Jarven has tank engage/CC, bruiser base damage, and assassin scaling

Khristophoros··46 votes·1,927 views

I will get downvoted for this but it's true and it's why he's always in pro play.

You'd think a guy who can knock up multiple enemies, shield himself + slow nearby enemies, and hard engage with a mobility limiting ring would be a hardcore tank, not to mention his little utility things like armor reduction and attack speed banner. But his numbers are tuned in an attempt to make him a bruiser and the result is this disgusting monster who dunks squishies to hell with assassin level burst and one of the best hard engages in the game.

When he came out he was a tank, and back then every champion had good scaling, but defensive items were really strong so building a tank like an assassin was just a yolo queue gimmick. After nerfing defensive items, champs like J4 started going for burst builds because why not? Nobody can itemize against it besides other tanks and bruisers. In most cases Riot tuned down tanks offensive scaling (AP Alistar is the best example) but for some reason with J4 they tried to keep his huge AD scaling and base damage. They reduced the width of his knock up but otherwise they left his amazing hard engage intact.

I've held this opinion about J4 for years but I was just talking to somebody and got reminded of it so I feel like sharing it with boards.

I guess it's one of those things where they want big flashy LCS plays to hype up the game and J4's ult is really epic (DEMACIA!!) so he should 1 shot people so commentators can scream into the mic every time.

50 Comments

Devilreaper XIII6 votes

its not just jarvan... most fighters/tanks can do this O.o his kit is similar to that of riven, only riven has a stun.

Khristophoros5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devilreaper XIII,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEAuoJfY,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-10-07T08:48:48.189+0000)

its not just jarvan... most fighters/tanks can do this O.o his kit is similar to that of riven, only riven has a stun.

This could possibly be most incorrect thing I've seen posted on boards. Riven is a joke compared to J4 when it comes to engage.

Here's a quick comparison. First is Riven attempting to initiate a teamfight from a position where the other team wouldn't see her without wards. Notice how slow and easy to react it is, and how her mobility doesn't even go far enough to get a good engage for her team. Next is J4 effortlessly landing his ult and setting up an easy teamfight for his team: https://puu.sh/xSdCJ/67760cbd20.webm

Now here is a practical example: https://youtu.be/X4ndyvi8ebM?t=20

The only fighter who can initiate a teamfight nearly as well is Wukong but other than his ult he doesn't have a tank's kit. J4's kit includes CC, durability, and utility.

For the sake of education here are some tanks initiating teamfights. This is what you want to go for as a tank. You don't want sloppy fights where both teams actually fight each other. Sloppy fights obviously happen a lot but it's not ideal, it's not your goal as a tank. https://youtu.be/awQ6JxnZMCw?t=18 https://youtu.be/FMowU5WflFY?t=20 (the initiating CC actually comes from Ori but this works too) https://youtu.be/9OJ4dOmwBF8?t=19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-LjdmD2kcs

I Main Swain1 votes

{quoted}

This could possibly be most incorrect thing I've seen posted on boards. Riven is a joke compared to J4 when it comes to engage.

Here's a quick comparison. First is Riven attempting to initiate a teamfight from a position where the other team wouldn't see her without wards. Notice how slow and easy to react it is, and how her mobility doesn't even go far enough to get a good engage for her team. Next is J4 effortlessly landing his ult and setting up an easy teamfight for his team: https://puu.sh/xSdCJ/67760cbd20.webm

Now here is a practical example: https://youtu.be/X4ndyvi8ebM?t=20

The only fighter who can initiate a teamfight nearly as well is Wukong but other than his ult he doesn't have a tank's kit. J4's kit includes CC, durability, and utility.

