Why does Akali's Q heal her?

Dr40UR·Oct 1, 2018·24 votes·8,432 views

Seriously, just why? I don't get it. Why would you give an assassin completely free sustain for doing nothing but chucking an ability at minions? And it's not like it's a little healing. I've seen Akali's heal over half their health with a gunblade simply off one Q. It doesn't take any skill. I'm okay with her being slippery, with her ultimate, and everything else in her kit. Even the (kinda stupid) "true stealth". But why give her such an easy accessible heal? Old Akali healed, yes. But after her changes to balance her out, it was only on an auto attack. And it wasn't nearly as considerable as it is now. Laning against Akali, seeing as she has no mana, is basically 100-0 her, or just get pushed out of lane or dove eventually. You will NEVER out sustain her on any champion. It's just not possible. As far as I know, there's only two items that are anti-healing in the game. One is a late game armor pen item, one that you wouldn't really want to grab early, and the other one only works below 40% health (or something like that, idr the numbers), which Akali rarely gets to because the second you try to do any meaningful damage to her, she shrouds and runs away. Then she can Q back to full health.

Easy proposed change: Put the heal on her empowered auto attack. Focus her kit more on her all-in potential and aggressive, slippery play style. Instead of being able to Q the minions and heal a bunch for free, she has to actually get in range to hit you with a Q or E and then auto attack something with the empowered auto. It would increase her outplay potential, since she could suddenly get a heal after hitting her E and diving onto you. It'd feel more fair since the player could play around it, and could offer more counterplay to champions that can keep her back.

55 Comments

nelogisOct 1, 201826 votes

Because then she would be punished for mistakes, can't have that!

D357R0Y3ROct 1, 20185 votes

Mistake? which mistake? being poked for free because you're a melee champ with no killing pressure until lvl 6 is now a mistake??

Boards talking about design OMEGALUL

Dr40UROct 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Mistake? which mistake? being poked for free because you're a melee champ with no killing pressure until lvl 6 is now a mistake??

Boards talking about design OMEGALUL

Lol what? No kill pressure until level 6? She has no mana, she has a stealth field, and she has a really reliable gap closer. Akali has plenty of kill pressure pre-6, especially with ignite. She isn't pre-rework Nidalee or something. Not to mention, I'm proposing buffing her all-in and trading potential over her ability to just have free sustain that is way over-tuned. I agree, Akali with short range should be rewarded for being able to get in on mages and trade. But she shouldn't be rewarded for throwing her Q at minions and healing, especially when she doesn't have to worry about mana on top of that.

Imagine if Riven's Q healed her. Just think about that. Every time Riven Q'd on minions, it would heal her. Now imagine that she had that from the start. Would people argue "Well, she needs it, because she has to heal to be able to trade with the enemy top laner! She's a squishy bruiser, so it makes sense. It's always been there!" People would hate Riven beyond everything, because she'd automatically win every single trade with you. The balance would be stupid, and you'd have dumb shit like Riven mid.

RalanrOct 1, 20182 votes

Idk how reliable her E really is honestly. Because of the jump back I’ve always had to basically be in Melee range to land it.

XYGSYSOct 2, 20181 votes

How does the jump back effect your ability to hit it at all? It flies the same distance the indicator shows, and it is not super short range. I have not seen any enemy Akali having issues landing it at max range. Is it possible the issue is with your aim, not the ability? I'm not trying to be rude. I just don't see how landing her E is any different from every other skillshot.

RalanrOct 2, 20181 votes

Honestly whenever I aim at the end the jump back feels like it leads me to miss just short.

D357R0Y3ROct 1, 20182 votes

if you get killed by Akali before lvl 6 you need to question yourself

her Q is terribly low ranged, her E is blockable by minions and dodgeable, Q also costs 100 energy and E has 16 sec cd

Akali before lvl 6 just gets poked non stop, she cannot do anything else and if she didn't have sustain the champ would not have been able to work

Dr40UROct 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

if you get killed by Akali before lvl 6 you need to question yourself

her Q is terribly low ranged, her E is blockable by minions and dodgeable, Q also costs 100 energy and E has 16 sec cd

Akali before lvl 6 just gets poked non stop, she cannot do anything else and if she didn't have sustain the champ would not have been able to work

Even if Akali can't kill you pre-6, which good ones can, you still can't outsustain or pressure her in lane at all. Any mistake she makes is instantly gone in about 2 minutes. She can fully heal from a bad trade or poke in stupid amounts of time. And while you dedicated resources to that poke, Akali doesn't dedicate anything because energy regenerates and her Q has a low CD. Also, the healing goes up and the energy cost goes down as she levels it.

