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PSA: Lethality isn't broken, you can learn to counter it.

Risen29··8 votes·4,102 views

Daily we see threads where players complain about how lethality is killing them when they have done nothing but stack offensive items as a mage or ADC. There seems to be this entitlement mentality whereby they think they shouldn't have to deign to devote one of their slots to a dedicated defensive item in order to counter someone else's three combined items. I thought this math would be helpful to cut through a lot of the misconceptions people have:

10 ARPEN Maw 3250 10 ARPEN Duskblade 3250 20 ARPEN Ghostblade 3200

9700 Gold 40 Armor penetration at all levels.

15 Lethality Edge of Night 3100 15 Lethality Duskblade 3250 20 Lethality Ghostblade 2900

9250 Gold 30 Armor penetration at level 1. 50 Armor penetration at level 18.

Getting one or two items early will be less powerful than before. By the time you get all three, you might be getting at least 40 armor penetration to put you on par with previous builds. Late game you'll be a big better off, but not by much considering all the late game armor you usually have to deal with anyway.

It's really no different than before.

And it's countered the same way:

Zhonyas hourglass: 45 Armor 70 Ability power 10 Cooldown reduction 2900 gold

Cloth armor: 15 Armor 300 Gold

For 3200 gold you get 60 armor, allowing you to nullify 100% of their armor penetration (which they spent 9250 gold to achieve) on top of giving you 10 left over armor. On top of that, you've got a nice active that is a get out of jail free card if jumped by an assassin.

Guardian Angel: 60 Armor 2400 Gold

Now take all that excess gold you've saved, and go buy a Guardian Angel for 2400 gold, granting you 60 armor, and you'll ruin the day of any lethality stacking assassin. Now only will probably be unable to kill you in a single burst, but if you do die during a prolonged encounter you'll get a second chance.

If you get both a Zhonyas and Guardian Angel then you're still up 3950 gold, free to use on whatever dedicated offensive items you want.

Or combine Zhonyas with:

Liandry's Torment: 80 AP 300 Health 15 MPEN 3100 Gold

Stacked Rod of Ages: 100 AP 500 Health 2700 Gold

For 8700 Gold you nullify all but 5 of the armorpen if they are level 18, on top of gaining 800 health, while still having great amounts of AP and MPEN.

You could also stack an Archangel's Staff and use it for burst survivability. A level 18 Viktor with Perfect Hexcore and Seraph's Embrace will gain a shield for 524 damage. Add a Morello plus Lichbane and it will be a shield for 654.

65 Comments

Hige3 votes

I'm baffled at the downvotes... this community man...

+1 for you

even though, buying armor doesn't help since lethality IS negating your armor thus making your purchases less than optimal, but going for health does work

Risen292 votes

{quoted}

even though, buying armor doesn't help since lethality IS negating your armor thus making your purchases less than optimal, but going for health does work

That is one of the misperceptions about Lethality that people need to have corrected with this thread. Building armor is a good strategy against flat armor penetration (lethality). It always has been. Lethality is only excessively powerful against someone with no armor. Because you have to realize that even a mage can have around 80 base armor at level 18, so really all of your lethality goes just to dealing with that. Any armor you buy on top of that frustrates their ability to kill in one burst. As a result, Lethality is only moderately powerful against someone with one piece of armor. And two pieces of armor can cause someone with flat armor pen to struggle to the point where they are no longer effective at assassination and will try switch targets or wait for a teammate to go in on the target first.

If you build enough armor, it actually gets to the point where the other guy has practically wasted his money on flat armor penetration - He might have been better off getting a last whisper and stacking flat damage with some survivability. Because flat armor pen gives exponentially diminishing returns the more armor someone stacks.

Hige1 votes

uhm yeah I see your point, still I think HP is more effective and it's found on more items (for mages) than armor, of course, with a zhonyas and a guardian angel you're pretty much set to nullify any and all lethality but with HP if you double your base (which rod of ages does easily), you have an equivalent increase of 100 armor or 100% effective health so yeah

Duke Anax2 votes

Certainly depends on the relative values

When you have 1500 health and 50 armor vs 50 penetration. 50 armor equal 750 health and 50 armor is easier to get.

And if you buy combo items with 50 armor and 500 health you end up doubling your damage absorption.

Risen294 votes

{quoted}

I'm baffled at the downvotes... this community man...

+1 for you

even though, buying armor doesn't help since lethality IS negating your armor thus making your purchases less than optimal, but going for health does work

Tested battle strategies, backed up by math, to defeat what they whine so much about - and they don't want it. They'd rather whine for riot to change the game than have to adapt and get better.

Nobody has been able to effectively argue against the case I've made showing why lethality is not a problem. Because of that I take every downvote, without corresponding argument, as proof of the intellectual bankruptcy of the anti-lethality position - They can't defend their belief that lethality is broken so all they can do is silently downvote. Each silent downvote is therefore really just a positive vote of how true my statements are.

Ars Techne3 votes

To what I've seen, it isn't that lethality isn't counter-able. Let me start by saying that you are taking the game as a one to one start which just isnt true. You listed off a lot of items that assassins will eventually get, but lets talk about what they start with. The average mage has, what, 40-50 armor? An assassin can start with nearly 12 lethality to start. So basically, the have a leg up in dealing damage to begin with. On top of that, All of their abilities are designed to burst, so they can normally trade more effectively if they start the trade. There are also several assassin in which are manaless, which means they can force mana to clear or trade till the mage is struggling. The point being, that lethality isn't over powered at 18, it is at 1-5 due to it being available before the match even starts.

The argument isn't over what items are built, but what pieces you are building at the time. Ahri takes a item 1058 first to trade, but then Zed all ins with just a item 3134 , and Ahri dies because she cant fight an all in. Say instead she gets a item 3191 instead, well she is still dead because between masteries, runes, and the dirk that armor is still nulified on top of not getting as much AP to even win trades. The point in this is that the assassin have a leg up from level 1 due to masteries and runes that makes it so you can't survive an all in pre-six which means that they snowball the lane at which point you lose despite your item choices. Saying everyone is short sighted, you are too long sighted. The problem is within the scope you cover, but you ignore the part that the problem exists. Most games with an effective assassin ends pre-level 18 and pre 30 minutes. The longer the game goes, the less effective assassins get, which is your point, but that isn't how lethality is over powered.

Risen293 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ars Techne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pq5EANRL,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-02-16T00:42:25.177+0000)

.You listed off a lot of items that assassins will eventually get, but lets talk about what they start with. The average mage has, what, 40-50 armor? An assassin can start with nearly 12 lethality to start. So basically, the have a leg up in dealing damage to begin with.

Firstly; Lethality is vastly less powerful at levels 1-5 than equivalent Armor Pen was. 10 lethality is only 6 armor pen at level 1. One of the problems on this forum is that people whine about lethality as though it's somehow a new problem, as though armor pen wasn't broken but somehow lethality is.

Second; Lethality is actually an extremely poor choice if your goal is pre-level 6 aggression and kills. I just ran the math and it proves what I've noticed from experience: A runepage of full AD reds and quints is better on Talon than a runepage of full lethality, or even a runepage of half AD and half lethality. You do more damage early on from full AD, but you do less as the game goes on. Full lethality is a mid-late game build, extremely poor for early game. You won't farm well, you won't trade well, and you will have trouble securing kills.

So the reality is the complete opposite of what you are claiming.

Third: Ahri has 9 armor from runes. Which by itself nullifies most of the armor pen gotten from red runes and masteries. Ahri also has 20 base armor at level 1, and gains 3.5 level, to reach 80 base at level 18. So if you take only lethality mastery, Ahri will have a 20% damage reduction. If you take full lethality runepage and mastery, it's 12.3% damage reduction - but your base AD is so bad without runes that you end up doing 12.7% less damage at level 1.

The argument isn't over what items are built, but what pieces you are building at the time. Ahri takes a item 1058 first to trade, but then Zed all ins with just a item 3134 , and Ahri dies because she cant fight an all in. Say instead she gets a item 3191 instead, well she is still dead because between masteries, runes, and the dirk that armor is still nulified on top of not getting as much AP to even win trades.

