Hey Jungler! Episode 3: Self fulliling prophecy of the Mute button.

Occams Raiser·May 8, 2015·3 votes·1,040 views

I have seen many junglers talk about the toxicity of playing their role. They say that people shit on them so they mute them. But invariably I hear that Junglers don't like being told what to do and they have several things to think about. This is one reason I ask so many questions of junglers in my post. Why I ask one of them about their thought process in forums they are more than happy to tell me their strats and how they evaluate what lane to gank. If I as that same question in game... crickets. Or worse. "I'll gank who and when I want to so stop asking." DAMN BRO.

So here comes the mute button. If they get an anklin' that you are about to raise an eyebrow to their course of action, "muted". What's that, Lassie? We are losing in a major way and our jungler isn't communicating? We are fed up with jungler and jungler are fed up with laners. Why is that gromp so important that you can't leave it to come kill two laners at 20% HP. Yeah I know, you'll be there when you get done.

If I can't talk to you, what are we supposed to do? We have gotten to the "walking on eggshells" level of communication. I am not telling you how to jungle. I am only asking you to come out of it every so often.

As always, high MMR players responding must accept the majority of players aren't where you are so this is a general community discussion. Assume I know how to set my lane for ganks.

Previous: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/7mij2P78-hey-jungler-episode-1-why-you-no-gank-for-me http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JFPIPc13-hey-jungler-episode-2-ill-help-if-you-ping-no-ping-huh-oh-we-got-a-badass-over-here

37 Comments

Icestar1186May 8, 20152 votes

There is a large difference between "tell" and "ask". We hate being told to do something. We're OK with being asked to do something.

"WTF NOOB DRAGON NOW" (exaggeration) is a lot more offensive than pinging dragon and saying "We can take dragon if you help," or even just saying "drag?".

"Are you EVER going to gank mid?" is self-entitled, but "Could you gank mid when I get back to lane? It would really help" is respectful.

If you ASK, you are helping them make an informed decision. If you TELL, you are trying to make the decision for them, and I am much less likely to gank for an ungrateful self-entitled ADC than one who asks for help. If you are TELLING your jungler to help, especially in a way that comes across as entitled and arrogant, I can understand it if they are reluctant to help.

Honestly, though, if they mute you for ASKING for a gank, they suck at jungling. I personally never mute someone who isn't outright toxic. Communication wins games.

C9 TekniqzMay 8, 20151 votes

Amen man completely agree with this. It's really frustrating when you have 3 lanes complaining at you, you are getting counter jungled or trying to counter jungle, trying to focus on keeping the enemy off dragon and baron, trying to give vision. It's like give me a break. I don't mind helping you as its my job as the jungler.

But you complaining all game because you either lost your lane or got ganked isn't helping. Half the time people don't even state what summoners are down or where wards are and they expect you to just go blind mode and barrel into their lane like you are hulk hogan. Or you get that guy who doesn't get the kill and you just see "Wow...." in chat and continued complaining from them about how they are behind.....

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

This is an opportunity for you to ask for help from your laners and bring in a new level of play. I would start out by asking for help in jungle when you engage from the closest laner. It will get you a feel for the team cooperation level and let them know that you will be wanting to gang fight even in the jungle and help is always welcome. I have never had a jungler say anything at the start of the game as to his prowess. In all my games never once.

Why not say "let me know about wards and when they pop summoner spells"? Never see people ask for info. If the team doesn't know to do it it goes unspoken. I know to do it but I don't say it all the time cause sometimes I think I am talking to myself.

OnegarionMay 8, 20151 votes

While I completely agree with you on this, there is also the other side of this where the jungler just doesn't listen. Ofc this is assuming that the conditions of you asking apply and you aren't telling.

I'm a support main and while I'm not the best jungler I know how bot lane is going. Typically I win bot lane with my ADC just because of my play style. Doesn't mean we flat out shut them down, but I can work on controlling the enemy unless I'm completely countered where I play really passive.

