Can we stop defending coin now?

chipndip1·Oct 3, 2017·52 votes·9,480 views

Sona and Soraka are now simply replacing Janna after Riot hammer fist punched Janna with her mini-rework.

However, Sona hasn't been a major balancing issue until she started building coin in the first place. It's also around this time that Soraka started going off the rails.

So why do you guys keep defending coin and blaming Ardent when changes to coin are what got these enchanters out of line in the first place? I seriously would like the problem fixed before my champion gets bopped, please. Didn't these boards actively speak out AGAINST Sejuani'ing champs? Where's the love now?

150 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 3, 201744 votes

We're discussing Coin adjustments internally, as well as a potential adjustment to Spellthief's. Not sure what will ship, but conversations are being had.

Regardless of the outcome of those conversations, it may still be the right thing to do to make some changes to certain enchanters. Over the course of the last few years, a lot has changed about the standards of fairness that modern spells are held to, and defensive spells frequently haven't been held subject to those same standards. Many offensive spells can miss, or have delays or other sources of unreliability to them that make the outcomes behind using them uncertain, or at least give opponents time to react to them occurring. Most defensive spells, on the other hand, are just point and click defensive steroids or health injections of some sort. Reliability isn't necessarily a bad thing; it contributes heavily to a champion being able to do its job consistently. But when characters of high reliability become dominant, it can feel especially hopeless to try to fight them. We see that regularly on offensive-oriented characters, but the same can be true of defensive ones. As such, if or once Ancient Coin is appropriately balanced, it could still be the right thing to do small updates or modernization/fairness passes on some enchanters (or more specifically, to low gameplay defensive spells) to promote more healthy gameplay overall. The implications on the overall flow and cohesiveness of the kit are usually significant in these cases, though, so doing them can be difficult.

For what it's worth, there's no scheduled action planned on this front at the moment, but talks around what makes for good enchanter gameplay (both through coin and individual kits) are ones we've been having lately.

JooshBoxOct 3, 20177 votes

It's a bit of a shame you guys aren't doing any more class updates. I really would've liked to see the team tackle the enchanter class.

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 3, 201726 votes

I think the decision to take a step back from them and reconsider what outcome they were trying to achieve was a good call. It was honestly getting too procedural, and the results weren't consistently good enough to merit the effort that went in. There are still classes (or several characters within certain classes) that need some help certainly, but a fresh perspective on how to approach that will be healthy for us when we get around to it.

TheGoomyGamerOct 3, 20173 votes

Are you going to permanently stop class updates, or will you maybe do them occasionally when it is needed? I think its not a good idea to write them off permanently, as at the moment enchanters need a bit of work and some other classes might in the future.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20171 votes

You already updated every class not named bruisers.

Makes people think.

The Last BalladOct 4, 20171 votes

Enchanters, battle mages, cc centric pick supports... oh, and ap marksman items. We have exactly one of those.

AirKingNeoOct 5, 20171 votes

Enchanters? You mean the mage update when they introduced +% Heal/Shield Power which is why we have shielding problems now.

Battle mages? You mean the mage update?

CC supports? Locket rework? Zekes rework? Knight's Vow?

Ap marksmen don't exist. The fuck?

The Last BalladOct 5, 20171 votes

Teemo Azir Kayle Kennen Lulu Janna

Teemo Azir Kayle All of these champs are ap and rely on attack speed for one of their main builds, and Kennen Lulu Janna have "off-meta" builds that are successful and rely on ap and attack speed(and before you say "oh thats not how they are supposed to be played you can't do that", Riot has stated that they do not want to hinder creative item builds, except in the case where the off-meta role/build is much stronger than the champs that usually inhabit that role and/or negatively impact the game. ie: Tank Ekko, AP mid Janna, Annie support).

And what items do we have to give them the stats that they want? item 3115 and item 3124 . That's it, and one of those is more useful for on-hit champs.

Ap marksmen don't exist. The fuck?

Azir was literally introduced as an Auto attack centered mage.

Azir is a mage who summons Shuriman soldiers to control the battlefield and basic attack for him. The soldier’s piercing basic attacks furnish most of Azir’s damage potential, making him an outlier amongst mages as a right-click-focused champion.

Ranged auto centric champs(and by that I mean do most of their damage via auto attacks) are usually called marksmen, or are considered hybrid marksmen, Ap champs build ap to do their damage. So a champ that builds ap and deals damage through right clicking on enemies is a Ap marksman. And how, HOW did you manage to forget about Teemo, a champ who puts out half his damage through his auto's, and has damage on those auto's scaling off his ap? And he is considered a marksman, while also being considered as AP.