If Zed can afford 1100 for a dirk, you better be able to spend 300 gold on a cloth armor. That would not only nullify 100% of the lethality, but would probably give you around 7-8 extra armor on top of it.

There is absolutely no excuse for failing to itemize in such a way, especially when cloth armor can be used to build into a Zhonyas.

Say instead she gets a instead, well she is still dead because between masteries, runes, and the dirk that armor is still nulified on top of not getting as much AP to even win trades.

You don't even need a seekers to nullify the armor pen on the dirk. 300 gold cloth armor would do it, and still have enough left over to cover any lethality that your armor runes didn't get.

Getting a dirk before level 6 is pushing it unless you've already gotten first blood. But for the sake of argument let's assume you are level 5. If your opponent is level 5, you're only dealing with 23.39 armor penetration from the enemy (lethality reds, mastery, dirk). Your armor would be 20 base, 9 rune, and 15 from cloth armor, for 44 armor total. 44-23.39 is 20.6 armor. You're getting 17.1% damage reduction - which is actually better than what you had before, because your cloth provides more armor than the dirk provides armor pen. And you only paid only a fraction of the cost that he did for his dirk.

If you really want to splurge, get two cloth armor for 600, and now you've got 26.3% damage reduction. Now you're way better off than you were in terms of survivability, and you spent half the gold.

Ars Techne1 votes

Again I think your scope is too large, and you're taking extremes to base your math on, which is rarely effective.

First, let's start at the base. If Lethality is so terrible, why take it at all? If it is countered so easy and building AD would be better, why ever build it? You say it can be countered so easily by building even the smallest amount of armor and HP, what makes it better than AD. I want your math, show your work, don't just say "I did the math" SHOW US! Information isnt useful if we dont know where it comes from.

Second. You know most synergy stats have a balance right? Building straight armor is useless against AD as Lethality is useless without AD.

Any who, made some some quick charts, heat maps specifically with a couple bars. Did you know lethality scales exponentially? Because that is really good information to share on why lehtality is late game based. That missing info is one reason no one believes you. Straight damage is obviously linear. Did you know that Lethality's damage increases damage faster? Considering you start with some ad to begin with, that would be pretty good. But the point being, where is this balance, AD to Lethality. HP to Armor is around 100 to 10, I forget the exact number but this is my quick reference. So you find me this balance point and we can discuss this. Till then it's no better than bickering.

Zed Stats: Roughly Base AD: 55

If item 1038 is 40 AD 32.5g per AD

If item 3134 is 25 AD, 10 Lethality, 20 MS 4.75 per Lethality

This is wrong, but its interesting, so I'll leave it here. Zeal is worth more than it costs too... odd. Was trying to find G per Lethality against Youmuu's, but I cant get the active without a comparable G per %MS.

So there is a added value for combined items that isn't covered with gold.

Risen292 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ars Techne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pq5EANRL,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-02-16T05:15:39.211+0000)

Again I think your scope is too large, and you're taking extremes to base your math on, which is rarely effective.

First, let's start at the base. If Lethality is so terrible, why take it at all? If it is countered so easy and building AD would be better, why ever build it?

You're the one that said your main concern is the level 1-5 game. To which I pointed out, as proven by the math, that your claim of early access to lethality granting unfair advantages is completely wrong. Mathematically you handicap yourself pre-6 by taking lethality runes compared with AD runes. Lethality runes are a mid-game and late-game pick.

If you want the specific numbers, here you go: I use a level 1 talon for calculations. Using full AD reds and quints, and lethality mastery, he does 60.24 damage with his auto attack against a level 1 Ahri with 9 yellow armors. Using full lethality reds and quints, and lethality mastery, he does 52.62 damage against the same target. A mix of lethality reds and AD quints is around 57.

This bears out what I have learned by experience - That if I want to kill someone at level 2 or 3, I need to go full AD runes. But by going full AD runes, I had better get an early advantage and use it, because mid-late game my ability to assassinate quickly even unarmored targets will suffer.

You say it can be countered so easily by building even the smallest amount of armor and HP, what makes it better than AD.

Lethality is good mid-late game against players who have not built armor because if you have enough of it you can effectively negate all or most of their base armor (which averages around 82). This means you are dealing higher burst with a single rotation.

However, if you build just enough armor to directly negate their flat armor pen (which let's say is around 80 armor), then the enemy has to deal with all of your base armor. And 80 armor is 45% damage reduction, which is a huge deal when you're dealing with an assassin that is made or broken by their ability to burst down a target in a couple seconds. Throw in some extra health on top of that 45% damage reduction, and it can seriously mess up an assassin to the point where they won't want to even try to dive you if you are at full health.

See, if the assassin didn't build armor pen, they would have to deal with that base armor, and that is too much base armor to reliably burst someone down with. If you allow them to negate your base armor without challenging them by itemizing some armor, then you are playing into their hands.

If, however, you do build about 80 armor, then you are basically cutting their burst damage in half - And that will mean the difference between living or dying. And if you don't die then the assassin probably will.

More simple math: flat armor penetration is more valuable the less armor your target has. 10 flat arpen against a target with 20 armor means you have negated 50% of their armor. However, against a target with a lot of armor, flat armor penetration becomes increasingly irrelevant. 10 flat arpen against 100 armor means you have only negated 10% of their armor. Vs 200 armor, it's only negating 5%. Vastly diminished returns.

That is why building even a couple armor items can ruin the day of a lethality stacking assassin. A mix of health and armor will cause even more problems.

Ars Techne1 votes

So this essentially boils down to. If you dont need the extra damage against anyone else on the enemy team, build to counter the AD Assassin?

This is interesting, because it put Lethality in this wierd place that if everyone build armor its pointless, but if no one does its amazing. With that, it means everyone is going to build Lethality till everyone builds armor at which point no one will build lethality. Kinda black or white, which makes the game dull unfortunately. Riot please fix!

Like obviously the Carry wont be building armor, but isn't that why we are seeing AP bot, because AD carries just kinda suck balls at the moment due to them being under powered for how glass they are?

Risen292 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ars Techne,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Pq5EANRL,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-16T06:26:25.506+0000)

So this essentially boils down to. If you dont need the extra damage against anyone else on the enemy team, build to counter the AD Assassin?

That depends.

If you want to counter him while still being effective offensively, then yes, you build hybrid armor and/or health items. Or you build one dedicated defensive item, one hybrid defense item, and put the rest into offense.

But there are other ways to deal with assassins, like having a tank that can peel for you, or supports that can negate damage in some way. But the later two requires good teammates.

Most of these complaining players are in neither situation. They don't have teammates to protect them and they don't itemize correctly. They want to build glass cannon and then complain when the other glass cannon kills them first, even though the assassin or fighter/assassin hybrid is designed to be better at the quick kill than the mage or ADC.

This is interesting, because it put Lethality in this wierd place that if everyone build armor its pointless, but if no one does its amazing. With that, it means everyone is going to build Lethality till everyone builds armor at which point no one will build lethality. Kinda black or white, which makes the game dull unfortunately. Riot please fix!

That's an idiotic statement. It's not dull because there's always a mix of armored and unarmored targets. That's what makes it interesting - You have to constantly re-evaluate your enemy throughout the game as an assassin to determine who can be picked off and who can't.

There comes a point where you stop even trying to attack the tank or bruiser. There comes a point where you stop trying to attack certain Mage/Support/ADC/Fighter players because they have too much defense, or they have just enough defense that trying to attack them might get you killed by their teammates. But they never all build enough defense to negate you, so you start looking for ways to pick off the ones you know you can burst down.

Ars Techne1 votes

With ADC being less and less favorable, there is little reason for mix armor build on a team as mages can get it at less loss. The only other class that doesn't build armor is Assassins. Like Zed can in out on a marksman while barely losing HP if you're good. So, this just comes to the point of variables. It can be OP if you dont have good teammates or armor and not if you have one or the other.

Risen293 votes

I just had a game that is a perfect case example of how a defensive hybrid items can totally shut down lethality builds.

