This should never happen.

Zero Shingetsu·Nov 30, 2018·5 votes·2,194 views

I had a little rant and have been questioned repeatedly about my claim that Lucian killed me, playing Leona, in under four seconds. Many have said it's physically (I assume they meant "statistically") impossible. That it could only happen if Leona were level 1 and had AFK'd all game. I finally decided to edit the damn footage and show everyone some proof of my claim to hopefully silence some debates before they boil over.

Here it is. A level 18 Lucian killing a level 16 Leona in under four seconds, with only four autos (and two abilities). Count them. I had well over 200 Armor at this point. There's no excuse for this. This shouldn't happen.

(Yes, I should have stunned him, yes, I should have used W. I was saving both for the fight that was going down at inhib; I assumed Lucian would keep chasing my Yorick when I bolted out of spawn.)

24 Comments

XL BENCH PRESSNov 30, 20185 votes

Lucian has item 3071 item 3036 .

All you have is item 3082 item 3075 .

You also have item 3009 instead of item 3047 . Swifties are a situational item, just like item 3117 on Leona. You should be going item 3111 .

You also needed item 3143 .

It's safe to say that your build is wrong/bad.

You also say you didn't use your W for whatever reason, but you have your abilities for a reason.
You are also no doubt aware that you can't fight a fed Lucian by yourself as a very behind Leona .
Your purpose as Leona is to lock down the carry for your teammates to kill, and peel for your carries.
If you build wrong and don't even use your W, and a fed Lucian catches you alone, then expect to get melted.

Therefore the clip is absolutely not surprising at all.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20182 votes

I was on my way to Randuin, I was well aware I needed it. As far as boots, I started with Tabi, but they weren't doing the trick. I was dying and getting kited, so I figured I'd trade them in for something that might help me avoid getting kited.

At this point in the game, they were coming in for a final push. This was only a few minutes before the end of the game. I'm aware I can't fight a fed Lucian, yes, and I'm aware of my purpose. At that moment, however, I was focused on helping save inhib and wasn't even looking at Lucian.

But none of this matters, because statistically, no tank should die to four ADC autos when strapped with over 200 armor. It shouldn't be possible. It's so absurd that like six people in another thread were telling me it was "literally impossible", citing all sorts of shoddy math, prompting me to make this post. But here it is. It happened.

If this can happen, if it's possible on items alone, the items aren't built properly. Riot has made a grave mistake in its game design. You can harp on all day about how I'm bad and the game is balanced just fine for players who know what they're doing, and you'll still be wrong. This is bad game design. End of discussion. The new discussion becomes "how can they fix it?"

XL BENCH PRESSNov 30, 20183 votes

But none of this matters, because statistically,

Nope. Excluding boots, you have 2 complete items: item 3075 item 3401 . The support item barely gives you anything vs Lucian, it offers less than item 1011 in this situation so could be ignored for arguments sake. So really you only have 1 relevant item in this scenario, thornmail.

Lucian has item 3071 item 3046 item 3036 item 3508 item 3031 item 3087 . 6 full items, and is a completed armor shred build.

He is also 2 levels higher than you. He is fed and you are severely behind.

You did not itemize against him and you didn't use your W. You don't have tabis, you don't have randuins, you don't have diddly squat except a thornmail.

Therefore as I said, it is absolutely no surprise at all that he tore you apart like wet toilet paper.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20183 votes

I have over 200 armor. You're looking at the items and not the numbers. The argument I am making is that an excess of 200 armor is nothing to piss at, and that no AD carry of roughly equivalent level should be able to shred through 200 armor in a mere four auto attacks. Again, you can debate this all you like, but you'll be wrong until the end of time. You're arguing from a point of nihility. You have conjecture and populism at your back, nothing more. I'm talking numbers and balance. I don't care that he killed me, it's expected in this situation. What's unforgivable is that he kills me in less than four seconds.

