A few suggestions for Graves since he's bashing with Lucian for the short-range burst slot

darkdill··11 votes·2,011 views

Graves might be in a decent spot now, but I am still frustrated to no end by how frequently I go OOM on him. Also, when you compare him to Lucian, you see a quick problem: mana efficiency. Lucian is hugely mana efficient because he regenerates well, and his dash has no cost. Graves has high costs, only moderate mana regen, and his only escape costs a chunk of his limited mana pool.

Additionally, I have always been irked by how his passive will NEVER reach full stacks in a team fight, because any team fight that lasts 10 seconds is, according to Riot, bad gameplay. Why doesn't it take 5 seconds to ramp up instead?

I'm guessing these drawbacks are all because of Smokescreen, Graves' burst damage, and his long-fight durability, but those things don't count as well as they used to. Right now, Graves is competing with Lucian on the short-range burst marksman slot, but is losing to Lucian. Maybe he should have more differences to define himself better.

Here are some ideas that could work together.

  1. Lower Graves' attack range to 500 from 525. This will allow Graves to be buffed significantly due to his reduced safety.
  2. Remove the mana cost of Quickdraw.
  3. Speed up the firing animation (and timing) of Buckshot. (Kinda clunky right now.)
  4. Change True Grit to give 1/2/3/4/5/6 AR/MR each second, maxing out at 5 stacks instead of 10. You get the same total AR/MR, but in half the time.
  5. Possible number buffs/changes to accompany the above changes.

There, Graves gets better identity compared to Lucian.

18 Comments

12tales10 votes

I would prefer to see Graves' strengths that aren't shared by Lucian accentuated. For instance, his vision denial, steroid, soft CC and more burst oriented damage. To an extent, I don't mind him being mana hungry, because Graves is a champion that's intended to lay down tons of damage once or twice, rather than spam his abilities from long range in extended skirmishes. Making his E manaless, while obviously a buff, kinda makes him feel even more like a Lucian clone.

I like the idea of buffing his passive. I'd also be happy to see his W buffed, either in radius or in slow intensity.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

For Smokescreen:

How about it acting like a brush, too, in blocking LoS through it, even if you're standing outside? Or does it already do that?

darkdill1 votes

It doesn't prevent enemies from seeing into the smokescreen; just reduces vision of enemies that are in it.

Thryale2 votes

I love that idea! Denying vision of enemies inside and acting like an akali shroud for allies would amazing... and INSANELY broken. I can't you how hard graves would have to be gutted just to get that kind of buff.

Old Man Teeto3 votes

His passive going twice as fast seems like a valid buff.

Currently, it's very weak outside of laning phase since he's unlikely to be in combat constantly to have it up when a team fight occurs.

Sire Hippington3 votes

I definitly agree on your suggested changes, but I'd go a bit further and rework him a bit(actually only his E) It always buggs me that a badas guy with a shotgun got a 70% AS-buff, i mean it's a shotgun and not a heavy machin gun.

So i what i would like for graves is a increased base as, so u don'T have to get as from other sources that badly(let's be honest, graves with no as from runes/masterys whatever got a rather unresponsive AA and a 0.625 AS always sucks for lasthitting) A lower cd and a bit higher ratio on his Q, as it should be his main damage-source, and the E should grant some %bonusarmorpen for a few sec instead off the AS to complement his bursty style. The E couldown should also get reduced if he hits enemy with buckshot, as he now gets less AS and lower AA range. Together with removed manacosts from E, less AA range And a faster ramping passive it should realy indentify him as a shotgun-wielding badass who blows up people.

This also would set him appart from Lucian as Graves would be a purely burst-centered ad-caster with good tankiness and aoe compared to Lucian who profits from normal adc-builts, has a mix of dps and burst, is more singletarget focused with some good poke and more mobillity but less tankiness

Nipo2 votes

I like the armor pen idea for his E, turn him into a close range tank destroyer really suites his personality

