People think these "Make CT design PvE content" posts aren't insanely insulting somehow

chipndip1·Sep 15, 2018·23 votes·4,209 views

Like, if someone came to your place of work, or called in, or sent a letter, or whatever, and said:

"You know, I saw that guy/girl drawing designs/taking photos/designing websites/crunching numbers/whatever, and instead of doing what they went to school and honed their skills for in their career path, you wanna know what they SHOULD be doing at your company? Cleaning the restrooms. They'd be TOTALLY suited to doing something that isn't what they're doing right now. They're garbage at what they're doing right now. You should put them on janitorial duty.

Oh, you guys made a massive profit off their designs? You guys have more online traffic with their websites? You guys have more accurate analytics with their work here? Well, I personally don't like what they've done at your company so you should move them to cleaning the floors. It'll be better for everyone, trust me."

It's basically just a different flavor of "Fire CT" that doesn't sound as toxic on paper, but basically means the same thing of "He sucks and I don't want him influencing any champions that exist in this game, regardless of the huge following his champions garner."

101 Comments

Beatrice fallsSep 15, 201815 votes

People can share their opinions, it might sound insulting to you, but if they think this way, why would they restrict themselves ? I actually agree with them, I never thought I'd say this but I got the hang of Yasuo during this mode, and I never ever thought I'd play this champion

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

You don't really get the point, do you?

Imagine you being a chef and someone brazenly states that you should be completely removed from the kitchen, regardless of how much people like your food? It's literally a back-handed insult.

Beatrice fallsSep 15, 20185 votes

{quoted}

You don't really get the point, do you?

Imagine you being a chef and someone brazenly states that you should be completely removed from the kitchen, regardless of how much people like your food? It's literally a back-handed insult.

I do get your point. You can get talented for one thing, and not for another. Like I can't draw at all but I'm a good writer. I tried following drawing studies but I wasn't going anywhere simply because I wasn't progressing at all, while on the other hand, my writing skills have always been super good. Did I get offended when I got told to change my "path" ? No, now I enjoy what I'm doing because I'm good at it.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q5MtWomu,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-09-15T19:00:10.876+0000)

I do get your point. You can get talented for one thing, and not for another. Like I can't draw at all but I'm a good writer. I tried following drawing studies but I wasn't going anywhere simply because I wasn't progressing at all, while on the other hand, my writing skills have always been super good. Did I get offended when I got told to change my "path" ? No, now I enjoy what I'm doing because I'm good at it.

Difference: There's CLEAR evidence that his designs are good. People didn't clamor for your drawings. People DO clamor for CT's champs. If I came and shat all over your writing, that's different from doing it over your drawings, especially if you're a professional writer with a resume behind you.

ONLY PLAY TO WINSep 15, 20184 votes

They are only good for the people playing them, not for the game overall.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20183 votes

You say this but we can say this for anyone on this roster of 141 champs.

By this logic, Teemo should be deleted and whoever made him should have been LONG GONE. He's literally only known for being a fucking nuisance.

ONLY PLAY TO WINSep 15, 20182 votes

I don't know where you pulled the first sentence from. There are champs in this game that aren't overloaded pieces of garbage and that aren't extremely frustrating to play against. And yes, Teemo is a garbage design.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20183 votes

You say this and yet anyone can have an issue with any character.

You wanna know who everyone hated before Zoe in mid lane? Syndra, for being a "brain dead, no counter-play champ that just kills you by pressing R." I defended Syndra back then like how I defend Zoe now. People gear their hate towards whatever FEELS like it's the strongest, regardless of if it's even warranted or not.

And don't use stupid buzzwords like "overloaded". In most cases people on Gameplay use that word wrong, anyway.

SaezioSep 15, 201811 votes

{quoted}

You don't really get the point, do you?

Imagine you being a chef and someone brazenly states that you should be completely removed from the kitchen, regardless of how much people like your food? It's literally a back-handed insult.

NO its like saying this chef would fit better in a thai restaurant instead of a vietnamese if I judge by the way he handles his spices.

AnidanSep 15, 20185 votes

This is how I interpret the comments. It's slightly insulting maybe, but on the other hand, his designs are actually really fun in PVE. Imagine a Darius vs. the World PVE kinda deal, where his Q heal is his literal lifeline and good usage of it gets you further, and stacking your passive lets you into your zone to wreck some peons. Imagine a mob that screws over melee and Kalista is your best hope to deal with it, and other melee enemies safely, or Yasuo could permanently CC it, or both at different areas on the map.

His designs are pretty cool for PVE, but they are kind of miserable to play against in PVP.

There's nothing insulting, to me, about being better at making PVE content than PVP. As far as I'm aware, he probably went to school for game design in general, he didn't get a literal doctoral in PVP game-design specifically.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

This is how I interpret the comments. It's slightly insulting maybe, but on the other hand, his designs are actually really fun in PVE. Imagine a Darius vs. the World PVE kinda deal, where his Q heal is his literal lifeline and good usage of it gets you further, and stacking your passive lets you into your zone to wreck some peons. Imagine a mob that screws over melee and Kalista is your best hope to deal with it, and other melee enemies safely, or Yasuo could permanently CC it, or both at different areas on the map.

