Boards›Gameplay

Bruiser Morde build comparison (Live versus PBE)

Malicious Metal··32 votes·3,824 views

Well Riot thinks Mordekaiser can and was only played as a burst mage on the live game. Wrong! I've always built a beefier Morde and did well most of my games. So before I'm gonna do the math and compare the two kits i'm going to list the items I built on Morde: Sorcs Rylais Spirit Visage Zhonyas Rabaddon's Gunblade (Ca. 3000 health, plenty of resistances and 650 Ap)

So let's get to the point of this discussion:

Mace of spades: Current damage: 460 to 814----------> Pbe values: 430/640 ** Loss of 30-174 damage** Shield strength: 161/284-----------------> 120/240 ** Loss of 40 shield strength**

Creeping Death: damage: 1260------------->1065 ** Loss of 200 damage** shield: 441--------------------> 180 Loss of 261 shield strength

Siphon of farm: damage: 640---------------------->575 ** Loss of 65 damage** shield:224--------------------------->120 *Loss of 104 shield strength

Children of the grave (Calculated with a 2500 health champion with 'bout 250 ad meaning that an ad clone would provide much more shield with his aa's but that'd be the best case scenario)

Damage: 60% max health: 1500-ish no changes Shield strength: 525+ 2625 if the ghost gets one aa every second-----------------------> 0 since the damage doesn't get converted into shield+ 1800(2%max health each sec for 30 seconds) Shield generation lost: 1350

Conclusion: Bruiser Mordekaiser does work pretty well currently and the proposed PBE changes really hurt him as he won't be able to compete with similar bruiser champions in terms of survivability and damage (Like Swain, Vlad, Rumble) Since his damage went down a whole **439 damage ** and his shield generation 1754 points!!

I dare you, go play him bruiser style on the live servers and see that he's not as bad as riot makes him out to be and try to make him even worse as they think he is. He works, really well if you ask me and should be left alone until he gets a rework to address the flaws in his kit but the proposed changes only help to push him out of viability even more.

Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

item 3070 Mordekaiser item 3070

Edit: A lot of people are bringing up that these values don't reflect the real changes as they're calculated without magic resistance. So to add some more numbers to the bunch I'm going to calculate the shield strength against a target with 90 MR and also one for minion waves(6 minions)

Mace of spades: Shield strength with 90 MR:89/156---------------------->120/240 Increase of 40/80 shield strength

Creeping death: Shield strength: 243--------------------------> 180 Loss of about 63 shield strength

Siphon of farming: Shield strength: 123-----------------------> 120 Minor decrease of 3

Children of the grave: Shield gain(2000 health/250 ad): 289+1444--------------------------------> 1800 ** Increase of 67 strength** Shield gain ADC(2000 health/350 ad/2.0 AS): 231+ 4000-----------------------> 1800 Decrease of 2431 in best case scenario

Conclusion: Mordekaiser's shield gain will be slightly better while fighting champions with high MR as his shield gain's calculated from his maximum health and not damage dealt, however in a best case scenario his shield will be much stronger once he gets his gauntlets on a fed carry, let's say a jinx with high AS and AD.(350 ad and 2.0 AS). The change to %max health damage increases his survivability against tanks but he never really struggled brawling with tanks given the nature of his cult (%max health shred and 100% BONUS spell vamp) All in all he'll** gain 41 more shield while fighting high-MR targets** but since he'd be wasting all his damage on damage-soakers he would be doing a pretty bad job at being a threat that won't be easily ignored.

If he'd get the** best possible clone though his shield generation would go down a whole 2400 damage**, which shows exactly why he's so strong in turning the tides of battle with the right clone.

Another point I want to bring up is the shield generation in minion waves. What most people seem to overlook is the decrease of shield effectiveness against minions. Currently the shield is only half as strong against minions but the changes would reduce it even further to 30% effectiveness. So let's look at some numbers:

Mace of spades: Shield gain minion wave(6 creeps with 0 MR): 322 shield------------->4.8 max hp= 160 ** Decrease of 162 strength, major nerf**

Creep(huehue) death: Shield strength: 1305(all ticks, 6 minions)-----------------> 0.366= max hp=355 Decrease of POTENTIALLY 950 shield strength, also pretty huge nerf

Siphon of Cs'ing: Shield strength: 672--------------------> 1.2*6= 7.2% max hp= 237 shield Again; nerf of 435 strength

Conclusion: His bad laning phase is going to get much worse with these changes and his lategame shield generation is also falling down a cliff as he won't be able to generate as much shield while shoving out waves. This will make him a lot more vulnerable to ganks and surprise attacks on him while he's farming and pushing. Overall he'd lose out on **1547 **shield if these changes go through, making his landing phase and overall shield generation really damn bad.

Mega conclusion: Not only will these changes heavily cripple his shield generation but overall his durability and laning phase as well as getting caught farming/pushing. But that's not all, since his damage goes down a bit he won't be able to get out of 2-3 man ganks by killing one of his assailants and then retreating with a shield generation bot or killing all the attackers. Overall these changes cripple a not exactly OP champion by making his only redeeming qualities, being his defensive and offensive abilities and the threat he poses in team fights, even weaker. These changes might look good on paper but if these go live I fear for the viability of our Brazilian exchange champion :/

59 Comments

Romans VI XXIII17 votes

Yea I hear you. The proposed changes are so RETARDED. If all they did was keep the W changes (the MS buff) then that would be a good buff in the right direction. But all this Reducing his burst damage and changing his shield to %max HP is stupid. As the Rioter said he wanted him to be a bruiser/fight. but name 1 bruiser/fight that does not have 1 form of CC! I DARE ANY ONE TO (ESPECIALLY RIOTCHUN, the Rioter who is in charge of Mords rework). cause it does not exist, and the Rioter wants mord to be a CC less bruiser/fight. Yea good luck with that.

