Stats: Almost 51% winrate according to U.gg, and 51-52ish% on lolalytics. Right, and people were screaming the nerfs were massive? I knew very well these wouldn't do much because they haven't bothered touching the massive amount of damage she deals with just cdr components. Would just love one patch that would be solely dedicated to fixing toplane right about now.
Saianna12 votesShe wasn't nerfed to begin with. Just some number shuffles. Lots of work to make it look like she's nerfed, but that's about it all.
This comment lured in all Riven mains in the vicinity.
ModWulf Helhammer11 voteshttps://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/287799626168401921/583086050168143878/Capture.PNG
That's from 52.24% to 51.02% win rate, and 10.06% to 6.23% pick rate.
Complain about Riven all you want, but those were nerfs, and they did have significant impacts on her performance and popularity. Those are simply the facts, and you cannot deny that.
Ragnaveil3 votes[deleted]
ChaosReyn3 votesLet me ask a different question then: how do you fix top lane?
Cause tbh, if you can give me a decent answer for how to fix the most diverse, most flexible, most obtuse lane in the game (literally, I've seen no less than 60% of the entire champion roster top at some point over the last 3 seasons, let alone six) without making one part of it or another completely fucking unplayable, you deserve a Nobel Peace Prize.
Ragnaveil3 votesThats the issue. Its way too diverse that its impossible to fix. Mages have their own lane, so they can yeet off. Tanks like Maokai and Ornn need better waveclear, Tanks need better stats. Fighters should be balanced on either having mobility+ or damage+, not both (RIVEN). Turrets should do a bit more damage, and we need tp to lose its nerf (the cd canceling nerf/removal). Im merely tossing ideas, which ones get used is up to the team who hasn't bothered telling us they'll do something about the issue with Toplane, and has instead elected to ignore us for a 7th straight season.
ChaosReyn8 votesSo your answer instead of finding balance is telling a part of that roster to "yeet off"
Would that not be a case of you electing to ignore an entire section of players who main mage champs who've been top for all these multiple seasons?
Or the newest addition, 
?
By that logic, Maokai is a tree, why's he not in the jungle? You didn't cover ADC top lanes at all, repeat that for 
and
. How about hybrid champs like Gnar or Kayle or Jayce? They're not meta enough either, right? Jayce is basically an adc top by all rights until he goes hammer mode to yeet you with 7 abilities in his combo. Gnar's basically a Jayce who can't control his yeet mode. Kayle, though melee at the start, may as well be a hybrid scaling mage/adc/god right?
See my point? You don't have a clue, you're just talking out your ass.
U R Good At Game4 votesSo your answer instead of finding balance
You don't find a balance of every single class in the game. Did we not see ADC players cry and cry for months when riot said they wanted mages and fighters to go bot too? but when it comes to top it's "fuck top" you get to deal with the most infuriating match-up combinations in the game because fuck all reason. Not to mention a majority of actual top laners can ONLY viably go top so it's not even like the player can so fuck it I'll go another lane.
ChaosReyn1 votesDespite your obvious bias/hatred of bot, this is sadly the most accurate comment in response to all this. >.>
When Riot was trying to push fighters and mages to the bot lane, let's be honest, they got half of what they wanted. And in getting that much, as you said, everyone now bitches and moans about mage "supports" who "have no business in bot lane" dealing more damage than the adc.
But as I said at a different point in this - the meta sorts itself. If fighters were going to be a meta bot lane option, then they'd be a meta bot lane option. They're not because they don't fit, plain and simple. Neither the constant crying of adc mains nor the pressure from Riot's designers were the deciding factor on whether they could become meta or not. They simply underperform when placed there.
It's the same reason why a lot of tank junglers are only rarely used anymore, when they used to be on par or better than the aggressive/assassin supports - tank junglers are too slow for current jungle metas, and therefore are generally less viable thantheir damage-happy counterparts. It's the same reason AD mids and hyper-mobile mages are the norm in mid as opposed to the s5 meta of Xerath and Syndra being pick/ban - those are what's in power now.