Enchanters? You mean the mage update when they introduced +% Heal/Shield Power which is why we have shielding problems now.

Name one enchanter that had their kit changed in the Mage update. And the Enchanter item lineup is still sorely lacking in options, as item 3504 is only useful for a small subset of champs(and an issue in its own right), item 3222 is useless if the enemy doesn't have any big ticket cc that you need to cleanse, and item 3107 is useful, but building it in every game because there isn't any other viable choice and not because your team want's to teamfight... I doubt that is what Riot wants.

So the enchanter items can be summed up as "op, situational, and mandatory". I actually meant that as each part referring to a separate item, but really all of them applies to each item. And when situational items are mandatory every game, for every enchanter, that's an issue.

Also the only enchanter item changed in the mage update was item 3028 , which doesn't give +%hsp, and that was 6.9. item 3504 and item 3222 were given +%hsp on patch 6.13, which was after the mid year update, and item 3107 was introduced in 6.22.

So this:

You mean the mage update when they introduced +% Heal/Shield Power which is why we have shielding problems now.

Is false.

AirKingNeoOct 5, 20171 votes

Teemo is a anti bruiser and builds Frozen Mallet -> Wit's End. Azir is a mage. Kayle is the only magical marksmen and has perfect itemization.

Lulu, Janna, and Kennen don't have onhit builds. Kennen is built as a mage. The others are enchanters.

You can't make an argument about things that don't really exist.

The Last BalladOct 12, 20171 votes

Teemo is a anti bruiser and builds Frozen Mallet -> Wit's End.

And he does damage via ranged auto attacks, so much like the marksman that he is classified as, and has a tendency to build ap. Also, since when does any champ build only 2 items. On r/Teemo item 3115 is rather favored as one of the first items due to the ap, on hit, attack speed, and cdr it gives.

Azir is a mage.

Who happens to use basic attacks(or, at least, the input of basic attacks which rely on attack speed) to do his damage. Scales very well with attack speed and ap. Also did you forget this tidbit?

Azir is a mage who summons Shuriman soldiers to control the battlefield and basic attack for him. The soldier’s piercing basic attacks furnish most of Azir’s damage potential, making him an outlier amongst mages as a right-click-focused champion.

Yeah, he is a mage, who does his damage via right clicks like Kayle! But you go ahead and try playing him without using basic attacks on enemy champions like pure mages can( Syndra Anivia Xerath ), I'll wait.

Kayle is the only magical marksmen and has perfect itemization.

She has two items that can give her what she wants. Hardly perfect. Also, its strange that you consider Kayle, who is a mage who does a most of her damage via how her abilities interact with her basic attacks(because when does kayle ever fight without her e if she can help it), but don't consider Teemo and Azir to be, despite fitting that same MO.

Lulu, Janna, and Kennen don't have onhit builds. Kennen is built as a mage. The others are enchanters.

Oh really Lulu has no on-hit builds? [sg-lulu]

And this guide does have a section on on-hit kennen(ad/on-hit kennen was a popular thing a few months ago fyi)

And Janna? Her passive is on-hit. Just slap a item 3153 item 3124 item 3085 item 3009 (passive damage is based off bonus ms) item 3115 item 3091 on her and she will be hitting like a truck. Its fun. And look at that! Its a build that focuses on doing damage via on hit effects.(otherwise known as an "on-hit build") And before you say "oh anyone can build that and do the same amount of damage", let me remind you that her passive gives her between 6 and 80 on hit damage, based on her level and her total movement speed. And she can gain 40(+10% ap) ad on demand due to her shield. So no, not every champ can build the same and do a similer amount of damage.

But all this relies on not thinking as if champs are restricted to building for only what they were created to do. I know it is hard, but then again, all innovation is.

AirKingNeoOct 12, 20171 votes

Azir relies more on his AP ratios than stacking attack speed, hence his massive 60% AP ratio per soldier auto.

Lulu and Janna don't have viable onhit builds. Builds people use in normals like full AP teemo or Crit Kayle are the same; they don't count.

[sg-lulu] but thanks for telling me I can just send this emote to automatically win arguments.

The Last BalladOct 15, 20171 votes

Azir relies more on his AP ratios than stacking attack speed, hence his massive 60% AP ratio per soldier auto.

Relies more, yes. But can you seriously tell me that if Azir could pick up another item like item 3115 that gives a good amount of both the stats he wants, he wouldn't?

