[Post of the Day] What if we gave essence reaver an in-between item

ModCaptainMårvelous·Sep 15, 2014·35 votes·7,638 views

Mana Viper (Ballpark ranges. Nothing 'set in stone') + 200g

10-15 Damage 8-10% Life Steal 0-5% CDR Effect: Restores 1-4% of the damage you deal as mana (based on missing mana)

Essence reaver's biggest problem is that there is no "midway" item. Look at and it's . Great mid-tier item, still boasts a slow. If I have mana problems now, in the early game, I don't want to rush an Essence Reaver. It just doesn't have the pure statistical power that Infinity Edge or Shiv has. Furthermore, I'm paying a lot JUST for mana.

With this item, two huge avenues open up:

Mana-hungry ADCs have an item they can buy and hold off on upgrading until their mana issues become large enough to warrent it.
A new mid-tier item opens up the possibility for diversifying build paths and inducting new items into the game. Imagine mana viper + brutilizer, an item that gives back mana for hitting people with spells. Or maybe mana viper and bilgewater cutlass, having an active that offers a temporary boost to mana and health instead of Bork's purely HP drain.

31 Comments

DeflarSep 15, 20148 votes

This is a sound idea for the Essence Reaver. I agree that it can benefit from a mid-level item like the Cutlass or Brutalizer.

Right now the Reaver builds from the BF Sword and Vamp Scepter, similar to the Bloodthirster, but the BT is cheaper than the Reaver, so it's overlooked, even on mana hog champs.

Here's my take on how the Essence Reaver should be build

Mid Tier Item: Scythe of Mind Stealing Builds from: item 1053 , item 1027 +250 Mana +15 Attack Damage +8% Lifesteal Unique Passive: 5% of damage dealt by basic attacks restores mana (flat restoration) Cost: 1300 (100)

Essence Reaver Builds from: Scythe of Mind Stealing, item 3134 +300 Mana +45 Attack Damage +12% Lifesteal Unique Passive: +10% Cooldown Reduction Unique Passive: +10% Armor Penetration Unique Passive: 10% of damage dealt restores mana (flat restoration) Cost: 3000 (363)

This way, it trades in the 80 damage for more features that make it a little more enticing for all mana using AD champs, not just the mana hogs, and certain ability using champs, like Lucian, Jayce, etc., would benefit from all those stats.

It's just my take on how the Essence Reaver should be redesigned. I don't feel it should be a BF Sword item, and it can benefit from being an item like BotRK, Ghostblade, etc, a good early to mid game item that can allow one to harass without being gimped by saving up for a BF Sword, and it'll save those who DO buy the BF Sword to get the Infinity Edge or Bloodthirster. Only trade off is it can take away from the Manamune, but how many of us actually build that item anyways?

PentaWattSep 15, 20141 votes

I feel like this is what the item needs. Like you said, it's very expensive and there are many other items more important. including the bit of sustain and armor penetration would make this a much more worthy item for ad carries that need that mana heavy waver clear or rely on mana.

you could even add 10% cdr just to make it a more wave clear helping item for champs that rely on abilites to do the wave clear i.e. comes to mind.

TiropatSep 16, 20141 votes

Urgot would love your item

acepil0tSep 16, 20142 votes

A song suddenly hopped into my head.... I believe its title is "Hallelujah Chorus".

RideanovanSep 17, 20141 votes

What if there were TWO new items for essence reaver to build out of? Your "Scythe of Mind Stealing", plus another item that had all the stats of brutalizer, and the same build path/cost, except instead of armor pen, it had 12% spell vamp. So the final build essence reaver would be:

+300 Mana +45 Attack Damage +12% Lifesteal Unique Passive: +20% Spellvamp Unique Passive: +10% Cooldown Reduction Unique Passive: 10% of Physical Damage dealt restored as Mana.

Fat of the LandSep 17, 20141 votes

Just a correction, BT is more expensive than Reaver by 300 gold.

RiotRiot BaconhawkSep 16, 20147 votes

I dig the idea in order to get Jayce something in-between. Maybe even Varus, Ez, or Ashe?? item 3134 + item 3508 on Ashe? pls.

