Was Azir's recent Q nerf a poorly thought nerf?

Horrow··17 votes·1,884 views

I'm no Azir main, mind you. If you look at my history, I've played a total of thirteen games with him total, from roughly the day he was released. So the nerf doesn't affect me since he isn't a champion I fancy playing.

With that out of the way, you can safely assume I'm not someone who's mad that his main was nerfed. I don't play Azir.

The Q nerf I'm talking about is found in the 5.17 patch notes. http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/09/patch-517-notes.html

"Enemies no longer take additional damage for being hit by soldiers beyond the first"

So when you have two or more Sand Soldiers, then Q them into an enemy champion, only ONE soldier is going to deal damage. So even if you hit an enemy champion with two or three Soldiers from your Q, only one is going to actually deal damage and slow. Is this really a fair nerf? Why should sand soldiers who clearly hit the target NOT do damage? That just sounds and looks completely bizarre.

I know that logic should never really be taken into account as far as balancing goes...but this is seriously the exception. In what world does it make sense that three sand soldiers charge you down with their lances, but when all three hit, two of them actually don't do any damage to you. Only the first one that touches you counts as damage.

That's a decent chunk of damage taken away but its also a very misleading type of nerf. Why shouldn't players be rewarded for landing multiple sand soldiers on their target? Is it hard to do? Not really. But it makes a ton of more sense that if your sand soldier runs into something, it should deal damage to it.

I understand Azir was pretty crazy in terms of damage, but is this really the right way to nerf him? You couldn't just start with additional sand soldiers dealing less and less damage if multiple ones run into an enemy?

Nerfs like these are pretty big pet peeves of mine. If you land your ability on someone, the target should take damage from it. Not only part of it.

30 Comments

iainB858 votes

I agree it was a poorly thought out nerf. Managing the amount of soliders was actually something you had to think about.

A better nerf would have been to nerf his up front damage with just one solider, and make it not so easy to rush them in for a single auto that does massive damage.

Instead they should have fostered the sustain DPS play style of the soldiers and encouraged Azir to build up an army and do massive damage in a sustained fight, not just make him another burst mage which we have plenty of.

PastaMario5 votes

Hmm, so what you're saying is something like toning down Azir's sand solider's individual autoattack damage, but removing reduced damage from additional sand solder autoattacks to 25%? I agree with that. It would really make Azir more DPS focused like you said.

Poske6 votes

Yes absolutely ugly nerf

They could just lower the dmg not remove something interesting

Kledy McKledFace2 votes

its a good nerf, its toning down his w-w-w-w - q 3k damages

Horrow7 votes

{quoted}

its a good nerf, its toning down his w-w-w-w - q 3k damages

But how does it make sense? Multiple sand soldiers slam into a target but only one does the damage. That literally makes no sense and is very misleading to the player(s) in question.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

But how does it make sense? Multiple sand soldiers slam into a target but only one does the damage. That literally makes no sense and is very misleading to the player(s) in question.

It's no different to Glitter Lance.

RottedApples1 votes

and to some extent talon ult

Bârd2 votes

I've played him a total of Thirteen games with him total

That is redundant

Horrow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The True Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FtTl8iZW,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-11T23:12:53.454+0000)

That is redundant

You got me. I'm pretty terrible with the English language.

Sightless662 votes

but this is seriously the exception. In what world does it make sense that three sand soldiers charge you down with their lances, but when all three hit, two of them actually don't do any damage to you

In what world does it make sense that hitting you with more than one shotgun slug cause every slug past the first to hurt less (Graves)? In what world does it make sense that enemies getting hit by he lances of more than one soldier cause the lances of all soldiers past the first to hurt less (Azir autos)you are hurt from the lances of the other soldiers less? In what world can you bounce a bullet off of something onto someone and have it hurt more if and only if it kills the first thing, or for large waves of bullets to each hurt the exact same amount no matter how many bullets the person actually gets hit with (MF Q and R)? Or how does it make sense that getting hit with one of Lulu's glitter lances makes the other one useless against you, or how does it make sense that I can't hit you with both Qs when I'm playing as Sona?