Lulu and Janna don't have viable onhit builds.

Viable: capable of working successfully; feasible.

By this definition if you are capable of wining with it readily(and that is to say, against a variety of enemy champs in the lane you are going in), then it is viable. And how can Teemo successfully be built on hit, but champs with longer range, better self-peel, and equally powerful on-hit/attack portions of their kit not be?

Or is it because they are supports, and therefor they can't build anything other than that(which is a terrible way to theory craft)?

Builds people use in normals like full AP teemo or Crit Kayle are the same; they don't count.

Is this a "The pro's don't do it so therefor it cant work, neh!" argument, or a "Im going to exclude everything that could potentially prove me wrong so that I am right" argument? Because both are terrible.

5000000000000000Oct 3, 20176 votes

The main reason they stopped is because they didn't like how the champ reworks turned out, but I think itemization rework was a generally good idea. I hope at least they do itemization reworks, if not champion reworks, during future class updates.

dreadnoughtus01Oct 3, 20172 votes

Oh? This has me excited, yes, the enchanters basically need a class update even if Riot isn't doing them anymore. Least interactive class in the game, too safe, with boring mechanics. Plus Sona, Soraka and Janna are really old game designs.

The best enchanters mechanically are the newest one's. Nami and the hybrid enchanters like Taric/Rakan all feel (relatively) fair and have counter-play.

EROTIC RAID BOSSOct 3, 20172 votes

surprised a little because I feel like before coin and censor became ridiculous no one really had an issue with enchanters

Athenes LuluOct 3, 20177 votes

What about coin having waaaaay so much better gold gens compared to the other two items? Especially in pro play, it's quite clear that whoever has coin always gets more gold than the side who doesn't, sometimes even after the non-coin support worked very hard and were very active in lane while the coin support didn't do much.

Any thoughts on this?

RiotRiotRepertoirOct 3, 20177 votes

I'm not sure where that info comes from. As of checking with the data crew internally this week, it seems Coin users gain marginally more gold than Spellthief's users from their gold generation item specifically. I'm not an expert on the specific tests that were run, so I'll see if I can have one of them drop into a thread with more info at a later time.

chipndip1Oct 3, 201715 votes

Personally, when I compare my gold to that of STE users. I have like 2.5 to 3k on my gold item. STE users get like 1k to 1.5k on theirs. Coin always pumps gold just by being around minions. STE needs an enemy, an attack to land, and charges. I don't see how you'd get only a marginal increase when that's the case ON TOP of free gold per kill and assist after making a mere 650 gold...which is usually done after laning.

In many games I have gold comparable to laners/junglers. I never out-cashed my team outside of fringe cases while using STE in any season, and Sona's the best champ to gain gold off of STE with. You sure your boys got that info straight?

LordGeovanniOct 3, 20172 votes

probally because coin users should be punished when the walk up for gold which is why the enemy can see the coins on the floor. kind of like souls for thresh. but people dont punish thresh for walking up for souls so idk how riot expected people would punish people for using aincent coin.

Dextix LTOct 3, 20172 votes

Except that punishing them is hard, because of how long those coins last and the fact tat you also get mana regeneration coins meaning that you can use your cooldowns more liberaly in such situations. You cannot punish a coin user unless you are highly ahead or pushing to their nexus.

GrievousFetusOct 3, 20172 votes

Just let enemy champions destroy coins by walking over them.

Blades in ExileOct 3, 20171 votes

I honestly didn't even know you can destroy enemy coins by walking over them. Do you think part of the problem of coin generating more gold is that fact that counter play like this isn't very well known?

GrievousFetusOct 3, 20172 votes

reread my post I'm suggesting it as a change.

AzadetheOct 3, 20171 votes

In a way a lot of coin users are punishing themselves. Like it or not, most are mages who scale to AP, and either SHOULD have some AP, or shouldn't be playing Summoner's Rift. Nami particularly, is one of my pet peeves, because I've played her 4 years.

Nami literally needs 190 AP just to break even on Ebb And Flow bounces. With the "meta" itemization and relying on a REALLY LONG COOLDOWN Redemption on a Nami, Nami is 1) Slowing her passive and 2) reducing her Bounce core heals/damage in exchange for a long cdr global situational active. It makes a LOT more sense to get a Chalice, get a Censer, and to get a Frost Queen to boost Nami's AP. However, getting the STE will reduce gold totals, slow her down, and often put her at risk. So, She ends up trading an STE for a Coin. The AP balance on my Nami with Censer and Athene's is only about 138 AP, so she's under her goal at that point. If that's the only AP I push, I'm underhealing my potential, doing about half or even 1/3 my potential damage. So, I started adding a Seraph to my build to supplement the loss of a Frost Queen's AP. Works, adds an all purpose shield, and boosts those heals to +15% per bounce, so the last bounce actually heals more than the first, instead of MUCH LESS.