I don't care what items Lucian has. If they can destroy a tank of equivalent level whose items - again, I do not give a single chicken dropping about how many there are - are cutting through around 70% damage reduction, equating to roughly 7,480 effective health... They are poorly designed and are actively breaking the game. Period. No argument exists against this. You can reach into the fetid depths all you like, you will not find an argument that will defeat this statement.

What you're suggesting is that Lucian has built ~70% damage reduction into obsolescence. And this is putting aside my runes, which reduce incoming damage even further. My ~70% reduction doesn't prevent him from killing me in less than four seconds. Do you understand that? Can you comprehend that figure? Do you have enough comprehension of fundamental game design to realize that from an unaugmented auto attack I'd be cutting 100 damage down to 30, and his items make that irrelevant? Do you possess the circumspect reasoning to realize that putting items into a game that can completely negate 5,700 gold worth of defensive items built by an opponent is incredibly stupid game design, and insulting to your players besides?

Think of it this way. You've just worked your ass off to stay in an aggressive lane and earn 5,700 gold worth of attack items. You've got Rabadon's and Liandry's. Congratulations! You now have 273 bonus AP, before base AP and runes are accounted for! You take that AP to Sejuani and ult for 100 damage, because her build has almost completely negated both of your items.

Can you grasp this? Go on, I've laid out most all the math. I know you can do it. I believe in you.

(And no, I don't care what you or anyone else says, two levels is not "severely behind". Statistically, it's just not. He doesn't gain that much in base AD, and I don't gain that much in base armor, over 2 levels that it would've made a lick of difference.)

Jerry SeinfeIdNov 30, 20183 votes

2 levels at that point isn't that bad. but a 5 items difference is.

you build 5.7k worth of defensive items? ok lucian spent 17.7k on offensive items and 9.2k of it specifically counters armor. that's like bitching my 2m car is faster than your 20k car.

can you grasp the idea that your opponent also builds items? and that having 5.7k worth of armor negate 17.7k would be far more unhealthy than the other way around.

You're arguing from a point of nihility. You have conjecture and populism at your back, nothing more.

that's not how you use nihility as there's actual substance to their argument. there's no conjecture here, all info is available. You had shit items and were behind, he was more than full build and ahead. populism? ok i'm fairly sure you're on some shit at this point.

you can debate this all you like, but you'll be wrong until the end of time.

https://i.redd.it/ygotnzmexd811.png

Like i said in the reply to this whole thread, learn to fuckin play leona first.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ppygb27j,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T13:19:22.138+0000)

2 levels at that point isn't that bad. but a 5 items difference is.

you build 5.7k worth of defensive items? ok lucian spent 17.7k on offensive items and 9.2k of it specifically counters armor. that's like bitching my 2m car is faster than your 20k car.

Fact: There are $20k cars that have a higher top speed that $2 million cars. Likewise, a $2 million street-performance car is going to get less speed for RPM than a pickup truck on certain terrains.

Likewise, if a champion is built a specific way and played well, it should be able to offset a wealth of items.

can you grasp the idea that your opponent also builds items? and that having 5.7k worth of armor negate 17.7k would be far more unhealthy than the other way around.

I'm not asking for it to negate his damage. I'm asking for it to repel a meaningful portion of it. By the 70% reduction mark, you start seeing very little gain for your armor. I couldn't have gone much higher than this without wasting money. Therefore, it's ludicrous that four autos were all it took to kill me. Again I stress that it's not ludicrous he killed me. It's not even ludicrous that he killed me fast. It's ludicrous that he killed me that fast. Lifestealing AD carries duel for a greater amount of time than it took him to strip through ~70% damage reduction.

that's not how you use nihility as there's actual substance to their argument.

There is not, and that is what I was getting at. I used it perfectly.

there's no conjecture here, all info is available. You had shit items and were behind, he was more than full build and ahead. populism? ok i'm fairly sure you're on some shit at this point.

