Why does Riot have double standards for Lee Sin? Even implying that they KNOW he's broken.

Horrow·Jan 7, 2015·104 votes·6,419 views

https://twitter.com/RiotMorello/status/484042166948212736 - Ryan Scot: " Actually, when we nerf Lee, it causes a HUGE uproar. If I wasn't worried about what people thought we'd nerf him months ago. "

Why nerf ANY champion since EVERY champion's fanbase will think lowly of their champion being nerfed. This reason seems completely retarded to me when you're trying to decide whether or not to balance a game. Why the double standard with Lee? Why only think of the backlash from his fanbase instead of taking into the consideration of the rest of the community who have to put up with Lee?

89 Comments

AbyssphereJan 7, 201562 votes

I wish they would realise that Lee Sin's fanbase is not bigger than the number of people who are sick of him.

MrBuffingtonJan 7, 201512 votes

Yea, I always see these threads complaining about Lee, but I haven't seen this so called backlash from the community about gutting him

NarasimhaJan 8, 20153 votes

Well yeah, thats just human psychology. If a person is fine with Lee, they have no real reason to make threads or comments saying "He's fine." On the other hand, if a person hates Lee, they have every reason to be expressive about it. Hence the term "vocal minority." Or I think thats the term. Whatever, you get the main point.

MrBuffingtonJan 8, 20153 votes

The last time I remember Lee getting a nerf, there was a blip of complaints for like half a day, where there are popular threads complaining about Lee on Boards pretty much every single day. I was going off MotherTeresa1910's point that Morello seems to think that the whole LoL community will turn against them if they nerf/rework Lee Sin into something that's not as dominant, where honestly it looks like there's actually substantially more support for it than opposition.

NarasimhaJan 8, 20151 votes

where honestly **it looks like **there's actually substantially more support for it than opposition.

And thats the point I'm trying to get it. Its impossible for us to know if there is in fact more or less support. There are a lot of complainers, but that doesn't say anything about people who are fine with it. It just means a lot of people complain. Also, the last time Riot tried to go near Lee for his 'rework, the backlash was...considerable. I mean, DAMN. The reason why the complaints didn't last a long time was because the rework itself was quickly scrapped.

MrBuffingtonJan 8, 20152 votes

I've definitely heard rumors about that, never seen it for myself; is this what you're talking about?. Because after reading some Cassiopeia threads it doesn't seem that bad tbh. What I don't understand is that there's been backlash for like, half a year about the Cassiopeia rework, there's ongoing backlash about the constant Sona nerfs, etc. but that doesn't stop them from continuing anyways with the changes.

Honestly, the number of people who are fine with Lee as he is right now (I'm sort of one of them; I'd like to see more diversity at the professional level, but I think he does occasionally do some cool stuff even if most of it is pretty mundane at this point, and I don't care about Lee in my own games cause no one at my elo knows how to play him) is pretty much the same as the number of people who'd be fine with Lee if he got reworked.

The frustrating this is, sure, if they acknowledge that Lee is broken (which they have on several occasions), and they can't change him directly because they're afraid of the community, why not just boost everyone up to his level? But for some reason, other junglers that are competitors to him (Elise, Eve, Kha, Rengar) all seem to get nerfed, and none of the other junglers receive significant enough buffs to compete. They don't balance Lee to the game, and they don't balance the game around Lee

MEMEME670Jan 8, 20153 votes

I've definitely heard rumors about that, never seen it for myself; is this what you're talking about?. Because after reading some Cassiopeia threads it doesn't seem that bad tbh. What I don't understand is that there's been backlash for like, half a year about the Cassiopeia rework, there's ongoing backlash about the constant Sona nerfs, etc. but that doesn't stop them from continuing anyways with the changes.

You're thinking too close to home.

Riot has said that the chinese(I believe) community REALLY likes Lee, and they feel he does not deserve to be nerfed. So, while you may see all the feedback coming from NA and EU, (more likely you see a semi-random sample, but...) you see 0% of the feedback coming from non-english speaking players of LoL, who probably make up a bigger number of people than the english speaking players.

MrBuffingtonJan 8, 20151 votes

Fair enough, I guess inSec plays in China now (I think? I'm assuming he's still with SHRC), lol (I know it's not just inSec but yea)

I guess when I'm not QQing (for the record I don't really have a problem with Lee; no one can play him well at my elo and he does have some cool plays at the professional level. I just understand the sentiment a lot of NA/EU players have and sort of argue in favor of that) I don't think he should be nerfed, rather reworked; I more get the impression that Lee is going to get reworked anyways (a few Riot comments have hinted at that. I think the first rework had so much backlash since, from what I saw, they were really watering down his kit, instead of emphasizing what makes Lee Sin cool and de-emphasizing what he doesn't really need, like the spell-vamp or something)

BastionKrossJan 7, 201516 votes

So the lesson we can take away from this is that if they want to nerf a champion, and you make a big enough uproar, they'll stop.