His designs are pretty cool for PVE, but they are kind of miserable to play against in PVP.

There's nothing insulting, to me, about being better at making PVE content than PVP. As far as I'm aware, he probably went to school for game design in general, he didn't get a literal doctoral in PVP game-design specifically.

Here's the thing: Riot doesn't even do PvE. The main attraction of the company's singular game is almost 100% PvP. It's literally another flavor of "Leave Riot pls".

PhDs NutsSep 15, 20189 votes

Imagine if Diablo 3 was a PvP MMO where the players picked from the types of monsters in the game. Then they add the Barbarian. Wow, the Barbarian is super fun to play! And a complete nightmare to play against.

And there's a big difference between "We think this application of game design is more up your alley" and "YOU PHD?! NO YOU MOP BATHROOM NOW". His champion designs fit better in a hack 'n' slash.

D357R0Y3RSep 15, 20183 votes

except that ct champions are designed for pvp no matter what people want them to be

AlzonSep 15, 20188 votes

It’s because they’re meant to be insulting while making the writer feel less scummy.

Z3SleeperSep 15, 20185 votes

Some may be, but we could always look on the positive side and think "Hey! This guy is really good at this! We'd love for him to make more!"

chipndip1Sep 15, 20181 votes

This game doesn't even do PvE content. It's pretty much 100% PvP, and no champ is going to be designed SOLELY for PvE. How are you guys not getting this?

Z3SleeperSep 15, 20182 votes

Not everyone is saying to take him off PvP. We're just saying we love the PvE work and would really enjoy if he was to make more.

And the ones saying to take him off could just be saying they really want more.

I don't think that's rude at all, it's a complement :)

Everything is up to individual interpretation, but that doesn't mean you can decide that your interpretation is their interpretation of their statement :)

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Not everyone is saying to take him off PvP. We're just saying we love the PvE work and would really enjoy if he was to make more.

And the ones saying to take him off could just be saying they really want more.

I don't think that's rude at all, it's a complement :)

Yasuo wouldn't exist in this game mode if he wasn't a character on fucking Summoner's Rift.

Stop twisting it. Jeeze, this must be what my friends think I'm doing when I do this to them...

Z3SleeperSep 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Stop twisting it.

Same?

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

Read the line before that one. Stop being simple-minded and avoiding the point of what's being said.

Nothing about anything you've said holds up for jack because you can't design a character for PvE content in this game without it being made for the fucking Rift. Saying he can't design for PvP is literally saying he can't design champions at Riot games.

SangreDeNocheSep 15, 20184 votes

Your examples are reaching HARD. It's moving from pvp to pve in game design. That's not saying "you're a shit chef, you should be a janitor" at all.

NepgearDesuSep 15, 20183 votes

"This person does an awesome work in designing homes, and I would really like them to exert their mastery on public buildings for reasons such as: they'll have more possibilities because more money, more different types of buildings to work on (museum =/= library =/= town hall etc.), I wonder how they would tackle issues that single homes do not face, etc."

Does it still sound insulting to you? Because that's exactly the way I think about a few champions in the game: whatever teams made e.g. Zoe earn my praise every time I play her, because she looks and acts gleeful, causes mayhem, runs at mach 3 speed and flickers all around the battlefield, just because that's how she has fun. Her abilities are quirky, combos (such as Q backwards > R forward > flash > attack > Q) have absurd reach and damage and can feel pretty good to land. In short, I like playing her. Which makes me wonder what exactly a champion that "breaks rules" would do if it were designed purely for a PvE mode. In Odyssey, Ziggs with a Short Fuse build does absurd things, Yasuo with a few Last Breath / Tornado augments can wipe a whole level clean given some preparation, and these are tons of fun, because they don't hurt anyone other than computer-controlled monsters.

Granted, I am in no place to make any recommendation as to what this or that person should or should not do. I'm not half as knowledgeable as I should be to even begin conceptualising the hints of the shadow of a slight piece of miniscule advice concerning what CertainlyT and their co-workers work on. They're excellent at what they do as far as I can tell, and I still would like to see a permanent PvE mode such as Odyssey, with a sizeable champion roster and as many broken interactions and strategies as possible. If whoever is in charge thinks it might be a good idea, then I'll be most pleased. If not, then I'll live without it.

Long story short: a League of Legends MMORPG could be lots of fun.

EleshakaiSep 15, 20183 votes

No, it's not. At all.

What they're saying is simple: CertainlyT struggles to keep his designs in check, which is important for a PvP game. As a result, he would likely do extremely well if he were put in an environment where that was less important. Ultimately, it would make more sense for him to work on other content than to try to change who he is to make him better at PvP design.