Populism. Backed by the masses. The general meta-droning of the League player base. This leads to a misunderstanding as to my ability to tank, and thereby comprehend at what point I should be withstanding meaningful damage. You see the fact I was raising was that I had 70% damage reduction. Period. Without absurd items that completely negate that, I should be turning 1,000 damage per second into 300. That's an insane amount of comparative staying power. I wasn't. Those are numbers.

In counter to my numbers argument, he keeps saying "the FACT is, you had two items..." and going on to talk about the specific items. No numbers. No math. No explanation as to why said numbers should be considered balanced play. He's talking about items because he's relying on popular opinion as to who builds what to inform his argument. Populism. He believes his argument is factually correct simply because consensus states it to be true. But the numbers are what's important. If I had one item that provided 900 armor and only that one item, I would still have 900 armor.

Like i said in the reply to this whole thread, learn to fuckin play leona first.

Funny you should say that. I've been playing Leona since season 3, and my lifetime win rate with her is 72%. 80% in season 3. 71% in season 4. 75% in season 5. 66% in season 6. 67% in season 7. Each season was more than 50 Leona games, excluding season 7 which was only 22.

Average Leona win rate? 50.49%.

Interesting. I'm ahead of the curve by a broad margin.

Jerry SeinfeIdNov 30, 20181 votes

Fact: There are $20k cars that have a higher top speed that $2 million cars. Likewise, a $2 million street-performance car is going to get less speed for RPM than a pickup truck on certain terrains.

ofcourse you'd start with drivel like this. obviously there's more to the value of a car, but you'd have to be a moron to not get the alegory and start explaining shit. The fact that a quick google search shows the fastest car is about 1.6m would already prove me wrong if it was anything other than an alegory.

By the 70% reduction mark, you start seeing very little gain for your armor. ... In counter to my numbers argument, he keeps saying "the FACT is, you had two items..." and going on to talk about the specific items. No numbers. No math. No explanation as to why said numbers should be considered balanced play

At no point did you have 70% reduction vs lucian. you like math so much but aren't willing to do any calculations. You tell people they gave you no math, neither did you. all you did was say you had 200 armor or 70% reduction. and sure with your items at lvl 16 leona has 219 armor.

Without absurd items that completely negate that

Lucian's black cleaver alone would lower it to 166. lord dom's regard allows him to ignore another 35% of it leaving you at 108. without the cleaver LDR brings you to 142 armor. and then he had last whisper which turns 10% of his crit damage into true damage. he had more items to negate yours than you had items in total. you can clearly see his damage go from around 400 to around 600-700 by the time you died.

on top of that you barely had over 2k hp, if you have no hp to back up the damage that goes through, you'll still die.

you can throw around smart words but that don't make you correct. Someone can agree with the majority and still be correct if the majority is correct.

and ma guy, you play in the bottom 17% of normals players, enjoy your 72% winrate. I don't like rank shaming, and incase of normals mmr shaming... but shit dude get off your high horse. All i can do is judge you on what i'm seeing. and what i'm seeing is you walking around like a moron not even enabling your W. Ignoring the highest priority target on their team. admittedly he has no place in your game, but that's what happens when someone plays ranked only.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ppygb27j,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T21:31:15.046+0000)

ofcourse you'd start with drivel like this. obviously there's more to the value of a car, but you'd have to be a moron to not get the alegory and start explaining shit. The fact that a quick google search shows the fastest car is about 1.6m would already prove me wrong if it was anything other than an alegory.

With due respect, you seem to have missed my allegory as well. The point I was trying to make is that, like with expensive cars vs. affordable cars, everything has a place. Everything will outperform something else under certain conditions. Good game design mirrors reality in this regard. If I am building specifically to resist physical damage and I am resisting almost no physical damage, my specialization is being completely negated. This would be like a $1.6 million sports car outperforming a $35k sport SUV in a climbing test.