HorrowJan 7, 20152 votes

That's the message I'm getting from his quote.

RedCycloneJan 7, 201537 votes

Nah, just look at the gameplay and balance page It's like 90% complaints onto why Sona is getting nerfed

After some crappy information onto why she is getting nerfed and people posting valid complaints we get "these changes are going to live anyway"

Riot just play favorites with champions and say the community is the reason why they can't do anything

BastionKrossJan 7, 201520 votes

Obviously the uproar isn't big enough for Sona.

Knowing the kind of people who defend Lee, they probably sent letters directly to the Rioter's houses. And those letters had spelling mistakes. And were written in poop.

GiovarcoJan 7, 20153 votes

and Cassiopeia? No enough uproar maybe.

Ulquiorra995Jan 7, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Obviously the uproar isn't big enough for Sona.

Knowing the kind of people who defend Lee, they probably sent letters directly to the Rioter's houses. And those letters had spelling mistakes. And were written in poop.

{quoted}

and Cassiopeia? No enough uproar maybe.

It's not community uproar which prevents them from getting Lee his well-deserved beatdown. It's uproar backed with LC$BIGPLAYS.

Starkiller X51Jan 7, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Obviously the uproar isn't big enough for Sona.

Knowing the kind of people who defend Lee, they probably sent letters directly to the Rioter's houses. And those letters had spelling mistakes. And were written in poop.

i know a guy that was ready to send a letter to riot telling them off because my brother got an ip boost before he got his(one of those times when they gave one to everyone, i dont remember what for)

SarutobiJan 7, 201512 votes

Because if they do something wrong this means less "LCSPlays" and then the whole tournament would be boring! i mean who wants to watch a game with different champions anyway?

GiovarcoJan 7, 201511 votes

Ryan Scot: " Actually, when we nerf Lee, it causes a HUGE uproar. If I wasn't worried about what people thought we'd nerf him months ago. "

And Sona? And Cassiopeia? No enough uproar?

They should just nerf all the popular champions, so other champions can seen some plays on LCS.

FantasySniperJan 8, 20151 votes

Not enough people played Cass. Sona is a different story, but the amount of people picking up Sona was way bigger than the amount dropping her.

ArkenStormJan 8, 20153 votes

fizz zed lee. yep.

AbsoluteSadmanJan 7, 20156 votes

riot dosent love lee sin, their scared of the fans losing their shit whenever they do so much as tweak his numbers. anyone remember when they tried to rework him?

MetalGearTeemuJan 7, 20154 votes

"Tencent told us not to"

MetalGearTeemuJan 7, 20154 votes

Lee Sin and Ori are the favored children of RITO's LC$ lineup.

And enjoy comfortable nerf free lives. Ori in particular saw heavy play in 3 straight championships, a run of viability which is pretty much uncontested.

SammystormJan 7, 20157 votes

she is rarely played in regular lcs play though. The reason she is seen so much in worlds is because she is safe.

FaveokatroJan 8, 20153 votes

I don't think it's just safety. It's also really easy to blend her into pretty much any teamfighting comp.

YfrappefortJan 8, 20154 votes

If we follow that "uproar" logic, they should revert the Sona nerfs, right?

King MugiwaraJan 8, 20154 votes

I never play Lee sin and my brother asked me to play him (he plays LoL) and hed watch, and so I did. I was chanting Lee sins name sarcastically saying stuff like "Oh you make big mistake Mr. or Ms. I am Lee sin" every time I went around and got objective easily and kills as a side dish. He is so easily rewarding to play. Not to mention my brother got pissed at me clearly noticing my sarcasm and commenting that Lee sin takes skill to play just like Akali, Syndra, Zed, Fizz. "LMAO" I did, and almost got in fight.

Skia AsteriJan 7, 20153 votes

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=jungle-matchup&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond

He is already extremely bad in soloQ at any rank below master.

TrumpetJan 7, 20159 votes

Your argument is invalid because the same thing happened with Shaco in S2. He had a really low win rate in bronze to plat (diamond was the highest rank then), and riot nerfed him hard specifically because he was top pick in diamond even though his stats were atrocious in plat and below.

MatezoideJan 7, 20153 votes

Riot is not perfect with their balancing, but thats to be expected.

The problem is that they are huge hypocrites when it comes to Lee Sin. They would rather rebuild the entire jungle and it's items to promote some variety (Which didnt work) instead of nerfing him.

Rengar SupportJan 7, 20153 votes

I personally just don't understand Lee Sin. Yes he is the best jungler in the game especially if you know how to play him and jungle correctly. He has the best mobility in the game, he has great stats and has great damage early game (falls off late game) But for a jungler job it is to snowball your teams lane or get them ahead and with his insane early game damage he can do it easy.