AD casters in general need something IMO, but the issue I see is ensuring you don't make their spells + AAs more powerful than AA-based champs like Vayne, Caitlyn, but similar in power to these AA casters when they have their crit/lifesteal.

(might be talking out my youknowwhat here, I'm not a designer)

SycheSep 16, 20143 votes

Why not? There's inherently more counterplay and more skill involved in champions that both cast skills and autoattack, and if they can manage to correctly build and play well then they should be more powerful then a basic autoattack ADC when their skills are off cooldown.

67chromeSep 17, 20141 votes

Why not? There's inherently more counterplay and more skill involved in champions that both cast skills and autoattack, and if they can manage to correctly build and play well then they should be more powerful then a basic autoattack ADC when their skills are off cooldown.

Skills themselves don't offer more counterplay by default. "Don't get hit" is a little different when you're facing a 1100 range skill like Mystic Shot compared to a 550 range auto-attack. Also, auto-attack steroids like Final Hour can easily be countered by not being next to a champion, which can be accomplished through mobility, positioning, and/or crowd-control.

Generally speaking - skills that front-load all the damage you could have done with auto-attacks in a single instance as well. Rather than needing to maintain solid positioning where you're close enough to deal constant damage but in a safe position for ~6 seconds, with burst you can just unload everything in an otherwise perilous location and then dodge out a second later. Even if you get wombo-comboed, unloading a bunch of front-loaded damage will often allow you to do your job in team-fights. With nothing but auto-attacks alone, you get bursted immediately and your team's at a big dissadvantage. That's mostly the TLDR on why marksman are often focused before mages - mages AoE actually makes them stronger in team-fights, but they only need 1 second to pull their weight.

Doing nothing but auto-attacking is actually pretty easy to play around. Focus fire, burst, CC - pretty much any aggressive action taken against an auto-attacker is the right decision. It's one of the reasons you basically never see AD Sion.

Also - concerning seeing champions, caster marksman have been a dominant force for every season but the current one. In season 1, Tri-Force Corki was considered the best marksman. In season 2 it was Tri-Force Ezreal, fallowed shortly by Corki and Graves. In season 3 there were a lot of changes, but with a re-vamped Tri-Force right before worlds - Ezreal and Corki were the top picks again. For this season, Lucian, another caster-ADC, was shaping up to be the dominant pick.

Which is fairly awkward concerning "marksman", the most committed auto-attacking roll has been dominated by very caster-heavy champions.

And it makes a certain degree of sense - if you can burst hard enough it's worth using over auto-attacks and then fallow that burst with some solid auto-attacks, champions like Vayne and Kog'Maw that are pretty much limited to auto-attacking alone are already chunked to 50% health before they can respond.

Mid Tier Item: Scythe of Mind Stealing

My main problem with Reaver having a mid tier item is this:

Jayce was the most broken champion in the game when he could stack a tear by stance-dancing. Making mana-dependant champions manaless with a minimal gold investment really throws balance off.

Most of the mana-dependent champions are balanced around a limited ammo count early-on. And generally speaking - mana costs tend to correlate very strongly with how front-loaded skills are. The more mana, the more they tend to be akin to blasting a foe with a rocket launcher over machine-gunning them to death.

Anyways - both Muramana and Reaver require mana costs are a real gate to a champion's power early-on, where they transition into an item that offsets mana sustains rapid diminishment in importance once the lanning phase ends by essentially offering all the mana-sustain for free upon the completed item.

Nobody wanted manamune when it had no upgrade as the mana costing gold set back the damage potential of auto-attackers, which can really feel that hit with their exponential scaling. You kind of need to offer the mana sustain for free at some point for the item to be worthwhile - but offer it to early and big mana costs don't serve as an ammo system at all.

Dokueki KenshinSep 16, 20141 votes

I definitely think that would be a good idea, but it would probably require the addition of a new item to the game that might only find its niche with this one item, which I'm fairly sure developers aren't very favorable to. The reason why I can't back any of the suggestions where certain features of an item are "traded in" is because it's pretty much not done. In some form or another, abilities from the base items are part of the final item's ability suite.