For the sake of education here are some tanks initiating teamfights. This is what you want to go for as a tank. You don't want sloppy fights where both teams actually fight each other. Sloppy fights obviously happen a lot but it's not ideal, it's not your goal as a tank. https://youtu.be/awQ6JxnZMCw?t=18 https://youtu.be/FMowU5WflFY?t=20 (the initiating CC actually comes from Ori but this works too) https://youtu.be/9OJ4dOmwBF8?t=19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-LjdmD2kcs

dang how freaking old is that 3rd video? i agree though, j4's damage potential is too high. had a game a while ago against a full lethality j4 who literally 1 shot me with his ult (that or he did something else for damage that was too fast for me to see but i dont think so)

on a related note, i miss when teamfights were actually like those fights in that video. now they just feel like crap fests of protect/kill the carry

Khristophoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Main Swain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEAuoJfY,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-10-07T16:03:06.578+0000)

dang how freaking old is that 3rd video? i agree though, j4's damage potential is too high. had a game a while ago against a full lethality j4 who literally 1 shot me with his ult (that or he did something else for damage that was too fast for me to see but i dont think so)

on a related note, i miss when teamfights were actually like those fights in that video. now they just feel like crap fests of protect/kill the carry

They can still be like that it's just hard to pull it off.

I Main Swain1 votes

{quoted}

They can still be like that it's just hard to pull it off.

im not saying they cant be, but they just never are.

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

{quoted}

This could possibly be most incorrect thing I've seen posted on boards. Riven is a joke compared to J4 when it comes to engage.

Here's a quick comparison. First is Riven attempting to initiate a teamfight from a position where the other team wouldn't see her without wards. Notice how slow and easy to react it is, and how her mobility doesn't even go far enough to get a good engage for her team. Next is J4 effortlessly landing his ult and setting up an easy teamfight for his team: https://puu.sh/xSdCJ/67760cbd20.webm

Now here is a practical example: https://youtu.be/X4ndyvi8ebM?t=20

The only fighter who can initiate a teamfight nearly as well is Wukong but other than his ult he doesn't have a tank's kit. J4's kit includes CC, durability, and utility.

For the sake of education here are some tanks initiating teamfights. This is what you want to go for as a tank. You don't want sloppy fights where both teams actually fight each other. Sloppy fights obviously happen a lot but it's not ideal, it's not your goal as a tank. https://youtu.be/awQ6JxnZMCw?t=18 https://youtu.be/FMowU5WflFY?t=20 (the initiating CC actually comes from Ori but this works too) https://youtu.be/9OJ4dOmwBF8?t=19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-LjdmD2kcs

they both have a gapcloser, they both melth you in like a split second, and they both have a shield. the only difference is that jarvan encloses and riven stuns. what i mean is this :

riven passive = bonus ad jarvan passive = bonus ad

riven Q = Riven lashes out in a series of strikes. This ability can be reactivated three times in a short time frame with the third hit knocking back nearby enemies. jarvan Q = Jarvan IV extends his lance, dealing physical damage and lowering the Armor of enemies in its path. Additionally, this will pull Jarvan to his Demacian Standard, knocking up enemies in his path

riven W =Riven emits a Ki Burst, damaging and stunning nearby enemies. jarvan W = Jarvan IV calls upon the ancient kings of Demacia to shield him from harm and slow surrounding enemies.

riven E = Riven steps forward a short distance and blocks incoming damage. jarvan E = Jarvan IV carries the pride of Demacia, passively granting him bonus Attack Speed. Activating Demacian Standard allows Jarvan IV to place a Demacian flag that deals magic damage on impact and grants Attack Speed to nearby allied champions.

riven R = Riven empowers her keepsake weapon with energy, and gains Attack Damage and Range. During this time, she also gains the ability to use Wind Slash, a powerful ranged attack, once jarvan R = Jarvan IV heroically leaps into battle at a target with such force that he terraforms the surrounding area to create an arena around them. Nearby enemies are damaged at the moment of impact.

riven and jarvan passive both give ad

rivens E gives a shield and jarvans W gives him a shield

rivens Q is a gapcloser Jarvans Q is a gapcloser

rivens W is a stun Jarvans R is an encloser

rivens R is an empowerd attack jarvans E is also an empowered attack

as i said they have similar kits. they both revolve around massive burst whilst protecting themselves and possibly even closing the gap with ranged attacks.

jarvan should be a tank, and riven should be a fighter and yet they are similar.....

