Garen feels, well, left in the dust...

NovaDisk··22 votes·2,573 views

Garen has been feeling particularly underwhelming recently, especially at higher brackets of play. Above about mid-Plat, players can easily position and kite Garen to the point of uselessness. He's not dominating Low ELO either. According to op.gg, Garen has less than 50% win rate in every bracket of play, including Bronze and Silver.

Additionally, according to op.gg, Garen is one of only two champions that has not had a SINGLE GAME in Master or Challenger on the NA, EUW, EUNE, or KR servers. (The other being Nasus. Yes, even Warwick and Urgot see more play than Garen in high ELO.)

Garen has a weak early game that transitions into a weak late game. Why? Itemization and masteries.

I could easily write a page about Garen's items, but to avoid wall of text, all of Garen's items got nerfed, while new, powerful items were introduced that Garen cannot use effectively (Rylai's, PD, Triforce, Talisman). Garen also has to build off-core against AP lane bullies in order to survive.

As far as keystones go, the only satisfying Keystone is Thunderlord's, but because Garen gets kited so easily, he pretty much HAS to take Swiftness, which forces him to take Grasp. This means that not only is Garen kited around by permaslows, he also gets outscaled by Fervor lane bullies which he cannot fight in lane due to lack of range.

A lot of Garen's weaknesses could be reduced by simply increasing his Movespeed, either by buffing his Base MS to 345 from 340, or by increasing the effectiveness of his Q.

72 Comments

Master Vemira6 votes

Garen is like Karma to me after they removed her aoe from her sheild, and kindred after they gutted her stats and heal. Dead to me, and dropped like a sack of shit. I only played garen to dumpster gnar players with Crit/Ar pen garen running ignite top lane, Level 2 insta win. 5/7 would rather pick full ad darius now than any of those 3 champs.

NovaDisk3 votes

For sure. Darius, the useful version of Garen.

Darkomantis6 votes

Look man, I'm in Bronze and I know that Garen is INSANELY strong. Even LS in his tier list listed Garen as S-Tier..! His ultimate did 2400 TRUE DAMAGE when I was 5% hp like it's so unfair dude! Garen doesn't need buffs.. HE NEEDS NERFS!

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Well at 5% HP an ignite would have been enough to kill you sooooo... What really feels unfair against garen is when you play nautilus top. Play him full tank with 3k health, peel for your allies and when you are about 50% health (considering you are his villain) and garen walks up presses R and kills you for 1400 true dmg. But other than that garen is unfortunately mostly garbage. Only his splitpushing is decent thanks to his Q proccing on towers

Lasslow2 votes

I kinda gave up trying to come up with a counter argument when I realised you said, "I'm in bronze," "Garen insanely strong," unfair," "needs nerfs."

Tychusfindlay9196 votes

Juggy items have taken a little too much of a hit. The most recent being the BC nerf where they took out a little ad and made it cheaper.

The main reason for garen's demise is the introduction of rylais and mallet to the meta. It would also be nice if garen could do some real damage without the enemy being a villain. In fact, remove the villain mechanic and put more power into either the ult, spin, Q, or a mixture of the three. His tankiness is fine.

NovaDisk1 votes

Yeah, Rylai's and Mallet feel REALLY bad to play against as Garen. Against any team that can build either of them (which is basically every team), Garen is forced to take MS Runes and probably Swiftness mastery with Swifty boots. Other champions that have dashes and stuns can run with more powerful Runes, Boots, and Masteries and out-trade you for most of the lane phase.

Sometimes I try to work around permaslow by building PD or Triforce, but both of these options leave Garen feeling low-damage and squishy.

This is a pretty big problem for Garen, that I think could be addressed with some minor changes like more movespeed or innate slow resist.

I really miss the fact that W used to give CCR, the CCR reduction mechanic felt like it was a rewarding way to outplay your opponents, something Garen sadly has very little opportunity to do these days.

I also agree that Garen's ult feels really weak against non-villains. For some context, against non-villains, Garen's ult deals about 300 damage at level 6 (at the lethal threshold). Riven's ult does 300 in base damage without even considering the AD ratio.

Tychusfindlay9193 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Rylai's and Mallet feel REALLY bad to play against as Garen. Against any team that can build either of them (which is basically every team), Garen is forced to take MS Runes and probably Swiftness mastery with Swifty boots. Other champions that have dashes and stuns can run with more powerful Runes, Boots, and Masteries and out-trade you for most of the lane phase.