Akali can easily bully people in lane, it just requires understanding her kit. Even if her E hits a minion, you can jump to that minion to get in free poke. Any poke you take back is non-existent since she can just heal it back instantly. She can use shroud to easily get 2 or 3 Q's on the enemy, since shroud and her empowered auto restore energy. You can E to a minion, if for some reason you can't hit the laner, Q shroud, walk out of circle then back up to them stealthed, empower auto Q. And any ability or poke you eat during that is completely negated because of the Q heal. She simply slinks back to safety, because Shroud is still up, Q's minions twice, and is back to full health.

Not to mention, Akali should be weak to poke heavy lanes. It's natural for assassins. Since when were assassins noted as "sustain heavy" mid-laners? Any other melee assassin that's played mid doesn't have free healing. Kassadin doesn't, Fizz doesn't, Diana doesn't. Yes, Fizz has troll-pole and Diana has a shield and Kassadin has some poke. But they can all still be poked out of lane, easily. Yes Fizz can kill you level 3, but 1 you should know that and play around it, and 2 assassins are supposed to be high risk high reward and focus on their all-in potential. Akali is low risk high reward. Which is the issue with her balance. Hence my thoughts to put her healing on her empowered auto attack, because there's risk involved in getting that empowered auto. There is no risk to being able to eat abilities and make mistakes and just heal it back up. In my honest opinion, it's not healthy gameplay.

chipndip1Oct 3, 20181 votes

Aight, guy, I'm stopping you here.

Akali's Q heals for 40% of the damage she does in lane whenever she has most of her energy. Assuming you can accrue about 200 damage for the move (base + ratio gains from the gunblade parts), you'd heal 80hp at rank 5. Are you really going to baby rage like this over 80 fucking healing at level 9? During earlier parts of the lane, it's even less healing. Idk why you're so shook. If you're pressuring her, she can't heal well.

nelogisOct 1, 20187 votes

You want to talk about design?

Yes getting hit by every possible poking ability is a mistake

Why are we not giving Zed a heal on his Q then? Why no heal on Fizz? Diana? Kassadin?

Believe it or not but not every champ has to be good into every single scenario into every single matchup You can actually add a weakness to a champion that opponents can use... you know... actual counterplay?

Tell me the weakness of Akali regarding laning phase pls

And don't tell me "JuSt dOdGe BrO"

D357R0Y3ROct 1, 20184 votes

Kassadin has magic shield to counter poke and his passive to counter poke diana has shield on W fizz and zed can kill laners at lvl 3

inform yourself

nelogisOct 1, 20184 votes

Do you think I'm stupid or something? and Akali has stealth for 9 seconds?

So why does she need 2 things?

Also Diana + Kassa use mana so eventually they have to back and so does Fizz if he wants to trickster every skillshot the enemy throws at him

Fizz and Zed killing laners at lvl 3 has nothing to do with this discussion

D357R0Y3ROct 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Do you think I'm stupid or something? and Akali has stealth for 9 seconds?

since when stealth counters poke? especially when said stealth needs you to reveal yourself+ has 17 sec cd AFTER the shroud expires

Also Diana + Kassa use mana so eventually they have to back

That is true for Diana, kassadin never goes out of mana because he has mana sustain in his kit also right now mana is not an issue for any midlaner because of time warp that is fucking disgusting and won't be nerfed

Fizz and Zed killing laners at lvl 3 has nothing to do with this discussion

what the fuck? why would they need to counter poke if they can kill the people who poke them?

nelogisOct 2, 20182 votes

good luck hitting something you can‘t see

Oh also the guy invisible is movementspeed buffed

Shroud -> spam AOE to clear wave and heal -> wait for next wave -> repeat until you can kill enemy laner

Noice counterplay there 10/10 design

Kassa has to get close to minions to get mana and risks getting poked even more because of that

Also the fact sill remains, they have mana, Akali does not

Getting killed from full HP down by a lvl 3 Zed/Fizz is really not something that should be happening anyways

Edit: Also dont forget that if you yolo something into the shroud and miss then akali will just engage on you since you wasted a damage spell on lvl 3