It was mostly a trick question when I asked to find that perfect balance. You're not going to make everything viable all the time. But it was also a bit underhanded honestly - people who sit and say "nobody ever fixes [blank]" don't seem to understand that if they fix it the way they want it, they're bringing a whole separate round of people to the boards to complain about how "now [different blank] is completely fucked, you just ruined my entire game Riot, PepeRee!!!" and it shows.
Z3Sleeper4 votesThey didn’t underperform they were pushed out by the ADC item revert.
You can’t hate on top laners not wanting mages and ADCs in their lane when mid says fuck ADCs, tanks and immobile bruisers and bot says fuck tanks and immobile bruisers.
Fact is, those lanes are designed around certain types of champions.
The reason top lane sucks? Because it’s not balanced around certain types of champs. It’s just a hodgepodge of whoever tf decides to show up there based on buffs they received for other roles that happened to make them viable top.
In a perfect world, Quinn is a viable ADC and not a viable top laner, Vayne isn’t viable top, Ryze/Jayce/Kennen are good mid but not top, etc.
Let the tank/fighter lane be the tank fighter lane and balance around that. Quit tossing ranged lane bullies into a lane with immobile champions.
Like most top laners hate Gnar, but atleast he only has 400 range so he’s cool here in my book.
ChaosReyn2 votesThat rework happened because ADCs were a literal joke when they changed all of those items, not because the bruisers took over bot lane.
And to be fair to your point, yes - mid and adc are two of the generally most toxic groups of players imo, especially adcs (this coming from an adc/support guy), and essentially will babyrage over anything at the drop of a hat. Zed recently got nerfed - mid mains who don't play him and adc are still crying "op!" Vayne got nerfed with the gunblade changes, adcs who play her are now crying that shes completely worthless and that Jinx was the more busted adc since before the changes.
If you don't give most of those players something to cry about, their brains will fucking self-destruct because it might finally hit them that most of them are just bad at the game.
Don't make top lane like mid or bot...just trust me, that change, like your bot laner, will not be good for anything.
LordGeovanni1 votesAdcs were literally instagibbing every non tank class in the game in 3 autos with 2.3 attack speed crit build or 5 autos with on hit item builds with 2.5 attack speed. Adcs got buffed in base stats for all the damage the lost and some health when adc items changed then they got their items reverted with no negative change to their base stats when the items reverted just because solo q doesnt go ad tank with black cleaver again while adcs go crit is the only reason we didnt just revert to the same thing. aka bad players forget what was good and why.
ChaosReyn1 votesThe item changes were reverted because they were garbage...I give you your point that the buffs they gained should also have been reverted, but the changes they made to the AD items were at best garbage, and at worst actual sabotage in an attempt to force bruisers into bot lane. It did a lot of damage to the gamestate when Riot tried to force the change to happen. It had nothing to do with not wanting bruiser bot to be meta at that point, and more to do with gutting an entire class of champions because Riot wanted the meta to change that much.
If the meta changes, then it changes. If someone breaks about 20% of their game to try and force that change, then sure, it can happen, but now about 30% of your player base is about to quit the game for an actual good reason (that reason being that you then show you're not afraid to completely throw an entire caste out the window to make another caste feel better).
As I mentioned, I understand ADC mains can get pretty whiny...but that was one time they actually had the right. It'd be the same case as what OP said: you want to shove an entire player base full of champs out of top lane just because you think they should go elsewhere, you're gonna piss off the people who play those champs in top.
And on top of the buffs ADCs kept, we now have a load of new runes that heavily favor pubstomp/faceroll champs over champs that are supposed to live against faceroll champs and actually fight back...so at this point, adcs, mages, assassins and divers are quite a bit stronger than they need to be. I'm not calling for another tank meta, but at this point, changing the runes to not give so many free aggressive stats would globally nerf damage and result in something far easier to balance. Runes should give primarily damage, defensive stats, and utility...not a bunch of lifesteal, lethality, tower toppling and CDR. Damage, defense, and utility, so that defensive runes still actually work against offensive runes, and utility runes help both sides get around each other better without just giving someone the ability to just yeet off anything that moves.
LordGeovanni1 votesyeah adcs were so right that adcs were actually not viable never picked and if they were picked had 45% winrates. Adc2k17
Z3Sleeper3 votesYeah for real let's not pretend ADCs weren't still the predominant pick for their position prior to the revert.
