a logistical nightmare, resulting in yet another case of a support item that will be bought by everyone when it's provably overpowered and completely ignored by everyone when it's not (like the Ardent Censer and the Ohmwrecker). Secondly, the item is just not going to be valuable to the support except as a mildly convenient source of HP, AR and CDR. What is a support going to do with a 50% crit bonus and a 20% AP bonus? Despite everything they've tried, Riot just don't seem to get that supports don't get much AP (not good supports anyway, not unless the game goes up to 60 minutes). Giving supports AP scaling on their utility, releasing items like Twin Shadows, Frost Queen's Claim and Ardent Censer- none of it matters because (good) supports will ALWAYS just get the everpresent Sightstone and occasionally Mikael's Crucible before buying cost-effective tank and countless wards, because supports still don't get to buy luxury items.

But that's all beside the point. The point is, why is this being done to Zeke's Herald? Originally the item was called Stark's Fervor and was like an AD equivalent to Abyssal Scepter- it gave an AS, LS and HP5/sec aura to allies and a -20 AR debuff to nearby enemies. Then they toned it down to just an AS and LS aura and gave it CDR and renamed it Zeke's Herald. Then they removed the AS altogether and made it an AD aura instead. Now they're basically completely scrapping the item and replacing it with something that has absolutely no similarities to any prior version at all. Hell, now it's an AP item rather than an AD item (it was previously the ONLY AD support item)! Why not just put it away with all the other removed items like Force of Nature and Atma's Impaler and create an all-new item with a new name and a sleek new icon instead of clinging pointlessly to the rather obsolete red flag? There's no point in continuing to call the item 'Zeke's Herald' because it isn't Zeke's Herald any more.

12 Comments

FantasySniper9 votes

Opinions about how it "isn't sticking to its roots" aside, I've got to agree here.

The direction they're taking it in is just... dumb.

There's no other way to describe it, especially when the main advantage to the item is a fucking 50% crit chance bonus.

50000000000000004 votes

As that one person who likes playing AD support... I disapprove.

kJs4 votes

I don't like it either. It's a completely different item.

I also dislike how all new supports get designed down the AP magic damage path and there is simply not a lot of anything else to do.

Mandang02 votes

I couldn't agree more about everything - the lost itemization symmetry with Abyssal, that this item shouldn't be getting compared to Zeke's in the first place, the lack of need for another mana+AP item in the midst of a huge AP itemization buff...

If this new Zeke's comes live, it's going to completely warp the game as we know it. Just think what happens when Janna finishes Zeke's with rank 5 shield and her ADC has IE (all things that will be rushed): Janna will give her ADC 56 AD and 50% crit chance on top of the 80 AD, 20% crit chance, and +50% crit damage from IE. 70% of the time, that ADC will be critting for ~240*2.5 = 625 damage (pre-mitigation). That's on 1 item!

In general, build paths will be affected (IE even more mandatory, IE+BoRK will be back as the best 2-item combo, lategame builds change to not exceed crit cap). Champion viability will be affected (non-IE ADCs will take a big hit, mage supports get a huge buff from nowhere). RNG will determine more games as a result of being stronger earlier (you think people complain about crit now...). Duo queue bot lanes will now become an even more disproportionately responsible part of their team's success (both members of the Zeke's pair got buffed huge by this).

Riot hasn't thought this item through. It's an interesting concept as it makes Zeke's more flexible, but the specific buffs they chose to go with change the game in ways that I don't think anyone was asking for. 50% crit chance is way stronger than 20% AP, so Riot's implicitly buffing ADC as a class with this, and buffing mage supports as a class too, only the latter of whom might actually need the buff. The choice to move from a diffuse aura to a focused, more-powerful buff puts emphasis on one person instead of the team, and it's really an unprecedented thing so I'm not surprised people aren't more alarmed yet. The game could very well become protect-the-ADC when this item drops, which I don't think anyone was asking for.

Sorry for the rant, I really liked your post & I hope Riot doesn't push this item to live.

Arcane Azmadi1 votes

Unfortunately, as we should all know by know, this is a futile protest from us because Riot are going to push it out to live. Riot almost never change their minds about ANYTHING, no matter how unpopular it is with the player base. The most we can expect is that they'll realise what a horribly unbalanced, meta-warping thing it is like you said and nerf the shit out of it before they release it, so nobody EVER builds it because it's worthless.

Lost In Time1 votes

You miss Stark's Fervor?

You know, the item no one built at the time it existed? That one?

Skinny All Might2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lost In Time,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OdtEQRMK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-30T06:46:48.035+0000)

You miss Stark's Fervor?