I can get behind it in theory. It's only insulting if you have an enormous ego and are unwilling to take criticism... which is apparently a fault you have, but I hope it's not one CertainlyT shares with you, because I would actually love to see what he would make in a less restrictive environment than hyper-competitive pvp.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

No, it's not. At all.

What they're saying is simple: CertainlyT struggles to keep his designs in check, which is important for a PvP game. As a result, he would likely do extremely well if he were put in an environment where that was less important. Ultimately, it would make more sense for him to work on other content than to try to change who he is to make him better at PvP design.

Which is literally saying "Don't work at Riot". He can't design fucking League champions if he can't work on PvP content.

EleshakaiSep 15, 20182 votes

Or... be involved in the other projects they've openly stated they're working on. Whether it be alternative league content like Star Guardian/Odyssey or being a key member on a team for a game that has not yet been released... Riot has stated on numerous occasions over the past year that they are VERY INTERESTED in putting the 's' in Riot Games, as it were... so there is very much room for non-PvP designers in Riot Games. Just not necessarily in ways we can see yet.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

You have no idea what any future projects could be. They could ALSO be PvP games, in which case you wouldn't want him on those projects, either.
He's a champion designer. Why would he do those other things when his main job is designing video game characters?

EleshakaiSep 16, 20181 votes

I can't see them competing with themselves. Making something else expanding the LoL universe in a different genre makes the most sense. But, you're right, we don't know.
Do you think he went to school and took a course called 'champion design 101'? People change jobs all the time, when a better fit presents itself(or when they just want new challenges). Why should he explore something he would likely be significantly better at? Well, you know... because he'd be way better at it. He clearly chafes under the restrictions of the current environment and could really let his creativity loose in an environment not as heavily restricted by 'competitive balance'.

But you're just determined to take offense on behalf of someone else, so you're not really in the mood to listen to logic... so I'll bow out here.

chipndip1Sep 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I can't see them competing with themselves. Making something else expanding the LoL universe in a different genre makes the most sense. But, you're right, we don't know.

Do you think he went to school and took a course called 'champion design 101'? People change jobs all the time, when a better fit presents itself(or when they just want new challenges). Why should he explore something he would likely be significantly better at? Well, you know... because he'd be way better at it. He clearly chafes under the restrictions of the current environment and could really let his creativity loose in an environment not as heavily restricted by 'competitive balance'.

But you're just determined to take offense on behalf of someone else, so you're not really in the mood to listen to logic... so I'll bow out here.

I take offense at stupid, which this board is full of.
No matter what you said here, none of this relates to the notion that the boards have decided that the new way to say "Fire CT" is to say "Have CT work on something that we have no reason to believe even exists at Riot." You can spin it 50 ways to Monday, but it's still the same thing.

EleshakaiSep 16, 20181 votes

No wonder you're so miserable. You're taking offense at yourself perpetually, which leads you down into a spiral of misery... my condolences. I hope someday you can recover.

chipndip1Sep 16, 20181 votes

I need to start posting like everyone else on these boards. Clearly providing a clear argument for my stance on a subject is futile if I'm met with people that just deflect and bow out the minute they realize "Oh shit, I have nothing left to turn to".

EleshakaiSep 17, 20181 votes

Your problem is that you believe you had an actual leg to stand on in this argument. when the reality is that your argument was built entirely on meaningless outrage.

I bowed out when I realized you had no meat to your argument. Everything you're saying is just 'oh everyone who says this MUST hate certainlyt so I should be angry at them'.

chipndip1Sep 17, 20181 votes

You even acknowledge that you have 0 ideas what they could be working on outside of League. And as far as League itself goes, most of the relevant updates to the game are added through new champion designs, either through reworks or new creations. When you say "work on something besides PvP content" for someone that works at a company that's *only known for PvP content", solely because they've begun dabbling in the occasional PvE event (which they've done a whopping 3 or 4 of in this game's near-decade of life), you're essentially saying "You're nice, but get away from my game".

It's obvious sugar-coating. This isn't even about liking him or not. It's about people just "nicely skirting around" the rule to not call for people to be fired.

EleshakaiSep 18, 20181 votes

Or they could be encouraging Riot to develop something for PvE because they feel like it'd be really cool and CertainlyT is a logical fit for being a part of that project.

Your problem is that you're determined to see outrage, and thus you're choosing the negative spin. I choose the positive way to look at it.

I think Riot has the background lore and gameworld to easily do some really cool permanent PvE content, and I would love to see them work on that. As a result, I feel like they should move CertainlyT to working on THAT component, because I think the work he'd do on a project like that would be really good.

haaaaaaalpSep 15, 20181 votes

I don't think people care from either side. The boards don't care if they are being insulting and certainlyT doesn't really care what the boards think. Otherwise, the fire certainylT topics you alluded to would have been a far bigger problem.