I was swain. My teammates were Nasus, Tahm, Ezreal, Diana. We got a very bad start with top and jungle feeding. Facing Varus mid, I got a cloth armor not long after my catalyst of ages. By mid game the enemy had at least twice as many kills as us.

The enemy Varus, Lucian, and Garen all went lethality items. Their warwick did not, but went AP build. We also faced lux as support AP.

I didn't do well early game in lane, but I didn't die either, because my mpen build was geared towards mid game. So I just farmed and stayed alive. Things started to turn once I completed my rod of ages and seekers into Zhonyas. Now I had too much health and armor for them to deal with, but still had a lot of AP and magic pen to bring them down (Full magic pen runes). My build went ROA>Sorc shoes>Zhonyas>Rylais>Liandries>Frozen heart. I eventually started laughing at their damage and killing them either 1vs1 or enabling my team to kill them as I soaked up the damage. They had max flat armor pen but couldn't touch me. They started getting stomped teamfight after teamfight. We started to claw our way back and regain ground in turrets and gold, eventually gaining the advantage. The only one I feared was Garen because he was smart enough to build black cleaver for the percentage armor pen.

Finally, as we had gotten all three of their inhibs down, while we had lost only one up to this point; One of them finally cried "why did you all have to go so tanky?" I replied "because you all went flat armor pen". Garen said "I told them so". (Our Ezreal had gone AD/Crit/onhit/whisper, and our diana went full AP with rod of ages and hextech GLP. Tahm and nasus went full tank including thornmail and a magic resist item).

Maybe that was a mistake for me to say that, because then Lucian gets a whisper item. Lucian goes for lifesteal/crit/attack speed build instead, because the game has gone on for so long that they have the gold to swap out their entire build. Eventually Varus does gets lifesteal and whisper item as well, but keeps his flat pen. Garen swaps out his armor pen and black cleaver for stacked defenses in an effort to stay relevant late game, but losing the BC was probably a mistake on his part.

They made a comeback and got within 15% of killing our nexus with a center push through our inhib, but since we had already previously knocked out all their turrets we were still in the superior position and were able to kill their nexus on the next push. It was a 66 minute game.

Hige1 votes

Well Swain is particularly a great drain tank but what I wanted to highlight from your post is magic pen runes, this is incredibly powerful for mages even more so than lethality since lethality needs to scale into late game but magic pen does not, also the sources of magic resist in the game are very few and not particularly incredibly cost effective (barring Banshee's) yet you don't see people complain about magic pen :x the irony

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

Well Swain is particularly a great drain tank

I was actually tanking for my team. Tanking for a team that has a tahm and nasus on it. That says something of how good that build can tank, because I ended up being the frontline and initiator most of the time.

But you don't have to tank for your team as a mage. If your only goal is to survive getting dived by fighters/assassins long enough to kill them, or let your team kill them, then you don't need to go full blown hybrid and defense like I did. A couple items would suffice.

but what I wanted to highlight from your post is magic pen runes, this is incredibly powerful for mages even more so than lethality since lethality >needs to scale into late game but magic pen does not, also the sources of magic resist in the game are very few and not particularly incredibly >cost effective (barring Banshee's) yet you don't see people complain about magic pen :x the irony

Champions only have either a base magic pen of 30 or 50. The later only applies if you're a tank or fighter. Everyone else has 30. One flat magic pen item and runes let me negate the magic resist of a squishy. Two flat magic pen items and runes let me completely negate the base magic resist of a tank. If they buy additional armor, I can go for void staff.

For all the whining about armor pen, people don't realize that champions have a base armor of 70-100. So getting three armor pen items, runes, and masteries, only negates a champions average base armor of 82.

It's completely on par with magic pen in that regard - except mages don't have to buy as many items to do it. AD needs three items to negate a squishy's armor, but a mage only needs one.

They are both good at negating base armors, but once the enemy builds armor you've got nothing left you can do other than buy the percentage pen item.

Risen292 votes

I should also add, if people aren't aware, as they seem not to be, you can also use: Rylais - 300 Health, 75 AP, slow for defense and pick off against assassins. Hextech GLP - 300 health, 80 AP, 400 mana, with healing effect. Hextech protobelt - 60 AP, 300 Health, escape.

Use one of those if you don't want to go Rod of Ages.

If you really absolutely must have more AP and armor mixed together, you could try zeke's, but it's not quite as efficient in terms of gold.

Let's also look at what you could theoretically build: Ninja Tabi Zhonyas Liandries Rylais Protobelt Rod of Ages

+1700 Health +75 Armor, on top of an average 82 base armor, for 157 armor.

You'll still have 97 armor left after lethality items at level 18 (not factoring in runes and masteries for simplicity of demonstration). Which means you'll have about 50% damage reduction. Let's say you average 1900 base health. So now you've got 3600, almost doubling your health.

You've got Zhonyas active to break their burst cycle and let your team help you. You've got healing from Rod of Ages as you cast your abilities. You've got an extra dash if you need some space or an escape.

And you've still got +395 AP to burst down any squishy assassin.

No assassin is going to be able to burst down all that. They would need a Dominik's Revenge before they could even think of challenging you.

Of course you probably won't need to go full defense like that in order to survive an assassin's burst. But it gives you an idea of the level of survivability that is available to a mage if they just be adaptive and stop trying to go glass canon every game, especially if they are behind.

If you want to be able to survive an all in by an assassin without relying on peel from your team, then you have to itemize accordingly.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

I should also add, if people aren't aware, as they seem not to be, you can also use: Rylais - 300 Health, 75 AP, slow for defense and pick off against assassins. Hextech GLP - 300 health, 80 AP, 400 mana, with healing effect. Hextech protobelt - 60 AP, 300 Health, escape.

Use one of those if you don't want to go Rod of Ages.

If you really absolutely must have more AP and armor mixed together, you could try zeke's, but it's not quite as efficient in terms of gold.

Let's also look at what you could theoretically build: Ninja Tabi Zhonyas Liandries Rylais Protobelt Rod of Ages

+1700 Health +75 Armor, on top of an average 82 base armor, for 157 armor.

You'll still have 97 armor left after lethality items at level 18 (not factoring in runes and masteries for simplicity of demonstration). Which means you'll have about 50% damage reduction. Let's say you average 1900 base health. So now you've got 3600, almost doubling your health.

You've got Zhonyas active to break their burst cycle and let your team help you. You've got healing from Rod of Ages as you cast your abilities. You've got an extra dash if you need some space or an escape.

And you've still got +395 AP to burst down any squishy assassin.

No assassin is going to be able to burst down all that. They would need a Dominik's Revenge before they could even think of challenging you.

Of course you probably won't need to go full defense like that in order to survive an assassin's burst. But it gives you an idea of the level of survivability that is available to a mage if they just be adaptive and stop trying to go glass canon every game, especially if they are behind.

If you want to be able to survive an all in by an assassin without relying on peel from your team, then you have to itemize accordingly.

right becuase screw what we actually need to build to be good.. screw needing CDR, screw having to do ANYTHING but build those 6 items to try to stop the free lethality you get while building full damage.

your insane... you want to know how many AP champ that build might work on, Swain.. thats about it...

Ratbert1 votes

Only problem is this assumes you both have the same ease of access to gold. If you rush zhonyas you're boned for mana (and to a smaller extent ap). If you rush edge you're fine because 60 ad brings a lot more than 70 ap in terms of waveclear due to autos so you really don't have the same farming capacities.

Not to mention, roa and seraphs are heavily time gated items so you're hoping for a >30 minute game here.

Does GA on mages really work or are you theorycrafting here? I find it hard to believe GA is good if even adcs rarely build it especially because a mage's second chance is usually shit compared to an adcs.

Risen292 votes

{quoted}

Only problem is this assumes you both have the same ease of access to gold.

Why shouldn't it?

If you let the AD assassin get massively fed and you're way behind in farm, then you definitely shouldn't be complaining that he is about to 100-0 you quickly.

If you rush zhonyas you're boned for mana (and to a smaller extent ap). If you rush edge you're fine because 60 ad brings a lot more than 70 ap in terms of waveclear due to autos so you really don't have the same farming capacities.