ParoeOct 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

good luck hitting something you can‘t see

Oh also the guy invisible is movementspeed buffed

Shroud -> spam AOE to clear wave and heal -> wait for next wave -> repeat until you can kill enemy laner

Noice counterplay there 10/10 design

Kassa has to get close to minions to get mana and risks getting poked even more because of that

Also the fact sill remains, they have mana, Akali does not

Getting killed from full HP down by a lvl 3 Zed/Fizz is really not something that should be happening anyways

Edit: Also dont forget that if you yolo something into the shroud and miss then akali will just engage on you since you wasted a damage spell on lvl 3

You do know that Akali gets like... 80 health off her Q, right? Its not a whole lot, and it only happens when you have 80% energy or something like that. "MANA" isnt an argument either, as manaflow band exists.

I think you, much like many people who whine about Akali, just scream "CT CHAMP OPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOP" without actually learning how to play against her or what her very real weaknesses are. Protip; _ WHen akali shrouds, it is not to continue the all in. It is because she is at a disadvantage. WHen she drops the shroud, RUN AWAY, because much like trundle fighting her in her zone is a very bad idea._

The current Akali is a gated, skill based champion. She is also, unlike her peers, balanced in such a way that she alone represents a healthy assassin.

nelogisOct 2, 20183 votes

ok then lets give Akali mana and make her AOE cost 60 mana and shroud cost 80mana then I‘m happy

Since manaflow band exists it shouldn‘t be a problem right?

Right? Fucking hell

Protip: Trundle can be seen the entire time, attacked stunned and kited, he is predictable and cant jump on you out of nowhere also he doesnt have an AOE to clear the wave while he has his arena up and his arena lasts shorter than Akali shroud, also unlike Akali the enemy laner can just let him do what he wants, there is no urge to get a upper hand when fighting trundle

For sure as hell can be compared so well

Protip: Akalis enemy needs to deal with her pre-6 not after, after that it doesnt matter you just have to survive.

Protip: Leaving your laner alone for 9 seconds to clear the minion wave and heal back up is actually not „dealing with her“

Protip: Not being able to deal with a laner you should be dealing with sets you behind. Imagine GP going into every matchup uncontested in the laning phase and scaling freely without risk

Protip: 80HP is actually a fuck ton in the early game, Yorick heal on Q is 30 HP (doubled when under 50% HP). Also its only single target and doesn‘t slow the opponent and cant be spammed with a 3 second CD and that heal alone is enough for him to sustain through poke matchups

I‘m still waiting on that weakness i asked for by the way, still havent got a real answer other than „just dodge bro“

Also I didnt know that a healthy assassin has wave clear and lane sustain together.

Oh yeah wait there is Talon, forgot how loved he is by the community when he is meta

ParoeOct 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

ok then lets give Akali mana and make her AOE cost 60 mana and shroud cost 80mana then I‘m happy

Since manaflow band exists it shouldn‘t be a problem right?

Right? Fucking hell

Protip: Trundle can be seen the entire time, attacked stunned and kited, he is predictable and cant jump on you out of nowhere also he doesnt have an AOE to clear the wave while he has his arena up and his arena lasts shorter than Akali shroud, also unlike Akali the enemy laner can just let him do what he wants, there is no urge to get a upper hand when fighting trundle

For sure as hell can be compared so well

Protip: Akalis enemy needs to deal with her pre-6 not after, after that it doesnt matter you just have to survive.

Protip: Leaving your laner alone for 9 seconds to clear the minion wave and heal back up is actually not „dealing with her“

Protip: Not being able to deal with a laner you should be dealing with sets you behind. Imagine GP going into every matchup uncontested in the laning phase and scaling freely without risk

Protip: 80HP is actually a fuck ton in the early game, Yorick heal on Q is 30 HP (doubled when under 50% HP). Also its only single target and doesn‘t slow the opponent and cant be spammed with a 3 second CD and that heal alone is enough for him to sustain through poke matchups

I‘m still waiting on that weakness i asked for by the way, still havent got a real answer other than „just dodge bro“

Also I didnt know that a healthy assassin has wave clear and lane sustain together.

Oh yeah wait there is Talon, forgot how loved he is by the community when he is meta

Mana flow band is great sustain, and you very clearly have never actually played against trundle it seems. Further, why are you comparing what assassin kits to a proto-juggernauts kit?