Sometimes I try to work around permaslow by building PD or Triforce, but both of these options leave Garen feeling low-damage and squishy.

This is a pretty big problem for Garen, that I think could be addressed with some minor changes like more movespeed or innate slow resist.

I really miss the fact that W used to give CCR, the CCR reduction mechanic felt like it was a rewarding way to outplay your opponents, something Garen sadly has very little opportunity to do these days.

I also agree that Garen's ult feels really weak against non-villains. For some context, against non-villains, Garen's ult deals about 300 damage at level 6 (at the lethal threshold). Riven's ult does 300 in base damage without even considering the AD ratio.

"300" and its magic damage as opposed to Darius's guaranteed true damage ult. Honestly, I think most people would rather darius. One can argue sure but darius requires a stacking mechanic.

By the time garen stick to someone with his E to get them low enough for a potential execute, darius would have had 4-5 stacks for sticking as long. Then of course darius gets an invaluable reset mechanic that garen doesn't.

NovaDisk1 votes

Yeah, I know what you mean about True Damage and Resets.

Against the Villain, Garen's ult is pretty satisfying though, and it is better against mega-tanks (Assuming they are the villain).

On the other hand, it feels REALLY bad when Leona gets a random kill and becomes the Villain right before a game-deciding teamfight.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I know what you mean about True Damage and Resets.

Against the Villain, Garen's ult is pretty satisfying though, and it is better against mega-tanks (Assuming they are the villain).

On the other hand, it feels REALLY bad when Leona gets a random kill and becomes the Villain right before a game-deciding teamfight.

It's satisfying but usually not the case since carries usually become villains. Then it gets to the same issue where by the time a squishy gets low enough for garen, they would pretty much be low enough for darius who has it better since he can then reuse the ult on a new target whereas Garen just does nothing but continue spinning.

Rotisserie Jews4 votes

Are u serious?

NovaDisk7 votes

Look up the stats for yourself, if you don't believe me.

Garen and Nasus are the only two champs that have not been played in the last month in Master or Challenger, in NA, EUW, EUNE, or KR.

Garen is balanced, but far from dominant in Low ELO. According to op.gg, Garen has a 49% Winrate in Bronze and Silver on NA.

Carnarius2 votes

{quoted}

Look up the stats for yourself, if you don't believe me.

Garen and Nasus are the only two champs that have not been played in the last month in Master or Challenger, in NA, EUW, EUNE, or KR.

Garen is balanced, but far from dominant in Low ELO. According to op.gg, Garen has a 49% Winrate in Bronze and Silver on NA.

i played some games with nasus this month, so these statistics lie. although i'm sure they aren't far away from being correct, as these 2 champions are considered being trash in high elo

ripGarenGod3 votes

As a diamond Garen main, its rough up here...

NovaDisk1 votes

Yeah, I can imagine.

How do you deal with Tryndamere as Garen? It seems like if you build tanky he ignores you, and if you build damage, you aren't durable enough to survive his ult. Seems like a pretty tough matchup.

ripGarenGod1 votes

Eazy match up for me mostly, rush thornmail and ninja tabi, watch him cry, also throw in a omen.

Matezoide3 votes

Garen is simply suffering because of numerous indirect nerfs and buffs to other champions. Riot could probably revert a few of the nerfs he received post-rework and remove the crit from his spin for another buff since Yoummus doesnt have Crit anymore.

Frius2 votes

ikr ,his all counters buffed ,his items nerfed ,his speed nerfed

one of my suggestions would be increase spin circle of radius from 165 to 200 ,cause his basic attack reaches longer than spin ,AA is 175 ,spin is 165 or so they say on tooltips

Teridax682 votes

Part of the reason Garen isn't good right now is because many of the champions he's supposed to be targeting, i.e. marksmen and mages, have too much access to persistent CC, namely Frozen Mallet and Rylai's, and therefore get to kite him far too well. The larger issue, though, is that Garen is a juggernaut that really gets countered hard by kiting: while all juggernauts are meant to be kiteable, every other member of the class has a tool that lets them still do stuff from a distance, usually via crowd control with their W or E (or, in Udyr's case, Chilling Smite, and Rylai's + E/R for Mordekaiser). By contrast, Garen only starts to be a threat when he's right on top of you, and despite the mobility and slow cleanse from his Q, it's pretty difficult for him to get into combat easily, let alone reach the back line and ult the Villain.