To the point tho, I hate having to call for dragons or ask for help. When I say ask for help I'm talking about when you are clearly pushed up to tower and its an easy gank. Maybe I ping once or twice (not spam cause thats pretty much TELLING) but don't say much. It would be nice to see my jungler come when I'm trying to set them up.

Since I'm a bad jungler I usually look for a few things things when I gank:

Where is the enemy in the lane? Are they under their tower, our tower, crossed to our side of river, etc.
How much CC do I have and how much does the lane have/any global ults? Together they make up how likely I am to gank for you. If we have heavy CC I'm more likely to do a lane gank or risk ganking when they are near their tower because can hold them down. If we have low CC I'm probably going to wait for them to push up more. So if you keep pushing I can't do much for you.
If we don't have a lot of CC do we have high damage? If we can't lock them down to hurt them I'm going to look how much damage we can do. If we can burst, again I'm more likely to come when they are pushed to their tower. If we don't have a lot of damage I can't come when they are pushed to their tower. If we have sustained damage they need to be pushed at least to the middle before I even think of coming. I'm not going to get anything coming to gank you if there is low kill pressure.
Will their jungler gank you? This is one I have problems with actually following up on being a bad jungler, but if it seems like the enemy is going to be there AND WE HAVE A CHANCE TO FIGHT THEM I will come up and try to lane gank for you. I don't want you to fall flat and die so if I suspect the enemy jungler is going to come for you I will stick by you and try to thwart them.

The whole point is I expect similar decisions by my jungler. I don't expect them to have the exact same thought processes, but as a support player I pick heavy CC champs ( Thresh / Leona / Nami ) so if they are pushed to our tower and you have any sort of CC we will at least get summoners to make your next gank easier. I hate when junglers ignore lanes that are obvious gank lanes. While some lanes aren't as easy I want to see you try. Yea Udyr might not have much chance against an Ezreal / Lulu without the bot lanes help, but don't leave us to bleed or ruin our set up because its not likely.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

I like your thinking. It all makes sense to me. A lot of junglers seem to fly by the seat of their pants.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

"Are you EVER going to gank mid?" is self-entitled, but "Could you gank mid when I get back to lane? It would really help" is respectful.

This is the eggshells I am talking about. Unless he literally capitalizes the ever, this is dirt on your shoulder territory. Brush it off. I would start to get suspicious if I was holding my own mid and a jungler never came to tip the balance. Especially if their jungler had roamed through a couple of times. I usually say "I need a mid gank" I tell people what I need from them. If I see you gank other lanes 2 more times in silence, the next thing that comes out will be accusing you of possible trolling, unless we are winning. Then it might be a question of if you are strong enough to help 2 snowball or 3.

BluePolarizerMay 8, 20151 votes

If the jungler ganks other lanes after you ask for a gank, maybe its because the jungler decides your lane is too far gone, the risk is too high or the payoff is too low. If you are feeding the enemy Zed, for instance, the correct response might actually not be to gank for you; it might be to get the top lane Malphite ahead a little, then camp bot.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

Assume that everything is equal. "Feeding" is a lazy term that inherently washes all other team members hands of any responsibility. Often, someone is trolling if they feed in rapid succession. I once lost lane to fizz when I was trying out Irelia. No one called me a noob cause I had already told them from the start that I was working on her. I said "working o her" cause saying "first time" or "just bought" is something a troll would say. It sounds close but it is different enough to evoke the response I wanted from them. I think I was down 5 kills. After the second kill he was diving under tower taking me from full health.

I started TP'ing to other lanes killing carries to get back in. In the end I broke even and we won. He never ganked for me even though I did ask for some assistance in the beginning. By the time he tried to gank I was too low to help. Actually he did gank once. I died and he got shutdown gold. He made the decision to not help. I was feeding in the since that Fizz felt no fear in diving me cause he hadn't seen the jungler once. He was over extended the entire game. Why did mid and jungle not fuck Fizz up after the second time I died? I know what you are thinking and that is the easy answer. But if he was scared to go all in I would not have died so many times. "Feeding" comes from leaving someone for dead.