Anyway... Math time. Akalis Q does 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 (+ 65% AD) (+ 50% AP) damage with 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% healing. She has 200 energy. Her Q only heals at 180+ energy. Realistically, you get maybe... 100AP in the lane phase. Factoring this in... 125+60 (185)*0.4 = 74 healing at rank 5, meaning that in the lane phase she will not be healing very much.

On to her W... It lasts 7 seconds, gets smaller over time, blocks your E, and has its duration increased by 0.5 seconds each time you weave in and out. Also, since you didnt bother to look it up, Trundles zone lasts 8 seconds. If you decide to stay and fight the champion who goes invisible or controls an area, that is 100% your own fault. You dont have to back to base, you just have to fall back so you disengage the fight. I understand the whole concept of "tactical retreat" goes against the wanton "GOTTA HIT HIGH AND FAST GOTTA FIGHT" mentality so many players who whine about Akali have, but its the hard honest truth.

As for healing, Yoricks heal is 12-82 and 24-164 when below 50% health on a 4 second cooldown. Assuming level 8 (since one point in each ability+4 extra in your chosen skill).... Yorick will be healing for 30 and 60 on a 3.5~3 second cooldown. Meanwhile Akali will be healing for 74 if she has 100AP and only while she has above 180 energy. Yorick has a MUCH STRONGER sustain than Akali does, by far.

Onto your last points then; On a skill-shot based champion, a point which you seem to not understand, dodge the easily dodgeable skill shot IS the counterplay. Running away from their relatively easily manipulated zone IS the counterplay. Not picking a champion that is only targeted damage IS the counterplay. You need to understand that compared to champions like Ekko, Zed, Talon, and Kha'zix the mostly skill-shot based Akali who cant instantly burst people unless ahead IS one of the most balanced assassins currently in the game. Hell, you need to understand that the current iteration of Akali is a thousand times more balanced than the previous version was. Until you do, all of your arguments will revolve around "BUT I SAID SHES BROOOOOOOKEEEEEEEEEN".

Your last point, sustain and healthy assassin... They are not mutually exclusive. AD anything has access to lifesteal, rendering your... 'point' moot. Akali's base healing on her Q is situational, not to mention small during the lane phase. Much like the rest of her, she scales up with more gold.

nelogisOct 3, 20181 votes

Mana flow band is great sustain, and you very clearly have never actually played against trundle it seems. Further, why are you comparing what assassin kits to a proto-juggernauts kit?

Well then like I said, let's just give Akali mana! The I don't care if she spams her abilities and clears waves like a mage since she is going OOM by wave 3

Also YOU were the one to bring Trundle up not me, ask yourself that question

Also kind of ironic how a Jungle/Support player tells a Top/Mid main since S3 that he never played against a Trundle Yes I have, Trundle is easily dealt with if you pick anything but a tank top

And you know why? Because he is still predictable as hell and can't just out of nowhere jump on you with 3 dashes while being invisible

Anyway... Math time. Akalis Q does 25 / 50 / 75 / 100 / 125 (+ 65% AD) (+ 50% AP) damage with 20 / 25 / 30 / 35 / 40% healing. She has 200 energy. Her Q only heals at 180+ energy. Realistically, you get maybe... 100AP in the lane phase. Factoring this in... 125+60 (185)*0.4 = 74 healing at rank 5, meaning that in the lane phase she will not be healing very much.

Ok then let's just remove it and compensate her with 30 base HP and like +1 Armor That would be Kassadins base stats and a little more ontop of that

Fair no?

On to her W... It lasts 7 seconds, gets smaller over time, blocks your E, and has its duration increased by 0.5 seconds each time you weave in and out. Also, since you didnt bother to look it up, Trundles zone lasts 8 seconds. If you decide to stay and fight the champion who goes invisible or controls an area, that is 100% your own fault. You dont have to back to base, you just have to fall back so you disengage the fight. I understand the whole concept of "tactical retreat" goes against the wanton "GOTTA HIT HIGH AND FAST GOTTA FIGHT" mentality so many players who whine about Akali have, but its the hard honest truth.

Ah I just looked it up, sorry it lasts 10 seconds at max rank Autoing 3 times while in the shroud isn't a huge achievment or outplay, so you will always use the max duration.