Personally, I think Garen needed a slightly different direction for his Juggernaut Update changes: bar his upgraded E, which is a pretty awesome ability, all of his other mechanics still have some issues. His W bonus resistance gain is kinda nice as a teaching tool, but ultimately gives power that learners will find hard to appreciate (30 free armor/MR only sounds good once you're experienced enough to know the value and impact of those stats), and that would be better spent on more interesting effects (the W active is also pretty boring, and lacks immediate impact). His Q is simple and satisfying to use, but the mini-windup still doesn't feel great, the silence tends to make him more binary (he either reaches you and kills you without you being able to do too much to escape, or he doesn't and can't do anything), and prevents him from being as good at killing as he deserves to be, and the movespeed bonus scaling in duration, rather than strength, means this ability becomes stronger without feeling as powerful as it should (as with his W, it also limits his ability to feel really good when using Q at the right moment). The new Villain mechanic was intended to give him a niche, but didn't really change any aspect of his gameplay: sure, he gets to be strong against a particular high-value target, but his inability to reliably make use of that means he might as well ignore it most of the time. Even just making the Villain mechanic extend the range of Garen's ult against the Villain, instead of providing bonus true damage, would've helped him out more (not that that should be the answer, though).

Tl;DR I think Garen's unsuccessful right now, especially in pro play, and will remain the same in the future, because his kit rework didn't really address his core flaws, and instead gave him some new mechanics that, for the most part, didn't really end up working out. He still doesn't really have a niche (or, at least, he can't really put his niche into effect reliably, which is what's locking him out of pro play), and if he gets kited (which is especially bad now, what with the popularity of permaslow items), there is literally nothing he can do against his opponent (and, on the flipside, if his opponent can't kite him, there's nothing much they can do to stop him). He needs a way of affecting fights even from a distance, and he needs tweaks to his combat style to make fighting as him and against him a little more interesting.

Drugoth2 votes

Wait until Ivern comes out. I bet he has an ability that creates brush (guessing from the teaser)

Hehe hehe....

http://i.imgur.com/0PSTPuZ.png

Requiemsfire2 votes

Should move his slow cleanse onto his W.

Part of Garen's weakness is that his only way to quickly close a gap using movement speed is also the only way for him to overcome slow CC.

I don't think Garen's damage in particular is bad or needs a buff but rather his ability to engage onto enemies struggles against competent opponents. Garen has the inherent weakness of simply being melee making it easy to kite him and that he has no gap closers or ranged CC he is caught into a place where slows, stuns, snares and displacements defeat him in his role entirely.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

Garen's problems are more fundamental to the champion than anything silly like shifts in the meta or nerfs to his items.

The problem with Garen is that there is essentially no reason to pick him while Darius exists.

Darius has better single target damage, better AOE damage, better range, better utility, better in-combat sustain, better team fighting, better dueling ability, better on-demand tank-shredding, better on-demand squishy killing, and even more true damage. Garen in turn is very slightly more mobile, tankier, and has the Villain mechanic.

The Villain mechanic is a big part of Garen's issues. It provides ridiculous damage to that single target, far more than any other juggernaut provides, and lets him duel almost anyone. But it's unreliable and eats up so much of his power budget that he's just frankly a shitty Darius when he isn't on top of the Villain. It's meant to be his steroid that lets him build durability while still building a lot of bulk, but he can't choose when he can access it. Darius' armour penetration is always up, and playing well gives him control over when he can access his huge AD steroid and true damage. The other juggernaut steroids are also fairly reliable in that they can control it.

Garen can't, and he suffers for it.

Furthermore, what is Garen's identity meant to be? His kit would imply he's the duelist/diver juggernaut, focused on killing single targets. His very small threat radius seems to support this, as does what the Villain mechanic was made to represent.

Only if he's not attacking the Villain he does less damage than just about every other juggernaut, even to single targets. He's also THE worst duelist among the juggernauts, unless of course he's fighting the Villain.

Giving him back some of his mobility will help him a little bit, but he will still ultimately be a worse Darius until the Villain mechanic is thrown into the trash and replaced with giving him actual decent numbers.