Balderdash1000May 8, 20152 votes

Are you seriously complaining that the jungler doesn't have a long involved conversation with you while he's trying to play the game? Seriously, when I'm in any lane, I tend to keep chat to a minimum, so I don't get distracted. When I'm jungling taking the time to chat almost always slows me down at minimum. The only time I can really type is when I'm leaving base. The rest of the time, I'm using abilities to farm (can't do that when you're typing), I'm trying to set up ganks, trying to take objectives, or I'm counterjungling. Honestly, none of those are a good time to have a little heart to heart. Even when I'm taking the time to write a couple of short sentences between top and bottom camps, I'm well aware that I'm running the risk of getting counterjungled myself, and you might wonder why half way through the sentenQQQWEERRRRRRRQQ Dammit! Just died again.

Honestly, if you have questions, ask them here, or ask them after the game. Don't ask for a long involved explanation when people are actually trying to do stuff! Keep things as short and businesslike as you can is my advice. "Can I get the next blue?" "Could you watch my tower real fast while I back?" "The opponents pushing hard, if you come soon I think we can smash him." All these are good statements, because they don't require more then an "ok" or a ping to answer.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

Are you seriously complaining that the jungler doesn't have a long involved conversation with you while he's trying to play the game?

If what you ask of someone sounds absurd you probably misunderstood them. Don't start by assuming what someone is saying is ridiculous and you won't hear so many ridiculous things.

Don't ask for a long involved explanation when people are actually trying to do stuff!

Before minions spawn, when you are backing, or returning to jungle are all good times to say what you will do. Anything else can probably be pinged for.

"going bot" coming from blue "drag" coming from top. "their blue" ping "mid gank soon" None of those are long.

Balderdash1000May 8, 20151 votes

Considering that what you said was,

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PlbcngTQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-08T02:41:21.194+0000)

Why I ask one of them about their thought process in forums they are more than happy to tell me their strats and how they evaluate what lane to gank. If I as that same question in game... crickets. .

Followed by you you apparently getting muted, naturally I have to wonder just how much talking you're trying to get them to do. Obviously, if you're constantly getting muted there's a reason for it. I don't know whether you're trying to get a heart to heart, or just constantly harping on something. Something you're doing is obviously getting on their nerves.

Before minions spawn is definitely the best time to talk, and I seriously doubt you're getting muted then. Sometimes though, you have to understand that the jungler doesn't know what he's going to do yet and needs to see how things develop. Returning to jungle is enough time to have a short conversation. Don't expect to get in depth. As for backing, half the time you're already trying to figure out what you're trying to buy, and don't even see a message. Typing then is a waste of time, but you can respond quickly while you're leaving.

Like I said before, pings are good. I use them myself all the time. If your jungler isn't pinging, then that's his issue, but going back to the harping bit, ask him to ping once then drop it.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

I don't know if I have ever been muted. There is always silence but that comes regardless of who is asking. Some junglers talk and some don't. Some people are little shits and some aren't. If you say "bot flash down" and that is met with "shut up noob", you know you lost this game.

They say in fighting that everyone has a plan until they get hit. Just because things are going to get loose doesn't mean you shouldn't start freeballing from the get go. if you are going to invade you need to say so at select so I know what ability to pick for the invade. Same goes for all other scenarios. Tell me if you are new to jungle or hard core counter jungler. Do you farm mostly so don't expect a gank or do you roam so I should set accordingly. I know this rarely happens but its just like saying the majority of the time, 47% of the community play just like you expect them to... like bronze and silvers.

Nameless VoiceMay 8, 20151 votes

This. I play Eve. I can't type because I'm constantly spamming Q.