The sport SUV wouldn't beat the sports car in a straight line race, just as I wouldn't defeat Lucian in a duel. But my strength isn't fighting, it's absorbing damage. If I'm not absorbing damage, Lucian is beating me at my own game.

At no point did you have 70% reduction vs lucian. you like math so much but aren't willing to do any calculations. You tell people they gave you no math, neither did you. all you did was say you had 200 armor or 70% reduction. and sure with your items at lvl 16 leona has 219 armor.

Lucian's black cleaver alone would lower it to 166. lord dom's regard allows him to ignore another 35% of it leaving you at 108. without the cleaver LDR brings you to 142 armor. and then he had last whisper which turns 10% of his crit damage into true damage. he had more items to negate yours than you had items in total. you can clearly see his damage go from around 400 to around 600-700 by the time you died.

This is the point I'm making. Thank you for giving the long explanation. The point is that I have 70% reduction when this fight starts. In less than four seconds, that reduction is stripped to 166, and 10% of Lucian's massive critical damage is ignoring it completely. This is the definition of imbalanced items. This is exactly the complaint I'm raising. The items are not well-designed.

on top of that you barely had over 2k hp, if you have no hp to back up the damage that goes through, you'll still die.

Fair enough, but time was, you'd balance protection against HP. HP was a supplement to resistances. My effective HP, according to League wiki calculations, is around 7,000. This means Lucian did in the realm of 7,000 damage to me in under four seconds. That's nearly 2,000 damage per second. Yes, I realize my effective HP wanes as my armor decreases, but again, the complaint is about the way the items are balanced. This also makes my point.

you can throw around smart words but that don't make you correct.

True. It's the being correct that makes me correct.

Someone can agree with the majority and still be correct if the majority is correct.

True. But the majority is not correct.

and ma guy, you play in the bottom 17% of normals players, enjoy your 72% winrate. I don't like rank shaming, and incase of normals mmr shaming... but shit dude get off your high horse.

Horses are beneath my grandeur. What you are seeing is a snippet of data taken from very recent games played in a broken season. Sites like GG.OP cannot and do not track lifetime stats. I have. It's my word against your presumptions, and as a stranger to you you'll never believe my word. But then as a stranger to me, your half-baked opinion will never mean anything to me either, so I suppose we'll agree to disagree.

All i can do is judge you on what i'm seeing. and what i'm seeing is you walking around like a moron not even enabling your W. Ignoring the highest priority target on their team.

You're seeing 3.8 seconds of the entire game. They didn't have a "highest priority target"; Lucian was their top laner. It was Vayne who was the ADC, currently engaging my Irelia at an already ailing inhibitor at the time of this footage. They were both doing extremely well. I chose to prioritize saving the inhibitor; notice my ultimate on it. I'd advise against using context as a weapon ("ignoring the highest priority target on their team") without... you know, context.

admittedly he has no place in your game, but that's what happens when someone plays ranked only.

I'm not sure of your meaning here, I almost never play ranked anymore. It's a worthless mode that doesn't properly reflect the "climb to the top" angle a ranked mode should deliver.

Jerry SeinfeIdDec 2, 20181 votes

I've said it before. You didn't start at 70% as he had ldr. Nothing about this has to do with balance. If riot has to balance armor around someone having 1 item vs 6 full damage items this game would be unplayable.

This Lucian is probably hitting 0 armor characters for 1k. You taking 400 damage (including statiks magic DMG) really isn't that outrageous.

Idk man, the dude that's doing the best in the game at wiping your team is probably a priority target. You know like some squishy with 6 DMG items. Who cares if he started top.

Your MMR is decided on recent games, IDC about your lifetime stats. Having a 70% winrate don't mean shit if your oponents are garbage at the game.

Lucian on the other hand only played ranked and thus has a shit normal MMR. Leading to him getting free wins vs ppl like you.

Pika FoxDec 1, 20181 votes

Ok, if you build a certain way and play well, it should be able to offset items. Thats the point of utility, afterall.