It would work well if Akali would scale like Trundle, so in other words, like shit. If Akali is an early game bully and is basically just an R bot like Trundle late game then there is no problem but she isn't so it is a problem She scales so she needs to be dealt with in the early game, not after she is level 6, after that you have other problems to deal with.

Also kind of funny to call me a "GOTTA HIT HIGH AND FAST GOTTA FIGHT" guy when I literally told you that waiting out Trundle arena is fine

As for healing, Yoricks heal is 12-82 and 24-164 when below 50% health on a 4 second cooldown. Assuming level 8 (since one point in each ability+4 extra in your chosen skill).... Yorick will be healing for 30 and 60 on a 3.5~3 second cooldown. Meanwhile Akali will be healing for 74 if she has 100AP and only while she has above 180 energy. Yorick has a MUCH STRONGER sustain than Akali does, by far.

Oh yeah so much more He just has to cast Q 3 times to outheal 1 Akali Q He just has to cast Q 2 times when under 50% to outheal 1 Akali Q

Also he hasn't cleared the wave that much and didn't slow 1 (or multiple) enemies while doing so Here look:

New Yorick Q: Yorick smashes the ground beneath him and deals damage in an AOE and slowing all targets hit, Yorick heals for XY amount, doubled when under 50% HP

Sounds a little more overloaded doesn't it?

Onto your last points then; On a skill-shot based champion, a point which you seem to not understand, dodge the easily dodgeable skill shot IS the counterplay. Running away from their relatively easily manipulated zone IS the counterplay. Not picking a champion that is only targeted damage IS the counterplay. You need to understand that compared to champions like Ekko, Zed, Talon, and Kha'zix the mostly skill-shot based Akali who cant instantly burst people unless ahead IS one of the most balanced assassins currently in the game. Hell, you need to understand that the current iteration of Akali is a thousand times more balanced than the previous version was. Until you do, all of your arguments will revolve around "BUT I SAID SHES BROOOOOOOKEEEEEEEEEN".

Ah there it is, "JuSt dOdGe BrO" Ok why is Zoe so hard to deal with then? "JuSt dOdGe BrO" no?

Believe it or not but the only skillshot in her kit that is realistically dodgeable is her E and even that can hardly be called "dodgeable" when cast from shroud.

Everything else is instant, her Q is instant, her shroud is instant and her ult is instant So in other words you are telling me to dodge a Viktor E/R that is being cast right ontop of my face

"JuSt dOdGe BrO" by the way

Also kewl that I have to play other champions because mine can't be picked into Akali At least it's only the ones with mostly targeted damage right? Good thing that there aren't like +60 of those or anything

Noice design

I explained above why waiting out the shroud doesn't help you. Not like you are playing mid to understand.

Your last point, sustain and healthy assassin... They are not mutually exclusive. AD anything has access to lifesteal, rendering your... 'point' moot. Akali's base healing on her Q is situational, not to mention small during the lane phase. Much like the rest of her, she scales up with more gold.

Ah yeah who doesn't know the good'ol Bloodthrister rush on Zed for the mad lane sustain We are talking about assassins, not ADCs, not Juggernauts, not tanks... Assassins

So no, Assassins do not need lane sustain since they have the benefit of high mobility, high burst and roaming potential that the other player doesn't have. Also they don't need wave clear (not easily accessable one at least), pushing an assassin into their tower to get breathing room is the counter to them. Also they don't need hard cc and to this day I still don't understand why Akali R1 has a stun to cancel channeling stuff.

She is the literal definition of an unhealthy assassin The LITERAL definition

ParoeOct 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

snip

Such bias much wow. Theres nothing to be gained from arguing with someone who cant see past the red haze, so ill end this here.

Maybe you should take a step back and stop whining about CT.

nelogisOct 4, 20182 votes

Ad Hominem

Always happens when someone tries to defend an abomination of a design

Here let me sum up that counterplay to her you have come up with

Just dodge bro
Wait out her shroud so she can heal back and push the wave until she is out of laning phase
Don‘t pick one of the +60 champions with targeted damage against her

There is no reason to talk to someone that doesn‘t understand when something is fundamentally shit design

ParoeOct 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Ad Hominem

Always happens when someone tries to defend an abomination of a design

Here let me sum up that counterplay to her you have come up with

Just dodge bro

Wait out her shroud so she can heal back and push the wave until she is out of laning phase

Don‘t pick one of the +60 champions with targeted damage against her

There is no reason to talk to someone that doesn‘t understand when something is fundamentally shit design

Okay. Wheres the counterplay to Ahri ? Kennen ? Morgana ? I dont know if youve realized this, but "dodge the skillshot" is counterplay in and of itself. Especially when a champions kit is designed around landing a skill shot for most of their damage.