Also, not really sure I agree with your analogy. I don't think certainlyT honed his skills specifically to design moba champions. That seems oddly specific and honestly, his champions don't really work well in a moba. He probably had a much broader career path and riot is trying to shoehorn his designs into a game they really don't belong in. The suggestion he move into design of something slightly different seems very reasonable and a far cry from the drawing designs/taking photos/designing websites/crunching numbers/whatever to janitor parallel that you are trying to draw.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I don't think people care from either side. The boards don't care if they are being insulting and certainlyT doesn't really care what the boards think. Otherwise, the fire certainylT topics you alluded to would have been a far bigger problem.

You don't know if a designer cares about what people think. Why do you think it's against the rules to create threads calling for people to be fired these days?

Also, not really sure I agree with your analogy. I don't think certainlyT honed his skills specifically to design moba champions. That seems oddly specific and honestly, his champions don't really work well in a moba. He probably had a much broader career path and riot is trying to shoehorn his designs into a game they really don't belong in. The suggestion he move into design of something slightly different seems very reasonable and a far cry from the drawing designs/taking photos/designing websites/crunching numbers/whatever to janitor parallel that you are trying to draw.

Because, at the place where he works, there's no use for what you're "suggesting" him to do, so you're BASICALLY telling him to leave Riot in a "not so mean" manner. It's back-handed, but it means the exact same thing. I do it all the time when I want to insult people, so I'd know.

haaaaaaalpSep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You don't know if a designer cares about what people think. Why do you think it's against the rules to create threads calling for people to be fired these days?

It is all speculation. You don't know for sure the devs care, I don't know for sure the devs don't care. We can either choose to hide behind nobody knows for sure like and get nowhere or use our brains and figure out what is most likely.

Because, at the place where he works, there's no use for what you're "suggesting" him to do, so you're BASICALLY telling him to leave Riot in a "not so mean" manner. It's back-handed, but it means the exact same thing. I do it all the time when I want to insult people, so I'd know.

Where do you get that idea? While some people don't really care about the pve aspects of the game, there are clearly enough others players that do care about the event that riot feels it was profitable to put out pve events. It isn't fair to say that riot has no use for pve development and doing so is just as insulting to the team that developed the odyssey event as you are accusing others of being towards CT.

There of probably some level of insult in saying Ct should do pve but nowhere to the level you are making it out to be.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It is all speculation. You don't know for sure the devs care, I don't know for sure the devs don't care.

If they didn't care they'd be on the boards more. They aren't and they've CLEARLY stated before that all the hate is grating, hence why they don't show up here as much. Don't be naive.

Where do you get that idea? While some people don't really care about the pve aspects of the game, there are clearly enough others players that do care about the event that riot feels it was profitable to put out pve events. It isn't fair to say that riot has no use for pve development and doing so is just as insulting to the team that developed the odyssey event as you are accusing others of being towards CT.

What PvE aspects of this game needs a character designer to make? This man designs the game's playable characters. You don't need an entire champion designer to make a dragon or a Baron or a Rift Herald. This is pathetic.

haaaaaaalpSep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If they didn't care they'd be on the boards more. They aren't and they've CLEARLY stated before that all the hate is grating, hence why they don't show up here as much. Don't be naive.

And yet Ct still makes the same mistakes so it clearly isn't effecting him that much. I don't really care whether or not they visit the boards, I am far more interested in whether or not it effects the way they work and there doesn't seem to be sufficient evidence that it is effecting how CT works (not that they would be a bad thing given his history).

What PvE aspects of this game needs a character designer to make? This man designs the game's playable characters. You don't need an entire champion designer to make a dragon or a Baron or a Rift Herald. This is pathetic.

The pve is more than just adding neutral objectives. Making augments for 5 different champions interesting and allowing them to fulfill roles they otherwise don't do in solo q justifies having someone like CT on board as much as reworking a single champion.

chipndip1Sep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

And yet Ct still makes the same mistakes so it clearly isn't effecting him that much. I don't really care whether or not they visit the boards, I am far more interested in whether or not it effects the way they work and there doesn't seem to be sufficient evidence that it is effecting how CT works (not that they would be a bad thing given his history).

He makes the most popular champions here. Would you rather new releases be a champion people actually like, or should they be fucking Ivern, who's disappeared the moment he wasn't op?

The pve is more than just adding neutral objectives. Making augments for 5 different champions interesting and allowing them to fulfill roles they otherwise don't do in solo q justifies having someone like CT on board as much as reworking a single champion.

None of that has ANYTHING to do with champion design in League of Legends, which is what CT does. CT makes champions. Stupid add-ons to a temporary game mode isn't what you'd relegate a freaking character designer to while he's unable to do the thing he's freaking hired for.

haaaaaaalpSep 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

He makes the most popular champions here. Would you rather new releases be a champion people actually like, or should they be fucking Ivern, who's disappeared the moment he wasn't op?