The prime reason Lee Sin has to be nerfed is because he has been a dominating force since Season 1 he was released April 1st 2011. And for him to still be a force to reckon with for over 4 years. Yes Lee Sin needs to get some nerfs so if you aren't a god Lee Sin you auto win the game.

SnowplosionJan 7, 20153 votes

Yeah my friends and I went over him and he isn't that great. He can get shredded quickly and if there is a ward...

SionideCNJan 7, 20152 votes

If Lee Sin is broken...

Then why is he not even one of the top three jungle champs right now?

Jarvan, Vi, Nunu

JunkοJan 7, 201515 votes

Nunu, top jungle champ? LOOOOOOOOOOOL

SionideCNJan 7, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PeTAzkGZ,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-01-07T19:57:07.373+0000)

Nunu, top jungle champ? LOOOOOOOOOOOL

This is simply cause you don't know how to play nunu.

Buy a sight stone, invalidate their jungler

JunkοJan 7, 20158 votes

Enemy team is smart enough to ward their jungle once they realize you are counterjungling(with wolves smite effect this isn't that hard)? Get caught and die

SionideCNJan 7, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PeTAzkGZ,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-07T20:02:28.751+0000)

Enemy team is smart enough to ward their jungle once they realize you are counterjungling(with wolves smite effect this isn't that hard)? Get caught and die

You clearly don't get how nunu works. -.-

Brenticus12Jan 7, 20156 votes

It is easy to defeat a Nunu counter jungle if you ward and get your laners to collapse on him. You can also be aggresssive and steal his creeps too.

SionideCNJan 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PeTAzkGZ,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-07T20:02:28.751+0000)

Enemy team is smart enough to ward their jungle once they realize you are counterjungling(with wolves smite effect this isn't that hard)? Get caught and die

Why are you dumb enough to ever leave wolves up? you don't even need to take the camp just smite it so they can't gain benefits from it, rush a sightstone and make sure they're useless.

JunkοJan 9, 20151 votes

So what if you take wolves?

item 3340 exists to give vision

Rinky DinkyJan 7, 20153 votes

Nunu actually is a top pick... Alot of junglers are good right now.

Xin, Jarvan, Vi, Lee Sin, Fiddelsticks, Sejuani (Those buffs tho), Shaco... etc

Problem is, Lee Sin is crowding out everyone besides Jarvin. If Lee was gone, all of those champs and more would be 100%.

ReazaleJan 8, 20151 votes

Sej? buff? , i could swear they were a huge nerf :S

Rinky DinkyJan 8, 20152 votes

Not at all. She might be one of the most terrifying lategame teamfighters right now. Build full tank and do stupid amounts of aoe damage.

Her ganks aren't all that bad either. Knock Up, Slow, Burst, and then a stun if your ult is up.

Chilling smite as well If you go that route. If you get 40% cdr, (Which you should be doing), you will have your w up permantly, as long as you have mana for it, which you should, because of her huge mana pool buff. Once E is maxed out, it will be up every 3.6 seconds.

She is quite scary. If you need an AP tank, with cc, Sejuani is your friend.

TeemoHunter1337Jan 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If Lee Sin is broken...

Then why is he not even one of the top three jungle champs right now?

Jarvan, Vi, Nunu

its actually harvan lee rek sai

Bears Dont CareJan 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

its actually harvan lee rek sai

I wouldn't put Rek'sai up there. Nunu is far better.

TeemoHunter1337Jan 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't put Rek'sai up there. Nunu is far better.

nuh im talking about solo queue. nunu is a terrible pick unless u think u can win within 20 minutes. nunu only works in high high high elo like diamond 3+ or in team ranked 5s.

solo queue nunu sucks. espeically plat and below.

LeeDarkJan 7, 20152 votes

It's a load of crap. Just passing the buck. If it were true, Cassiopeia's rework would have been nixed, the lore would have been reverted, and quite a few champion balance changes would have never made it off the PBE.

The real surprise is that you don't expect Riot to lie to us by now.

Oliver HarttJan 8, 20152 votes

I'm I the only person in the world who feels that he falls off late, and isn't that OP at all?

DeathByWaffleJan 8, 20152 votes

e$ports

Lee $in

SensualMuffinsJan 8, 20151 votes

I'm salty that DJ Sona was downgraded to a mere legendary skin. If Sona can get a skin nerf, Lee Sin can get a full on Old Evelynn / Olaf treatment.

OJ191Jan 8, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I'm salty that DJ Sona was downgraded to a mere legendary skin. If Sona can get a skin nerf, Lee Sin can get a full on Old Evelynn / Olaf treatment.

nobody ever proved, nor did riot ever confirm, that DJ sona was to be an ultimate skin. People found some files naming DJ Sona on the PBE, and rumours began. That is all. Rumours. So stop being salty about something that was never a thing, ok?