Mord is literally one of a few champs in the entire game with out CC (others include a few ADCs and assassins BUT all of them have some MS or gap closer) . And he doesnt even have a MS steroid or a gap closer

Malicious Metal9 votes

{quoted}

Yea I hear you. The proposed changes are so RETARDED. If all they did was keep the W changes (the MS buff) then that would be a good buff in the right direction. But all this Reducing his burst damage and changing his shield to %max HP is stupid. As the Rioter said he wanted him to be a bruiser/fight. but name 1 bruiser/fight that does not have 1 form of CC! I DARE ANY ONE TO (ESPECIALLY RIOTCHUN, the Rioter who is in charge of Mords rework). cause it does not exist, and the Rioter wants mord to be a CC less bruiser/fight. Yea good luck with that.

Mord is literally one of a few champs in the entire game with out CC (others include a few ADCs and assassins BUT all of them have some MS or gap closer) . And he doesnt even have a MS steroid or a gap closer

And to compensate for his total lack of cc/mobility he had his strong damage and durability, both of which are gonna get nerfed. It's like they haven't even played Morde at all before deciding to change him. They just should have tried bruiser Morde and realize that he's fine. Also, compare his current damage with any other AP Bruiser and you'll see that they all have similar damage but also have some form of CC or mobility. Morde's damage is justified and if they have a problem with his bursty nature they can shift some numbers away from his R/E and tune his other skills or even better; rework him entirely so they can make him viable instead of trying some bandaid-fixes.

Rew7114 votes

They also lowered his health cost but also the time so now he can lose more health than he did before if used too much. Also, why not just make him more fighter based? Just give him some buffs to his Q and W, he's already not that strong early or mid. But, he was able to hold himself better than now. If these changes go live, I will be sad to get Mordekaiser in Aram. I usually am since he has no sustain already but also no push, no major power, and his W stops barely any damage. If they did want him to be a bruiser then the W's armor and mr should had been raised, just saying.

SuppaSNAFU3 votes

Having to use more skills means more health costs. This is gonna make trading in lane a battle where you can only push to break even. Will his ult continuously grant shield now? That would help a lot, but I doubt this is the case. T_T

Xtremey1 votes

[deleted]

Malicious Metal6 votes

{quoted}

Shyvana

I might be wrong but doesn't she have a knickknack on her ultimate? Besides, she has enough MS to catch on to anyone :D

Romans VI XXIII3 votes

Shys Ult knocks back the first target hit. Good try tho :)

Burnt Iron King8 votes

I've always built Bruiser Morde too and I absolutely love his play style as league's very own raidboss. He can hold lanes by himself, duel almost anyone at full build (Except vayne XD) and serve as a Team's backbone as a tanky frontline with enough damage not to be ignored. His lack off cc is a necessary evil as he'd be OP with enough mobility slapped onto his current kit. He works really well in teams with enough cc (Leonas/nautis, etc.) and gets the job done. I once had to play against a Morde whose entire team was feeding like hell but could defend his own base from super minions and our entire team by himself by simply abusing his teammates as cannon fodder while he cleaned up.^^ I absolutely love this raidboss feel. He's kinda like a mythological creature that appears once in a thousand games, leaves one hell of an impression and vanishes. XD

SuppaSNAFU4 votes

It is fun watching Morde snowball into and plow through the enemy team like an angry locomotive. With these changes it seems like he is gonna be more dependent on the team to make headway. Lord help us if we don't kill the enemy and get our ult ghost.

Ulquiorra9958 votes

I honestly don't get why is there a PBE at all. Thing goes to PBE and no matter how much people complain, how much they do math or bring rational arguments, Riot won't listen and will push it to live. Unless it's LeeSin getting nerfed - the only time I remember they went back on a rework.

Mordekiaser is dead if this goes through. Either he builds tank and gets ignored because he is zero threat with no damage and CC or builds damage and gets instantly blown up because his shield does not scale with it anymore and still deals less damage than before.

Honestly, replace Riot's balance team with a group of trained monkeys, they'll do the job better. They said they want him to be a fighter/bruiser. WELL NAME ME ONE FIGHTER BRUISER WITHOUT EITHER OVERWHELMING DAMAGE OR CC ONCE HE GETS IN RANGE. Because they need one of those two to work. And you are taking this strength away from Mordekaiser.

He's a champion that has clear strengths and weaknesses, dependant on team comps and both sides skill to work. The type of champions that get screwed up constantly while the likes of Gnar Zed LeeSin are allowed to run free because of LC$BIGPLAYS.

Meep Man7 votes

They need higher percentages and his max shield needs to SCALE with bonus health.

Malicious Metal4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-16T23:53:46.050+0000)

They need higher percentages and his max shield needs to SCALE with bonus health.

I'd be thrilled to have his shield STRENGTH scale with maximum health as it would promote buying some health but don't make him dependent on stacking too much of it like the current changes would. Let's say so 10-15% max health and some flat amount ("0*level)

The5lacker7 votes

I like how they're all "We have to decouple durability from a champion's damage output!"

Meanwhile ADCs and Lifesteal...

Vahlen5 votes

No problem guys, apparently Riot thinks putting an enchantment (Captains boots) into a champions kit warrants obliterating the rest of it. Riot's balance team is a pathetic joke when it comes to older champions with no mobility to tweak.

Malicious Metal6 votes

{quoted}

No problem guys, apparently Riot thinks putting an enchantment (Captains boots) into a champions kit warrants obliterating the rest of it. Riot's balance team is a pathetic joke when it comes to older champions with no mobility to tweak.