He makes the unhealthiest champions who are constantly the most banned champions. People are forced to pick or ban his champions because they do too much compared to other champions. Zoe has caused far more problems than ivern ever will.

None of that has ANYTHING to do with champion design in League of Legends, which is what CT does. CT makes champions. Stupid add-ons to a temporary game mode isn't what you'd relegate a freaking character designer to while he's unable to do the thing he's freaking hired for.

He does both new champions as well as reworks. Things like the augmentation system require just as much work to be fun as a champion rework. Also, addons to a temporary mode is a better place to relegate CT than champion design or rework on the main game mode.

Also, riot use to make a lot of new champions and no pve game mode. They have since switched into 5-6 champions a year and incorporated more rotating game modes. I doubt everyone at riot is still doing exactly the same thing now as they were hired originally for.

chipndip1Sep 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

He makes the unhealthiest champions who are constantly the most banned champions. People are forced to pick or ban his champions because they do too much compared to other champions. Zoe has caused far more problems than ivern ever will.

You keep making this claim about unhealthy champions and never say a damn lick to back it up.
Ivern's literally a waste of data. Anything's better. No one likes him.

haaaaaaalpSep 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You keep making this claim about unhealthy champions and never say a damn lick to back it up.

Ivern's literally a waste of data. Anything's better. No one likes him.

All of the points have already been rehashed 100 times on these boards. There is no need to copy and paste something another time. If you have been living under a rock, you can go through my post history (or honestly half of the board users) and find all the reason you need. Hell, many of the points have been brought up already in this exact topic, you are just too close minded and ignore them.

And say what you want about ivern, at least he isn't zoe. Ivern will see play once riot sorts out season 9 jungle and gives him the appropriate buffs because he can actually be a healthy champion. The balance team needs to keep zoe's numbers artificially low until she gets reworked just like kalista before her and akali after.

chipndip1Sep 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

All of the points have already been rehashed 100 times on these boards. There is no need to copy and paste something another time. If you have been living under a rock, you can go through my post history (or honestly half of the board users) and find all the reason you need. Hell, many of the points have been brought up already in this exact topic, you are just too close minded and ignore them.

Because you guys make absolutely asinine points.

"His champs break the rules of the game"

"His champs have 0 weaknesses"

"It'd be great if he designed PvE content for a company that has no apparent use for dedicating devs to PvE content"

Where the fuck do you even begin with bullshit like this? No analysis. No data besides ban rate spamming all over the joint. Just constant fuckery and it all gets upvoted while completely sound and reasonable posts get downvoted sometimes just for correcting stupid shit...or even just answering the thread's question (no, I'm not talking about my posts. I make these types of posts knowing full well they'll get downvoted). It's actually fucking sad that people can't go to the Gameplay boards to have an actual discussion about the game so mods had to make ANOTHER Gameplay board with stricter guidelines to do what these boards couldn't, and what's the first thing you see in THOSE threads? "Man, I can't downvote wtf?" Bravo.

If someone presents a case that shakes my faith, I change my mind. My problem with Gameplay is that it's 85% mouth dribble, and this interaction is one more example of that. "Alright, defend your position".

"Nah, it's apparent all over if you just lo-"

that's hogwash.

And say what you want about ivern, at least he isn't zoe. Ivern will see play once riot sorts out season 9 jungle and gives him the appropriate buffs because he can actually be a healthy champion. The balance team needs to keep zoe's numbers artificially low until she gets reworked just like kalista before her and akali after.

I guarantee you no one will play that shit champ unless he's busted. Count on it.

haaaaaaalpSep 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because you guys make absolutely asinine points.

"His champs break the rules of the game"

"His champs have 0 weaknesses"

"It'd be great if he designed PvE content for a company that has no apparent use for dedicating devs to PvE content"

You can cherry pick asinine points out of anything when enough people post about it. It doesn't make the overarching theme any less valid.

Where the fuck do you even begin with bullshit like this? No analysis. No data besides ban rate spamming all over the joint. Just constant fuckery and it all gets upvoted while completely sound and reasonable posts get downvoted sometimes just for correcting stupid shit...or even just answering the thread's question (no, I'm not talking about my posts. I make these types of posts knowing full well they'll get downvoted). It's actually fucking sad that people can't go to the Gameplay boards to have an actual discussion about the game so mods had to make ANOTHER Gameplay board with stricter guidelines to do what these boards couldn't, and what's the first thing you see in THOSE threads? "Man, I can't downvote wtf?" Bravo.

And what "data" do you present exactly? The banrates alone are enough to show how problematic his champions are.

As far as the no analysis part, that is completely bullshit. There has been plenty of analysis outlining exactly why CT's champions are so problematic. The fact that you still ignore it shows more about how closed minded you are than anything about the boards.

Finally, the only reason people made the downvote comments is because the gameplay+ mods occasionally mess up and promote topics which clearly didn't belong there. G+ is a decent theory but the mods put too much faith in themselves and really should have kept an upvote/downvote on top of the selection process. That being said, it is still early on in the G+ cycle so there is always time to improve it.