Bottom Line: Coin although the safer more gold generating pick, punishes support healers and mages into choosing off meta more expensive builds to compensate for not having STE's AP, and sometimes, just as importantly, damage boost (which is important vs turrets and champs alike). And if those supports choose not to build the more expensive build, their win rates are FAR lower than their champion's overall rates of win.

GrievousFetusOct 3, 20171 votes

building AP Nami, Lulu, Sona etc. is a noob trap. They're much more powerful stacking forbidden idol items 9which still give AP). FQC's AP is so miniscule it means no odds.

AzadetheOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

building AP Nami, Lulu, Sona etc. is a noob trap. They're much more powerful stacking forbidden idol items 9which still give AP). FQC's AP is so miniscule it means no odds.

Have you ever actually done Nami as an AP? I suggest you try it over arguing the meta. In a difficult game I average 50k heals and 22-23k damage with less than 3 deaths. In a short game I average 27k heals and 16k damage. Low AP Nami W bounces for heal PENALTIES. High AP Nami bounces for heal BONUSES.

A 130 AP nami with a Redemption, and a Censer and an Athene's will only heal about 185 + 40 + 250 = 475 + 20% = 476 first bounce, and only about 200 heal on Bounce 3.

A 300 AP nami With Censer, Athene's and a Seraph, will heal Bounce 1 185 + 100 + 250 = 642 first bounce, and do about a 632 third bounce, because 1) the amount of damage on bounce 2 is greater, recharging MORE of Athene's, and because the bonus damage will be 15%^2 instead of a penalty.

Net gain on heal just from 170 AP : 598. And, unlike the Redemption, YOU CAN SPAM IT.

Furthermore, Tear is extremely viable for Nami. She's a self and local spammer, and it will help you get to lane FAST without actually burning much mana. It also helps once it's an Archeangel to prevent Tristana bursts or something like a Kayn 1 hit.

When I say "AP" I do NOT mean the entire build. There's a reason I talk in terms of 300ish. She's squishy if you go FULL mage, but a ROA or Seraph's works fine on her. If I'm REALLY winning, I'll go Censer +Athene's +Seraph + Morello + Death Cap.

I generally dont get the Morello or the Death cap, because teams are too competitive to run them, but they are viable, and a 700+ AP Nami is godly for a tank team, especially once adc's have Lord Dominik's.

Remember..... every skill Nami self cast or ally casts, EVEN BUBBLE, activates her passive, so a Tear makes for faster return to lane for adcs as well, when you recall with them.

SalsonOct 3, 20172 votes

Any thought about giving us some of that internal data?

For instance, I'm not sure how to check the power of Rakan and Xayah alone and together. Or winrate of Kayn's transformations.

Some people would surely appreciate the clarity, others would stop making assumptions, which we mostly have to due to the lack of data.

[sg-soraka]

LordGeovanniOct 3, 20172 votes

I cant beleive this is implying that Relic sheild users get as much gold as aincent coin users or spell theif users

xelakerOct 3, 20173 votes

I feel that spelltheif's gold earning is much more difficult to get consistently though. The pickup range is pretty far, but the spellthie income requires you to get within potential adc attack range, and after a certain point you are gonna take a 400 damage auto to get 15 gold...

CrazedPorcupineOct 3, 20172 votes

I had a suggestion for how to prevent Soraka from being absolutely batshit insane WAY back when Soraka's rework to her current kit first hit the PBE.

Drawing Inspiration from Tahm's "Grey health" I suggested the following change

"Astral Infusion: Soraka Grants an allied champion an 80/120/160/200/240 (+X) Shield for 2 seconds. After that period, the remaining health of the shield changes to gray health which slowly decays into health at a 70/85/100/115/130% exchange rate. If the champion is hit while gray health is visible, it is all removed instantly. If soraka has hit a champion with Starcall within the last 3 seconds, the shield lasts twice as long, and soraka gains a shield worth half value. Cooldown: 18/16/14/12/10 seconds"

This sort of concept would be two fold. Ensure Soraka's Out of combat sustain is still among the best in the game, while also allowing FAR more counterplay in the form of poke once to negate all healing. It also makes Soraka have clearer weaknesses in that her sustain in offensive sieging is far more powerful than her sustain in defending against a siege.