Unless it's an Lcs pick like Ahri it seems, eh?^^ It's Skarner all over again T_T

Sightless665 votes

You shield generation numbers have a flaw. On live, his shield generation is determined by the damage he does, meaning it is mitigated by an opponent's magic resistance. The PBE version isn't, because the shield it grants is based on your stats. It also decays constantly, as opposed to the PBE. Additionally, taking the ghost's near-optimal shield grant as a standard scenario is extremely unrealistic. In most cases, he will not be getting anything near that from his ghost.

Your damage values could also use some work. Taking a single cast for the Q isn't a great comparison because of the lower cooldown, and you haven't made any mention of the increased damage a ghost would do with the buffs, which would fit in the ghost scenario you've presented.

I agree with you that the changes are likely going to cause him problems, but you haven't given them a fair presentation.

Malicious Metal3 votes

{quoted}

You shield generation numbers have a flaw. On live, his shield generation is determined by the damage he does, meaning it is mitigated by an opponent's magic resistance. The PBE version isn't, because the shield it grants is based on your stats. It also decays constantly, as opposed to the PBE. Additionally, taking the ghost's near-optimal shield grant as a standard scenario is extremely unrealistic. In most cases, he will not be getting anything near that from his ghost.

Your damage values could also use some work. Taking a single cast for the Q isn't a great comparison because of the lower cooldown, and you haven't made any mention of the increased damage a ghost would do with the buffs, which would fit in the ghost scenario you've presented.

I agree with you that the changes are likely going to cause him problems, but you haven't given them a fair presentation.

Happy now?^^ I even added a bonus with the creep shield generation.

ExiledTyrant3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2015-02-17T09:24:10.946+0000)

Happy now?^^ I even added a bonus with the creep shield generation.

I'm going to start by saying I don't know why you picked 90 Mr which is 47% when 100 MR is an easier to calculate 50%. I also tried running your numbers but I have no idea what values you were using. I tried every way trying to calculate what values you could have used at 650 AP and 546 AP and nonE of them came up looking like shielding after a 47% reduction. Moving on I ran the numbers again at 650 AP vs a target with 2000 health and 100 MR.

Morde attacking a 2000 hp target with 100 MR (exactly 50% resist) and a 0 resist minion

Q AOE: 460 x .5 = 230 230 x .35 = 80 shield 80 per minion hit

Q Isolated: 759 * .5 = 379 379 x .35 = 132 shield 132 shield on 1 minion

W: 210 x .5 = 105 105 x .35 = 36 shield 36 shield per minion hit

E: 640 x .5 = 320 320 x .35 = 112 shield 112 shield per minion hit

R: 60% Max health broken in to 30% initial damage and 3% per second over 10 seconds 2000 x . 3 = 600 600 x .5 = 300 300 x .35 = 105 initial shield

2000 x .03 = 60 60 x .5 = 30 30 x .35 = 10 shield per second over 10 seconds 10 x 10 = 100 shield after 10 seconds Total shield: 105 + 100 = 205

Now for the ghost which I use Lucien as my example: Standard ADC build contains about 200 bonus AD.item 3087 item 3072 item 3031 item 3026 item 3035 item 3252 Most item increases and states have been wiped out for Ghosts now so wonky things like Yi’s ult form aren’t worth considering. The exception being something like udyr’s stances or Jinx’s gun. Therefore attack speed will more than likely not be 2.0 for the majority of ADC ghosts. We are looking at a 1.4 or 1.7 in most builds. The chances of someone standing still and letting your ghost pelt away at maximum attack speed efficiency is fairly low so I am restricting this to 1 hit a second. Morde has no bonus AD in this example so only 75% of his base damage which is 87, bonus damage from Lucien’s items 200, and Lucien’s level 1 base 52 are included.

87+ 200+ 52 = 339 339 x .5 = 169 169 x .35 = 60 shield per hit

60 shield x 30 hits = 1800 shield Initial hit + ghost = 205 + 1800 = 2005

For any ghost under an ADC you will basically get half as much if not less :

900 + 205 = 1105 shield

New Morde at 3000 HP Q Aoe : 4% max health, Q ISO 8% max health, W : 1% max health x 2, E: 4% max health, R: 2% max health per second for 10 seconds.

Q AOE: 120 shield per target hit 36 shield per minion hit

Q isolated: 240 shield 72 shield on minion hit

W: 30 shield per target alone and 60 shield per target when cast on ally

9 alone and 18 with ally shield per minion hit

E : 120 shield 36 shield per minion hit

R: 60 shield per second for 10 seconds totaling 600 shields

Now look at that for a moment and see that nothing pulls ahead except Old Morde’s R in the absolute perfect storm condition with a fully built ADC. Look how it takes 10 hits within a 30 second time frame to break even and 11 to outpace his new ultimate shielding. It would take 20-22 hits for anyone who is not an ADC ghost.

Now consider that 3000 health is the bare minimum amount of health Morde builds will probably have vs a much more common 3+ health item build that will yield 3200-3600+ health. Even 4k in some cases. 650 AP on the other hand is the is at the exact top of the power spectrum for AP morde where he builds every item but boots as AP, and has at least dragon buff and pot if not Baron as well. Yet when resistances get in the way the top dps shield of old Morde cannot beat the lowest hp build of new Morde without having a perfect Ghost killing spree.