You played like garbage and built like shit. You ended 1/16, went full resists 0 HP when leona W grants a lot of upfront resists so you need HP to back it, and in this video you specifically did nothing. Nothing. Not a Q, you Rd something nowhere near you off the video for who the hell knows what reason, you probably didnt even realize you were being hit because you werent paying attention to your own champion. You were oblivious for 3-4 seconds.

Your own argument cant save you.

Hell, you ran EXHAUST CLEANSE Leona. While i dont run flash on principle and its nice seeing someone else also not running flash, you didnt use your exhaust here, the thing you specifically have to use on lucian, and in this game in particular you had no threats that youd need to cleanse out of (the only major CC was panth W).

XL BENCH PRESSNov 30, 20181 votes

You are the one who can't grasp simple concepts, my friend. You type like some pontificating, patronizing asshole, yet you aren't intelligent enough to figure out the reason why you got melted in the way you did. But it happened, so better start working those brain cells that you purport to have.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=XL BENCH PRESS,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ppygb27j,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-11-30T13:26:50.294+0000)

You are the one who can't grasp simple concepts, my friend. You type like some pontificating, patronizing asshole, yet you aren't intelligent enough to figure out the reason why you got melted in the way you did. But it happened, so better start working those brain cells that you purport to have.

First, you almost had the alliteration thing. One more word was all it took, but you had to slip into the Western Millennial trap of "no more than two descriptive words before swearing". You could've at least said something like "peepee-head".

Second, I can't believe you don't realize this, but I know exactly why I got melted. I look at footage. I watch what items my opponents are building. I'm not some spring chicken, I've been at this for many years. This isn't a "HOW DID THIS HAPPEN PLZ HELP" thread. This is a "Riot, this is unforgivably stupid, change the way your game is balanced" thread.

XL BENCH PRESSNov 30, 20181 votes

Well I'm pleased we both agree as to why you were melted by Lucian.

Everyone and his dog knows that the current meta is unfavourable towards tanks, a cursory glance on the forums makes that abundantly clear.

The main cause for complaint with regards to tanks being useless is the amount of damage/true damage being thrown around. Full build tanks like Rammus have lost the capacity to absorb any significant amount of damage output from the other team.

Personally I have stopped playing tanks, doesn't seem as effective as other options, but that's the whole idea/issue behind the existence of a meta at any given time.

I'd just take it in your stride and stop playing Leona for the time being, and pick up Pyke or such.

I sometimes I run AP Malphite as support with Sorcery, then go item 3025 into full AP. You should try it, enjoy the damage meta.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=XL BENCH PRESS,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ppygb27j,comment-id=0001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T14:13:42.485+0000)

Well I'm pleased we both agree as to why you were melted by Lucian.

Everyone and his dog knows that the current meta is unfavourable towards tanks, a cursory glance on the forums makes that abundantly clear.

The main cause for complaint with regards to tanks being useless is the amount of damage/true damage being thrown around. Full build tanks like have lost the capacity to absorb any significant amount of damage output from the other team.

Personally I have stopped playing tanks, doesn't seem as effective as other options, but that's the whole idea/issue behind the existence of a meta at any given time.

I'd just take it in your stride and stop playing Leona for the time being, and pick up or such.

I sometimes I run AP as support with Sorcery, then go into full AP. You should try it, enjoy the damage meta.

I suppose I could try dodge-tanking. Bring Anthuria to League. There are some champions that fit it... LeBlanc, Akali... Eesh, I wish they hadn't ruined Akali's image.

Jerry SeinfeIdNov 30, 20184 votes

idk man, maybe learn to play leo? You legit just ignored the damn lucian. And not just any lucian, a 18/10/11 lucian with 6 dmg items and no boots. and you had 1.7 items being 1/16/17.

the real problem here isn't that lucian killed you in 4 seconds, but that it took you more than 4 seconds to realize he was attacking you. your stun has barely any cd if you build cdr, which you really should, 3-4 seconds i believe.