I do type a fair bit sometimes, but a lot of the time I just stick with pings. You ask for a gank and I think it's a good idea? On my way ping. I want to give a blue buff? Assist me ping on blue. Dragon? Ping. Coming to a lane? Ping. I see the enemy jungler near your lane? Danger ping (and maybe type their name.)

The jungler and support tend to be the players who can afford to type the most (less focus on constant last-hitting), but are still quite busy.

C9 TekniqzMay 8, 20151 votes

The reason a majority of Junglers get mad when you "tell" them what to do. Is not because you are, but because you do it in a negative way. Like omg I've been ganked 5 times and you never do anything.... Meanwhile Both your other lanes are 0-12-2 as well and you are too busy only noticing your own score to realize hes trying his best.

As for farming two feet away from you while theirs an easy gank possible. That's just bad playing which you will see from people because its a game and not everyone can be the best or guess what the their would be no best and their would be no lcs or challenger tier because everyone would be equally good.

It's honestly one of the highest pressure positions in the game because you are looked at by 4 people to help them along with getting yourself ahead, warding the map and controlling objectives. Your brain has to focus on 15 things at once while your laner is crying because he got ganked and it isn't fair.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

Meanwhile Both your other lanes are 0-12-2 as well and you are too busy only noticing your own score to realize hes trying his best.

This more when the damage has been done already.

I also believe jungle is the hardest position, which is why I'm surprised to see so many junglers talk about their responsibilities like they don't have to do anything. "All I have to do is win jungle". What?

DreadlocksMay 8, 20151 votes

Ive left ppl bot lane with 20% hp before as a jungler.. why? because they could either 1: could cc and kill me any ways 2: you didnt tell me if the river was warded or not, so they would likely see me coming and run anyways...or they might still have summoners i'm unaware of 3: I might not know where their jungler is so going in for a 1v2 vs 20%hp targets with the risk of their jungler popping out and killing me too is not one i like to take.

OnegarionMay 8, 20151 votes

I have a little criticism on your points:

This is ok if you are 1v1 or 1v2, but if your bot lane is doing a lot of work and you are rather CC heavy or have good hard CC you need to play it right. You can try, but be very cautious/ready to run if it doesn't work completely.
having a sweeper/pink ward is always good to have and while maybe they didn't tell you, but most lanes react instantly at lower elos so you can tell and get your own information so you know where you can/can't go. Also getting summs is a very good thing. If you gank and you make the enemy burn their summs that is a HUGE benefit. It means that you had a good gank and forced them to use their longest CD and lets you come back where they can't get the easy getaway.
This is were wards come in. Placing wards near camps you can tell where the jungler isn't. Also if you are a consistent jungler/main jungler you should really start to familiarize yourself with jungle paths or keeping track of what the junglers HP is at before they disappear is great. This is more on you and the team to get good vision down to see these things.

DreadlocksMay 8, 20151 votes

I wouldn't really say that's criticism more of just.. hey here's more shit to think about. Thus I will not disagree with any of what you said.

OnegarionMay 8, 20151 votes

yea it does sound more like food for thought.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

Only thin I never think about is when a summoner spell gets used, the jungler never comes back before the cooldown is up. Making the fact that you took their flash kind of meaningless.

DreadlocksMay 8, 20151 votes

And thats wut separates the good junglers from the bad.

Angry MonsterMay 8, 20151 votes

I think this falls back to thread number 1. Why are people trying to tell the jungler what to do. Everyone (well not really but majority) wants help with there lane, but their is only so much a roaming role can do. When people are saying that NEED a gank it practically telling me something i already know. Hell i already assumed in champ select everyone needed a gank. You telling me and me not seeing an opportunity is really grating.

So in http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1815988688/38521493?tab=overview this game i fed the mid zed BADLY. I was out played left and right. Instead of saying i need X or i want X, all i said was that i fucked up and everyone be aware. Zed was going to be a problem and he was. The jungler did what he need to do with this information this game, he roamed bot lane and protected the ADC.