NovaDisk1 votes

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head about Garen's villain mechanic being inaccessible.

Here's an idea for a potential buff to the Villain mechanic:

Let Garen select the Villain after Level 11 (after laning generally ends), similar to Kindred's passive. I would imagine the split-pushing Tryndamere or the 10-2 Vayne is more 'villainous' than the Alistar that accidentally picked up a kill with ignite a minute before the giant teamfight. (Might be a different story if it was Soraka ).

In all seriousness, though, it's very difficult for Garen to impact a teamfight if he has the wrong Villain.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

Wait for the Divers update.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Wait for the Divers update.

thats in a year. even if it were guaranteed to introduce changes that benefit him, my patience is at an end at some point, and ill just drop this game for something else.

{quoted}

2% Per second. 10% every 5 seconds.

at lvl 16.

TyroneWatermelon2 votes

How much time do you think I wait for my favourite champ? More than you ever will. Me and my main's players just get a big middle finger from Riot.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

How much time do you think I wait for my favourite champ? More than you ever will. Me and my main's players just get a big middle finger from Riot.

im playing this game since season 1. i can probably count the times they even touched him on one hand.

the first time he got a minor rework was in season 2. the next big changes was the juggernaut patch in season 5.

im not even expecting something on the scope of the juggernaut update, but im running out of patience, and im not waiting a full year until they give him some minor buffs. it should be an easy case, the threat of overbuffing him with something like 5 base ms and 5% ms on his q back is low.

i play this game mostly, because im having fun playing the champion. if they leave him in the ditch, im simply not going to play and evenually leave.

TyroneWatermelon2 votes

But he's not picked in the flashy LCS plays,and his popularity isn't high,which means you,me and all champs in the same situation get a middle finger.

Frius4 votes

garen`s no diver ,he runs ,he doesnt dive like xin E ,diana R or aatrox Q

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

i know,but it will be the closest update that they would touch garen in.

Frius2 votes

garen will never be a part of that ,he is a juggernaut ,not a diver garen is out of any future updates in classes

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

it is not confirmed.

NovaDisk1 votes

Now imagine if Garen's Q was actually a gapcloser

Lordk0z1 votes

2% Per second. 10% every 5 seconds.

Frius3 votes

when the game is over

NovaDisk2 votes

At level 16, after most games have already been decided. While his passive gives him some nice sustain (basically a free Warmog's), during Lane he can't really use his passive unless he is giving up CS to regen.

Radnar the bold1 votes

I stopped playing league right before they started nerfing Garen, I come back and find Yorick more fun to play than Garen.

The issue was they release an OP tank that could shred after the juggernaut patch, so Riot just kept nerfing him. It's an issue that I feel riot always has, which is they keep nerfing a champ until they become useless (AZIR).

Critmaster Garen5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radnar the bold,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QHeFzx0b,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-09-15T18:27:10.039+0000)

I stopped playing league right before they started nerfing Garen, I come back and find Yorick more fun to play than Garen.

The issue was they release an OP tank that could shred after the juggernaut patch, so Riot just kept nerfing him. It's an issue that I feel riot always has, which is they keep nerfing a champ until they become useless (AZIR).

garen received 2 nerfs in total after the juggernaut update.

one was that kills agaisnt garen wouldnt count towards villainy anymore, since it was problematic in lane.

the other was 5 base ms reduced, and 5% movement speed from his q taken off due to the effect of dead mans plate on him at the time.

since then he has been balanced for a whole year and hasnt been touched at all. its really all the indirect nerfs to items, and masteries that have not even been targeted at him, but mainly at certain champions who abused them. (like adc and assassins with maw and steraks for example).

they just need to buff his freaking numbers to get him back into the game. he doesnt even need major kit changes to be at least decent into diamond.

revert the movement nerfs as compensation for the boot upgrades being removed and swifties being nerfed, and increase his base health and health/lvl scaling.

that would probably already be enough for now. if not, it would be a good start.

NovaDisk1 votes

Even 5 MS would help him a lot. Garen pretty much got a 5MS nerf when they nerfed Swifties, because he relies on them so heavily.

Garen's health is a little low for his class, too, but I do not want him getting to the point where he is too strong.