######wtf are those summoner spells even.

SwiftKitten88Nov 30, 20183 votes

i seriously cant believe some people are trying attack the OP.

if this was season 4.. lucain would be disabled for being able to do that.

i swear over time with damage creep the game has dragged in more and more people who have never actually known what the game was like when it WAS balanced.. becuase the vast majoity of us left becuase of the horrible state damage creep has made league.

i am VERY dissapointed to see people trying to DEFEND that kind of damage as if its "ok"

yes damage kills tanks... OBVOIUSLY.. but it doesn't STOP THEM from being tanks.

thats the difference.. now.. with damage creep and front loaded burst.

i dont even know what still exists in the game i can compare it to how it used to be

of course in a 1v1 .. lucain is going to beat the leona... thats not in question...

what is question is.. SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE DIED THAT FAST.

hell even if it was a freaking Nami with 1.5k hp building no defense AT ALL, she shouldn't have died that fast....

let alone a lenoa building tanky.

this is why no one builds tank anymore.. its 100% worthless.

armor is a COMPLETELY worthless stat

https://youtu.be/0_QEUtWv-tM

this was season 4

do u see ANYONE getting even REMOTELY 1 shot?

this is what damage WAS

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

i seriously cant believe some people are trying attack the OP.

if this was season 4.. lucain would be disabled for being able to do that.

i swear over time with damage creep the game has dragged in more and more people who have never actually known what the game was like when it WAS balanced.. becuase the vast majoity of us left becuase of the horrible state damage creep has made league.

i am VERY dissapointed to see people trying to DEFEND that kind of damage as if its "ok"

yes damage kills tanks... OBVOIUSLY.. but it doesn't STOP THEM from being tanks.

thats the difference.. now.. with damage creep and front loaded burst.

i dont even know what still exists in the game i can compare it to how it used to be

of course in a 1v1 .. lucain is going to beat the leona... thats not in question...

what is question is.. SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE DIED THAT FAST.

hell even if it was a freaking with 1.5k hp building no defense AT ALL, she shouldn't have died that fast....

let alone a lenoa building tanky.

this is why no one builds tank anymore.. its 100% worthless.

armor is a COMPLETELY worthless stat

https://youtu.be/0_QEUtWv-tM

this was season 4

do u see ANYONE getting even REMOTELY 1 shot?

this is what damage WAS

Thank you, this voices my thoughts quite well. I'm glad someone else can see it. :) I miss the days when tanking was viable, but this thread has made me think that I might try to invent dodge-tanking. Get a character with mobility, but a little health and a little resistance on them, and use my agility to confuse and misdirect the enemy while my team goes to town on them. It's worth a shot.

If Riot isn't gonna fix, I will adapt!

Inkling CommandoNov 30, 20181 votes

he was running item 3031 so 10% of that damage was true damage thus ignoring your armor. and by the look of high numbers, i'd say the true damage split off first then what physical damage was left was reduced.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Goblin Ranger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ppygb27j,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-30T08:45:03.438+0000)

he was running so 10% of that damage was true damage thus ignoring your armor. and by the look of high numbers, i'd say the true damage split off first then what physical damage was left was reduced.

Most likely, but this still just feels wrong. It should take in the realm of 6-7 seconds for a single ADC to kill a tank, ground level. Maybe more. The whole point of a tank is soaking up damage intended for your team. If I was dying this quickly, imagine how my squishy teammates were faring. A tank can't protect their team if this kind of damage is attainable.

TheSingularityNov 30, 20181 votes

While I agree damage is a tad high, marksman are meant to out perform tanks eventually. That's their secondary job.

You were feeding and behind, he was fed af and full build. Shredding your little armor and then dealing true damage. So it's really any wonder he killed you that quickly because you really weren't that tanky. Also working against you were your runes: shield bash is useless, you have no shield, bone plating should've been taken over second wind and overgrowth over revit (you have no heal). Overall you may as well have gone electocute.