To the best of my research (which was admittedly pretty light), there are no other items which restore mana on hit from basic auto-attacks, and if mana regen is added to this item, it would need to carry over to the final build along with the mana restore. This would likely result in an increase in cost for the item, which would damage its efficiency. So the challenge we face is not only what item should we make for this (because I really can't see any existing item being added in here without upping the total cost of the item), but after making that item, how it should be applied to other times in League.

Also, please check out my Energy-based ADC with Shadow Possession ability: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/BxIn84WU-champion-concept-valruk-the-jungles-revenge

TiropatSep 16, 20141 votes

Aren't aa based champs excessively stronger late game? Why not let caster adc's have an interesting mid game.

Kid FreljordSep 16, 20141 votes

Well then how about a trade-off of Attack Damage for physical spell damage. As I see it, Essense Reaver allows AD Casters to fulfill their fantasy as well as keep their auto attacks strong. There's no real trade off as you still get the homogenized 80 Attack Damage while being able to spam your spells more often. What if we toned down the Attack Damage and focused the item more on ad casting?

Please note all numbers are pure conjecture and quite possibly absurd.

Theoretically! let's take item 3508 as it is, and strip out some Attack Damage

~~+80~~ +50 Attack Damage

Effect: Auto attacks and AD spells are less effective

Now let's add in a passive to make up for the lost damage on the spells

UNIQUE Passive Efficiency: Attack Damage ratios increased by 35% Ability Power ratios increased by 20%

Effect: Improved ratios increase the power of abilities while leaving auto attacks unaffected

In a vacuum this item gives less damage, but the improved ratios also means items like item 3078 and item 3072 are more cost efficient and more than make up for the damage lost.

With the loss of raw Attack Damage, the life steal component would be less effective, so it might have to be buffed accordingly

~~+10%~~ +12% Life Steal

Effect: Life steal more or less unaffected, may need tweaking

Now yes your autos will be less effective, but your abilities will end up being stronger, solidifying the AD Caster fantasy. You will still rely on auto attacks for the mana and decent damage, but your auto harass will be less suffocating with this build, allowing for a cheaper item component that will alleviate laning mana issues!

This cheaper component could include some Attack Damage and the mana Passive, maybe some CDR. Make it about equivilent to item 3144 in power and cost. Something like;

Acolyte's Spellsword

+15 Attack Damage +5% Cooldown Reduction

UNIQUE Passive: Your basic attacks restore mana equal to between 2% and 8% of the physical damage dealt, based on your missing mana.

Which would eventually, with the addition of the item 1053 and possibly a item 1036 , turn into something like

Essence Reaver +50 Attack Damage +12% Life Steal +10% Cooldown Reduction

UNIQUE Passive Efficiency: Attack Damage ratios increased by 35% Ability Power ratios increased by 20%

UNIQUE Passive: Your basic attacks restore mana equal to between 2% and 8% of the physical damage dealt, based on your missing mana.

Now this is all theory-crafting and possibly a downright stupid idea, but I'm open to thoughts on this.

Jace77Sep 17, 20142 votes

needs a weaker version (without lifesteal?) in place of the bf sword. cause right now its just another solid lifesteal item.

Sire HippingtonSep 19, 20142 votes

I digged up some PBE posts about Essencereaver, the first two beeing from befor Essence Reaver went to live, the last was befor the builtpath changed to vampirc+B.F. The Idea of a low-tier item for manasustain+ad that builts into essencereaver(or even more mana-sustain items) was there even befor Essencereaver went live, but unfortunatly no one listened to the PBE( nearly all posts on PBE about Essencereaver called for an earlygame mana-sustain component)

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/mxEohBFF-essence-reaver-problem

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/d5nnruxB-essence-reaver-feedback

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/aEheicAA-essence-reaver

I personally like the idea off an item(Spirite Reaver) building out of item 1036 and item 1004 , beeing the mana-version of vampiric(which imo could get built from and item 1006 ). I think it would offer a nice early mana-sustain option that could work in multiple builtpath. Especialy a item building out of 'Spirite Reaver' and item 3134 would be great(I think the current Essence reaver is a bit close to Bloodthirster, not only in terms of built-path)

RockyXYSep 15, 20141 votes

Whoa, creepy, I posted almost this same exact thing just a few hours apart from you.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/gPgvqtkv-essence-reaver-change

With two threads about this same topic in one day, I think that its pretty clear that the fans are starving for this. I hope that a rioter sees this and replies to our ideas.

