Can we Please not remove Runeglaive??

Cherysse·Dec 30, 2015·15 votes·1,701 views

35 Comments

CindikleDec 30, 20157 votes

There's nothing it does, that Echo wont do better.

The proc scales a little less on Echo. But 20 extra AP should easily make up the difference within the champions kit.

For a jungler, 10% MS > 10% CDR. I would like to see a changed added to Echo though. "Basic ability cooldowns reduced by 1 second when proc hits a large or epic neutral monster". This would help those who need spells to clear. But give almost no combat boost itself. Also with Lichbane having CDR. Those that want it can still get it. The rest of them will likely get Morello or Athene.

In terms of Lichbane+Ruinic Echo vs Runeglave + Luden's Echo. The first one is stronger.

Ruinic's higher base damage, means a stronger early game.

Of the top 10 Lichbane users. Only Akali does not commonly build Ludens. It's a very common pairing. Even on Diana. So unless you plan on going Akali jungle, you'll likely be building both anyway. Meaning this change is stronger on all of the AP junglers.

Most AP junglers don't have the cooldown spamming to use enough Runeglave procs to make up the difference. Runeglave also doesn't help in poking. While Echo will. Unless your AP jungle Ezreal. Which will build Lichbane anyway. If he gets that far...(don't do Ezreal AP jungle plz).

The new AP jungle item is either a buff or come out equal for every AP jungler. Only one MAYBE can complain is Karthus being able to proc Runeglave often enough. But his AA animation is so horrible you'd be dumb to try for this. He's better off with the stronger pokes.

Edit: Also, this item is actually fairly safe on laners who take Smite like AP Ezreal. It's weak enough compared to Ludens that you are getting what you payed for. While Runeglave has gotten multiple nerfs because of AP Ezreal and similar champions who abused it.

NostolgicSkiesDec 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

There's nothing it does, that Echo wont do better.

The proc scales a little less on Echo. But 20 extra AP should easily make up the difference within the champions kit.

For a jungler, 10% MS > 10% CDR. I would like to see a changed added to Echo though. "Basic ability cooldowns reduced by 1 second when proc hits a large or epic neutral monster". This would help those who need spells to clear. But give almost no combat boost itself. Also with Lichbane having CDR. Those that want it can still get it. The rest of them will likely get Morello or Athene.

In terms of Lichbane+Ruinic Echo vs Runeglave + Luden's Echo. The first one is stronger.

Ruinic's higher base damage, means a stronger early game.

Of the top 10 Lichbane users. Only Akali does not commonly build Ludens. It's a very common pairing. Even on Diana. So unless you plan on going Akali jungle, you'll likely be building both anyway. Meaning this change is stronger on all of the AP junglers.

Most AP junglers don't have the cooldown spamming to use enough Runeglave procs to make up the difference. Runeglave also doesn't help in poking. While Echo will. Unless your AP jungle Ezreal. Which will build Lichbane anyway. If he gets that far...(don't do Ezreal AP jungle plz).

The new AP jungle item is either a buff or come out equal for every AP jungler. Only one MAYBE can complain is Karthus being able to proc Runeglave often enough. But his AA animation is so horrible you'd be dumb to try for this. He's better off with the stronger pokes.

Edit: Also, this item is actually fairly safe on laners who take Smite like AP Ezreal. It's weak enough compared to Ludens that you are getting what you payed for. While Runeglave has gotten multiple nerfs because of AP Ezreal and similar champions who abused it.

evelyns hate spike was runeblades dream. she proc'd that thing all day everyday. . .this new jungle item is another RIP Evelyn moment for me =(

CindikleDec 31, 20152 votes

AP Eve built both items.

Lichbane+Runic Echo > Runeglave+Ludens Echo

Still a buff to her. She also doesn't always have time to stop moving to AA. A lot of the power in her Q is that she can attack while moving. AA'ing breaks this cycle.

If you're not building AP, you're probably not building Runeglave. Likely going AD or tanky AD. In which Trinity or IBG is better. Even if you're trying to go hybrid, Runic is a poor item. Only really good if you build a lot of AP.

NostolgicSkiesDec 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

AP Eve built both items.

Lichbane+Runic Echo > Runeglave+Ludens Echo

Still a buff to her. She also doesn't always have time to stop moving to AA. A lot of the power in her Q is that she can attack while moving. AA'ing breaks this cycle.