Paroe5 votes

Isnt J4 a bruiser?

Warwick Main21 votes

{quoted}

Isnt J4 a bruiser?

J4 is a diver. Divers: JarvanIV Vi Warwick

Divers are high mobility fighters who are designed to have less dmg than a juggernaut but enough mobility to get into the backline and remain a damage threat if left unchecked. Probably my favorite sub class next to skirmishers.

Bârd9 votes

Less damage than a juggernaut, but generally much more burst than juggernauts.

No juggernaut save for Illaoi can match the burst of a diver, but no diver save for WW can match the persistent damage of the juggernauts

DragonShea4 votes

{quoted}

Less damage than a juggernaut, but generally much more burst than juggernauts.

No juggernaut save for Illaoi can match the burst of a diver, but no diver save for WW can match the persistent damage of the juggernauts

Some divers are similar to juggs Warwick and Renekton's mobility ain't that high compared to other divers but they have high sustain like some juggs have.

Tychusfindlay9181 votes

{quoted}

Some divers are similar to juggs Warwick and Renekton's mobility ain't that high compared to other divers but they have high sustain like some juggs have.

Renekton only has high innate sustain in the early game, but he gets screwed over by the fact that his own q limits his max healing potential quite heavily.

Compare it to darius's decimate, a similar ability, and you'll realize that juggernauts have way better sustain throughout the game (except maybe early game).

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Renekton only has high innate sustain in the early game, but he gets screwed over by the fact that his own q limits his max healing potential quite heavily.

Compare it to darius's decimate, a similar ability, and you'll realize that juggernauts have way better sustain throughout the game (except maybe early game).

Darius can heal himself for around 880 to 1200 HP if he's low on HP, Renekton's heal is capped at 450 and item 3065 increases darius's max heal while renekton's cap is just reached faster. So yeah juggs to have better baseline sustain in the mid to late game.

SSShutTheDuckUp2 votes

Irelia? She is more DPS than burst focused and she is a diver. Same with XinZhao with his low CD abilities.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=K9 Unit,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEAuoJfY,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-10-07T10:02:37.423+0000)

J4 is a diver. Divers: JarvanIV Vi Warwick

Divers are high mobility fighters who are designed to have less dmg than a juggernaut but enough mobility to get into the backline and remain a damage threat if left unchecked. Probably my favorite sub class next to skirmishers.

... Divers are fighters with an assassination pattern but who lack proper escapes. They make the choice between engaging or running away. Also, a bruiser can be a diver. A bruiser is a champion with high bases and good ratios so that they can build one or two AD items and then tank while still being relevant.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Isn't that exactly just divers+juggernauts though? I mean all the AD divers at least.

And builds change too, does that mean that sometimes some champs are brusiers and sometimes they're assassins or tanks or skirmishers?

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Isn't that exactly just divers+juggernauts though? I mean all the AD divers at least.

And builds change too, does that mean that sometimes some champs are brusiers and sometimes they're assassins or tanks or skirmishers?

Fighters are melee champions who scale with AD and do not play like a mage. Bruisers are a subset of fighter halfway between tank. They have high base damage and good scaling. Juggernauts are a subset of bruiser with high base damage and good scaling but DONT have an assassination pattern - theyre generally immobile. Divers are a subset of bruiser with high base damage and good scaling but DO have an assassination pattern - theyre generally lack escapes to go with their engage.

Build lets you specify what you want to do, but the champion will always belong to a specific archetype. Sure you CAN do full tank sion, but why waste your huge AD scaling and not buy a cleaver+tiamat? Your kit is designed to function with one or two AD items, unlike champions such as braum and leona who ARENT designed to have AD in their builds and DONT scale off it.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

No, bruisers and fighters are the name thing, riot renamed bruisers->fighters years ago.