It only hit the crit ADCs at all afterall.
Then we had the Stormrazor ADC meta.
But no no let's not shatter the illusion that ADC was literally unplayable when literally 2 mages and Darius decided to show up bot lane only to be booted out weeks later (cept Heim, he goes everywhere I guess).
LordGeovanni2 votesNot only did it only nerf crit adcs on hit adcs saw the same compensation crit adcs got
U R Good At Game1 votesDespite your obvious bias/hatred of bot, this is sadly the most accurate comment in response to all this. >.>
There isn't a hate for bot, I play supp/adc when I'm not top. I just noticed the shitshow everywhere all the time whenever any champion that isn't soraka support or a marksman bot.
But as I said at a different point in this - the meta sorts itself. If fighters were going to be a meta bot lane option, then they'd be a meta bot lane option. They're not because they don't fit, plain and simple. Neither the constant crying of adc mains nor the pressure from Riot's designers were the deciding factor on whether they could become meta or not. They simply underperform when placed there.
I would also have to disagree that fighters and others just didn't fit. Fighters, AP bruisers and APCs had spots in S, A and B tier for several patches in a row until item changes and mini-reworks as well as ADC tuning pushed them out. Some champions like swain just got gutted so he no longer could go bot despite now being viturally dead in both top and mid because of the nerfs....as long as ADCs are happy, it doesn't matter I guess. The champion despite being able to go both mid and top is in the top 10 for least picked champions now....Point being, it didn't sort itself out.
Ragnaveil2 votesThis. Lets not forget the moment we let diversity hit botlane, they cried days and hours on end and got a hotfix two patches later. Meanwhile it took Riot 3 almost 4 patches to kill Top Vik. Lets also not forget mages whining about Irelia, who went mid because toplane was never gonna be in her favor after her day 1 hotfix nerfs. Few stints here and there in top, and the only people that are successful at her are people who almost solely main her, and even then they've given up on her too, and Akali mains act like they were the victim first and the only victim. Legit, few toplane picks barely get away with going jg, but that in itself is an entirely alien playstyle to top.
LordGeovanni2 votesfix the most diverse, most flexible, most obtuse lane in the game
this is exactly the problem with top lane trying to let everything be viable there.
several ways to fix top lane are
1: an actual noticeable and relevant base stat disparity between Melee and Ranged champions a mage having 430 hp level 1 a marksmen having 465 a fighter having 620 a tank having 660 (ball park numbers not even touching magic resist and armor)
2: Making ranged champions 30- 100 units slower than ms than the slowest melee champion the higher end of being 30 slower is for lower damage supports and the lower end of 100 units slower is for heavier damage dealing adcs and one shot burst mages.
3: a Taking away all the free movement speed that longer ranged champions have Removing it from top damage items like 
. and severely gating the strength of movement speed skills like Draven's w Removing its reset on q catch its already comepensated by letting him throw his q again for absolutely free removing the free movement speed from jhin on crits and w. making MF's movement speed passive strut 6-34 based on w rank ms massively increasing the movement speed of all movement ablites on assassins marksmen and mages.
4: some dashes and / blinks need nerfs to how smooth they are nerfed even some on melee's some need shorter ranges (tristana's w) and all on adcs mages and assassins need much higher cooldowns. to the point where they cant reasonably use q/w/e to run from a gank or engage in lane and just wait it out a short while near tower without missing lots of cs in lane. Outside of Adcs mages and assassins there arent much that also need mobility changes
Basically Adcs Mages and assassins need to have their movement abilites valued more highly in their power budget. especially the ones with no condition dashes that can just press dashes and move around the map faster or press movement speed and get an absolutely massive movement speed buff (not to mention the atttack speed buffs and often resets by simpily auto attacking
LatetotheRace2 votesNerf Fighter item CDR options, and rework juggernauts away from being feast and famine monsters. And oh yeah, nerf tank damage scaling. I've mained tanks top for the last 4-5~ seasons and that's my main take away.
ChaosReyn1 votesThat's probably the most fair thing I've gotten out of this question. When you nerf the CDR options, are you thinking more "separate the CDR and damage into 2 items so you can buff both a bit but make the combo take an extra item slot" or just "prioritize fighter items having either more damage or more CDR, and not decent amounts of both at once?"