Willahelm FulberSep 15, 20141 votes

an item that gives back mana for hitting people with spells.

This idea for an item is a good idea, however the recommended build path,

mana viper + brutalizer

is not a good path, considering it would be a better pick-up for mages who for the most part rely on magic damage for their spells.

Vellich0rSep 16, 20141 votes

Do this, add mana regen to the mana viper and the essence reaver, this way you have the mana on hit effect AND more passive mana regen. this allows even an ADC who is last hitting regain mana still.

cshakesSep 16, 20141 votes

How about something like this: Spirit Scythe item 1036 + item 1004 + 360g (total 880g) 10 AD 3 MP5 Unique Passive: Reave - Restore 5% of your damage dealt on every auto-attack.

Essence Reaver v1 Spirit Scythe + item 1038 + 850g (3200g) 80 AD 3 MP5 (maybe more?) Unique: 10% CDR (I feel that this is now part of its identity as one of the necessary AD+CDR items) Unique Passive: Reave - Restore 10% of your damage dealt on every auto-attack.

Essence Reaver v2 (this is probably undertuned) Spirit Scythe + item 3134 + 783g (3000g) 50 AD 3 MP5 (maybe more?) 10% CDR Unique: 10 Armor Penetration Unique Passive: Reave - Restore 10% of your damage dealt on every auto-attack.

I feel that Spirit Scythe should be a valid alternative to a Vamp Scepter, so the price should be about the same. If we're keeping Essence Reaver as the ADC item that it's supposed to be, I think it almost has to be 80 AD, since otherwise it's a waste of a slot lategame. Currently, it caters to the likes of Varus and Lucian who both auto-attack and like casting spells, benefiting from the CDR and AD.

BatDendeSep 16, 20141 votes

I think instead of introducing changes to the item's stats or making new items to become the midgame rush, they should change the build to item 1053 + item 1037 + because + item 1038 is already taken by item 3072 which in all fairness was here first and is better in most scenarios. While this option doesn't create a mana-generating midway item to rush, it gives item 3508 its own build identity without changing its stats or build cost.

TiropatSep 16, 20141 votes

item 3508 is not a bad item. It is the cheapest 80AD item by 300 gold and compaired to item 3072 it has 10% less lifesteal (worth 440g) and has 10% cdr (worth 317)

i.e. its worth 123 less gold and costs 300 less

imo the problem isn't item 3508 its that the meta currently favors auto champs excluding Lucian but he dosn't want essence reaver he wants item 3142

BatDendeSep 30, 20141 votes

I never said it was bad. I just said item 3072 is usually better.

BouncyhouseSep 16, 20141 votes

I main Graves when I ADC, and I rush item 3508 every time. The lifesteal sustain is less than item 3072 but the mana restore and CDR make it really good on him.

I feel like the item 1038 is a necessary part of the build path. My lane opponent will likely be rushing BF Sword as well, and will easily win trades if I get a lesser item.

I think Essence Reaver is in a good spot right now. It's not the best choice for every champion, but it doesn't need to be.

OrisiSep 16, 20141 votes

I've always argued that the item needed for an Essence Reaver is already here; decrease combine cost by 700 and add Forbidden Idol to the recipe. It already brings mana-related and CDR stats which otherwise just magically appear on the Reaver, and gives something to spec into that won't necessarily overbalance the early-game damage of champs building Reaver, but give them more to play with stat-wise while they save.

God Of Gold 5Sep 16, 20141 votes

I think in it's current iteration it's fine. It's not supposed to be so widely used that every champion can pick it up. I think it works well on champs like ashe/sivir to give them extended team fights with out running out of mana, as well as, people like thresh who have to get in the thick of battle, have a lot of armor, so that life steal is actually sustain.

MrBuffingtonSep 17, 20141 votes

I would love an item like this. I think though, the item would need to also take into account that ER gives CDR; there were a few items that had to incorporate other stats to make sense of why the upgraded version offers those stats (like item 3113 item 3114 ). It's weird how neither vamp scept nor BFS offer CDR or mana regen, yet the upgraded version does.