Frius4 votes

ikr dead man nerf ,swiftness nerf ,sunfire cost up ,cleaver ?! , sterak nerf etc.

Hahahahyena1 votes

Unless garen gets a damage Nerf he doesn't need a buff of some sort

FallenSeruvim3 votes

Garen's dmg is so weak, an adc can be the villain, stand still in your E and lifesteal through the dmg late game. What's the point? Also the MOMENT someone CC's Garen he is utterly useless from thus on in that team fight. The only use I see Garen having is as an "anti-diver," standing around waiting for a Zed or Khaz or Noc, or Akali or Diana to jump someone. This also completely contradicts his "Villain" passive which encourages Garen to go after and pressure this target. Garen is balanced as a Juggernaut, Juggernauts are supposed to be slow and deal massive damage, yet a Poppy deals more dmg and can't solo a Garen, He has zero means of getting on a target except for MOVING REALLY FAST which completely contradicts his role as a juggernaut even more. Unless of course they want to have Garen be a unique fast moving juggernaut but his damage output is poop. The champ is a mess right now, literally an utter mess :(

Hahahahyena1 votes

if they want to make him move fast and you want him to do more damage thats fine, then they need to nerf his durability

you cant buff something on him without having something else nerfed, he will be even more broken than he already is if he just gets a buff without a nerf

FallenSeruvim5 votes

The issue is Garen isn't durable. Unless he builds tank, then his damage output is even weaker than previously stated. Not sure why my post was downvoted lul, people who get rekt by Garen just salty apparently. The champion has no strengths, if someone needs a buff you buff them. You don't ALWAYS have to nerf somewhere else to compensate a buff, Garen performs nothing well right now. You only nerf along side a buff if its necessary where a buff grossly propels another aspect of said champion.

NovaDisk1 votes

Garen's in such a bad spot right now (either the worst or 2nd worst champion in High ELO), that he could afford to get a minor buff to either his damage or speed (I would argue for speed, since he received a lot of indirect nerfs to his speed).

His durability is fine, there are plenty of other champs with similar or greater survivability. There's plenty of counterplay to Garen's survivability, too, all you have to do is stun him before he can press W, then he can be easily burst.

Also, in what world is Garen broken?

Hahahahyena1 votes

he cant afford anything because he would just dominate without receiving a nerf somewhere else. unless he becomes harder to play or gets a nerf somewhere else (to his mobility/damage/surviveability choose one to nerf if he MUST need a buff)

NovaDisk1 votes

I would very much welcome a change that increases his difficulty, because that would give him a little bit of room for outplay potential.

His immobility and simplicity/predictability makes him impossible to be successful with in higher brackets of play.

Another 'easy' champion, Pantheon, is viable at almost any level of play. While Pantheon's kit is even simpler than Garen's, he enjoys much more success because he has a gap closer and a stun.

Hahahahyena1 votes

{quoted}

I would very much welcome a change that increases his difficulty, because that would give him a little bit of room for outplay potential.

His immobility and simplicity/predictability makes him impossible to be successful with in higher brackets of play.

Another 'easy' champion, Pantheon, is viable at almost any level of play. While Pantheon's kit is even simpler than Garen's, he enjoys much more success because he has a gap closer and a stun.

pantheon doesnt have 3000 health and a load of stacked damage that is true damage to some. Garen would be even more broken than he already is if he got a buff without a nerf

NovaDisk1 votes

I think you missed one of the central points of my original post:

In the past month, between NA, EUW, EUNE, and KR, Garen was not picked ONCE in Masters+. Not ONE SINGLE GAME.

How is he broken if he is unpicked in High ELO?

If Garen was truly broken, Pro and High ELO players whose livelihood depends on their performance would pick Garen whenever they could.

Graves is broken.

Nidalee is broken.

Garen is Trash-tier, forgotten by Riot for an entire year.

NovaDisk1 votes

You can't 100-0 a squishy villain unless you hit Q on them before E. This basically means you need to have both Flash and Q available in order to threaten their carry, assuming the members of their front line aren't potatoes.

You basically get a chance to kill their ADC once every 5 minutes. (Assuming they are the villain, of course. If the enemy tank or support is the villain you're out of luck).

This means that forcing Garen to break a slow or reposition using his Q causes a long window where Garen can't threaten their carry, and cannot 'anti-dive' by silencing the diver.

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