Divers and Juggernauts are their subrole.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

So you're saying fighters are the skirmishers.

And Irelia,jax, fiora,jarvan,Shyvana, tryndamere, camilie and a bunch of others do not have classes because they can adapt their builds to suit their needs.

I think i´ll stick with Riots subclasses, they make a lot more sense since they are based of playstyle rather than builds.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying fighters are the skirmishers.

And Irelia,jax, fiora,jarvan,Shyvana, tryndamere, camilie and a bunch of others do not have classes because they can adapt their builds to suit their needs.

I think i´ll stick with Riots subclasses, they make a lot more sense since they are based of playstyle rather than builds.

... No skirmisher is a sub class of diver who specializes in going in, disengaging, and going back in. Theyre less like assassins than traditional divers and play more like spell casters.

Also ALL of those champions belong to the fighter class and can indeed adapt to their build because they have the scalings to do it. Some fighters, like rammus, diana, and malphite have a harder time building bruiser.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Rammus and malphite haven't built any damage for the last 3 seasons as i recall, they´ve been straight tanks for ages now.

Diana was played as a tank knockoff like ekko was for a while, but she stopped and has since then gone back to being much more of an assassin whenever she actually works well.

So which champions do you consider to be bruisers for arguments sake? Give me a few examples for it hasn't made much sense so far.

After all, most melee's do in fact scale well and they often have a bit of base damage.

And skirmishers these days play more like these highly mobile guys that like to go all in extremely hard, thats at least how Irelia and Jax plays, trynda too.

Fiora does dash around a bit but often it goes down to going all in after baiting and blocking with her W.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Bruisers and Fighters are the same thing, riot renamed bruisers to fighter for some bizzare reason years ago.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

... Divers are fighters with an assassination pattern but who lack proper escapes. They make the choice between engaging or running away. Also, a bruiser can be a diver. A bruiser is a champion with high bases and good ratios so that they can build one or two AD items and then tank while still being relevant.

The first part is correct but the second part is not. A bruiser is another word of fighter(diver and juggernauts) Divers have decent bonus AD radio because they can't rely on their base AD as well as Juggs can.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Divers are Bruisers still.

Bruiser=Fighters which is split into Divers and Juggernauts.

DariusDemiurge3 votes

It is fine.

AoD - King of the League QWER Lyric: http://youtu.be/ZLQa-pqkmKg

Khristophoros2 votes

{quoted}

It is fine.

AoD - King of the League QWER Lyric: http://youtu.be/ZLQa-pqkmKg

this makes it ok until the next time I get 1 shot by a J4

surprisingly i dont remember the last time it happened though

WalkingInACircle2 votes

Jarvan won't one shot anything unless he builds pure lethality.

Catastrophic1 votes

What kind of inhuman turd downvoted you?

DariusDemiurge1 votes

{quoted}

What kind of inhuman turd downvoted you?

Could be one of two types. 1. Someone that dislikes the embodiment of perfection that is Morgana, my love.

Or 2. Some that recently was treated like shyvana by a j4 if you know what I mean. :3c

I'm leaning towards 2 this time around since the song is a classic among the nerd community of league. A couple of em.

Veraska3 votes

Yeah i would be obliged to agree that jarvan is a bit overtuned but hes the last melee carry standing in adc utopia so id prefer we just buff over melee divers/assassins to his level then nerf him

Khristophoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Skaarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEAuoJfY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-10-07T08:04:51.188+0000)

Yeah i would be obliged to agree that jarvan is a bit overtuned but hes the last melee carry standing in adc utopia so id prefer we just buff over melee divers/assassins to his level then nerf him

I'm not exactly sure if I think he's actually overtuned but I find it really awkward that he has a tank kit but isn't tuned as a tank.