If you're not building AP, you're probably not building Runeglave. Likely going AD or tanky AD. In which Trinity or IBG is better. Even if you're trying to go hybrid, Runic is a poor item. Only really good if you build a lot of AP.

yes lichbane is better but now it becomes another high cost item in a low gold giving jungle. and for a jungler who has been denied fair starting stats in which she is forced into a rune page to fix and then consider once eve buys rylais so she can stick better, the in fight movment will lower proc chance vs being able to stick and proc runeglaive consecutively in a fight. runeglaive ludens was only good cause u didnt have to waste time farming a jungle item then the lichbane and it was to make up the dmg for replacing lichbane with runeglaive. eve never got lichbane until she had no choice but to sell runeglaive and trade out cause the dmg of runeglaive+ludens was comparable to lich bane most the game and didnt require the higher farm demand. imo this is a blow to eves early game which is a blow to evelyns over all health as a champ. especially when she is already imo in an unhealth state with all the pre season changes to the jungle.

CindikleDec 31, 20151 votes

You're missing the point here.

She gets both.

Both Luden's Echo and Lichbane cost 3200.

Runic Echo is overall stronger in every way over Ruinglave.Stronger early game before the jungler has AP. Lichbane's better scaling covers any damage lost between the scaling. And often a kit's AP scaling alone will cover it or equal it. Also the AP is better for %hp abilities like Eve's ult.

She's losing nothing.

NostolgicSkiesDec 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You're missing the point here.

She gets both.

Both Luden's Echo and Lichbane cost 3200.

Runic Echo is overall stronger in every way over Ruinglave.Stronger early game before the jungler has AP. Lichbane's better scaling covers any damage lost between the scaling. And often a kit's AP scaling alone will cover it or equal it. Also the AP is better for %hp abilities like Eve's ult.

She's losing nothing.

as far as i am concerned evelyn lost her jungle item. cause when forced to buy aether wisp early to finish runic echo i am just going to choose ludens over finishing into runic echo. runic echo seems easily neglectable since the build path will now be similar to ludens only i will now get the early dmg faster if i just get the needless why get the proc for the early mana regain and dmg when i need base mana not mana regen even from the proc. i may even got striaght lichabne instead of finishing out jungle item. i see a lot of games where i may see no point in ever going beyond tier 1 jungle item unless i want to farm out devour for better procing of items worth procing.

CindikleDec 31, 20152 votes

If this is a real concern. Then the problem is Evelyn. Which honestly, she has a lot of them. Really nothing new.

As Eve jungle though. You really want that slowing smite. That's why you finish it. After that the rest of the upgrade to your jungle item becomes very cost effective between having it and not having it. There's no reason to skip it.

If the prices don't change, we're talking about a lot of stats for 1500g. Over half of what you're paying for Ludens.

NostolgicSkiesDec 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If this is a real concern. Then the problem is Evelyn. Which honestly, she has a lot of them. Really nothing new.

As Eve jungle though. You really want that slowing smite. That's why you finish it. After that the rest of the upgrade to your jungle item becomes very cost effective between having it and not having it. There's no reason to skip it.

If the prices don't change, we're talking about a lot of stats for 1500g. Over half of what you're paying for Ludens.

my problem is the lack of base mana u loose from runicglaive, evelyn cant spam and deal her dmg if she basis it solely on an early game proc that only restores mana when your in the jungle. there where already concerns about eves mana gating, then the addition of a mana cost on W on the basis she would be getting flat mana through runeglaive. with it now being gone it puts her mana issues back on the table. thats why i say its another RiP evelyn moment. how can u hate spike early and not run out of mana in 2 seconds when you cant even proc the mana regen during a fight. and as for chilling smite, u can gan chilling smite by upgrading to tier one and leaving it. i feel people will now be forced to question should i even finish runic echo or go straight for lichbane cause i need the mana. in evelyns case i feel the logical choice would be to get smite upgrade leave it and go lichbane for the mana u need early. this could be said for fizz, and diana jungle as well. imo the new item causes a lot of questions when it comes to mana gating, since they nerf'd and buffed ap junglers based on the build path of runeglaive last season, i find it hard to believe there wont be any issues with the new ap jungle item.

CindikleDec 31, 20151 votes

Nothing stopping you form just buying the mana crystal and finishing Runic Echo if that's the problem.

If this really becomes an issue. Again, it's an Evelyn problem. The problem can be fixed with just her. Instead of Riot trying to balance two AP items for one jungler.