A Morde pushing this much AP also doesn’t have much room for penetration or CDR so the results will only scale up by about 20% on a softer target (30% resist). That isn’t the final knife in the coffin however when you take into account Morde loses 4 shield a second at level 1 up to 19 shield a second at level 18 without even being hit. His decay rate looks like this:

Q AOE: 4 x 19 = 76 decay 80 shield – 76 = 4 shield 80 per minion hit – 76 = 4 shield

Q Isolated: 132 shield – 76 = 56 shield 132 shield – 76 = 56 on 1 minion

W:

36 - 19 = 17 shield per hit a second 36 – 19 = 17 shield per minion hit a second 17 x 6 = 102 19* 6 = 114 102 – 114= -12 shield

E:
19 x 6 = 114 decay 112 – 114 = -2 shield 112 - 114 = -2 shield per minion hit

R: 19 x 10 = 190 decay Total shield: 105 + 100 = 205 205 – 190 = 15 shield

19 x 30 = 570 decay 60 shield x 30 hits = 1800 shield

Initial hit + ghost = 205 + 1800 = 2005

VS

1800 -570 = 1230 shield 1435 + 15 = 1245 total shield

For any ghost under an ADC :

900 + 205 = 1105 shield

VS

900 - 570 =330 shield 330 + 15 = 345 shield

As can be seen with decay in account old Morde can hardly break even within himself let alone be compared to new Mordes values. The ghost in perfect storm conditions requires an ADC even more so than before considering decay and will never beat Morde’s new ultimate shielding if it isn’t an ADC. There are even more variables to consider when you look at the fact that New Morde can prioritize CDR vs AP Morde and not only generate more shield, but also faster as well. The generation is only slightly weaker vs minions because of the innumerable amount of shield you are generating and keeping vs old Morde’s shield gen. In all situations outside of a very extreme scenario New Morde is tankier and better at shielding.

Burnt Iron King3 votes

Better at shielding maybe, but lacking any significant damage/cc to actually be considered a threat. I'm scared as of how these changes will work out but my gut feeling isn't very promising. :S

Malicious Metal3 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to start by saying I don't know why you picked 90 Mr which is 47% when 100 MR is an easier to calculate 50%. I also tried running your numbers but I have no idea what values you were using. I tried every way trying to calculate what values you could have used at 650 AP and 546 AP and nonE of them came up looking like shielding after a 47% reduction. Moving on I ran the numbers again at 650 AP vs a target with 2000 health and 100 MR.

Morde attacking a 2000 hp target with 100 MR (exactly 50% resist) and a 0 resist minion

Q AOE: 460 x .5 = 230 230 x .35 = 80 shield 80 per minion hit

Q Isolated: 759 * .5 = 379 379 x .35 = 132 shield 132 shield on 1 minion

W: 210 x .5 = 105 105 x .35 = 36 shield 36 shield per minion hit

E: 640 x .5 = 320 320 x .35 = 112 shield 112 shield per minion hit

R: 60% Max health broken in to 30% initial damage and 3% per second over 10 seconds 2000 x . 3 = 600 600 x .5 = 300 300 x .35 = 105 initial shield

2000 x .03 = 60 60 x .5 = 30 30 x .35 = 10 shield per second over 10 seconds 10 x 10 = 100 shield after 10 seconds Total shield: 105 + 100 = 205

Now for the ghost which I use Lucien as my example: Standard ADC build contains about 200 bonus AD.item 3087 item 3072 item 3031 item 3026 item 3035 item 3252 Most item increases and states have been wiped out for Ghosts now so wonky things like Yi’s ult form aren’t worth considering. The exception being something like udyr’s stances or Jinx’s gun. Therefore attack speed will more than likely not be 2.0 for the majority of ADC ghosts. We are looking at a 1.4 or 1.7 in most builds. The chances of someone standing still and letting your ghost pelt away at maximum attack speed efficiency is fairly low so I am restricting this to 1 hit a second. Morde has no bonus AD in this example so only 75% of his base damage which is 87, bonus damage from Lucien’s items 200, and Lucien’s level 1 base 52 are included.

87+ 200+ 52 = 339 339 x .5 = 169 169 x .35 = 60 shield per hit

60 shield x 30 hits = 1800 shield Initial hit + ghost = 205 + 1800 = 2005

For any ghost under an ADC you will basically get half as much if not less :

900 + 205 = 1105 shield

New Morde at 3000 HP Q Aoe : 4% max health, Q ISO 8% max health, W : 1% max health x 2, E: 4% max health, R: 2% max health per second for 10 seconds.

Q AOE: 120 shield per target hit 36 shield per minion hit

Q isolated: 240 shield 72 shield on minion hit

W: 30 shield per target alone and 60 shield per target when cast on ally

9 alone and 18 with ally shield per minion hit

E : 120 shield 36 shield per minion hit

R: 60 shield per second for 10 seconds totaling 600 shields

Now look at that for a moment and see that nothing pulls ahead except Old Morde’s R in the absolute perfect storm condition with a fully built ADC. Look how it takes 10 hits within a 30 second time frame to break even and 11 to outpace his new ultimate shielding. It would take 20-22 hits for anyone who is not an ADC ghost.

Now consider that 3000 health is the bare minimum amount of health Morde builds will probably have vs a much more common 3+ health item build that will yield 3200-3600+ health. Even 4k in some cases. 650 AP on the other hand is the is at the exact top of the power spectrum for AP morde where he builds every item but boots as AP, and has at least dragon buff and pot if not Baron as well. Yet when resistances get in the way the top dps shield of old Morde cannot beat the lowest hp build of new Morde without having a perfect Ghost killing spree.