The jungler did not need to be told what to do. He took the important info, zed was strong and i was weak and made choices that lead to a win. Zed apparently started to flip out that he was not getting help against the ADC and made his team /ff at 20 minutes.

Like a few others have stated its not about what you are saying its is how you are saying. If the jungler decided that i was worth focusing energy on that would of been his call. I was not worth the time or effort so he made the call that he thought was best and sacrificed me. Notice how in this story i did not say jungler do X or /ff no ganks.

Much of what is being said in game does not need to be said. I can ping to show danger, or where i want to go or to fall back to a player that has muted me. I am not how much actual typing you are doing in your games. I bearly say 3 sentences all game. My chat box is filled with D times, and wp mostly.

You say how to communicate with people when they are muting others. Well why are you typing stuff that is not needed that is forcing people to mute you?

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

When people are saying that NEED a gank it practically telling me something i already know. Hell i already assumed in champ select everyone needed a gank. You telling me and me not seeing an opportunity is really grating.

I think they are telling you they need immediate attention, not that need attention.

The jungler did what he need to do with this information this game, he roamed bot lane and protected the ADC.

You communicated and responded in kind. Are you saying there was no point in saying anything?

Everything I have put in my post isn't about me. I read others peoples posts and add to it. In my experience, I have merely had junglers that stay silent and win or lose based on their own abilities. When they lose they get vocal at the end of the game and claim zero responsibility. They are playing the hardest role yet defend there game play by saying they have the least responsibility. I have seen threads that say "never expect a gank" That is nonsensical and they should know that before they write it but it sounds good in their head. If you can't have logical expectations on action\reaction scenarios than everything is arbitrary. Options being fluid is far from randomness.

Well why are you typing stuff that is not needed that is forcing people to mute you?

This is relative to the reader.

Angry MonsterMay 8, 20151 votes

I think they are telling you they need immediate attention, not that need attention.

People need to learn that immediate does not happen nor work.

I have a habit of saying you instead of the generalization. Its not an attack but my weak writing style.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

I will take it in mind in the future.

Balderdash1000May 8, 20151 votes

It doesn't matter what role someone takes, you're always going to run into people claiming that other peoples fault that you lost. That's just human nature. Also, don't expect ganks ever. If we see an opportunity we'll take it. If we don't, for whatever reason, we won't. Now our reasoning might be wrong one way or another, but we're still going to decide on where we gank for ourselves.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

Also, don't expect ganks ever

I never understand this. Is your decision making arbitrary when it comes to jungling? Is it so complex and fluid that you don't know what you are doing till right before you do it? Should I have no expectation for you to behave in a competent and logical fashion? if three lanes never expect a gank in a 20 minute game what the hell is the jungler doing? Someone should expect a gank thus we should all expect a gank unless something logically makes it disadvantageous for you to do so. I expect you to tip the balance of power in our favor. If not through my lane than through someone else in a logical fashion. If I don't want you to gank my lane will you still gank it? And yes I have seen players asks not to be ganked. And they won their lane.

Balderdash1000May 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Occams Raiser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PlbcngTQ,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2015-05-08T08:12:07.377+0000)

Is it so complex and fluid that you don't know what you are doing till right before you do it?

That one. Let me explain something to you. When you're jungling it's all about timing and time spent. You're trying to do several things at once, and whatever you're not doing at that moment is something you're falling behind in. For instance, I hardly ever gank all three lanes. If I'm ganking top and mid, I simply don't have time to go bot, or vice versa. In most games I'm either ganking top or bottom. You set up a route, and unfortunately, if top is part of your route, bottom becomes an awkward place to gank. Mid, on the other hand, is always easy to make part of your path.