LatetotheRace1 votes
Of course I can't have it one way at all, so I would simply limit CDR to a maximum of 10% per item, but add more 5% on other items as well.~~
Separating items is nice and all, but without an entire item overall (which IMO needs to happen anyway) there'd be no practical way to balance _everything_ well. So i'll just sit with reducing maximum cdr from any item and add more lower cdr options. Kind of back to season 4 where not everyone rushed or even got 30-40% cdr.
DuskDaUmbreon5 votesSo....You're not actually complaining about balance, you're just complaining about Riven?
Then you shouldn't have lied to us and said this was all about how significant the nerfs were. A rant about Riven is fine, but you outright lied and said this was about balance.
Ragnaveil1 votesI could make an entire separate post about toplane balance, and i'd bet a million bucks no one would give a shit just like they have for the past 6+ seasons.
Salron7 votesI could care less on how "significant" they were. She's still absolutely infurating to fight
So then you're not here to talk balance, you're here to whine about your feelings. Why not say that from the start?
https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Riven/Top/historic/ from 53%~ average WR to 51.5% average WR after her nerfs 1.5% drop in WR combined with a drop in pickrate of 4%(That's a 33% drop in relative pickrate) indicates the nerfs were anything BUT minor
DuskDaUmbreon6 votesHey, since you apparently didn't know (it's fine, not everyone does): Riven's E is the basis of 90% of her cancels and combos. Increasing its cooldown means almost every combo and cancel she has gets a longer cooldown as well.
It's also the only way for her to actually survive fights.
Saianna4 votesIt's also the only way for her to actually survive fights.
That is sooooo cheesy I almost felt it in the air.
Ragnaveil1 votesOk, then Q just replaced it with practically 3 microdashes. So now Q will be the basis of 90% of her cancels and combos. You practically traded out a defensive thing (that barely hurts her since the scaling never was touched), and Riven's can simply band aid the nerf by going SoS. They lose nothing from going that item anyway cuz it gives damage health and 20% cdr, Riven's cheese stat.
DuskDaUmbreon3 votesThe number of the dashes is irrelevant, it's her E in particular that's the basis of her combos, since that particular ability is required for a huge number of cancels that can only be replaced by flash and nothing else available to her
Ragnaveil1 votesOk, and for the loss of that, she gains a astronomical amount of DPS, which was my issue with her more than her shield spam. The ability to output massive damage with just cdr components is plain wrong considering her R2 is a execute (people have told me it isn't, but if the damage scales by missing hp, its an execute). If her R2 wasnt a execute, I wouldnt have a problem chipping a small bit of damage from her kit instead of what they did for changes.
DuskDaUmbreon6 votesThey were still massive...?
Ragnaveil6 votesFor what, 3 days?
ModWulf Helhammer8 voteshttps://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/287799626168401921/583086050168143878/Capture.PNG
That's from 52.24% to 51.02% win rate, and 10.06% to 6.23% pick rate.
Complain about Riven all you want, but those were nerfs, and they did have significant impacts on her performance and popularity. Those are simply the facts, and you cannot deny that.
Thingamajig6 votes[{quoted}](name=Wilk Rycerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PworUwrO,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-29T00:17:43.453+0000)
Complain about Riven all you want, but those were nerfs, and they did have significant impacts on her performance and popularity. Those are simply the facts, and you cannot deny that.
i wouldn't call it significant
Sylas had a significant reaction to his E nerf before people begrudgingly switched to E max 2nd which is still a 2% win rate drop after 3 patches of getting used to it Rivens nerf is just a slap her win rate will bounce back to 52%+ her pickrate might not bounce back but her power as a champion didn't really shift much
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesFrom elsewhere on this thread:
(...) https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Riven/Top/historic/ from 53%~ average WR to 51.5% average WR after her nerfs 1.5% drop in WR combined with a drop in pickrate of 4%(That's a 33% drop in relative pickrate) indicates the nerfs were anything BUT minor
Plat HardstuckXD4 votes[{quoted}](name=Wilk Rycerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PworUwrO,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-29T00:17:43.453+0000)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/287799626168401921/583086050168143878/Capture.PNG
That's from 52.24% to 51.02% win rate, and 10.06% to 6.23% pick rate.