Doogmi2 votes

Graves has a base mana regen of 6.75 per 5 and lucian has a 7 per 5. Almost identical. Regeneration and Lucian having no cost on his dash are not the issues in my opinion. They are burst ADC types, but graves wasn't designed to be extremely mobile and Lucian wasnt designed to be short ranged. As such their kits function differently. Lucian combos his qwe and weaves his passive in between each ability to maximize his damage output. Graves traditional e's in and uses his q at close range to hit every bullet on his opponent while having his passive maxed to win trades/maximize damage output. I would agree his q-w costs are slightly high but taking into account graves damaged output of his main ad scaling spell q. And lucians main ad scaling spell q you may be able to see why. A level 5 graves q with all bullets hitting will do 360(144%)bonus ad. Where as Lucian does 200(120%) bonus ad. That is significant damage. Then taking into account graves full combo vs Lucia s full combo. Graves can eqr and have that damaged out in roughly 1.5 seconds. Ult doing 550(150) bonus ad he can easily push out 900 DMG in base values alone in under 2 seconds. Lucian has to cast and weave his passive to surpass graves burst. Granted because of lucians passive I believe he deals more damage than graves, but it comes at a longer duration and is more avoidable(especially his ult ) than graves burst. Lucian beats graves IMO simply off of mobility, because of how strong mobility tends to be. While they fit the same "niche" technically, fundamentally they are differnt. It would be like saying ezreal should be buffed because Cork does more damage even though they are both caster ADCs. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses

Doogmi1 votes

Also worth mentioning graves q only has a range of 950. While lucans q has a max of 1100 and ardent blaze is 1200. Meaning Lucian can poke from a safer range than graves also giving him a slight edge as far as trade potential goes.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Graves, on the other hand, has a big steroid to tankiness, reducing the damage he takes in extended trades.

KSHarrison1 votes

I like these suggestions. Not sure on the autoattack range one but maybe it would work.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

The range thing I can see working out well in combination with the passive ramping up faster.

However, what Graves would really appreciate is for item 3508 to get a build path that includes some form of mana regen pre-completed item. I think adding item 3114 to the recipe and upping the cost a bit again could work out, with the final ER retaining 4-8 Mp5.

Thryale3 votes

speaking of esseance reaver, I honestly don't like it costing so much as is. This is an early game item with late game stats(and cost).

personally, I think it should be item 1053 + item 3114 + 300-400 ish gold instead of it's current build path.

I think a change like that would help out caster adc champs so much compared to what it's doing atm. (seriously, why does it have the same EXACT build path as BT?)

SnugglyBunnies1 votes

I agree with this, if item 3508 was made more as an equivalent to item 3144 in price and effectiveness, that would be much better. It could then maybe be included into another upgrade to make it cost more. As it stands, it needs to be an early game item or it's basically worthless.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Although, what would be the difference between ER building out of item 1053 and item 3114, with a item 1038, and a component item building out the former two? I can't really see them putting ER's passive on a component item, as that would give the item a rather difficult-to-balance powerspike.

Having an Idol in the build path would easily be enough to make the whole ER a worthwhile buy, as Idol and its components give a decent amount of mana regeneration. Especially since Faerie Charms are positioned at a convenient pricepoint of 180 gold.

SnugglyBunnies1 votes

First problem, item 3114 doesn't offer any damage. The combined cost of item 3114 and item 1053 is 1500 (plus a recipe combine cost to make it into an item) and it could be relatively close to item 3144 (1400g) , maybe make it 1800g total for this "new" item and give it relative stats for the price. Then you make it part of an item that is worth the same as item 3072 (right now ER is 3200g, BT is 3500g). Put those costs equal, add item 1038 plus this "new" item and have new ER which can "overmana" you into a shield like BT. Now maybe it's worth having?

Teridax681 votes

Change 2 looks a bit to Lucian-y, but the other changes you mentioned are really good. I agree with 12Tales that the best way to handle Graves would be to emphasize his own playstyle: Lucian is a slippery caster marksman who uses his mobility to keep his opponents at the edge of his range. Graves, on the other hand, wants to be as close to the enemy's face as possible. He's a marksman who can get to really dangerous ranges and still manage to tough it out, so I think he needs to have his tankiness and all-in accentuated at a significant tradeoff (particularly his range, which could be even shorter than Lucian's).

Nipo1 votes

Grave's smokescreen could apply a silence to those initially hit, slow the projectile speed to compensate. inb4 that crazy op blah blah blah... Just trying to help with the flow of ideas

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