The main thing that determines how my path sets up though is how easy I think it would be to gank any particular lane. When you're close to their lane in your jungle path you look to see if a lane looks gankable. It doesn't matter what the lane looks like when you're anywhere else, because whatever the situation is when you look from further away, it's probably not going to exist when you get there. The most annoying thing in the world is when a laner yells about how his opponent's pushing when you're on the opposite side of the map, and then complains that you never gank when you get over there and see the enemy farming safely under their tower. What laners don't seem to understand is that it takes time to travel across the map, and doesn't matter how gankable someone is when we're not nearby if they're in a safe spot when we get there.

You never know before a game starts how much you're going to gank. There are some games where my teammates are constantly pushing or constantly dieing (or both) and all you can do is farm up for the late game without ganking at all. There's other games where you're walking death, with like 15 kills before the first tower falls, and all three lanes in terror of you. It's all a matter of if the opportunities are there when you're in a position to catch them.

So, yes. It is complex. It is fluid. If we see a chance we'll take it. If we don't see a chance we'll gank another lane, farm, counter jungle, do dragon, or one of the other things we would otherwise be neglecting while trying to make a gank happen that just isn't there.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

But everything that you said does make logical sense. i can tell by where you are on the map, how much health all involved parties have, cooldowns and ults, cc and lane position whether I can expect some attention. But if a jungler was is top and I'm top I expect for their to be a walk through. Maybe not an all in but something. maybe we can get a flash or you sweep the bushes.

Balderdash1000May 8, 20151 votes

Like I said, things are fluid. Maybe they just ganked bot and are trying to clear a bit as they work their way down to gank again. Maybe they tried to gank your lane before and have written it off as a bad investment. Maybe they just didn't notice, or you did something to piss them off. Maybe the enemy team is doing dragon and they need to rush down to stop them, or they see a chance to counter jungle, or are trying to head off an invade of their turf.

There are a lot of reasons, some good and some bad, that they might not try a gank. You're in charge of your lane, while the jungler is looking at the whole map. Sometimes they miss something. Sometimes they make a bad judgement call. Sometimes something else really is more important. It all depends on the situation, and there's a lot more variables that the jungler is looking at then just your lane.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

Sometimes they miss something. That is why they need constant info and updates. Some of that info will come in the form of "they are low and I have mana come right away." You are already top with mana and health for a gank. You can either come or say don't tell me what to do. Or do what so many do and stay silent and continue to jungle.

BluePolarizerMay 8, 20151 votes

Jungle mains get mad when other roles shotcall because to put it bluntly, they just don't have the game knowledge to know when to back off because an objective that looks "free" is actually untakable. Also, telling the jungler to gank is OK. Demanding a gank is not. "omg camp mid scrub" is not what I want to hear because instead of focusing on looking objectively at what lanes are best to snowball, I have to now consider the possibility that you are a rager and to prevent you from AFKing or intent feeding, I might have to make suboptimal plays just to sooth your ego.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

Do you operate under the belief that people wait until they have superior game knowledge to those in their division before becoming a jungler? By default the jungler has better understanding than laners? What about laners that also jungle? Where are all the first time junglers?

The variance from politely asking a jungler for something with a curtsy always seems to be an insult as though there is nothing between the two. I have asked a jungler why he would not gank my lane when I was up a kill. He said cause your a yordle. Yes he was an asshole but that's besides the point. I often get silence and indifference. If someone has a thin skin, perhaps they shouldn't play the most demanding role in the game. Its like wanting to be QB then telling everyone if you ask anything of me in a manner or tone I find displeasing I won't talk to you for the rest of the game.

BluePolarizerMay 8, 20151 votes

The jungler should have superior game knowledge of the overall game, but in shot calling, usually the jungler also knows their own limitations - whether they can win smite wars, where the enemy jungler is likely to be, how fast an objective can be taken, etc. Not following jungler calls usually leads to defeat. I've had games lost on calls of inhib turret vs. baron where my team misjudged the value of an objective (not just overall but where we are in the game; do we need pressure, or do we need fast gold) and lost for it.

mvargusMay 8, 20151 votes

I play a lot of jungle and I have some thoughts on this.

first, I don't use the mute button, its a waste to not at least be able to hear your teammates. So I do get to see all the complaints about the jungler not ganking or not listening or.....