If someone presents a case that shakes my faith, I change my mind. My problem with Gameplay is that it's 85% mouth dribble, and this interaction is one more example of that. "Alright, defend your position".

"Nah, it's apparent all over if you just lo-"

that's hogwash.

The problem is your are too closes minded to consider anything besides your preconceived notions.

I guarantee you no one will play that shit champ unless he's busted. Count on it.

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. He has seen play in the past when he wasn't busted simply because there weren't other viable enchanters in the jungle. Reguardless of his pick rate, he is still far less problematic than zoe.

chipndip1Sep 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You can cherry pick asinine points out of anything when enough people post about it. It doesn't make the overarching theme any less valid.

I gave you the floor to make your point, and you said "nah". Providing an argument for your case isn't my responsibility.

And what "data" do you present exactly? The banrates alone are enough to show how problematic his champions are.

If you argue that his champs are disliked, no one would play them, but they do, even when they aren't that strong statistically. If you argue that his champs are insanely broken, they'd have massive win rates, which they tend not to (I don't think a single CT champ pulled a tank Ekko/season 7 Sona win rate in solo queue, which is a massive 60% general win rate).

Akali, for example, is a high skill cap assassin. She's fucking abysmal in low elos (like 45% win rate or less in Bronze/Silver), but her win rate jumps up to 50% in Diamond+ Lolalytics. This is a healthy curve. Now people will say "bu-bu-but she can press W", but if you look at the statistics, she doesn't have an 85% general win rate in all elos, so despite her W, there's reasons why she's not breaking the entire rift in half, which people forget often. People just want to fish for excuses to whine and complain when they lose to the cooler character, hence why I made the thread calling for more champions to be designed in ways that feel satisfying and cool to play, rather than tearing down other people's fun.

This isn't even JUST a CT problem. Zed gets CONSTANT shit for his design even though he's the bar for healthy assassin design in this game. People bitch about him constantly, but who's popping me in .3 seconds out of stealth, again? Oh yeah, not Zed...it's Rengar and Shaco, and LB does it from over a wall. People just complain about Zed because he's got a flashy game play pattern and a lot of people like him. He's not ACTUALLY amazing most of the time, but he looks like it and that's what irks people.

Hell, I remember last year when people were saying Orianna had no counters because Dopa over-exaggerated once on stream...when she had a 50% win rate. People were blatantly saying Orianna had no counters when she had a freaking 50% win rate and roughly 10% play rate or so, probably even less. Syndra got the same bullshit back then, too, with people saying she's a "no brain champion that just presses R on you and you die". Once again, I defended those champs in those cases because, honestly, that was bullshit.

As far as the no analysis part, that is completely bullshit. There has been plenty of analysis outlining exactly why CT's champions are so problematic. The fact that you still ignore it shows more about how closed minded you are than anything about the boards.

You say this.

You present none.

You've wasted your time.

This isn't the first post of mine you've shown up in doing exactly this, which is why I'm being short with you now.

Finally, the only reason people made the downvote comments is because the gameplay+ mods occasionally mess up and promote topics which clearly didn't belong there.

They don't promote shit. That thread of mine that you were in last time was even turned down the first time, and the one you posted in was my second attempt at posting it. All they do is make the initial clearance for a post to be there. After that, it's like any other post, but people can't downvote spam it and crap-tier posts get removed.

The problem is your are too closes minded to consider anything besides your preconceived notions.

Ask Rubick if you see him around. We argue on things, and some things I don't change my mind. But are times where he's convinced me to his way of thinking, and there's times where I (at least I think) did the same for him. The point is that I come to a place like Gameplay to discuss the game. When it's filled with asinine bs that's basically just scrub chatter, I'm not gonna sit here and respect posts like those as if they're quality posts, cause they aren't. Make your point. Defend your point well. If you can do that, I have a significantly different tone. When it's just empty handed nonsense, this is what we're left with.

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one. He has seen play in the past when he wasn't busted simply because there weren't other viable enchanters in the jungle. Reguardless of his pick rate, he is still far less problematic than zoe.

He's viable enough now. His design's just boring and no one wants to play it.

haaaaaaalpSep 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I gave you the floor to make your point, and you said "nah". Providing an argument for your case isn't my responsibility.

If you argue that his champs are disliked, no one would play them, but they do, even when they aren't that strong statistically. If you argue that his champs are insanely broken, they'd have massive win rates, which they tend not to (I don't think a single CT champ pulled a tank Ekko/season 7 Sona win rate in solo queue, which is a massive 60% general win rate).

Akali, for example, is a high skill cap assassin. She's fucking abysmal in low elos (like 45% win rate or less in Bronze/Silver), but her win rate jumps up to 50% in Diamond+ Lolalytics. This is a healthy curve. Now people will say "bu-bu-but she can press W", but if you look at the statistics, she doesn't have an 85% general win rate in all elos, so despite her W, there's reasons why she's not breaking the entire rift in half, which people forget often. People just want to fish for excuses to whine and complain when they lose to the cooler character, hence why I made the thread calling for more champions to be designed in ways that feel satisfying and cool to play, rather than tearing down other people's fun.