You REALLY seem to think that Akali heals a lot for some odd reason, are you confusing Akali healing with base healing+gunblade+runes+level up? Literally any marksman with a item 1055 will outheal akali.

nelogisOct 4, 20182 votes

I'm not talking about Kennen since I don't know how you think that guy is anything but toxic to play against (top lane at least)

Yes let's compare Ahri charm and Morg snare (one of the hardest abilities to land on a non-cc'd ranged target) to an instant casted ability. Oh also let's not forget that Morg and Ahri can go invisible for 10 seconds to set the skillshot up! Oh also let's not forget that Morg snare or Ahri charm can't be QSS'd to stop a full engage or something right?

Also they have mana and can't just willy nilly spam their abilities left and right (other than their wave clear) and don't come here with your "but manaflow band!!" I told you numerous times that we might as well make Akali have mana then (I would be happy with that but you know very well that it will hinder Akali from doing what she is doing right now so you avoid the question)

Like said, you want me to dodge a Viktor E/R casted right ontop of my face. Stop acting like Akali R or Q is realistically dodgeable. It's like saying dodge Lux E

https://youtu.be/dcBEp-y0DRs?t=10m32s

Here lemme dodge that real quick

https://youtu.be/dcBEp-y0DRs?t=12m33s

Not like we need counterplay for a champion or anything like that right? Literally just jumps in your face and presses shroud! Tadaaaaa! You are just zoned out of the fight for 10 seconds how fun is that?!

real 10/10 CRISP design right!

https://youtu.be/dcBEp-y0DRs?t=15m

Not like you should be punished or anything when solo jumping into 4 ppl Oh also lemme dodge that R1 bro, the 0.02 seconds I have for that is too long I think

This is as unhealthy as it fucking gets

You REALLY seem to think that Akali heals a lot for some odd reason, are you confusing Akali healing with base healing+gunblade+runes+level up? Literally any marksman with a will outheal akali.

Ok since you are still acting like it doesn't do anything then might as well just remove it?

Spank the FoxOct 1, 20181 votes

Just dodge bro

XeroKimoOct 1, 20182 votes

Zed can farm from a safe range perfectly fine, because his Q is higher range compared to akali Q, but it also deals more damage, along with the added help of his W->E so if he has to play safe, against poke, he can.

Fizz has his troll pole that he can use to avoid a spell and choose to retaliate because he can engage at the same time with it, and disengage through a melee minion with his Q, so he can farm safely and retaliate. I'll admit he'll have a harder time than Akali in laning phase, especially if you don't know how to play him, but for the most part, he can stay healthy against poke way better than akali can just from that E of his

Diana, can farm the most safely out of all of the 4 examples as her range is pretty damn long, and well she has a shield of course.

Kassadin is the only one that's really like akali in a sense that his Q is pretty short range along with his E, but in trades or even farming, should the enemy try to poke you, you get to mitigate some of that damage.

Zed and Fizz both risk of burning a major spell that's helpful for keeping them in lane, which are both mobility spells and high cooldown, so that's when you jump on them, or they'll play safe until cooldowns are almost up. Akali is similar in that regard, in which she can use her W to help her farm, or just avoid poke temporarily, but you can still hit her with aoe and skillshot abilities in that shroud, so the moment she pops up, you have an idea where you can hit her, so the shroud isn't the best tool to help sustain yourself in lane, but it's a tool none of the less.

Akali also can't farm safely that well because her Q is a pitiful 25 base damage at level 1. Yea try last hitting with that, so most of the time you have to auto the melee minions which you'll probably get poked on, but oh goodie, her Q heals at 180 energy+ and it's a mere 20% of that Q damage. Oh the horror she can heal up when I poke, sure she can get gunblade to heal up more, but that's like ~10 minutes in the game minimum, at that time, she'll be around level 9, where the Q heal is 40% of the damage. In that time, she's healing for nearly jack shit with that Q, but over time it'll build up, and that's her way of being able to stay in lane or else there's barely any way she farm as she'll be forced to give up due to low hp.

chipndip1Oct 3, 20181 votes

Fizz can nullify all incoming damage with a mobility spell...why should he ALSO get a heal?

