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Looking for Assassin All-In Thresholds

Ifneth··1 votes·1,008 views

I’m curious because I have no idea how much they can do, and I need to know because I feel like I’m giving them too much respect. This is not a salt post: I feel like I could play to win if I knew how. Here are some details if you want to know more or give more detailed advice.

I assume that, if an assassin reaches their core advanced item, say a Serrated Dirk for Talon or Hextech Revolver for Katarina, then they can 100-0 at level 6. Specifically, they would use their reach ability, followed by their rotation, along with their ultimate and Ignite to do enough damage to chase me down with basic attacks. Because of this assumption, once the assassin gets their item and level 6, I rush defensive boots after a mana item, stand just within experience range of the wave, do not even try to poke them much less trade, and clear the minions under or just outside my turret. I also assume that their jungler is always sitting in any bush that is not warded.

I would try to shove the wave and roam, but I feel like if I ever stood close enough to clear it, then the assassin would just all-in me. I basically zone myself, shut down my roams, take all pressure off my opponent, and grant their jungler permanent midlane priority. It also means that I cannot press any leads, since I just buy armor or magic resistance with any gold I earn from kills or objectives and play no less cautiously for having it. Yet something makes me doubt that this degree of respect is necessary. Do I really need to play this safe, or am I just scared?

7 Comments

ReshiKillim2 votes

It depends on the Assassin, and whether or not it's an assassin jungler camping your lane. For Evelynn, Talon, Zed, and Kat, you need to be most wary of when they reach level 6. The early items aren't as much of a "kill threshold" as their ultimate is. Your best chance is in interrupting their tempo, which will throw off their rotation. Serrated dirk on Talon isn't that particularly threatening in midlane at level 6, but his main danger at level 6 is in his roaming ability.

There's nobody that can outroam Talon early on, so if you can, you need to keep him in midlane as much as possible.

Playing safe is perfectly fine, because they're major threats. Taking unnecessary risks doesn't help you, but just don't be too defensive. Depending on what champ you play, poking may or may not be vital to maintaining relevancy in mid, and preventing them from roaming.

Ifneth1 votes

Thanks! I can tell you know about this stuff! :)

When I say kill threshold, I mean percentage of max health from which a full rotation plus ultimate an Ignite could get me low enough to AA down. That’s what I want to know, since if it’s not 100-0, then I have some room to trade and then take potions to heal back.

Could you tell me more about interrupting their “tempo”?

I play Taliyah. How important is poking on her?

ReshiKillim2 votes

Poking is somewhere in the middle for Taliyah, it's not exactly necessary, but it's good to do if you can do it safely, as it reduces the chances of them going for a tower dive if they're lower on their HP.

For Kat, Evelynn, and Zed, depending on what champion you are playing at the time, at level 6 they may be able to 100-0 you with a full rotation, hence why I said their ultimates are their main kill thresholds.

As for disrupting their tempo, for example, a Katarina will mainly play around the dagger locations. If you can maintain a safe distance from where the daggers land, it'll distrupt her tempo, because you'll be avoiding her ideal situations, so she'll be more likely to try and poke you down than all in you.

Another example of disrupting a champion's tempo, is Yasuo. A Yasuo player will generally prefer to have things to dash around, such as minions, as that's their main way of making plays. You can disrupt his tempo by maintaining a safe distance from minions, and disengaging by running away from them.

Ifneth1 votes

Right. Ok, I had a feeling that poking them down might help in an all-in, but I didn’t think of a towerdive.

So, against assassins who can indeed 100-0 with a rotation, what should I look to do? I feel like I can’t walk up to the wave, or else they’ll just all-in me. They just stand in my minions and zone me off while I stand under turret and wait for the wave. If I poke, then they just walk back into their minions, and often they take Doran’s Shield and Resolve to make that irrelevant, since their base damages plus Elecrocute and Sudden impact are more than enough.

This raises another question. What if the assassin uses their ult just to trade? It’ll be up in a few waves anyway and either kill me or force me out of lane. I feel like they have no reason not to use it every chance they get, since they don’t need their ult to kill me anyway. It just helps. On the other hand, maybe they do actually have much less kill threat without it. Is there any way to punish this?

Ah, thanks for the clarification on tempo. I should know how the assassin or duelist wants to set up their play and then disrupt or avoid it. That makes more sense. Here’s one I have trouble researching: Fizz. The wiki says Playful Trickster has a range of 400, but I don’t know if that’s the total range or the range of each dash. 400 vs 800 range makes a big difference when he also has a 550 range targeted dash.

ReshiKillim1 votes

I'm not much of a Taliyah player, so I can't really give a thorough set of advice for it, but in general, you're going to want an early Zhonya's if you're playing vs an AD assassin, or an early banshee's veil if you're playing vs AP.

Don't be shy to ask around over at https://www.reddit.com/r/TaliyahMains/ it will likely prove useful for learning her tips and tricks quickly so that you don't have to spend a long time experimenting to learn them.

One thing to remember is that experience on a champion is the biggest helper when playing against them, when they're available in a free champ rotation, or if you have them, try playing the champions that give you a hard time as Taliyah, it helps you be much more familiar with their ranges.

As for Fizz, it's Total range on Fizz's playful trickster, but it's a bit tricky to play around, because he's well, Fizz.

Also, in case you're not aware of it, a tip for facing Zed as anyone with a skillshot/ground targeted CC. Zed's ult will always make him appear behind you, so if you time it right, you can consistently disrupt his ult combo enough to keep yourself alive.

Ifneth1 votes

Yeah, if I can get a resistance item early, then all the health I buy becomes really efficient.

item 3165 + 300 item 3151 + 300 item 3116 + 300

Hello 900 bonus health at full build. I have used this to laugh off Fizz’s attempts to assassinate me. I bet it could work against a Yasuo.

So, maybe I could not panic anymore and just change my build order to protect myself against their kill pressure.

vs AD Start: Doran’s Ring + 2 Health Potions First Recall: Doran’s Ring Second Recall: Cloth Armor + Cloth Armor Third Recall: Seeker’s Armguard

vs AP Start: Doran’s Ring + 2 Health Potions First Recall: Doran’s Ring Second Recall: Null Magic Mantle + Refillable Potions Third Recall: Tear of The Goddess

It feels bad to set my core build back by 1k+ gold for items that don’t build into anything or do no damage, but it feels better than being pushed around in lane.

Infinite Saught1 votes

Katarina's kill threshold is dependent on landing both daggers, using HR or HGB, and procing electrocute. Her kill threshold is probably the highest of all the assassins, most likely due to her now non-assassin status kit-wise. For the AOE damage she gets, she has less single target damage power compared to the rest of the Assassins.

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