This isn't even JUST a CT problem. Zed gets CONSTANT shit for his design even though he's the bar for healthy assassin design in this game. People bitch about him constantly, but who's popping me in .3 seconds out of stealth, again? Oh yeah, not Zed...it's Rengar and Shaco, and LB does it from over a wall. People just complain about Zed because he's got a flashy game play pattern and a lot of people like him. He's not ACTUALLY amazing most of the time, but he looks like it and that's what irks people.

Hell, I remember last year when people were saying Orianna had no counters because Dopa over-exaggerated once on stream...when she had a 50% win rate. People were blatantly saying Orianna had no counters when she had a freaking 50% win rate and roughly 10% play rate or so, probably even less. Syndra got the same bullshit back then, too, with people saying she's a "no brain champion that just presses R on you and you die". Once again, I defended those champs in those cases because, honestly, that was bullshit.

You say this.

You present none.

You've wasted your time.

This isn't the first post of mine you've shown up in doing exactly this, which is why I'm being short with you now.

They don't promote shit. That thread of mine that you were in last time was even turned down the first time, and the one you posted in was my second attempt at posting it. All they do is make the initial clearance for a post to be there. After that, it's like any other post, but people can't downvote spam it and crap-tier posts get removed.

Ask Rubick if you see him around. We argue on things, and some things I don't change my mind. But are times where he's convinced me to his way of thinking, and there's times where I (at least I think) did the same for him. The point is that I come to a place like Gameplay to discuss the game. When it's filled with asinine bs that's basically just scrub chatter, I'm not gonna sit here and respect posts like those as if they're quality posts, cause they aren't. Make your point. Defend your point well. If you can do that, I have a significantly different tone. When it's just empty handed nonsense, this is what we're left with.

He's viable enough now. His design's just boring and no one wants to play it.

Wow you are seriously going to pretend no one has explained the problems with CT's champions to you already? Okay i guess I will take the bait. I as well as many other people have already explained this to you in your g+ thread but you still pretend to not know. Also, the reason why people complained about the no downvote policy there was because that wasn't the first time the issues were explained to you, all of the points there were already made countless times on other CT threads which you just decided to ignore. It doesn't matter if it was your second or tenth attempt at making a thread there, the mods should have known the topic was done to death but they got complacent and approved the topic showing the need for another form of curation such as the upvote/downvote. You can complain about gameplay being 85% bullshit but when the same topic gets discussed again and again, you don't need more than a handful of posts to explain the problems.

Akali is an unbalancable champion in her current state and will only get worse as players get better with her. She is banned more in high elo simply because those players are picking her up faster, she will be a perma pick/ban everywhere eventually unless riot guts her numbers. Her primary damage ability locks her into a burst pattern because of it has low cooldown but is energy based. Her w makes it impossible to focus fire her in team fights. Those two elements cannot be balanced in the same assassin kit.

The strength of a burst assassin is that they can deal more damage to their selected target than that target can deal back meaning that this needs to be counterbalanced by the rest of the enemy team hitting the assassin with a hard cc and then focus firing them to make up the difference. However, since akali's smoke bomb gives her so much defenses against focus fire, she has to have her burst damage gutted and shifted more towards sustain damage. This then runs into the problem that her q costs makes her unable to build sustain damage properly and has to go burst and we are back to square one. In order to balance her smoke bomb, her burst has to be gutted to the point where she is unusable. We already learned about this problem with the old poppy.

Zed gets constant complaints but for a much different reason. On release, his numbers were too high and he was destroying pro play but no one cared about him in low elo. Then, as his kit got changed and ad assassin items got reworked, it became too easy for him to burst down targets in low elo with duskblade/electrocute/ignite while he but was fixed for pro play and high elo. Once riot sorts out the excess burst damage in season 9, there is a theoretical middle ground between where zed is now and where he was in the past where he isn't as big of a problem in either low or high elo. Orianna was balanced with number changes. Ivern likewise needs number changes although his should wait for the jungle next season since it is almost the end of the season.

chipndip1Sep 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Wow you are seriously going to pretend no one has explained the problems with CT's champions to you already?

1 full paragraph of "Well you should just know what I would say to you". Oh boy.

Akali is an unbalancable champion in her current state and will only get worse as players get better with her. She is banned more in high elo simply because those players are picking her up faster

And this is where we find out WHY you don't want to defend your point: You can't.

I just pointed out that her win rate dips as low as 43% in low elo, then climbs as you reach higher ones. High elo people ban Akali for the same reason high elo people fear Ryze, which is because she's a high skill cap champion being played by good players. However, we got people in Gold and below whining harder about Akali than Diamond players on these boards. It doesn't add up at all, and all you've done is say "It's unbalance-able. Impossible." with no data or information to back that up. You could have even said "She's never going to be balanced between all elos", but you didn't, because you haven't even thought that far.