Complain about Riven all you want, but those were nerfs, and they did have significant impacts on her performance and popularity. Those are simply the facts, and you cannot deny that.
There was no nerfs just one and they compensated by buffing her Q.
DuskDaUmbreon4 votesOkay. And that compensation was NOWHERE near as strong as the nerf.
Almost every combo and cancel she has involves E. You do the math to figure out how much that cuts her combos.
SilentBomber1 votes[{quoted}](name=Wilk Rycerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PworUwrO,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-05-29T00:17:43.453+0000)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/287799626168401921/583086050168143878/Capture.PNG
That's from 52.24% to 51.02% win rate, and 10.06% to 6.23% pick rate.
Complain about Riven all you want, but those were nerfs, and they did have significant impacts on her performance and popularity. Those are simply the facts, and you cannot deny that.
Plus Compensation buffs!That CD at her Q i mean.
LordGeovanni1 votesthats only relative to what it was not its power overall
DuskDaUmbreon3 votesIt forced a lot of the less-experienced away. Playrate dropped significantly. Winrate still went down by 2-3%.
Guess large winrate and playrate drops don't mean nerfs though, because the champion is still viable.
Cevrad5 votesThey were huge. She can't just facetank a team with perma shield anymore lol. But the champion was so insanely dumb when ahead that she is now just in line with where she is supposed to be.
Inasnity Valor3 votesOh boy... back here again. Dude doesn't want a champion nerf, he wants a champion gut.
Ragnaveil1 votesDid I say anything about gutting? Pretty sure I didn't.
Pika Fox3 votesIf you dont think these were nerfs, then you dont play riven. At best its a buff to players that cant play her properly. To any riven main, it was a massive gutting. Her E sets up LITERALLY EVERYTHING in her kit.
Ragnaveil1 votesIf anything, its the opposite. Its a nerf to bad riven players, and a buff to good riven players. If her winrate hasn't tanked to 49 or below, then that means it at most forced them to rethink combos, but thats about it. She lost uptime on tanking for more DPS. Lets also not forget SoS is a thing, so if the nerfs suddenly hurt too much, they'll simply slot that item in and remove BC from buildpath and later on buy a LW item.
Pika Fox2 votesIf anything, its the opposite. Its a nerf to bad riven players, and a buff to good riven players. If her winrate hasn't tanked to 49 or below, then that means it at most forced them to rethink combos, but thats about it. She lost uptime on tanking for more DPS. Lets also not forget SoS is a thing, so if the nerfs suddenly hurt too much, they'll simply slot that item in and remove BC from buildpath and later on buy a LW item.
You clearly dont know how to play riven then. If you even remotely think these are buffs to good rivens, youre just flat out wrong.
Everything, from lane trading to all ins to proper movement, relies on E. All your combos rely on E. Your entire kit is your E.
Ragnaveil1 votesso a DPS buff overall is a nerf. Mk.
Pika Fox2 votesso a DPS buff overall is a nerf. Mk.
Because HER Q IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS HER E. Her E nerf is also a hit to her overall access to her damage. Doesnt matter if her Q does more when her Q is reliant on her E to even be used.
And her trading power is weaker given her shield is up less, which is her major trading tool.
FOR JUSTICE2 votesyou know riven was nerfed well when even hashinshin says "levels 1-9 this is a nerf, there is no way to justify this as a buff" and then explains how much of a nerf it actually is. (satirical, but its actually true)
Daddy Ants1 votes[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PworUwrO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-29T02:31:25.438+0000)
you know riven was nerfed well when even hashinshin says "levels 1-9 this is a nerf, there is no way to justify this as a buff" and then explains how much of a nerf it actually is. (satirical, but its actually true)
Which is perfectly fine considering Riven scales.
Ragnaveil1 votesScales too much. We are kinda forgetting how much CDR has been injected into the game. Her and Jax abuse said issues. The best way to nerf her is knock her passive back to 20% AD and up the cd on her R, or nerf cdr on 20% items. I'd rather go with the lather.