You know, the item no one built at the time it existed? That one?

Apparently, you don't know shit if you say that no one bought it. It was changed because it was built too often on bruisers. The attack speed, life steal, armor, and armor reduction was a goldmine of stats for a low price for most bruisers. It was a rush or lose item at one point, so you are uneducated about this item.

Lost In Time1 votes

{quoted}

Apparently, you don't know shit if you say that no one bought it. It was changed because it was built too often on bruisers. The attack speed, life steal, armor, and armor reduction was a goldmine of stats for a low price for most bruisers. It was a rush or lose item at one point, so you are uneducated about this item.

I started League early 2011.

The item was last nerfed 2010, and that was miniscule.

It was reworked in 2012 because of the fact that no one built that item.

Sounds like more over-rated nostalgia-fagism to me.

So yes, I do know shit. It was "broken" for what seems like a few patches, gained the "nerf" stigma around it, and was never to be seen again.

Plus we have far better items now compared to early League days.

Celeste Benal1 votes

Duo with Yasuo confirmed. (Do not nerf Yasuo because of this item.)

Also confirmed, this is a terrible idea coming from the balance team. Every ADC will want their supp to buy this.

Imagine Ashe, with her linear dps scaling based on crit chance, getting a sudden 50% crit chance buff at the same time as getting her Q at 5 stacks.

CoffeeDave1 votes

If the Goal was to buff caster supports, then this item would have failed. All it would do it limit the already-limited item builds for caster supports. If the goal was to buff ADCs, then this item would also fail on that front too for it would just serve as a buff to ADCs that are already strong. I don't even want to think about a Kalista/Anyone Bot lane with this item.

Here's a crazy thought, I know supports are not allowed to have 'good' AP Scaling due to the utility, but in light of the more recent releases (Kalista, Ekko, Fat Cat Man), all of whom have more utility then most supports nowadays and better damage scaling....Why not just buff the scaling on the AP supports? As it is, Most supports won't be able to take advantage of Support AP Items unless the team is snowballing hard. At most the Caster Support would have Frost Queens on a average game, and the rest of the items be Sightstone, Boots, Crusible and Locket. I can't remember the last time I've built Twin Shadows on a support.

Alternatively, so long as we're going crazy here, and Sightstone is already a 'must buy' on all supports, Why not have the Sightstone customizable like the Jungle items? Might make Ruby Sightstone be worth building.

Nicorus 1 votes

The typical role I play in game as a support is to ward, and to be a tanky-ish engage. I like to play a lot of bard and blitz. My standard build path is to build into a ruby sightstone, boots, and a cloth armor (this is just a standard build path, and not a go to every time). But at this point I'm still relevant in the mid game. Legion is an expensive Item which I dont have the ability to buy until mid to late game, depending on how well I do. Legion should in all actuality be built in almost every game, either by the support or the jungle. Simply because it gives your adc a bit higher chance at survival. zeke's herald I don't normally build simply because I don't have a high enough income. If you're looking to increase support diversity I would look at improving the current support items. I almost never continue the build on my ancient coin simply because its not cost effective when I could buy other items which grant passive abilities which help my team more.

If zeke's herald is altered to boost AP items, it will create a race for the supports to build either this new zeke's or a legion to counteract it. This seems toxic to the game that an item being built would result in an opposing reaction item being built. You are essentially creating a scenario for a low resource support champ being forced into building an item which wont help your team, but bring the playing field back into balance essentially.

all in all a support AP boost aura type item can be exploited by the wealthier support to lock in the other support for an expensive item, which I believe to be a toxic path.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Okay guys, the reason that this item is important is because Riot is nerfing all the other AP items. Zhonyas will give less AP, and Ludens will give less AP, meaning Morgana support and poke AP supports will have less utility than they want at end game. Riot understands that AP supports don't build a whole lot of AP, so lowering the AP that they do build will likely screw up the meta even further (AP poke supports are supposed to counter tank supports).

Now, the reason that these changes will be neutral in the mid lane is because of the change to Rabadon's Deathcap, which is getting a higher % AP amp to compensate for the lower AP of items you build next to it. But seeing as AP supports likely won't build Deathcap, Riot is releasing a different item that will give AP supports a slightly lower % AP amp, but has utility and armor to make you feel better about buying it as a support (and also has mana on it to prevent mid laners from buying it, come on people this isn't hard. If that 250 mana was something else, you'd all be talking about how you were going to buy it on your mid laner to give your jungler 50% crit chance every team fight while giving you +35% AP from Rabadons and +20% AP from Zeke's as Veigar).

The item is fine.

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