You're speaking in absolutes that aren't true. Many champions aren't that desperate for mana. And many gain a lot from extra AP to waveclear with. You also have a distorted view of farming effectiveness if you think most assassins use their autos for it rather than AOE abilities. Without attack speed amps, farming with autos alone is very poor speed.

You also seem to be displaying an entitlement mentality - Who says you should be entitled to nullify someone's offense without having to sacrifice something? Giving up extra mana is a minor issue compared with all you gain. Especially since a zhonyas can completely screw over many assassins by breaking their burst cycle, getting them killed by your teammates or causing them to flee without securing the kill on you.

Edge doesn't output as much damage as duskblade or ghostblade. And if it's your first item then you sacrifice waveclear that could have come from something like a Ravenous Hydra (75 AD, AoE autos, active extra attack). There's always trade offs.

Not to mention, roa and seraphs are heavily time gated items so you're hoping for a >30 minute game here.

Most games go that long.

Does GA on mages really work or are you theorycrafting here? I find it hard to believe GA is good if even adcs rarely build it especially because a mage's second chance is usually shit compared to an adcs.

Building two armor items really works. You could substitute GA for any other armor item you wanted and benefit from the extra health as well. You just don't see people alter their builds to do it. They act like they aren't allowed to build a dedicated armor item on a mage.

If you go for a glass cannon build, maximizing offense with no defense, then you deserve to die in a single burst to a full build of lethality and damage.

If you do build the hybrid AP/defensive items, of which there are many, you can make yourself such a difficult target that you'll either be able to kill the assassin with counter burst or allow your team to pick him off while you are in zhonyas.

Ratbert2 votes

It shouldn't because most mages lack the presence of their counterparts until they hit 6. It's like pitting a cait vs vayne and wondering why vayne is struggling to farm (or at least, this was the case once upon a time).

If a mage can't afford to burn mana (which is not a "minor issue") for spells, they're stuck with autos as well. Assassins tend to have stronger autos. What do ads give up by buying edge? They gain a sizeable amount of mr with 60 ad. Add hex and you actually can't do shit. In addition edge fucks any mage that has one cc or one key spell to hit with absolutely no way to block it and comes at a quarter of the cooldown, while not self suppressing yourself.

You seriously overestimate zhonya's usefulness in lane. You're alone so at best you block their ult and survive, burning their edge, perhaps even killing them if they're <50%. At worst it's not enough and you still die because of zhonya's double edged nature and how shitty 45(really ~35 after edge's lethality) armor is compared to mr, and how shitty 70 ap is compared to 60 ad.

"Many hybrid ap items" You got zhonyas, abyssal, and like roa? 300 hp items don't really count because that really doesn't make you not super squishy.

Risen292 votes

{quoted}

It shouldn't because most mages lack the presence of their counterparts until they hit 6.

That has almost nothing to do with armor pen. That's called class design. Mages are generally mid gamers and/or teamfighters.

If a mage can't afford to burn mana (which is not a "minor issue") for spells, they're stuck with autos as well. Assassins tend to have stronger autos.

What do ads give up by buying edge? They gain a sizeable amount of mr with 60 ad. Add hex and you actually can't do shit.

I don't like to build hex because it sacrifices offense for defense - But if they do build hex, then they are itemizing to counter you. You should consider doing the same. Hence, this thread.

In addition edge fucks any mage that has one cc or one key spell to hit with absolutely no way to block it and comes at a quarter of the cooldown, while not self suppressing yourself.

You're not complaining about lethality at this point. You're complaining about spellshields.

You seriously overestimate zhonya's usefulness in lane.

I'm telling you to buy cloth armor to counter armor pen, which you can build into zhonyas. The active is not suppose to be what saves you from armor pen, the armor is.

"Many hybrid ap items" You got zhonyas, abyssal, and like roa? 300 hp items don't really count because that really doesn't make you not super squishy.

Although you can claim it doesn't help, the truth is I already gave you the math in my last post - a full spread of armor and HP mage items would make you nigh unkillable to most assassins.

The problem is you dont itemize to counter their offense.

You're not suppose to do well if you go full AP glass cannon against an assassin who went full armor pen and damage. Their JOB is to dive on and eliminate unarmored low HP targets. That's NOT your job as a mage (unless you're an magic based assassin), which is why you are more vulnerable to them.

If you want to play AP carry, going max damage, then you need a team around you to peel and shield for you. If you don't have that and you want to be able to survive an assassin's dive long enough to kill them, then you're going to need defense so they are frustrated in their ability to do their job.

Ratbert1 votes

Well lets put it this way, you're already at an early game disadvantage and lethality forces you to not only buy your core items but to periodically spend gold into armor which you didn't need to before (except for a brutalizer rush). This is mainly a problem with edge but with so many lethality items, mages need to build an extra armor item just to be as squishy as before and that lethality items provide so many passives, stats and other stuff that the ad really loses out on like 10-30 ad while mages lose an about an item of ap.

Hex doesn't really lose out on offense, you still get 10 ad for your 500 gold investment while seekers has to farm for its 15 ap. It's pretty unfair to itemize against someone who inherently has better items.

One armor item really won't cut it. If tabis can't save me as an adc, zhonyas stats won't do shit for mages.

There is one dedicated armor mage item. There is one noticeably health boosting ap item. If your champ calls for it, you could get away with rylais, hextech and liandrys but that's about it. 400ap, 1.4k hp and 50 armor for all 5 slots is pretty pitiful. Putting any more gold into defensive stats (replacing one of these with a tank item) means you really won't be hurting unless you're a dps mage. Compare that to ad, if you can build maw, edge, mercurial, dblade and mallet you may get 700 less hp but 115 mr and 270 ad. 270 ad >400 ap due to numbers and ratios and 115 mr is a lot harder to cut through (ie. impossible without void) than 50 armor. so mages only win out with hp.

Risen292 votes

{quoted}

This is mainly a problem with edge but with so many lethality items, mages need to build an extra armor item just to be as squishy as before and that lethality items provide so many passives, stats and other stuff that the ad really loses out on like 10-30 ad while mages lose an about an item of ap.

and lethality forces you to not only buy your core items but to periodically spend gold into armor which you didn't need to before (except for a brutalizer rush).

He paid 3100 for edge of night. You could pay 300 for cloth armor that negates 100% of the armor pen on it. Put the rest towards whatever else you want for offense. Or buy more than one piece of armor and be less squishy than before. It's your choice.

Well lets put it this way, you're already at an early game disadvantage and lethality forces you to not only buy your core items but to periodically spend gold into armor which you didn't need to before (except for a brutalizer rush).

You shouldn't be complaining if the status quo is maintained - You're spending almost nothing to maintain it.

Well lets put it this way, you're already at an early game disadvantage

Hex doesn't really lose out on offense, you still get 10 ad for your 500 gold investment while seekers has to farm for its 15 ap. It's pretty unfair to itemize against someone who inherently has better items. ... Compare that to ad, if you can build maw, edge, mercurial, dblade and mallet you may get 700 less hp but 115 mr and 270 ad. 270 ad >400 ap due to numbers and ratios and 115 mr is a lot harder to cut through (ie. impossible without void) than 50 armor. so mages only win out with hp.

Your whining here has less to do with issues about lethality, and more to do with whining about mage vs AD assassin matchups in general. When AD assassins are specifically designed to counter mages who have failed to build defense - That's their job.

I'm pointing out that you do have options to counterplay with itemization. It's your own fault if you choose not to do it, because you are playing right into what assassins were designed to counter.

Maw sacrifices damage for defense. So does mercurial. Assassins don't build frozen mallet. And neither do fighters since it was nerfed. AD fighters/assassins lack good damage items that provide HP. At that point they are itemizing specifically to counter you, at the cost of being less effective against the tank, ADC, or other fighters on the enemy team.

Mages have less armor options, but more HP options.

One armor item really won't cut it.

Nor should it. The problem with some players is they have an entitlement mentality where they think they should be entitled to only build one hybrid armor item and that will take care of all their defensive needs forever, even if the AD has invested in a full spread of armor pen and damage.

It's not suppose to work that way.

There is one noticeably health boosting ap item.

I listed five for you.