Along with the change to her W, her Q would need to be changed as well, especially if you removed Soraka's health cost on her W.

"Starcall: Soraka calls a Star down to a target location, slowing all enemies hit, and granting Soraka 1/2/3/4/5% Increased Healing and Shielding for the next 5 seconds. This increases for each champion hit up to a maximum of 25%."

This change encourages Soraka to be offensive, and offers a FAR more engaging late game benefit to Q than what is currently offered. This encourages Soraka to make riskier plays, and make herself far more vulnerable.

Considering Soraka gets hit incredibly hard by the removal of runes, (You won't find a single Raka player right now who doesn't run Health Regen runes), and that alone will nerf her out of viability, but straight up buffing her is out of the question since she's just too toxic and frustrating to play against.

The biggest issues for Champions like Sona/Soraka is that you guys just can't seem to figure out how to give them "Engaging moments" to take risks. A soraka in lane that manages to hit both enemy laners with Q with my changes, suddenly allows her ally to go INCREDIBLY hard for just a few seconds due to having a far larger shield than would be expected.

SegiusOct 3, 20172 votes

(You won't find a single Raka player right now who doesn't run Health Regen runes) I'm level 7 and I use Ap/armor ruins, running health regen is redundant with her Q

The Yetii RiderOct 3, 20173 votes

That's...troubling. When I cast a shield effect, I want that shield effect to hit. I can understand why playing against a bunch of champions that can shield like Janna is frustrating, but would it really be that much better if every shield in the game functioned like Lux's? I don't think so.

More importantly, Sona's core fantasy now that her auras have been butchered is her reliability. You press buttons, they do things. Even if you mess with other enchanters I have no idea how you would alter this with Sona specifically without ruining what's left of her.

Daedric EtwahlOct 3, 20171 votes

I agree on both points. I have a hard time imagining how one would make Sona's spells less reliable when her whole theme is "musically buffing surrounding allies"

The Last BalladOct 5, 20171 votes

Less auto targeting, more actual targeting and skill shots.

Right now you hit qwe, and either there is a target nearby, and you succeed, or there isn't and you fail.

Surely those parts of her skills could take a reliability hit.

Daedric EtwahlOct 5, 20171 votes

Q, yeah, could be made into a skillshot. Would probably lose the ability to hit two targets at once though.

W, that too, though being able to miss a heal sounds really sucky on paper.

E, is currently just the aura. I suppose you could also make it a skillshot but then Sona would be able to speed up an ally from quite the range.

The Last BalladOct 5, 20171 votes

I was more thinking making her w like Soraka's, as in you actually have to have your mouse over a champ. Rather than the auto targeted one she has now.

E really can't be changed that much without changing the skill.

RaxistaichoOct 3, 20171 votes

The problem is that supports in general but defensive supports in particular have been severely power crept in an effort to get people to actually want to play the role. This problem isn't as blatant with tank or mage supports since they have to actually put themselves at risk for their gold generation or to have an impact in team fights, but it's downright insulting that somebody could play a champion like Sona, Soraka, Janna, or Lulu and have the same impact as their adc, mage, bruiser, assassin, and tank peers without any of the risk, or challenge honestly, that comes with it.

They don't have to worry about csing, trading with enemies, or exposing themselves to danger in team fights, but they get to have a huge impact thanks to how broken enchanter itemization has gotten over the past season or two.

The Last BalladOct 5, 20171 votes

"or challenge honestly"

Actually trying to keep people alive in this game, sometimes seemingly against their wishes, is pretty challenging. It's way more stressful trying to keep someone alive than it is trying to kill them.

"They don't have to worry about csing"

What support does? Barring thresh with relic, but that is both self imposed by taking relic, and aided by his kit.

"Trading with enemies"

What. All good supports trade. ALL. OF. THEM.

Soraka relies on making small, quick trades(auto + q, with intermittent autos when she can) to win her the lane. She is one of the best pre-6 lane bullies thanks to her regen on her q. Standing back and using w just gets you low.

Janna has to know when she can pressure the duo, and what enemies she shouldn't trade with. And she was recently reworked to give better options to trade.

Sona and Nami are lane bullies along with Soraka, and they want to trade constantly while using their w's to sustain themselves and their allies.

"Or exposing themselves to danger in team fights"

Right, because Sona and Soraka are not extremely positioning reliant in order to use their kits and live, and are not vulnerable to being dove or assassinated. At all.