A Morde pushing this much AP also doesn’t have much room for penetration or CDR so the results will only scale up by about 20% on a softer target (30% resist). That isn’t the final knife in the coffin however when you take into account Morde loses 4 shield a second at level 1 up to 19 shield a second at level 18 without even being hit. His decay rate looks like this:

Q AOE: 4 x 19 = 76 decay 80 shield – 76 = 4 shield 80 per minion hit – 76 = 4 shield

Q Isolated: 132 shield – 76 = 56 shield 132 shield – 76 = 56 on 1 minion

W:
12 x 19 = 228 decay

36 - 19 = 17 shield per hit a second 36 – 19 = 17 shield per minion hit a second 17 x 6 = 102 102 – 228 = -126 shield

E:
19 x 6 = 114 decay 112 – 114 = -2 shield 112 - 114 = -2 shield per minion hit

R: 19 x 10 = 190 decay Total shield: 105 + 100 = 205 205 – 190 = 15 shield

19 x 30 = 570 decay 60 shield x 30 hits = 1800 shield

Initial hit + ghost = 205 + 1800 = 2005

VS

1800 -570 = 1230 shield 1435 + 15 = 1245 total shield

For any ghost under an ADC :

900 + 205 = 1105 shield

VS

900 - 570 =330 shield 330 + 15 = 345 shield

As can be seen with decay in account old Morde can hardly break even within himself let alone be compared to new Mordes values. The ghost in perfect storm conditions requires an ADC even more so than before considering decay and will never beat Morde’s new ultimate shielding if it isn’t an ADC. There are even more variables to consider when you look at the fact that New Morde can prioritize CDR vs AP Morde and not only generate more shield, but also faster as well. The generation is only slightly weaker vs minions because of the innumerable amount of shield you are generating and keeping vs old Morde’s shield gen. In all situations outside of a very extreme scenario New Morde is tankier and better at shielding.

As far as I know the ghost also gains 75% of Morde's ad and benefits from As items the victim had as well as passives like corki's, vayne's bolts and jinx's switcheroo. Fun fact: The clone CAN critically strike :3

ExiledTyrant2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=000e000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-17T13:03:37.085+0000)

As far as I know the ghost also gains 75% of Morde's ad and benefits from As items the victim had as well as passives like corki's, vayne's bolts and jinx's switcheroo. Fun fact: The clone CAN critically strike :3

I added the 75%. it's 75% of total AD. A lot of things CAN happen. I could have put in a lot more variables. Considering a ghost having an optimum 30 second up time is ridiculous enough let alone incorporating crits in the measurement.

Galeo4 votes

If riot would actually care about their champions they'd play them for about 20 games in different lanes and builds and then decide if they need changes. I looked into your match history and you're right. Bruiser Mordekaiser top seems to work really well. Especially against current meta picks it seems. Anyhow, I'm baffled about how many people actually see these changes as buffs and not as the nerfs they really are.

Laughing Cupcake4 votes

I gave it +1 for the math. So many times people complain about champion changes in a vague way, but you actually sat down and worked it out.

I also completely agree with your point. I've been playing Mordekaiser top as a bruiser with similar build ( I like item 3111).

Malicious Metal3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Hex Core,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-02-17T01:38:50.936+0000)

I gave it +1 for the math. So many times people complain about champion changes in a vague way, but you actually sat down and worked it out.

I also completely agree with your point. I've been playing Mordekaiser top as a bruiser with similar build ( I like item 3111).

Thanks for all the support, much appreciated.^^ (#loveyoursupport) What's the point of an argument/complaint if you can't back it up with facts and calculations?

Also hooray for mercs, love 'em^^ i even put them into my guide on mobafire.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

Bruiser Mordekaiser player here, I agree with you. The rework requires you to stack HP and fight with Liandries/Rylais basically; which sucks ( played it with live morde multiple times, you are 100% team reliant with no mobility and no CC until rylai's )

Please don't go through with the changes, because knowing Riot once they go through with changes they never get reverted. Riot doesn't acknowledge & revert balance mistakes, they either change them to new ones or leave them bad.

Again, PLEASE don't go through with the changes.

Malicious Metal3 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-02-17T01:59:11.519+0000)

Bruiser Mordekaiser player here, I agree with you. The rework requires you to stack HP and fight with Liandries/Rylais basically; which sucks ( played it with live morde multiple times, you are 100 team reliant with no mobility and no CC until rylai's )

Please don't go through with the changes, because knowing Riot once they go through with changes they never get reverted. Riot doesn't acknowledge & revert balance mistakes, they either change them to new ones or leave them bad.

Again, PLEASE don't go through with the changes.

Morde's shield should actually help him not to stack health but to focus on resistances and damage. Like Vlad's passive; Offense that scales on defense and vice versa.

Besides, stacking health in a game where nearly every champion got some % shred and Bork/Lw exists is a really, really bad idea.

I really hope these changes don't go through too, if morde needs changes they have to be well thought out and backed up by proper arguments and not something like these rushed changes that are only proposed for the sake of changing.

agbudar3 votes

only if you would build full tank and maybe a WoTA would your shield regen be better then the old one but that requires like 4.5 K + health...... no damage to speak of at that point.

Malicious Metal4 votes

{quoted}

only if you would build full tank and maybe a WoTA would your shield regen be better then the old one but that requires like 4.5 K + health...... no damage to speak of at that point.