Of course you give up some offense for the defense. You shouldn't get both for nothing. Even in the example of the AD assassin build you gave, the AD gives up lots of offense for mage specific defense.

The point is you have options if you choose to use them. If you don't want to use them, then you need to rely on your team to protect you mid-game and late game. But don't complain when the assassin jumps on you and 100-0's you in a single burst because you never built a single defensive item. That's functioning as intended.

Ratbert1 votes

3100 for edge is a steal because it causes a huge disparity in resistances that mages cannot completely negate without all 3 pen items + armor. Sure I can "negate" the lethality with 300 gold, but that's more like 300 gold I never really got anything out of when I need to "negate" the 60 ad.

Lethality is a problem because assassins were already capable of dealing with mages and it's just there to make mages waste more gold and slots with 0 downside.

You fail to realize that once you build too many defensive items you cease to be a mage and you're not much more than a ap bruiser at best, second support at worst. Even with all your hybrid items, you get 50 armor which once again is not enough when ads can run round with 115 mr from tier 2 ad items. How is it fair that if mages need more armor they go straight to tank/support items? Your only other meme option is zekes, but not even supports build that often.

Even with building all your hp items you get 1.4k. Even then, you'll be hard pressed to survive with just 50 bonus armor and the existence of LDR. Again, you cannot build more tank items without turning into a weird ap bruiser that doesn't really hurt anyone.

It's pretty funny that you think mages should give up offense for defense, yet ads don't need to for some reason. How do ads give up lots of offense if they build merc, maw, edge, LDR, boots/pd and gblade/dblade/TBC? A reasonable hybrid build would be boots, zhonyas, roa, 1 hp item, void and according to you, an armor item. That gives about ~425 ap, which is about 200-400 lower than usual while the ad build gives about 280 ad.

I guess assassins forcing all players to go feast or famine is working as intended because building defense only works when you overspec into it (5k gold sink is surprisingly significant) so it's always better to go full squish.

Risen292 votes

{quoted}

3100 for edge is a steal because it causes a huge disparity in resistances that mages cannot completely negate without all 3 pen items + armor.

You don't seem to realize that don't need as much penetration anyway as a mage - Because base magic resist is a static 30 for all squishies. But armor scales up to 80ish by level 18 for most of them. AD needs every flat armor pen item, full runes, and masteries to fully negate most level 18 base armor on squishies. A mage can negate base magic resist using one magic pen item, masteries, and runes. Then they have two other magic pen items to deal with any additional magic resist that is built.

Sure I can "negate" the lethality with 300 gold, but that's more like 300 gold I never really got anything out of when I need to >"negate" the 60 ad.

Be clear with what you are whining about. Is lethality the problem, or are the anti-mage AD items in general your problem?

Because lethality is quite easy to counter without breaking your itemization.

You have absolutely no right to complain about buying an early 300 gold cloth armor when it has an easy build path into a seekers and zhonyas.

Lethality is a problem because assassins were already capable of dealing with mages and it's just there to make mages waste more gold and slots with 0 downside.

This again is the entitlement mentality, which is the real problem - "I shouldn't have to build armor, ever, no mater how much armor pen you build.".

The game doesn't work that way.

There's a reason you're suppose to have tanking, peel, and support on your team - So your mage and ADC can go full glass cannon without getting dived on and blown up. If you don't have that protection, then you have no right to complain that assassins are doing their job at assassinating the carries.

You can itemize to survive the burst, and there is an appropriate downside to doing that, but in a team scenerio you can still come out on top because you'll no longer be the target of assassination.

By the way: Lethality has changed nothing - you could do the same with old armor pen items.

And what you fail to realize, is that with your own fantasy build, you turn the assassin into an AD bruiser. Which is why nobody ever builds it.

You fail to realize that once you build too many defensive items you cease to be a mage and you're not much more than a ap bruiser at best, second support at worst. Even with all your hybrid items, you get 50 armor which once again is not enough when ads can run round with 115 mr from tier 2 ad items. .... It's pretty funny that you think mages should give up offense for defense, yet ads don't need to for some reason.

You're in delusion because you think your suggested AD build sacrifices nothing to counter mages. I already pointed out that you would be giving up massive amounts of offensive potential just to counter the AP carry. You probably won't even be able to burst them down in a single rotation because of it, especially if they have any armor.

You didn't give them a third armor pen item, but give them maw with less AD instead. That means they won't be able to nullify an unarmored squishy's base armor. You didn't give them a dominiks, but give them scimitar instead, which means they can't expect to fight a decently armored fighter or bruiser, and it also means they have no way to increasing their burst damage against someone who has built even a single armor item like zhonyas (because all your flat arpen went just to negating their base armor. Everything they build on top of that is majorly negating your burst damage). You gave them frozen mallet, instead of a high end damage item, which gimps their damage severely (There's a reason fighter don't build this anymore). Especially if they are giving up a Hydra item with it's extra auto-attack burst.

Assassins do sometimes itemize for black cleaver, titanic hydra, or Armor/MR boots for extra survivability when they need it, but they do so knowing they are giving up burst to do it (I never see them build merc or maw, because it only protects against one source of damage and the ADs are just as much a threat to you). The proper time to do that is when you are behind, or when the enemy team is killing you faster than you can get off your damage. At that point it's better to do less damage but survive longer to get off all of what you have.

You need to have the same mentality as a mage if you want to do well, being willing to itemize defense at the cost of damage, proportional to the threats you face.

And, again, you're whining about the wrong things - You're not whining about lethality. You're whining about offensive AD items that have magic resist on them. At least be clear about what your beef is with items, and don't try to claim lethality is a problem when it isn't.

Risen291 votes

Using Ahri as an example:

Let's take the build of Sorc shoes, Rylais, Liandry's, Rod of Ages, Zhonyas, and we'll add a deathcap as the sixth item (not necessarily the sixth item you buy): +445 AP, +133.5 from Deathcap passive. 578.5 AP. Plus Liandry's passive for extra damage. +30 flat MPEN +1100 Health, plus Rod passive for some extra health during combat, and Rylais slow for defense and offense. +45 Armor, plus stasis active to buy time for your team to save you if you get jumped on. +10% CDR

And let's compare to the top winrate build on champion.gg for Ahri (Ludens, Deathcap, Rylais, Sorc Shoes, Morello, Void Staff): +475 AP, +142.5 from Deathcap passive. 617.5 AP. 151 extra damage burst from ludens. Grevious wounds for utility against certain targets. +300 health from Rylais. Slow for offense and defense. Movespeed from Ludens. +15 flap MPEN +35% MPEN. +20% CDR

So, the later gives you only +6.4% more AP. Which, assuming you hit with all your base abilities for full damage, is a difference of 1482.5 vs 1536 damage. Which is only a 3.5% increase in damage because of not being the best scaling. When you factor in Luden's burst, you deal 9.8% extra damage for a total of 1687, or 12.2% total damage increase. Alternatively, if you wanted the luden's movespeed, you could give up a little damage by trading out deathcap for ludens to deal 1414.5 in one burst instead of 1482.5

But because you lack as much flat MPEN in the second build, you will be doing 13% less damage to unarmored squishies if you take no MPEN runes, and 7% less if you take full red MPEN runes. Assuming the later, it reduces the damage to 1569 - Only a 5.6% damage increase versus the defensive build. The first build will also only have their damage reduced 11% against fighter/bruiser/tanks (because they have 50 base magic resist). While the second build will have their damage reduced 22% against the same targets because void staff doesn't work against base armor (only bonus armor).

But wait, there's more. If you sacrifice a Rylais in your first build for a Luden's, you come out with 611 AP. So you lose virtually no damage! Yet you still have +900 health and +45 armor.

The later build only really pulls ahead when DPSing tanks, because of it's percentage MPEN, but that is the job Ahri is least suited to because she can't burst them down even with a void staff. At best all she's doing is making her poke or supportive fire stronger in a team context. However, the advantage of the liandries comes into play versus a high health tank, but I won't bother calculating that because it doesn't really matter for proving my point. So ultimately we conclude: You don't have to give up much, or even any, damage against squishies in order to gain enough defense to put yourself well out of burst range of a full lethality assassin. As I already pointed out on the previous page, the first build I gave gives you an increase of 77% survivability against the burst damage of a full lethality AD assassin (on top of a stasis to screw over their dives), and the damage loss is minor compared with the amount of survivability you gain. In the two build examples I just gave, we see that giving up only one of those defensive items keep your damage on par against squishies while still keeping you well out of AD assassin burst range.