And Janna and Nami don't have to be near the front lines in order to make the best use out of their kits. Oh no.

RaxistaichoOct 5, 20171 votes

Hey, look here, a Soraka/Janna main. How totally unbiased.

And for the record, you might note if you re-read my topic that I didn't mention Nami at all. Nami actually has to win early on because she can't rely (at least not to the same extent) on being able to stack Forbidden Idol items and spamming her heal/shield on her adc for freelo.

The Last BalladOct 12, 20171 votes

Hey, look here, a Soraka/Janna main. How totally unbiased.

And a frequent player of Zyra/Tahm (I play no champ exclusively enough to call myself a main of one). Those are my top 4 that I play on a regular basis(specifically Janna/Zyra/Tahm/Soraka, in a 7/6.67/6.33/6 mastery order). Morgana and Bard are in the 5/6th spots.

Anyway, wouldn't my frequent playing of them give me a better insight as to what their weaknesses are(especially compared to someone who mainly sees them on the enemy team)? When I face a Janna or a Soraka I can punish them readily, with the exception of being counter picked(even then it just becomes a skill matchup. Are they good enough at the champ to punish mine?).

And for the record, you might note if you re-read my topic that I didn't mention Nami at all.

That is true. I must have transplanted Lulu for Nami somehow. Everything else I said stands though.

EeyoreOct 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

We're discussing Coin adjustments internally, as well as a potential adjustment to Spellthief's. Not sure what will ship, but conversations are being had.

Could we make Spellthief's restore mana with the bonus damage? For example: "Damaging spells and attacks against champions and buildings grant 8 Gold and drain 15 Mana (dealt as magic damage)."

Honestly, I think the main issue with Coin is that the mana sustain is completely invaluable. I've even started taking Coin on Support Veigar over Relic (for stacking) and Spellthiefs... which just feels wrong, but nothing else competes.

I know you don't want to overlap the effects too much, but Ancient Coin is simply the most rewarding for casters - when it's suppose to be the stoic/passive option. Perhaps change the blue coin to grant you 25% Heal and Shield Power on your next heal, or something, rather than the mana refund. Or some other effect that still rewards Healers without being the optimal choice for offensive casters.

Silent PaceOct 3, 201712 votes

Spellthiefs needs buffs to make it contestable with Coin. That's it.

LightIsMyPathOct 3, 20172 votes

It doesn't need "buffs", it needs a very specific thing: More gold gain

DeltaNyxOct 3, 20174 votes

Same with Relic though.

With Bandit mastery and Coin, you can stand in lane and do nothing, and make your money (350 gold) back in about 7 minutes. With Bandit and Spellthief, you have to make sure to keep the cooldown going and make your money back in about 7:30-8 minutes. With Bandit and Relic, you have to keep the cooldown going and only take melee and cannons and make your money back in about 7:30-8 minutes.

Now, this was done in practice mode without anything interfering with my test, which we all know is not how things goes in a normal game. Plus we all know the woes of being that 4 Relic stack support (Thresh more so than others) late game trying to out last hit a Draven or a Lux.

Now, I realize that Relic is giving your ADC gold as well, so I can see why they may not want to increase the gold on that. Even Morde Blitz bot lanes both start Relic for sustain plus lane pushing ability. But still, it really sucks that you basically have to use stacks immediately so the cooldown is constantly going in order to meet the same amount of gold that coin gets for just existing near a dying enemy minion.

RozzetaOct 3, 201711 votes

It's the same shit Morello did back in season 3. There's nothing inherently wrong with the supports other that the environment in which they're playing, yet Riot will still try to nerf the supports kit rather than address the real issue.

Shuyin178Oct 3, 20175 votes

So the champions like Sona and Soraka who are suppose to be building coin in the first place are not suppose to build coin because you say so...... alright then.

LightIsMyPathOct 3, 20177 votes

Sona is a poke champion who procs spellthief with an autotarget ability. I'd say the fact she's buying coin should best declare the problem here...

Truly PridefulOct 3, 20171 votes

My main issue with coin is that it rewards such a crazy amount of gold for very little actual effort or risk compared to the other options when it should be the other way around. Less effort / risk = less reward. If this is the gold value they want the item to be making then the other two need some serious changes to become more appealing, I'm seeing some mage supports take coin at this point.

chipndip1Oct 3, 20173 votes

I've BEEN seeing Brand and Lux supports take coin (people shouldn't be using Lux support in the first place but the point stands). Like that's not even news to me. But people keep defending coin. On WHAT grounds?