And what's the point of even playing Morde then? A tank with no CC and no damage is USELESS. For Mordekaiser to excel as a Bruiser he needs to find the perfect balance between defense and offense, which these changes don't really seem to aim for. With his current kit there's plenty of ways to build him, AP bruiser being one of them and pretty damn good as well :I

agbudar3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-02-17T00:53:03.158+0000)

And what's the point of even playing Morde then? A tank with no CC and no damage is USELESS. For Mordekaiser to excel as a Bruiser he needs to find the perfect balance between defense and offense, which these changes don't really seem to aim for. With his current kit there's plenty of ways to build him, AP bruiser being one of them and pretty damn good as well :I

that was sorta the point of my comment. don't get me wrong i used to play ONLY mordekaiser back in the day my super give no fuks about this game being 4v5 build from back then was item 3020 item 3152 item 3068 item 3001 item 3116 and w/e else i needed

i was never into the mid lane morde always toplane bruiser right into renekton.

Malicious Metal3 votes

{quoted}

that was sorta the point of my comment. don't get me wrong i used to play ONLY mordekaiser back in the day my super give no fuks about this game being 4v5 build from back then was item 3020 item 3152 item 3068 item 3001 item 3116 and w/e else i needed

i was never into the mid lane morde always toplane bruiser right into renekton.

I always preferred a more durable Morde so I spent all my time playing league to find the perfect balance between offense and defense and I think this kind of build with 3k health and 650 Ap's as good as it can get for me. Shouldn't a Bruiser be more like a mix between a carry and a tank? Durable yet dangerous? Riot's juts being way to incoherent with what they're saying and what they're actually doing. Leave. Morde. Alone. At least until they thought about some proper changes and played him some time on live utilizing a bruiser build.

Mode's my favorite champion, I don't want him destroyed to "compensate" for an item I never even built :I

TTUPhoenix2 votes

One thing to keep in mind is that his current shield is generated based on damage [i]dealt[/i], not listed damage. If the target has MR (especially significant MR), that'll reduce your damage, and thus, your shield generation. It's very easy to have 30% reduction on most champions at lvl 1, which cuts your shield generation from them by a third. Also remember that shield generation on Morde's abilities (both before and after changes) are significantly affected by the number of enemies you affect. Having Creeping Death on and walking up to a single minion will barely result in any shield generation, but standing in the middle of a minion wave will rapidly charge your shield. In addition, whiffing Siphon and only tagging one or two enemies doesn't generate much shield, but if you can catch 4-5 enemies or more you will generate a lot more.

Also remember that Morde's health costs for abilities and their CDs are going down, meaning that while each ability does less damage, you can use it more often. Sure, Morde will do less damage if he only gets one cycle of abilities off, but in a protracted fight (which is where he excels), he'll be able to cast his abilities much more often than he was before, increasing his damage output.

TL;DR: There's a lot of factors that go into Morde's shield generation beyond the numbers you're listing, and I think that his shield generation is not going to be affected nearly as much. Also, his damage isn't being hurt as much as you indicate.

Malicious Metal3 votes

{quoted}

One thing to keep in mind is that his current shield is generated based on damage [i]dealt[/i], not listed damage. If the target has MR (especially significant MR), that'll reduce your damage, and thus, your shield generation. It's very easy to have 30% reduction on most champions at lvl 1, which cuts your shield generation from them by a third. Also remember that shield generation on Morde's abilities (both before and after changes) are significantly affected by the number of enemies you affect. Having Creeping Death on and walking up to a single minion will barely result in any shield generation, but standing in the middle of a minion wave will rapidly charge your shield. In addition, whiffing Siphon and only tagging one or two enemies doesn't generate much shield, but if you can catch 4-5 enemies or more you will generate a lot more.

Also remember that Morde's health costs for abilities and their CDs are going down, meaning that while each ability does less damage, you can use it more often. Sure, Morde will do less damage if he only gets one cycle of abilities off, but in a protracted fight (which is where he excels), he'll be able to cast his abilities much more often than he was before, increasing his damage output.

TL;DR: There's a lot of factors that go into Morde's shield generation beyond the numbers you're listing, and I think that his shield generation is not going to be affected nearly as much. Also, his damage isn't being hurt as much as you indicate.

First of all his shield generation is going down quite significantly since he will only get one third of the max health values from hitting minions. (0.33% max health from one tick of creeping death) as opposed to only getting the amount halved. Also the only codlin affected by this change is his q and only for 1 second while all the scalings are being lowered and even some base damages nerfed. So yeah, his damage IS going to be quite a bit lower. Also his health costs going down a tad sounds good but only then you realize that they gutted his hp/5 from 1.7 to 0.6 meaning only 3.5 hp/5 at level 18 as opposed to 7.5

These are Nerfs indeed. Not to mention his cult giving way less shield since the damage dealt by it and the clone won't add to the shield gain.

Ralquez4 votes

Also don't forget that with everyone and their mothers packing health shred in their kits or buying liandires or Bork he will actually be taking a lot more damage than he does in his current incarnation, especially since with his live kit, he can build thornmail and abyssal without crying about the lack of health, but with the hp scaling both items lose a lot of desirability

ExiledTyrant1 votes

item 3146 item 3151 item 3116 item 3068 item 3065 item 3158 with health masteries that's 3600 hp or so.

Armor would be at 160 with creeping death up without runes or masteries. Being attacked by someone with 30 flat armor pen and a last whisper would take that down to 74 which is basically 42% physcal reduction

MR would be at 138 with creeping death up without runes or masteries. Being attack by an enemy with 30 flat pen and void staff would take it down to 60 which is basically 37% reduction.

The reductions look fairly high to me considering an AP fighter. Liandries has trouble doing it's job through resistance and Botrk has a nice chunk to cut through as well. These items both lessen the overall bonus AD or AP a build is going to accomplish and they get worse over the course of a fight as well.

You could swap out sunfire or visage cape for thorn mail or another mr item like abyssal and only go down to 3200 health. 3200 health is about the sweet spot in my opinion where anything over is just bonus. Going under 3k is only the real cut off where you would be punished for not stacking health.