That's an exceptionally good trade off if your main concern is an assassin diving you.

But you have to decide what it important. Do you want to be able to ruin the lethality assassin's day? Well, then you have to give up some damage against tanks and bruisers. You can't do it all equally good.

Full AP builds are for people who have good positioning, the ability to counterplay assassins, or a team that is smart enough to peel for you (Janna can screw over a talon dive every time).

You really have no excuse for dying to assassins if you go with a full hybrid build. And I guarantee you that with that level of damage you output with that build the assassin will die, especially if you aren't alone.

Risen291 votes

I've been messing around in blood moon with hybrid AP/defense builds.

It's actually EASIER to win using a hybrid defense/AP build than using a full AP build.

Because you actually gain more mitigation by mixing the two than they gain by going full AP. Because the hybrid items are pretty efficient that way.

With Ahri, going full hybrid HP/AP items (not a single dedicated AP item) and zhonyas. I used sorc shoes instead of defensive shoes though, to synergize with liandries for true damage against squishies. I just went 13/2/10, earned an S, carrying my team, and I barely play Ahri.

With Ahri, Kassadin, and Ekko, I felt like I had no trouble 1vs1ing people because my extra tankiness gave me more of an advantage than their extra damage did. Proportionally my defense was higher than their offense was vs me. With Ekko and Kassadin there was a greater chance that they would run away before I could kill them, but as long as they couldn't kill me I had the advantage - especially in the context of a teamfight where I could soak up damage and disrupt them for my team to move in and deal their damage.

There was one game in particular where I mirror matched against a Kassadin who went full AP and lichbane, while I went full hybrid defense items. He got completely destroyed by me. Who cares if I do somewhat less damage when I can take three times more hits than he can? He'll lose every time.

Ahri was actually the easiest to do this build with. I never felt like my ability to secure kills was lacking. Unlike the other two, her ability to secure kills is higher thanks to CC and range. She also has the luxury of being able to poke stronger, or play a supportive role with CC, before she moves in close for the kill.

I feel like Ahri is even better than the other AP's I tried because she really only needs AP and CDR to do well. And it's easier to get defense on items that have that. This would also be equally true of other mages like Viktor.

I think it's a bit harder to go full hybrid defense on Ekko and Kassadin when they tend to want some melee amp options like Lichbane or even Nashors. Although I still did well with them, moreso with Kassadin because he is more AP focused than Ekko. But with Ekko I just got a lot of assists, because I fell more into the role of tanking hits for my team so they can move in and use their full burst safely. Kassadin could move in and out more freely, or poke before he went in. Ekko's poke and mobility isn't as good, so he wants more auto-attack ability once he does dive in, because he tends to be more committed. But he also has a shield and reset that makes him more tanky once he's in.

I didn't do well with Daina, because I feel she needs melee oriented items to be optmized rather than strait AP and CDR. She really needs to be able to melee strong to win 1vs1. She can't rely on AP scaling alone. That makes her different from Ahri and Kassadin. She doesn't even build max AP in normal games anyway, so she's not a very good test case of this kind of build because nobody builds full AP diana to begin with. She already goes the hybrid defense/ap approach, while mixing in melee options like nashors and lichbane. I realized I would rather lose one or two of the hybrid defense items on Diana in order to get a nashor's and/or lichbane, because although I was quite tanky I lacked the ability to kill enemies quick enough so I'd die in some 1vs1s. Daina also lacks CC and poke, so she needs to be able to commit fully to the fight with faster auto attacks once she dives in.

That was not the case with ekko and kassadin, where I felt I could easily win 1vs1 fights as long as the enemy committed to it rather than try to run once they realized they couldn't kill me. I also felt like I had more mobility and CC to deal with leaving fights I didn't want to commit to. This also confirms what I've said earlier: The more all-in oriented a champion is, the more they have to prioritze damage to ensure they can kill quickly once they go in.

FireDrizzle1 votes

Building armour to counter lethality doesn't work because of % pen items. And next patch item 3035 removes 45% of bonus armour.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

Building armour to counter lethality doesn't work because of % pen items. And next patch item 3035 removes 45% of bonus armour.

Thats wrong. It already works on bonus armor.

Building armor/health does completely counter lethality. In fact, it counters it so completely that without adding a dominiks you have no chance of ever killing them.

The math has already been done, but a tank or bruiser build fighter will not still not fear being attacked by an assassin with lethality + dominks at all. The flat lethality is increasingly useless against stacked armor, and a Dominik's still leaves 55% of their armor up which you cannot cut through as an assassin. You still need attack speed to deal with tanky targets.

Someone who has not gone full defense, but partial defense and partial offense, will be hit more by it than full defense would - but that's suppose to happen. It helps give the assassin a way to stay relevant and not be completely shut down, but it doesn't allow them to completely overtake the defense of the target.

It's suppose to be more risky to build less defense and go max offense when an assassin around - because that's what assassins are designed to do - to kill the carries. That's why you have peeling tanks and supports to begin with, the protect the carries from the assassins.

Some of you people seems to want riot to do everything for you, not adjusting your itemization or teamwork to counter threats, but just nerfing whatever you don't like to deal with.

FireDrizzle1 votes

{quoted}

Thats wrong. It already works on bonus armor.

It currently removes 30% of bonus armour. But is being buffed to 45%.

"

Building armor/health does completely counter lethality. In fact, it counters it so completely that without adding a dominiks you have no chance of ever killing them.

The math has already been done, but a tank or bruiser build fighter will not still not fear being attacked by an assassin with lethality + dominks at all. The flat lethality is increasinly useless against stacked armor, and a Dominik's still leaves 55% of their armor up which you cannot cut through as an assassin. You still need attack speed to deal with tanky targets."

It's not just assassins, the only vaible adcs are lethality users .Everyone is suggesting mages build armour too. item 3047 item 3157 is 75 armour. With almost half of that ignored and most of your base stats ignored by lethality, you dont even get 75 TOTAL ARMOR.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

It currently removes 30% of bonus armour. But is being buffed to 45%.

Dominiks already removed 45% of armor. What's your point?

It's not just assassins, the only vaible adcs are lethality users .

It's amazing how some people say things as though they are fact, even though they can easily be proven to be untrue.

Draven is the third best ADC by winrate on championGG, but his top and most common builds are not lethality based. Same goes for Twitch at #4. Ziggs is even 2nd best ADC, and we know he's not benefiting from lethality. Sivir and Kog maw are practically the same winrate as Varus/Quinn/Jhin, but they don't use lethality either.

So your entire claim is proveably wrong. Some ADCs build lethality, some don't, but they are both doing well in the top winrates.

{quoted}

Builditem 3026 item 3047 and you have less than 75 total armour vs armour pen. But you counter armour pen yeah rolls eyes. To increase total armour takes a lot of armour. If you cancel out lethality, the lethality items still have 60 ad each and everything else. And the armour is useless vs ap, but apparently full ad comps should outscale armour massively. .... It's not just assassins, the only vaible adcs are lethality users .Everyone is suggesting mages build armour too. item 3047 item 3157 is 75 armour. With almost half of that ignored and most of your base stats ignored by lethality, you dont even get 75 TOTAL ARMOR.

You don't understand the math involved. For one, because you fail to factor in hybrid HP/AP items, which is the whole point of this thread.

Let's look at an example:

Viktor has 90.7 base armor at level 18.

Lethality currently is only 82.5 at level 18 with full lethality runes, items, masteries - And if you go full lethality runes you severely cripple your ability to get early kills and farm effectively because you have no flat damage.

So Viktor has 8.2 base armor left, that cannot be touched by Dominik's.

Zhonya's and Tabi are 75 armor, -10% auto attack damage, and an anti-burst active.

A Dominik's cuts that to 41.25 Add 8.2 base armor on top of that for 49.45. That's 33.1% damage reduction.