GabresolOct 1, 201813 votes

Does Akali have any kind of long range waveclear/poke ability, like Zed , Talon , Fizz & Katarina ? No, because her Q sucks at clearing waves until you are level 8. (Zed has 2 of those btw)

So how does she get through laning phase without a heal against all the pokes mages and any other mod-lane assassin has to offer?

SweedishGunnerOct 1, 20183 votes

Do any of those champions have true stealth and an infinite cast range dash? You can't just nit pick certain skills/traits.

Fizz doesn't have waveclear unless he burns his escape, same with Zed. Akali can't clear waves amazingly but she heals off it and she doesn't waste her escapes clearing the wave. Kata, Fizz and Zed have no inbuilt sustain either, only Talon does and that requires a kill onto a minion with Q, it's not his W that heals for example.

Her laning phase should be miserable considering the massive power she gains at level 6.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 1, 20183 votes

An infinite recast that you have to have already landed first.

It's a shorter-range Lee Q with no recast distance limit, not some global Xin Zhao E.

woodvsmurphOct 1, 20182 votes

Zed waveclear dependent on his w cd to compete with others at actually pushing a wave and typically not used as this leaves him with no escape if ganked. Also due to long nature of w cd early game, akali in fact should have more waveclear than zed due to spammability of q - further enhanced via shroud refunding energy for more q spam.

Talon has long ranged waveclear/poke? Not much difference between his waveclear and akali q other than one costs mana.

Fizz has ranged waveclear? Ha ha ha ha ha (that was nunu laughing btw). Sure he might clear the wave faster than akali eventually... but akali also gets healing as she clears wave while fizz does not. So we can continue to point out meaningless differences like this for time to come.

Kat has waveclear yes. If she goes into melee range to pick up dagger. Kinda like... akali using q's and autos.

Literally every champ you picked would either get pushed in MORE than an akali or would get poked out more due to lacking the sustain she has. So... nice job picking examples?...

The thigh guyOct 1, 201811 votes

Because riot wants to see assassins in lc$.

XeroKimoOct 1, 20187 votes

Akali can't really get gun blade until like level 8-9, and that's like ~10 mins into the game, in the mean time. Akali is super weak in lane, she's so open to poke, and her ability to retaliate is very weak. Those heals is really just there to help her get through lane phase, or else she'd pretty much be backing almost every minute, or lose so much farm just to keep her hp up. Either way, she'll lose a lot of farm if it wasn't for the heals. Plus she can only heal if her energy bar is atleast 180/200 which means it takes 8 seconds every Q early game, or up to 16 if she decided to try to trade or, burned 2 Qs in order to farm/thin the wave

ZeromatsuOct 1, 20183 votes

As far as I know, there's only two items that are anti-healing in the game. One is a late game armor pen item, one that you wouldn't really want to grab early, and the other one only works below 40% health (or something like that, idr the numbers)

There are three: item 3075 item 3165 item 3033 Five if you count: item 3123 item 3076

And that 40% health on morello got changed a long time ago, so you always inflict grivious wounds when you deal magic damage now.

But yeah, you can't call that proper counterplay especially since it is only a small part of her kit unlike other kits that completely rely on healing like Soraka or Vladimir.

And I agree with you that she doesn't need it since her invisibility is enough defense for an assassin that also has gun blade as core item. Imagine that sustain on something like Kata or Diana, it wouldn't be tolerated and the only reason none complains is because "but she had healing in her old kit".

DuskDaUmbreonOct 1, 20182 votes

But yeah, you can't call that proper counterplay especially since it is only a small part of her kit unlike other kits that completely rely on healing like Soraka or Vladimir.

Since it's such a small part of her kit, you don't need GW to handle it.

dogehkiinOct 1, 20183 votes

because healing was a big part of old akali's kit and she doesn't have long range poke or waveclear

Pika FoxOct 1, 20183 votes

Because shes a melee assassin with extremely low range and massively delayed burst. She needs some sustain to even stay in lane at all.