Don't just stack armor, as without sufficient health the armor is useless and vice versa. If you're worried about your beef skip the sup item final upgrade, grab knight vow or locket, bramble, tabi, randuins, then which ever sup item u didn't buy earlier.

Full BrainNov 30, 20181 votes

You are a support cc bot not a tank. Real tanks are solo laners and junglers and have items that give them things like effective health and full item passives/actives that would have caused those attacks to do like a third of their health.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Full Brain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ppygb27j,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-30T12:02:10.957+0000)

You are a support cc bot not a tank. Real tanks are solo laners and junglers and have items that give them things like effective health and full item passives/actives that would have caused those attacks to do like a third of their health.

Factually false. Leona is one of my top 3 tank performers all-time. So if real tanks are solo laners, let's see... Braum isn't a real tank. Shen isn't a tank. Nautilus isn't a tank either. Kench? Not a tank. Neither is Sejuani. I mean are you really classifying "tank" and "not tank" by lane? What happens if I play Vayne top? Does she suddenly stop being a bursty AD? What happens if I play Illaoi support? She's not a tank anymore?

On the contrary, generally the only "real" tanks are supports. Top laners usually feel the need to build damage, and junglers aren't getting anywhere on ganks if they can't dish it out. Supports, on the other hand, are free to build pure tank items as they're not looking for kills.

Also, causing four attacks to do a third of my health still kills me. Hate to tell you, but four thirds is greater than a whole health bar.

Full BrainNov 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ppygb27j,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-11-30T12:08:07.142+0000)

Factually false. Leona is one of my top 3 tank performers all-time. So if real tanks are solo laners, let's see... Braum isn't a real tank. Shen isn't a tank. Nautilus isn't a tank either. Kench? Not a tank. Neither is Sejuani. I mean are you really classifying "tank" and "not tank" by lane? What happens if I play Vayne top? Does she suddenly stop being a bursty AD? What happens if I play Illaoi support? She's not a tank anymore?

On the contrary, generally the only "real" tanks are supports. Top laners usually feel the need to build damage, and junglers aren't getting anywhere on ganks if they can't dish it out. Supports, on the other hand, are free to build pure tank items as they're not looking for kills.

You don't understand what facts are. There is no point in arguing with a delusional person who thinks the imaginary world they craft inside of their skull to support a personal desire is a factual representation of reality.

Zero ShingetsuNov 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Full Brain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ppygb27j,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-11-30T12:16:17.787+0000)

You don't understand what facts are. There is no point in arguing with a delusional person who thinks the imaginary world they craft inside of their skull to support a personal desire is a factual representation of reality.

I concur, yet I'm throwing you a bone anyway. Aren't I the benevolent one?

A fact is something that has been observed. I am a career tank. I've played tank in every MMO since Ragnarok Online. I main tanky classes in every singleplayer game that has one. In World of Warships, I strapped Nagato with as much AA as I could provide and used her to shield my allies as a slow-moving brawler. Little surprise that one of the first things I did when I started playing League was figure out how to be an effective tank.

I'm the first into battle and the last out. My teammates die roughly a third of the time I do in the vast majority of my games. When I die substantially more than my teammates, we tend to win the game. I practically never miss a body-block, and I'm superb at manipulating my opponents into pouring their focus onto me. I know how to tank. I know I'm playing like a tank.

And factually speaking, playing in this manner, I have my second best win rate with Leona among all other champions I play in this manner. That is a fact. She's second only to Rammus, followed after a substantial drop by Sejuani. Leona is a tank. She was a tank when I started playing and she's changed very little since. It's a fact not because I crafted an imaginary world like some mercurial whelp. It's a fact because I have observed it in action. Her kit alone makes it clear enough. If you look at that W and E and you don't see a tank, I believe you may be the one living in an inverse reality.