BUT

In my experience the problem is not always the jungler. Someone posting on this thread started with the point about a jungler farming when there was a "easy gank" just a short distance away. That right there warned me that people don't always understand the situation.

To begin with junglers do need gold, and farming is one way they get it, but unlike laning where there is always another wave coming, jungle camps spawn on a timer. To maximize your gold you have to take down camps as quickly as you can. So stopping to clear a camp gets the current gold and starts the respawn cycle.

Also sometimes smiting and taking a camp is important. I play a lot of tank junglers. If I can smite Gromp and kill him just before I head to a lane, i'll arrive with the poison armor buff still active. Early in the game that helps do more damage and might make the gank work.

There is a lot of thinking ahead a jungler needs to do and it changes constantly based on where the lanes are and how each lane is playing out. If a lane is getting pushed to their tower its often a good candidate, but not if they are underfarmed too much and can't help in the gank. If a lane keeps pushing, but then complaining about "no ganks." when they don't ward I usually start looking to help other lanes.

In general while I might politely ask for help from a jungler I try to never order a jungler to come gank. They usually have a better idea of where the other lanes are and where we can get the most out of their appearance. If they can push a lane to snowball if I play safe then I'll go with that.

Heck that almost happened last night. I got stuck playing mid (I'm horrible midlane no matter what champion I take.) I ended up playing Ahri into Akali. The lane ended up being mostly a stalemate despite how badly I play the lane and the champ. The only big difference was the enemy jungler visited several times while I think I saw my jungler once before the laning phase ended. We ended up losing the game later due to a number of factors, but I can't blame the jungler for leaving me on an island. I had the ability to play safe and try to keep the lane even while he tried to push other lanes. Yes, the Akali should have died 3-4 times, but I blame my poor play.

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

a jungler farming when there was a "easy gank" just a short distance away. That right there warned me that people don't always understand the situation.

Probably me who said it. I look at it like this. What is more valuable, possible support or kill gold x2, or your jungle camp (excluding blue or red). Is it not also worth the advantage to the lane to have that enemy falling behind in cs? I give anyone leeway in their jungle regime until level 6 then I start to look for my jungler to get hype. It is my oversight to certain camps helping with the gank, but what is it worth to forgo the gank in order to build up prep for the gank. It is like not seeing the forest for the trees.

On setting up for a gank, I have seen many a cop out where a jungler makes mention of laners pushing too hard. But I have never actually heard a jungler IN GAME say "play passive so we can shut bot down." or "setting up tent on KAT till she afk's. conserve mana." I do know how hard it is to type but you can say a lot while backing and returning.

I'm not trying to be contradictory since I started the thread. I am listening to all the junglers. But I am hoping to give at least one of you something to take with you as well. In thread we all have sober heads and have the time to convey complex ideas.

Scenario: How would you take the statement "I got these guys served on a platter, come before they back". Enemy bot is a poke lane, has less than half HP on each, I have full health as a tanky Naut supp, and I have my ult ready. You have at least 50% health with red or blue active. You have cc but maybe no ult ready. Our adc **does not **seem to have their head up their ass. DRAG is up. You are on my side of the map.

Am I telling you, asking you, or merely conveying important info with urgency?
Is this a scenario you would jump on?
Is it worth leaving a camp early? (excluding red or blue)
What would scare you from this opp, and what info is left out besides where the other jungler is?
Would I be wrong in questioning you if you ran silent?

Occams RaiserMay 8, 20151 votes

Is it a good idea for me to ask these type of questions? I don't believe everything that is said here is common knowledge. I have been enlightened on a few things since I don't jungle myself. I get a lot comments but not too many up votes. Luckily I don't get many down votes either. I ask these question of the jungler cause it is the only role I feel that isn't straight forward. Are there things I'm overlooking in other roles that I should be asking about?