If early mana becomes a problem. That's a very easy fix.

Even then. It's already improved.

Runeglave restores 8% of missing mana on use.

Runic Echo restores 18% of missing mana. Topped off with it's effect dealing 250% bonus damage to large monsters. Not only will it clear faster(spending less mana). It will restore more unless you proc Runeglave 3 times. Something Evelyn can do, sure. But it should balance out.

You'll clear faster, you'll gank faster, you'll get more AP. You'll be able to build Lichbane(better matchup than current). And you'll trade early flat mana for better mana restoring.

Only time this comes as a downside, is if you're in a gank that is taking too long to succeed or fail. But at the same time, if you had the higher power of Ruinic Echo, that gank is more likely to succeed to where you don't even need that extra mana.

You found once single minimal down side to this change. But all of the advantages easily cover it.

AP mids don't take chalice if they plan to get a kill. They start buidling AP. Chalice is for mana sustain. Not power.

If you're ganking, your thought prosses shouldn't be "how can I last longer in this fight". It should be "How can I get this kill before they can get help or escape". The new jungle item does that.

Not even sure how you're having that many mana problems.

We'll say you're doing a level 6 gank. Rank 3 Q.

Q - 24 mana W - 40 mana E - 50 mana R - 100 mana

Assuming you use W and R once. E twice. 240 mana. 482 max mana. You can get up to 10 Q's before any other mana regen is factored in. Probably getting an extra 2-3 before you run oom.

Not using R(or are pre-6) means another 2-3 Q's. Not using a second E means 2 more Q's.

Also by this point, you probably have Runic Echo and have started Lichbane. So you have that extra mana. Ganking before 5 means a lower cost Q as well. So more 50% more Q's by the mana difference.

If you are really needing more mana than this. You're using too much mana to clear camps, the gank failed and you're not walking away when you should or the gank turned into a bigger fight/counter gank.

By the time anything else matters, you'll be starting Lichbane.

jerradwolfJan 1, 20162 votes

this is probably close to what people were saying about fiddlesticks when runeglaive came out. "its probably a fiddlesticks problem" >.> eve doesn't build ludens if you want to win, and sheen is far superior early game than just flat ap. she needs to snowball otherwise shes done. an early ludens isn't going to help get her fed like a reliable on hit sheen will. there is no point in saying that the new ap jungle item will be better or runeglaive will be because different champs require different things at certain points in the game. if you want to jungle fiddle or malz or zyra or whoever thats ap. the new item will be far superior. if you want to jungle fizz, diana, eve, or even ap rengar then you need that runeglaive.

CindikleJan 2, 20161 votes

Fiddle was a big deal at the time because he was about the only AP jungler that could survive the jungle at that time. That couldn't make much use out of Runeglave. Most AP's at that time had very hard time there. So Fiddle losing his main AP item for a Sheen proc was a big deal. Jungle has changed enough that this shouldn't really factor in.

Runeglave wasn't even a very accepted item. Because it was niche. Still is. A lot of people saw this. People wanted changes to the jungle. People waned a jungle AP item that made more AP options. Something it greatly suffered from. New item does this.

Sheen will give her ~60 damage on her AA.

Wisp and Amp tomb gives 50 AP. But costs slightly more. So we'll say 45 AP. Sheen no longer gives AP.

2 rank 2 Q's and an E is worth 130% AP as damage. This turns 45 AP into 58.5 damage. But this will be 50ap before finishing Echo. Which doesn't take much. So you will be stronger before finishing the item outside of that small window between finishing Wisp+amp(in which you'd have amp+amp, or 40AP, which costs less than Sheen, so that's earlier power vs Sheen).

Roughly the same overall. Personally give the bonus to Echo, but I'm bias.

So in the end. There is a very small window where Sheen can out damage Wisp+Amp, but not by much.

For Eve the only real difference is mana vs move speed. Move speed makes kills happen. Mana means maybe you wont have to back for mana as soon. This time frame is very small. You likely will have full mana from blue buff, which probably just wore off. Mana shouldn't be a real issue. While move speed is always good.

And Eve has poor scaling with only a rank 2 E. Most other champions will out damage Sheen with 2x Amp tomb. Which costs less than Sheen. I think Fizz is about the only other one with poor enough scales where this is debatable.