Rylais, Rod of Ages, Liandry's, and Protobelt give +1400 health, an escape, and defensive slows.

Viktor has based 1842 health at level 18, so he is at 3242 health. Dominik's adds +15% damage (assuming the assassin has not built health).

So, an assassin needs to be capable of dealing 3828 damage if they want to kill you in a single burst.

I challenge you to find anyone that can do that using a full build of three lethality items, boots, and Dominik's - because the truth is you won't. Assuming they can even get off all their burst between the dash, slows, and stasis active you have to prevent them from doing that.

Let's do a comparison here: Your effective health as a base level 18 Viktor is 2718 (accounting for base armor), versus someone with no lethality. Yet if they build full lethality/dominik's, and you build full hybrid AP/HP/Armor, your overall survivability has increased 52% even after all their armor pen and bonus damage has taken effect! That's why you gain the advantage over them, because you're still doing good damage to them but they aren't as effective at dealing damage to you (If you go full MPEN runes/masteries, with sorc shoes instead of tabi, you will be dealing close to true damage against any lethality assassin. Because even with the magic resist of edge of night, they only have 6.6% damage reduction left).

With those items you have absolutely no excuse for dying as a mage to an assassin, especially within the context of a teamfight.

In fact, that's way more defense that you'll usually need. You could easily get rid of one of the HP/AP items and go for a Rabadon's or Morello's to give you more AP or CDR if you need it. In fact, how much defense you want to cut out depends on how good your positioning is and how good your team's peel is.

You can take this even further if you want to: Swap out the protobelt for a dedicated armor item. With Randuin's: Instead of having 3828 effective health, you'll have a completely unassailable 4971 effective health. You could also go with a warmongs, which gives you about the same effective health at about 4980 but makes you stronger against magic as well. Randuin's is probably better if other people on their team have %HP based damage.

Of course you don't need to go that far to be effectively survivable as a mage. I'm just showing you what is possible. That much defense would guarantee you any lethality stacker will never be able to kill you.

FireDrizzle1 votes

{quoted}

Dominiks already removed 45% of armor. What's your point?

It's amazing how some people say things as though they are fact, even though they can easily be proven to be untrue.

Draven is the third best ADC by winrate on championGG, but his top and most common builds are not lethality based. Same goes for Twitch at #4. Ziggs is even 2nd best ADC, and we know he's not benefiting from lethality. Sivir and Kog maw are practically the same winrate as Varus/Quinn/Jhin, but they don't use lethality either.

So your entire claim is proveably wrong. Some ADCs build lethality, some don't, but they are both doing well in the top winrates.

I posteditem 3035 notitem 3036 [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Almost every Draven i see is building lethality. If Twitch, sivr and kogmaw are good now, it begs the question why is no one playing them? Logically most people playing the lethality adcs played something else before they were op so comparing winrates doesnt work. They didn't have the curent pcikrates before.

I dont want to take the time to answer the rest of this post now.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

I posteditem 3035 notitem 3036

I'm fully aware of what you posted. The total potential armor penetration isn't changing next patch. So what's your point? Nothing changes with regards to how you itemize to fight it. Your post has nothing relevant to do with this thread. Especially since this thread is talking about what people can do now with the way armor pen currently is.

Almost every Draven i see is building lethality.

The stats show otherwise in platinum+.

Maybe you encounter more subpar ADC builds in silver because you're dealing with players who don't really understand how the game works but just build lethality because they heard it's overpowered. That's probably why most of the complainers are in silver elo too - they don't know the game well enough to understand the counters.

If Twitch, sivr and kogmaw are good now, it begs the question why is no one playing them?

You need to be more careful about what you state as a fact. Because it's very easy to prove you wrong by looking up the freely available champion data.

13 out of the top 15 most played ADCs, according to championgg, are not lethality builds.

Logically most people playing the lethality adcs played something else before they were op so comparing winrates doesnt work. They didn't have the curent pcikrates before.

Nothing you just said makes any sense.

I just gave you the winrates, and now I gave you the pick rates. Maybe you should do some research before posting instead of constantly making assertions that are proveably untrue and making yourself look like an idiot.

I dont want to take the time to answer the rest of this post now.

That's ok, I know you won't be able to deal with the math anyway. I'm sure others will find the numbers useful. I found it helpful to run the numbers myself, because I wanted to know what Viktor's specific numbers were.

FireDrizzle1 votes

{quoted}

I'm fully aware of what you posted. The total potential armor penetration isn't changing next patch. So what's your point? Nothing changes with regards to how you itemize to fight it. Your post has nothing relevant to do with this thread. Especially since this thread is talking about what people can do now with the way armor pen currently is.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

The stats show otherwise in platinum+.

Maybe you encounter more subpar ADC builds in silver because you're dealing with players who don't really understand how the game works but just build lethality because they heard it's overpowered. That's probably why most of the complainers are in silver elo too - they don't know the game well enough to understand the counters.

You need to be more careful about what you state as a fact. Because it's very easy to prove you wrong by looking up the freely available champion data.

13 out of the top 15 most played ADCs, according to championgg, are not lethality builds.

Nothing you just said makes any sense.

I just gave you the winrates, and now I gave you the pick rates. Maybe you should do some research for yourself instead of just talking out your ass and having to be corrected by real data.

That's ok, I know you won't be able to deal with the math anyway. I'm sure others will find the numbers useful. I found it helpful to run the numbers myself, because I wanted to know what Viktor's specific numbers were.

My point is you dont even have to build the full LDR's to counter the "counter to lethality". Last whisper is 1350 gold.

"13 of the 15 most played adcs"lol. Fucking Jhin has over a 50% playrate, they are not 15 "most played adcs".

"Nothing I said makes any sense" it does, if champs have high pickrates their winrates shouldnt be really high, I shouldnt need to spell it out to a genius like you.

"hat's ok, I know you won't be able to deal with the math anyway. I'm sure others will find the numbers useful" You are an arrogant prick. If you had anything going for you you wouldnt be trying to show off to strangers online. Its like when people are visibly extragavent, they don't really have a lot of money usually.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

My point is you dont even have to build the full LDR's to counter the "counter to lethality". Last whisper is 1350 gold.

There's three problems with your statement:

  1. It's irrelevant to a thread that is dealing with the subject of how people can counter armor pen right now.

  2. You don't understand that, based on the math I just gave you, that without the giantslayer passive you're going to do 15% less damage to the player anyway. So if you don't have both in the form of dominiks then you really have no hope of taking down someone with that much HP and armor.

  3. An extra 10% armor pen for the enemy early on is not going to make or break the survivability of the build I gave you, especially since it leans more on HP than armor. Go ahead and try to post some math that would demonstrate why it is, because I guarantee you it's not.

"13 of the 15 most played adcs"lol. Fucking Jhin has over a 50% playrate, they are not 15 "most played adcs".

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=ADC

The data is right there.

Stop making things up and do your homework.

12 of the top 15 most played ADCs are not lethality builds. (I mistyped when I said 13 out of 15).

And Jhin has a 35% play rate according to championgg.

if champs have high pickrates their winrates shouldnt be really high,

51.84% winrate for Jhin is within the realm of normal. It's certainly not really high. High would be 53-55%. Really high would be 55-60%.

Draven and Twitch have higher winrates than Jhin and they still have high enough playrates that the data is not warped by a small sample size.

So what point are you trying to make?

If you had anything going for you you wouldnt be trying to show off to strangers online.

I'm not posting math to show off to you. I don't care what you think about me. I'm just setting the record strait with undeniable math, and calling you out on your blatant unresearched and lazy ignorance masquerading as factual statements. As someone who values truth and accuracy, I get tired of seeing people run around like headless salt shakers demanding that assassins be dumpstered into obscurity just because some frustrated silver players refuse to learn how to adapt and counter lethality with the tools they've already been given.

FireDrizzle1 votes

{quoted} Someone who has not gone full defense, but partial defense and partial offense, will be hit more by it than full defense would - but that's suppose to happen. It helps give the assassin a way to stay relevant and not be completely shut down, but it doesn't allow them to completely overtake the defense of the target.