Both the sunfire cape and the visage slot could be compromised if you subbed in gunblade for warmogs. Warmogs may arguably be better on new morde. On a 40% cdr morde you only need around 100 hp5 to completly cover health cost on a morde with no CDR much less.

You can get up to 87 hp5 just with 9 over level blue glyphs. I believe is new health regen is 15-20 at level 18 now taking you to 102 hp5.Warmogs would take the hp5 up to almost 150 in combat and well over that out of combat. The sacrifice being less damage and utility from gunblade with possibly less healing while in combat. Warmog would offer far more shield however.

Malicious Metal2 votes

{quoted}

item 3146 item 3151 item 3116 item 3068 item 3065 item 3158 with health masteries that's 3600 hp or so.

Armor would be at 160 with creeping death up without runes or masteries. Being attacked by someone with 30 flat armor pen and a last whisper would take that down to 74 which is basically 42% physcal reduction

MR would be at 138 with creeping death up without runes or masteries. Being attack by an enemy with 30 flat pen and void staff would take it down to 60 which is basically 37% reduction.

The reductions look fairly high to me considering an AP fighter. Liandries has trouble doing it's job through resistance and Botrk has a nice chunk to cut through as well. These items both lessen the overall bonus AD or AP a build is going to accomplish and they get worse over the course of a fight as well.

You could swap out sunfire or visage cape for thorn mail or another mr item like abyssal and only go down to 3200 health. 3200 health is about the sweet spot in my opinion where anything over is just bonus. Going under 3k is only the real cut off where you would be punished for not stacking health.

Both the sunfire cape and the visage slot could be compromised if you subbed in gunblade for warmogs. Warmogs may arguably be better on new morde. On a 40% cdr morde you only need around 100 hp5 to completly cover health cost on a morde with no CDR much less.

You can get up to 87 hp5 just with 9 over level blue glyphs. I believe is new health regen is 15-20 at level 18 now taking you to 102 hp5.Warmogs would take the hp5 up to almost 150 in combat and well over that out of combat. The sacrifice being less damage and utility from gunblade with possibly less healing while in combat. Warmog would offer far more shield however.

Since when is stacking health a good thing? I get that they want him to get tankier but with vayne present every second game I can't see this hppening :I

ExiledTyrant1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-17T08:16:43.485+0000)

Since when is stacking health a good thing? I get that they want him to get tankier but with vayne present every second game I can't see this hppening :I

Stacking health is fine as long as it is backed with resistances. Morde happens to have good resistances. Vayne having a % true damage shred doesn't invalidate this. Vayne is not the entire LoL roster nor does her passive completely wreck buying health in its totality. Honestly 3200-3600 isn't even that bad when you consider champions like Mundo, Sion and Voli who stack far more hp.

Malicious Metal4 votes

{quoted}

Stacking health is fine as long as it is backed with resistances. Morde happens to have good resistances. Vayne having a % true damage shred doesn't invalidate this. Vayne is not the entire LoL roster nor does her passive completely wreck buying health in its totality. Honestly 3200-3600 isn't even that bad when you consider champions like Mundo, Sion and Voli who stack far more hp.

Morde doesn't want to get much health as his shield serves as a secondary health bar. It allowed him to get resistances as well as offensive items to really become a threat. It helped out making him tanky as well as having quite a bit of damage. In other words; it made him more durable the more damage he did, which is kinda similar to Jax's ult, rumble's shield, vlad's passive and Swain's ult. If he has to get a lot of health he won't be able to deal as much damage, making him more of a tank than a bruiser. Think raidboss-like :)

ExiledTyrant1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-17T12:47:41.548+0000)

Morde doesn't want to get much health as his shield serves as a secondary health bar. It allowed him to get resistances as well as offensive items to really become a threat. It helped out making him tanky as well as having quite a bit of damage. In other words; it made him more durable the more damage he did, which is kinda similar to Jax's ult, rumble's shield, vlad's passive and Swain's ult. If he has to get a lot of health he won't be able to deal as much damage, making him more of a tank than a bruiser. Think raidboss-like :)

Stacking health is referring to new Morde's scaling. I usually never played morde with more than 2000-2500 hp before this potential change. I'm well aware how his resist works but you can still build offensive defense items on him your just going to want to hit 3k or higher hp on the new version. In the end he is sacrificing some damage for much more survivability, and an easier to balance kit because scaling everything on damage is problematic. His niche is moving to large aoe damage over time due to his ability to build more CDR with shorter cooldown skills and Securing objectives with his ghost.

Malicious Metal2 votes

{quoted}

Stacking health is referring to new Morde's scaling. I usually never played morde with more than 2000-2500 hp before this potential change. I'm well aware how his resist works but you can still build offensive defense items on him your just going to want to hit 3k or higher hp on the new version. In the end he is sacrificing some damage for much more survivability, and an easier to balance kit because scaling everything on damage is problematic. His niche is moving to large aoe damage over time due to his ability to build more CDR with shorter cooldown skills and Securing objectives with his ghost.

Play him bruiser on live and see, he gets really damn hard to kill and still got magnificient damage :D

ExiledTyrant1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PsHisX6J,comment-id=000600000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-17T13:05:15.382+0000)

Play him bruiser on live and see, he gets really damn hard to kill and still got magnificient damage :D

I have been playing Morde for almost 5 years. He is the champion that actually made me take LoL seriously when the beta didn't draw me in. Mordekaiser is the only reason I come back to play LoL. He is my favorite character out of every MOBA I have played. I have always found him to have high damage but to be moderately easier to kill unless fed. I would rather see him lose some damage to stay in the fight longer.