Fat of the LandSep 17, 20141 votes

The largest problem with Reaver is it's designed for mana intensive champions, yet it only provides the mana benefit once the item is completed. Since it's a fairly expensive item with a very expensive component, and the item isn't as cost effective for DPS as others, it tends to be purchased late game after core damage items. However mana intensive champions need the mana bonuses much earlier than that.

I agree there should be some mid game relief to bridge that gap, but it isn't necessary to make a new item. This only adds clutter to the store. There is an easier way... Include item 3114 in the recipe.

Now there's actually some early and mid game relief for mana intensive ADs, the cooldown reduction and mana return don't appear out of nowhere, there are cheaper components in the recipe making it easier to build into, and by including the 8-10 mana regeneration from Idol, Reaver gains some extra power without gaining much extra combat power. As well, the 700g price tag fits nicely into Reavers 850g upgrade cost.

Math TestSep 17, 20141 votes

It doesn't need an in between item to become viable, I don't know anyone who thinks this is a good pickup. Sure, it sounds good, mana back on hit, more spells, etc. but the mana you actually get is so minescule unless you are autoing creeps and playing farm simulator. In teamfights where you really need mana to keep your skills available you are likely to not auto-attack the enemies enough to make much of a difference on your mana before you either win the fight, disengage the fight, or die. I think item 3508 is a nice thought, but poor execution.

MAZZ1M0Sep 19, 20141 votes

I love this idea. +1

VenowolfSep 27, 20141 votes

The problem with this item are:

the mana-leech
his recipe
total cost

Because the mana-leech is very useful in laning phase but after that is not very efficient also the amount of mana in the late is very poorly. Now is an high-cost item so is very difficult build him to the laning phase in the early. Where the essence reaver really have utility.

His recipe any item give the mana that we want to the laning so his recipe is very weird.
The cost is very high and not totally efficient like IE or BT so why build this item if i can build an BT with only 100g more.

So possible solution to the items are.

Create a new item that give the mana-leech and replace the BFS in the recipe.
Increase the mana-leech of the Essence Reaver
Reduce the total cost

For Example:

New Item "Aeon Scythe"

Build path: item 3114 + item 1036 + 390g

Cost: 1450g

+35 attack damage +10% cooldown reduction

Passive UNIQUE PASSIVE: Your basic attacks restore mana equal to between 2% and 6% of the physical damage dealt, based on your missing mana.

Build into:

Essence Reaver:

Recipe : Vampiric Scepter + Aeon Scythe+ 1000 total cost: 3250g

Stats:

+80 attack damage +10% life steal +10% cooldown reduction

Passive UNIQUE PASSIVE: Your basic attacks restore mana equal to between 4% and 8% of the physical damage dealt, based on your missing mana.

So with these changes Essence Reaver can be more viable in all the "senses".

ItzonSep 30, 20141 votes

I dig the idea of the essence reaver coming off of a item 3057 and a item 1053 but that might be too op...

103percentOct 19, 20141 votes

Here's my thoughts:

Definitely needs a mid-tier item. Having to basically wait 3200 gold is too long to finally start getting mana returns. By then you are basically out of laning phase. Plenty of good suggestions already around; but it must give AD with the mana regen part if you want ADCs to pick it up. Any item that is straight mana/CDR/not dmg will never be picked up bot lane because you will then get run over in lane by champs that get AD.
On the topic of "If it's too good then xyz AD assassin will abuse it!". If that's the case, you can always put most of it's stats as unique (the CDR, mana, lifesteal, whatever) to prevent stacking. Furthermore, if you want this to be focused on ADC caster's and not on melee/mid/top AD assassins then simply add AS into the recipe. AS is something that no AD assassin ever wants, and is something that all ADC want and need. Give it enough AS that it's not stat efficient for non-ADCs and the problem solves itself.
The lifesteal of the item is so low; I'd honestly rather see the lifesteal go away and the stats go into AD. ADC caster's are normally more focused on building AD/ArPen instead of AS/crit like AA ADC are.