There's nothing Runeglave has over Echo. Extra mana is it. Which is something you can make up for in other ways. Echo has more damage in 95% of cases. Equal the other 5. Move speed is far more useful than CDR.

jerradwolfJan 2, 20161 votes

possible runeglaive/sheen users that always have an on hit/lich jungle: Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fizz

possible runic echo users and some are pushing it: Annie Gragas Malzahar Fiddlesticks Velkoz Zyra Chogath

most of the champs wouldn't even be considered able to jungle, a good pick with the new item, or would be better off going tank but COULD go ap. "People waned a jungle AP item that made more AP options. Something it greatly suffered from. New item does this." honestly, yeah you could attempt to jungle with these shitty jungle ap mages who shouldn't be in the jungle because thats not what their champion kits were designed for, but runeglaive had its place with the champions that could actually hold their own in the jungle instead of these toss up picks that the new item brings to the table.

sure it may be fun trying out zyra jungle with the new item or annie jungle, but i doubt you'll see any of that in ranked at high levels.

CindikleJan 3, 20161 votes

Having synergy doesn't mean it will be stronger. Unless you can actually repeatedly activate and use that Sheen proc. It will not overshadow what Runic brings.

Last post I explained how the damage is roughly the same on the worst examples for my own case.

Diana will out damage Sheen through AP scalings alone. Ekko as well.

Elise is up in the air. She doesn't have the instant damage scalings to match Sheen with flat AP till she has Runic finished. About the only character listed that is actually going to be hit by this change. Although for a small window. Don't think the difference will be enough to matter and Thunderlords should help cover the missing scaling.

I don't think Elise really has the cooldowns to make the most of a Sheen proc though. If she suffers at all, it will be that very small window before the jungle item is finished and the battle is Sheen vs AP. Once Runic is finish, it becomes better.

Question after that becomes is Lichbane worth it, as she doesn't often build both. It's mostly gotten because all of her options are not all that strong. I think this will slightly(very slightly) nerf her early game, but buff late game.

jerradwolfJan 3, 20161 votes

you completely missed what my post was saying.

after going through all the possible ap junglers that even have a slight kit for ganking or sustaining in the jungle, who the hell did they make runic echo for.

the people who aren't able to proc a sheen or weave their attacks have such a horrible early and middle game in the jungle that most AD/tank/on hit junglers will completely tear them apart.

CindikleJan 3, 20161 votes

Your post was talking about Runeglave being wanted by champions. And you don't like the idea of AP junglers.

Runeglave is inferior in almost every way to Runic.

This whole change is options.

Look at Brand. He can jungle already, this will help him with that. He is an AP mage that doesn't need a lot of gold to work. Perfect for the jungle.

Now your enemy mid is Yasou or someone everyone hates.

Brand goes jungle, your jungle goes mid lane to counter Yasou.

Or two champions pick up smite. They can rotate between lanes based on the situation. Say mid gets ganked. Jungle takes mid to hold tower. Mid swaps to jungle. Jungle gets the extra xp/gold. Mid isn't as far behind from clearing the jungle as it spawns till they swap back.

This new item doesn't even create new jungle options. All of those champions can jungle with some success. Will we have people feeding in games because they suddenly thought AP Ez jungle was now suddenly more viable than before? Sadly we will for a while. After that things will go back to normal. But playing an AP jungle wont feel so horrible like it has for so very long.

I don't see us getting new "meta" AP junglers out of this. The current ones just wont be as niche.

And they did this while minimizing the negative effects on the current AP junglers. That's the important thing to take in here. The current one are even getting a buff outside of maybe Elise.

jerradwolfJan 4, 20161 votes

well i disagree completely. the points you keep bringing up make no sense to me as to why they do not just add runic echos instead of taking away runeglaive.

CindikleJan 5, 20161 votes

The base reason is. (Mostly my guess)

Balancing one item is easier than two. And the two fill such similar rolls there's no reason for both.

If a champion is really found too strong or too weak because of this change. It'll be easier to change that champion around that single item vs two items.

While we can often question Riot's balance team logic.. a lot... It probably is a hard very time consuming job. They have a lot to factor in.

If Else's clear/ganking power is really hit by this change. They can increase her low rank base numbers, leaving the higher ones alone for example. As the only time this change should really effect her is the very early game. Maybe a boost to base AD, reduction to AD scaling. Since AD is often the stronger jungle clearing stat.

If Eve really suffers from that loss of mana from an early Sheen. She can get a boost to base mana, and a reduction to scaling mana to match.