Is she overtuned for high elo? Yes, I've talked to Rubick, who can actually make a case unlike what's being showcased here, and I agree she has room to be nerfed a bit. Is she "unbalance-able" because of her Q? Are you trying to make a joke? Next thing up is Zed's Q being "unbalance-able" right?

The strength of a burst assassin...

And it gets worse.

The strength of ANY assassin is burst and mobility. Chasing people down and dealing your damage quickly so you can either remove threats or finish off stragglers. Idk where "burst assassin" comes from.
Riot has been shifting from front loaded damage on assassins for years. Why? Because people hate getting wiped out in .4 seconds by random shit, which is a totally reasonable complaint. This is why Akali's design took this route. Her burst was ironed out, and to compensate, she has tools that keep her in the fight longer to dish it out. This is actually sound design. It gives people a chance to react to her, but gives her an environment to play her tools right and get the job done if she doesn't suck. Do you want to reward someone mashing shit out in .4 seconds, or someone that actually knows how to play and counter-play on their champ? If it's the latter, which I hope it is, Akali, Evelynn, and Zed are assassins that lean closer to that philosophy (unless they're horrendously fed).

Now you bring up Akali's shroud, saying it makes it so you can't focus her down.

You're "kinda" wrong.

If you're what Akali preys on, which is a carry, odds are your damage comes from targeted attacks. Melee, ap, and ranged carries have this in common. To them, their options are very limited. A Casseopia, Azir, Yi, Yasuo, Vayne...these champs don't like Akali, obviously.

If you're anything else, NOW you're dead wrong.

There's plenty of attacks in this game that are skill shots in this game. Hitting her reveals where you hit her. If you cc her, it shows where she was struck and you know she can't move. You can literally focus fire that spot with aoes and skill shots and she'll still die, which many mages, tanks, supports, and so on have. Sure, it feels bad if Akali's playing into her strengths, but to say that that's a problem is to say that no champ should have strengths outright, which is stupid.

And if you're THIS pressed about the shroud, literally walk backwards. It's Illaoi all over again. Just freaking move. If she has to E out of the shroud to chase a target, she's now entirely vulnerable to attacks while being insanely squishy.

Now, if you wanted, we could be having a conversation about what could be done to trim down Akali's skill cap, but when you walk into the conversation with "This champ's just ridiculous. Can't be balanced ever.", you dismantle the potential conversation that could be had that could actually create ideas to bring Akali in line at higher tiers of play (which I emphasize because she's not a problem in any elo below Diamond).

Zed gets constant complaints but for a much different reason. On release, his numbers were too high and he was destroying pro play but no one cared about him in low elo. Then, as his kit got changed and ad assassin items got reworked, it became too easy for him to burst down targets in low elo with duskblade/electrocute/ignite while he but was fixed for pro play and high elo.

Entirely wrong. People bitch about Zed to this day. Also, he isn't fixed in pro play. He doesn't exist in pro play, and hasn't for years. Nothing about this season's changes matter for Zed's situation. People have been complaining about him for years, and he's been relatively irrelevant in the pro scene for just as long. People will continue to complain in season 9. Just is what it is.

So, with this said, if you want, you could potentially ask me about what I think Riot should/could do with Akali's kit to make her more manageable when mastered, cause I assume that's a better avenue of conversation than you saying "She's shit design super broken" and me hammering the point of "You're wrong" into every response to you.

Daedric EtwahlSep 16, 20181 votes

You keep making this claim about unhealthy champions and never say a damn lick to back it up.

Idk but the fact that she's been out not even a year and has been through the wringer forward and back says something. They removed several things from her W drops and didnt they even recently remove the E trap? Or did that not make it past PBE? Regardless, the fact that she's basically a patch notes staple despite being out for only 10 months says something.

Sure, Ivern might not be popular, but he hasn't been a source of constant contention and balance issues

chipndip1Sep 16, 20181 votes

The E trap didn't get removed. Zoe keeps getting worked on mainly due to pro play dominance. She's finally in line in that space, so they're probably going to keep her around this power level and shift her around from here so people complain about her less. However, her constant rearranging is due to the same reason we did this to Syndra last year, which is pro play (and she was overtuned on release but aye, some champs are).
Ivern's not a source of anything because no one gives a shit about him, period. Do YOU give a shit about Ivern? I'm not gonna be worried about a 120 pound, 5'2 bouncer at a club when I'm 6'5. No one that small is gonna be a "cause of contention" because, for the situation at hand, they don't matter to me. Ivern is a "too small to play" bouncer in League of Legends. He's not exciting to play. He's super dependent on his team to work (because he's a jungling support). He needs to snowball hard to stay afloat in the match because he can't fend for himself. He just blows chunks.