Dr40UROct 1, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PwJfvG9e,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-10-01T14:31:16.520+0000)

Because shes a melee assassin with extremely low range and massively delayed burst. She needs some sustain to even stay in lane at all.

https://youtu.be/316DvM5Ehjo?t=40s "delayed burst"

Pika FoxOct 1, 20184 votes

It is delayed. All her damage is in her passive and R2, of which she can only access her passive after running away from you then back in or by hitting a delayed, telegraphed, thin skillshot that is blocked by anything, including her own shroud. And R2 comes up like 2-3s after R1 (and has like 130-160s CD).

chipndip1Oct 3, 20181 votes

Fed assassin with magic pen on a squishy target

"Is surprised"

If she's NOT fed, it's delayed. Once you're 5/0, even Sona mid's gonna look like a monster.

BlåbæretOct 1, 20182 votes

No assassin should have sustain. It's retarded.

SwiftKitten88Oct 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

No assassin should have sustain. It's retarded.

i dont have an issue with assassin with sustain, i have an issue when they have sustain they dont need

for example.. Nidalee and Rengar are both assassins with sustain

Pyke is an example of "sustain" they may or may not be needed.. but is CERTAINLY badly implemented.

as there is literally no time limit to when he can regain his grey health at no cost

this is an example of sustain implemented BADLY.

another example of bad sustain in the opposite direction is RekSai who used to have a very well implemented sustain system... but now has a sustain system that doesn't do jack shit.

Nidalee has great sustain.. but that sustain is VERY mana heavy

costing the same as Lux E by rank 3 and surpassing Luxanna's E costs by rank 4.

having "sustain" isn't an issue because "its on an assassin" its an "issue" when its is unneeded and/or implemented badly

XYGSYSOct 2, 20181 votes

I would not say Rengar has sustain. His W only heals him for part of the damage he has taken in the last few seconds, so I would consider it more like damage mitigation. His W is only useful for healing in a longer (not poke) fight. So if he is getting poked he has no way to replenish that health.

ModBianca ColtOct 1, 20182 votes

If Camille can no longer use her W to heal off minions (cause it was obviously giving her way too much sustain), I don't know why Akali should be any different. At least lower the amount of health she gets back from casting it on minions.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 1, 20183 votes

She gets a significantly lower amount of health from her Q than Camille does from W.

Also, you have to look at the lane difference. Camille is primarily against melee champions, while Akali is primarily against ranged ones. Camille can hit her W on a champion much more easily and while taking far less punishment than Akali would for hitting her Q on a champion.

And Akali's Q is gated behind having to be nearly full energy. And Akali is squishier. And Akali didn't come out of her rework with a super high winrate, unlike Camille did out of her release, so Akali hasn't needed the nerf while Camille did.

Tr4shB4NSYST3MOct 1, 20182 votes

Put her heal back on her passive so she has to take risk to proc it, Q is already overloaded low cd aoe and a slow

Dr40UROct 1, 20181 votes

Yeah, that's exactly what I proposed. Base her kit around the empowered auto a bit more, which would empower her all in when she lands her E and does her combos, and would also let her be better at dueling, but not give her free sustain for no reason.

RavenbornOct 1, 20181 votes

Remove Gunblade, only Kat and Akali use it which makes them x10 more cancerous [sg-jinx]

BisaknospOct 2, 20181 votes

also bad ahri's and lb's because they cant land their e's without the slow

Best Ekko NAOct 1, 20181 votes

Wait, where did you read that Ahri was an assassin? I feel like I'm missing something here...

BigBellBruteOct 4, 20181 votes

Akali's win rate is 46.67% top which ranks 46th out of 50 listed. Her win rate is 44.73% mid which ranks 42nd out of 43 listed.

A better question is why are people still moaning and whining about Akali

Dr40UROct 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Akali's win rate is 46.67% top which ranks 46th out of 50 listed. Her win rate is 44.73% mid which ranks 42nd out of 43 listed.

A better question is why are people still moaning and whining about Akali

Because win rate on a difficult to play champion immediately constitutes balance. Balance, and discussions about it, are completely different than win rates. Akali is by no means an easy to play champion, and has a very high skill ceiling, therefore you'll have more games where inexperienced players try to play her, and don't do it correctly, which leads to her having a lower than average win rate. Seeing as she's quite a popular champion right now, I'm guessing there's a lot of people playing her, at least I tend to see her pretty regularly whenever she isn't banned.

Despite win rates, it has nothing to do with whether or not a specific part of the champion's kit is balanced or not. This entire comment is redundant.

I am not whining or moaning, I'm simply stating that I think it's not healthy for her kit, and should be looked at. By no means does that mean I am crying about it.