Edit: Sorry if these replies are spamming you. It's showing I replied to myself. Never had one chain this long. So I was copy-pasting them. Learn something new every day.

Avios1Dec 30, 20154 votes

I don't understand why they just add the Runic echos, and the Runeglaive. would fix everything tbh.

CherysseDec 30, 20154 votes

Because Rito's Logic... thats why.. I mean we can keep both, anyways you can only build one jungler item

Cogito Ergo Sol Dec 30, 20151 votes

There are a few AP junglers who don't benefit from Runeglaive so they replace it with something viable on everyone, since Lichbane is a very very situational item they replace it with something that can work on every AP jungler, plus now this should be overall good since now AP junglers can take lich bane again (Only the few who benefit from it) If we had then why not another type of warrior?There's only one enchantment for every type of jungler. But yes, I would personally like to see them both since you can't take more than 1 anyway.

CherysseDec 30, 20151 votes

True, and I say this considering that Echo takes a lot more time to charge than SpellSword (Runeglaive)

Big LincolnDec 30, 20153 votes

there are two enchantments for AD junglers

warrior is for AD champs who want to bump up their damage ratios, and devourer is supremely heavy on auto-attackers. only tanks and mages have one each; and two of four common AP jungles (Elise, Fiddle) are able to go both, and tanks with frequent spellcasts can use Runeglaive very well.

A luden's effect doesn't benefit everyone; it requires much more AP to be as effective as Runeglaive and it's harmful to people who used their base AD and a little bit of AP to make it hurt, so it's mostly for glass-cannon, high AP burst mages. Riot would do well to promote the diversity they preach by keeping both

Sona PingDec 31, 20152 votes

Not quite; there is an enchantment for AD Junglers and an enchantment for AS Junglers, i.e. Master Yi.

The problem is that the runerglaive's actual niche, mana regen, is now made redundant, which hurts especially well because it locked out other Sheen items.

Big LincolnDec 31, 20152 votes

AS junglers are generally AD-scaling champions. The only exception to this that immediately comes to mind is Diana, who can take Runeglaive or Devourer and do well.

I like Runeglaive as an economy Triforce. 100% of base AD and converted entirely to magic damage makes it very appealing for people who can spam it. Good on tanks with low cooldown rotations; Sejuani, Zac, Nautilus are my favorites. It was nice not having Cinderhulk be forced down my throat and I could take either.

Sona PingDec 31, 20151 votes

Nope; AS junglers are generally AS-scaling champions. They are champions who build AS and on-hit items that have synergy with abilities in their kit like other on-hit sources of damage; they usually have pretty poor AD scaling (e.g. like Warwick only has one AD ratio in his entire kit, and that's on his Ultimate!) That's the reason why the Phantom Hit passive on Sated Devourer is so good on them and why the Devourer gives attack speed, it scales their abilities. The item that gives attack speed and zero AD is not an item for AD champions, it's for Attack-Speed champions.

Slamurai JackJan 1, 20162 votes

Look at it this way: you now have an excuse to buy the massively superior item 3100 instead.

jerradwolfJan 1, 20162 votes

i agree man. i main evelynn and this makes me so sad. people who say that eve builds ludens too don't know how to play eve. i build ludens on her when it first came out and it was ok, but she needs to be tankier otherwise shes going to get rammed to hell and back. taking up another one of my item slots to buy lichbane sucks. why even jungle anymore. just go mid eve and troll who fkin cares. i don't know why they wouldn't leave it in along with the new enchantment. no reason to take something out that helps out quite a few ap on hit junglers

MatezoideJan 2, 20162 votes

Can we stop removing perfectly usable items for no reason outside of "Because we can lol muh diversity"?

EndlessSorcererDec 30, 20151 votes

I'm going to miss it on Diana, but it will be nice to have an enchantment for Fiddlesticks again.

ModWulf HelhammerDec 30, 20151 votes

I know one of my friends is really going to miss it. She plays a bruiser-y hybrid Diana, who was able to fight a fed Darius and win.

RisenDarkKnightDec 31, 20151 votes

Yeah jungle Fizz is going to miss it. I feel like most other junglers won't mind too much though.

RandomoniumDec 31, 20151 votes

My experience with Runic Echoes on the PBE is that its a better jungle item on most (if not all) champions who would use it. The movement speed is a huge buff that helps junglers have more presence around the map and the proc deals a ton of damage when combined with Thunderlord's.