Veraska8 votes

I think its alright tbh, its cool when champions can be flexible so long as there's tradeoffs being made between his tank and carry builds, ive seen cinderhulk/knights vow jarvans bust backliners off base stats alone tho and that doesnt seem right to me

Friendly Ram3 votes

Dunno i like J4 as a support due to all the above mentioned utility.

Khristophoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Friendly Ram,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEAuoJfY,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-10-07T16:10:59.041+0000)

Dunno i like J4 as a support due to all the above mentioned utility.

support is a position but different roles can be played there

IcyPepper3 votes

I will get downvoted for this

Is this even necessary

Blåbæret3 votes

OP is clueless. J4 is picked because he's literally the only champion in the entire game that can reliably engage on an ADC without getting chain CCed to death.

That's why he's picked. He has high scalings because he's too squishy for a supposedly tank champion.

RainbowIcee2 votes

To add to this which is mostly on point BTW. J4 can dash a long distance, CC and hit hard really quickly. He has a very quick engage and in this game were you pop fairly easy he's very useful. Tanks like Galio Maokai will grab you and stay on you till you die before you do anything. J4 on the other hand is hard to catch! lastly he does a lot of damage with his ult because the utility of his ult is rather weak. Most used champions can escape his ult if they don't have flash up or are in a position were being stuck in his ult is not threatening as he is diving the team J4 will be on their turf not the other way around. This why riot made his ult hurt so much, other wise it would be entirely pointless and useless.

"I'm J4 imma dive the enemy team and get them stuck with em while i do no damage " that's retarded.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

{quoted}

OP is clueless. J4 is picked because he's literally the only champion in the entire game that can reliably engage on an ADC without getting chain CCed to death.

Malphite? Hecarim? Nautilus? Zac?

Miraweave2 votes

Yeah, Jarvan's pretty ridiculous.

His ult is also just bullshit. It basically reads "kill target champion who doesn't have a dash" for most of the midgame.

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

he's always in pro play.

He was only picked up recently in pro-play after not being seen for seasons lul

YuGiHo2 votes

Why are you trying to kill our only ad tank? look at Ornn , that mess is what happens when riot trys to make a tank thats not just hp and ap ratios.

SSShutTheDuckUp1 votes

Well, he is flexible, but that's not a bad thing, IMO. If he builds full damage he is pretty squishy and if he build full tank his damage is underwhelming. His number might be a bit high, but I do not think is the case, yet I might be wrong, because I have neither played him recently, nor seen him too often in my games. Even if that's the case it would be just numbers being too high, but kit-wise he is fine

Khristophoros1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEAuoJfY,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-10-07T19:34:08.513+0000)

Well, he is flexible, but that's not a bad thing, IMO. If he builds full damage he is pretty squishy and if he build full tank his damage is underwhelming. His number might be a bit high, but I do not think is the case, yet I might be wrong, because I have neither played him recently, nor seen him too often in my games. Even if that's the case it would be just numbers being too high, but kit-wise he is fine

This is true but I think people only build him damage lol

And he's not really super squishy because of his shield and high base health.

SSShutTheDuckUp1 votes

Well, I usually build some mix of damage and defense on him. His shield also scales with his HP, so without some HP items the shield doesn't do hell of a lot. Don't get me wrong - J4 isn't Zyra level of squishy, but if he doesn't build tanky he gets popped pretty fast in team fights.

DaNinad1 votes

if he builds damage shouldn't he do that damage?

Blåbæret1 votes

His shield is useless though. It literally does nothing.

Fairyfleur1 votes

I'm tired of seeing j4 picked or banned in almost every game I play

NGNL Asian1 votes

He has one weakness: cds

Edit: And mana cost

LordGeovanni1 votes

Bruisers are by pretty much a mix between a dps assassin and tank

JarPoop IV1 votes

He is one of the few generalist left in the game like renekton. J4 just has MUCH better engage and shitty fighting potential

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