It's suppose to be more risky to build less defense and go max offense when an assassin around - because that's what assassins are designed to do - to kill the carries. That's why you have peeling tanks and supports to begin with, the protect the carries from the assassins.

Some of you people seems to want riot to do everything for you, not adjusting your itemization or teamwork to counter threats, but just nerfing whatever you don't like to deal with.

I detailed in my reply before you edited that it OVERTAKES the defense of the target. Even now not every match is full ad so you don't have to respect an enemy mage/Katarina.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

I detailed in my reply before you edited that it OVERTAKES the defense of the target.

You had no reply before the one I responded to, so I don't know what you're referring to.

Regardless, the math I've posted on this page already disproves your claim that a defensive build is "overtaken" by armor pen.

Even now not every match is full ad so you don't have to respect an enemy mage/Katarina.

There's a few logical errors with your statement:

  1. You people are whining about lethality when you are building full AP mages. If you are a full AP mage then you already have no defense against an AP assassin anyway, so your attempted point is invalidated.
  2. You'd be building a lot of HP with hybrid items, which works equally well against AP. So if you do what I've suggested, you'll come out ahead against both AP and AD assassins.
  3. You need to be clear about what your real threats are. Either the lethality AD caster is your biggest threat, or the AP MPEN caster is. But nobody is whining about AP casters, so if you really want to shut down the AD casters specifically then you go with the armor items. If you want a mix, you trade out one of the HP/AP items for an Abyssal Sceptor. If the AP is super heavy, you can go with tread boots too - but, again, nobody is whining about AP assassins. It's not like you were going to build magic resist anyway, so if lethality is really the big problem for you then it won't hurt to build the zhonyas instead of the scepter and the tabi instead of the treads.

This kind of itemization is not difficult, but some of you are making it more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to accept that there's more than one viable way to build a mage (assuming that max AP is the only way they can be played effectively, which is wrong, as the math proves).

And it doesn't surprise me that some of the ones most vocally insisting it is impossible to itemize defense are silver/bronze players who don't yet understand enough about the deeper stats of the game to realize that they do have counter options.

FireDrizzle1 votes

{quoted}

You had no reply before the one I responded to, so I don't know what you're referring to.

Regardless, the math I've posted on this page already disproves your claim that a defensive build is "overtaken" by armor pen.

There's a few logical errors with your statement:

  1. You people are whining about lethality when you are building full AP mages. If you are a full AP mage then you already have no defense against an AP assassin anyway, so your attempted point is invalidated.
  2. You'd be building a lot of HP with hybrid items, which works equally well against AP. So if you do what I've suggested, you'll come out ahead against both AP and AD assassins.
  3. You need to be clear about what your real threats are. Either the lethality AD caster is your biggest threat, or the AP MPEN caster is. But nobody is whining about AP casters, so if you really want to shut down the AD casters specifically then you go with the armor items. If you want a mix, you trade out one of the HP/AP items for an Abyssal Sceptor. If the AP is super heavy, you can go with tread boots too - but, again, nobody is whining about AP assassins. It's not like you were going to build magic resist anyway, so if lethality is really the big problem for you then it won't hurt to build the zhonyas instead of the scepter and the tabi instead of the treads.

This kind of itemization is not difficult, but some of you are making it more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to accept that there's more than one viable way to build a mage (assuming that max AP is the only way they can be played effectively, which is wrong, as the math proves).

And it doesn't surprise me that some of the ones most vocally insisting it is impossible to itemize defense are silver/bronze players who don't yet understand enough about the deeper stats of the game to realize that they do have counter options.

  1. I don't play full ap mages much actually, I like the midlaners that are bad at roaming and often my midlaner gets to farm my team, so I dont play midlane that often. Like people die after you mia ping then when you don't bother they blame you, as if they would have noticed. When you assume it makes s an ass of u and me, actually just you.
  2. You claim lethality can be competed with armour, you cant even recover base armour as a mage, only as a tank or bruiser.
  3. I often get zhonyas and tabi, more assumptions.
Risen291 votes

{quoted}

  1. I don't play full ap mages much actually,

I noticed. It's part of why you have no clue what you're talking about. AD assassins and AP mages tend to be my favorites to play, so I know what it's like from both ends.

  1. You claim lethality can be competed with armour, you cant even recover base armour as a mage, only as a tank or bruiser.

I just posted a slew of math that disproves you. Go deal with that instead of making more unresearched and untrue statements as though they are facts.

  1. I often get zhonyas and tabi, more assumptions.

You haven't been paying attention to anything have you?

Quote Risen: "You don't understand the math involved. For one, because you fail to factor in hybrid HP/AP items, which is the whole point of this thread."

Followed by all the math that backs that up.

FireDrizzle1 votes

{quoted}

I noticed. It's part of why you have no clue what you're talking about. AD assassins and AP mages tend to be my favorites to play, so I know what it's like from both ends.

I just posted a slew of math that disproves you. Go deal with that instead of making more unresearched and untrue statements as though they are facts.

You haven't been paying attention to anything have you?

Quote Risen: "You don't understand the math involved. For one, because you fail to factor in hybrid HP/AP items, which is the whole point of this thread."

Followed by all the math that backs that up.

You didnt "notice", you accused me of being a mage main lol.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

You didnt "notice", you accused me of being a mage main lol.

I noticed before you said anything that you are a tanky support or jungle player before you said anything. That's why I know you don't really understand what you're trying to talk about.

You're also free to point out where you think I accused you of being a mage main, because I didn't.

Pang Y1 votes

LOL Did you ever see a VARUS Q one shot late game? ITS BROKEN

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

LOL Did you ever see a VARUS Q one shot late game? ITS BROKEN

Have you ever seen a lethality Varus try to kill a full HP/AP/Armor stacked Swain? It makes his damage a complete joke.

Learn to adapt.

Pang Y1 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever seen a lethality Varus try to kill a full HP/AP/Armor stacked Swain? It makes his damage a complete joke.

Learn to adapt.

wut face. swain doesnt stack armor xd

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

wut face. swain doesnt stack armor xd

You missed two other acronyms in that post. I wasn't talking about building full armor on Swain. Go back to page 2 and inform yourself of what is being referenced.

Pang Y1 votes

{quoted}

You missed two other acronyms in that post. I wasn't talking about building full armor on Swain. Go back to page 2 and inform yourself of what is being referenced.

u dopid

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Talon Yes, it's completely balanced.

Zed Git Gud scrubs!

Jhin You all will be wonderful art!

Varus Revenge!

Risen292 votes

{quoted}

Talon Yes, it's completely balanced.

Zed Git Gud scrubs!

Jhin You all will be wonderful art!

Varus Revenge!

Swain Hello there. Transforms into raven

Varus Lucian Garen Cry Why can't we kill you?

Ahri Yawn, this freelo against lethality stackers is almost too easy with an HP/AP build.

Kassadin I, however, greatly enjoy the irony of easily killing another Kassadin who went max AP while I went HP/AP.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

You make a point.

However may I say that tanky champs aren't all that popular at the moment.

Everyone and thier grandmother wants to play a bursty champ stacking lethality, who not surprisingly gets screwed over by the enemy's lethality.

Risen291 votes

{quoted}

You make a point.

However may I say that tanky champs aren't all that popular at the moment.

Everyone and thier grandmother wants to play a bursty champ stacking lethality, who not surprisingly gets screwed over by the enemy's lethality.

It's a matter of choice rather than necessity. Some people wrongly think that the only way to beat a burst champion is to out-burst them. No, that's not how the items were obviously designed.

The best way to beat a max burst champion is to build a bruiserish champion with mixed offense/defense. Because the burst champion can't kill you with their burst, and they have no defense against your counter attack. It's why a wukong full of armor, cleaver, and steraks with only one damage/lifesteal item can totally wreck full armorpen/damage talon without contest.

And the way you beat a bruiserish champion is with a max attackspeed/crit champion (which, in the case of my team against the wukong, we didn't have, because our ADC went lethality).

But the way you beat a max attackspeed champion is, surprise, with a bursty champion (because the max attackspeed champion will have no defensive items).

It's the circle of life of LoL.

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