Malicious Metal3 votes

{quoted}

I have been playing Morde for almost 5 years. He is the champion that actually made me take LoL seriously when the beta didn't draw me in. Mordekaiser is the only reason I come back to play LoL. He is my favorite character out of every MOBA I have played. I have always found him to have high damage but to be moderately easier to kill unless fed. I would rather see him lose some damage to stay in the fight longer.

I'd also love to see some buffs to his tankyness but these changes don't look very appealing. Making his shield strength scale with maximum hp and completely reworking his basic abilities to give him some sustained damage like f.E. Rumble would be great.^^ These changes seem rushed and imo doesn't really suit his current kit. I'd welcome some drastical changes though to make him more bruiser-like but his current kit just doesn't seem to fit this particular fantasy :I

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I really wish so many people would stop bringing up Liandries as if its some sort of abomination against tanks. Even if the entire enemy team was nothing but tanks, I still wouldn't be able to justify buying Lisandries on say Veigar, because his kit doesn't work with it. Only specific champions can buy it and not have it be a waste of gold. This also applies to Bork, just like you wouldn't ever buy Liandries on Veigar, you don't buy Bork on Pantheon.

I do agree that Bork is a bit of an issue when it comes to ADC's and that Riot seems obsessed with putting percentage health damage in everyone's kit lately, but Liandries is definitely not part of problem.

Malicious Metal3 votes

{quoted}

I really wish so many people would stop bringing up Liandries as if its some sort of abomination against tanks. Even if the entire enemy team was nothing but tanks, I still wouldn't be able to justify buying Lisandries on say Veigar, because his kit doesn't work with it. Only specific champions can buy it and not have it be a waste of gold. This also applies to Bork, just like you wouldn't ever buy Liandries on Veigar, you don't buy Bork on Pantheon.

I do agree that Bork is a bit of an issue when it comes to ADC's and that Riot seems obsessed with putting percentage health damage in everyone's kit lately, but Liandries is definitely not part of problem.

Health shred is, and tbh, nearly every fotm pick has some.

Solaxo1 votes

{quoted}

I really wish so many people would stop bringing up Liandries as if its some sort of abomination against tanks. Even if the entire enemy team was nothing but tanks, I still wouldn't be able to justify buying Lisandries on say Veigar, because his kit doesn't work with it. Only specific champions can buy it and not have it be a waste of gold. This also applies to Bork, just like you wouldn't ever buy Liandries on Veigar, you don't buy Bork on Pantheon.

I do agree that Bork is a bit of an issue when it comes to ADC's and that Riot seems obsessed with putting percentage health damage in everyone's kit lately, but Liandries is definitely not part of problem.

Lisandries???

Malicious Metal3 votes

{quoted}

Also don't forget that with everyone and their mothers packing health shred in their kits or buying liandires or Bork he will actually be taking a lot more damage than he does in his current incarnation, especially since with his live kit, he can build thornmail and abyssal without crying about the lack of health, but with the hp scaling both items lose a lot of desirability

I know -_- health stacking is a very bad idea in the current meta and this rework would encourage it. Sigh...

qetzel2 votes

I think you might be forgetting MR. That puts a serious dent in the old shield values, particularly as you only have Sorcs for MPen. Most champions take scaling MR glyphs and buy at least one defensive MR item. Expect your shield values for old Mordekaiser to actually be around 50-60% of what they are currently (Guess 40MR from an item, 24 from runes and 30 base as a squishy - much lower against tanks).

Armour also decreases the Old Ghost shield values by 40% against the lowest possible armour at level 18 - it will probably be a lot worse even against squishies due to runes (normally flat armour).

Bruiser Mordekaiser tends to last longer - the lower cooldowns mean more damage for him. There is also the combat shield decay change - a massive buff.

These are buffs for bruiser Mordekaiser, although certainly nerfs to burst Mordekaiser.

Malicious Metal1 votes

{quoted}

I think you might be forgetting MR. That puts a serious dent in the old shield values, particularly as you only have Sorcs for MPen. Most champions take scaling MR glyphs and buy at least one defensive MR item. Expect your shield values for old Mordekaiser to actually be around 50-60% of what they are currently (Guess 40MR from an item, 24 from runes and 30 base as a squishy - much lower against tanks).

Armour also decreases the Old Ghost shield values by 40% against the lowest possible armour at level 18 - it will probably be a lot worse even against squishies due to runes (normally flat armour).

Bruiser Mordekaiser tends to last longer - the lower cooldowns mean more damage for him.

These are buffs for bruiser Mordekaiser, although certainly nerfs to burst Mordekaiser.

The ghost deals magic damage :P

Anyhow, mages, adcs and the likes don't get as much MR but you have a point there. Still, crippling his damage and taking away the whole "defense scaling on offense and vice-versa" aspect away is a very bad move by riot. Shoeld strength scaling on HP would be a nice change but his shield gain should be based on damage to open up some more damage-oriented build paths and balancec ones with 50% def and 50% offensive items. Forcing him to stack health is a bad design move in the league of tank-shredding.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Malicious Metal

The one buff Karthus NEEDS
Gameplay126 comments
464
votes
Viktor's Patch 6.9 entry shows that whoever worked on Vik has no idea who he truly is >_>
Gameplay224 comments
414
votes
I have achieved my final form!
Memes & Games62 comments
320
votes
There's actually an ingenious way to solve the whole FQC and Ap CDR crisis
Gameplay223 comments
280
votes
A champion should NEVER be made more clunky/less satisfying to play (Regarding Viktor's PBE changes)
Gameplay140 comments
279
votes
Malphite will be the best Camille counter
Memes & Games60 comments
257
votes