As far as logic goes, this isn't really inconsistent with any logic that League has shown in the past. It's definitely nothing unreasonable.

Balance-wise, it's a pretty acceptable nerf. He's a champion designed around having very high sustained damage. Having a majorly potential for burst on top of that was a problem. The Q already serves its role as a repositioning skill with a small amount of damage and a slow just fine. It doesn't need more to do that job. Theoretically, I suppose we could have reduced the damage on secondary soldiers even more than it was already reduced, but there isn't really any reason to bother, particularly because he was strong enough to just take the removal of the second soldier damage entirely. If you make the secondary soldier damage too low, you also run the risk of it adding a slight bit of power to the kit, but not in a form anyone appreciates or cares about. That kind of unappreciated power is something you really don't want to be putting in kits if you can get away with it. There just wasn't much of a reason to try to make that work when this was a lot simpler.

1000angrybees2 votes

Frankly, he's a fucking jackass to lane against and I don't care. It was like when Leblanc got nerfed.

but you know what? maybe there should be some type of give and take. Maybe make it so there's no extra damage at rank 1. Then maybe it scales through the extra ranks. All I know is a nerf WAS necessary, just maybe not this one specifically.

HaugheyPuck991 votes

Because the whole point of having multiple sand soldiers is to stack the damage with their auto attacks. If Azir throws all 3 soldiers at someone he now has to take a few extra seconds to get a couple attacks off before he runs away. That way he can't just use his Q for massive damage without putting himself at any risk. They want him to be more auto attack reliant, so it's really just to give his enemies a bit more of a chance to fight back against him from range.

qetzel1 votes

Would you prefer each soldier to deal one third damage.

Riot decided his Q needed a damage nerf. How else are you going to bring the best case scenario down without affecting the worst case?

On another note, other champions do work in similar ways. Ahri (W) Perhaps Yasuo (E) among others. It isn't rare for abilities to do this.

Horrow2 votes

{quoted}

Would you prefer each soldier to deal one third damage.

Riot decided his Q needed a damage nerf. How else are you going to bring the best case scenario down without affecting the worst case?

On another note, other champions do work in similar ways. Ahri (W) Perhaps Yasuo (E) among others. It isn't rare for abilities to do this.

Some kind of damage. Like I said, reduced damage for each additional soldier would be leagues better than them literally hitting the target and dealing no damage.

Worst LeBlanc NA1 votes

How often do you really hit people when you send soldiers to them? They spread out. Not all 3 soldiers stack ontop of each other, there's a gap between them (better so it covers more area) that nerf doesn't even matter, but the missing knock-up on E is kinda awkward but w.e

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Because it doesn't make sense for Azir to have mobility, sustained damage, burst damage, and one of the best self-peeling tools in the entire game on the same kit. Something had to give, and Azir lost his burst so that his intended strengths (sustained damage, mobility, self-peeling ultimate) can be good.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Both his E and the recent Q nerfs look and feel really bad, but I'm hoping these are just bandaid nerfs for worlds. In the preseason I hope they will revert the Q and E nerf and try something else.

1 800 MID LANE1 votes

I don't think it's a bad nerf. Poorly thought-out, maybe, but he has massive damage as it is. Especially with item 3115 item 3116. I think his Q was generally more used for the slow, anyway. The damage was nice, but his kit is HUGE. Yes, he's hard to play. Very hard. It's just that he already has a lot of utility and damage that if you're good with him, it's very hard to lose lane. His counters don't even counter him hugely. The only one I've ever had a lot of trouble with is Zed.

IxtaliKing3 votes

This is why I say they should have just significantly reduced Qs damage and reduced it's CD to make it more of a repositioning skill. I think would have made a little more sense than the current nerf.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Yes, please. "DPS" mage out bursts burst mages with just Q when it's supposed to be a soldier repositioning skill. It should do like 200 after ratios late game, while his soldiers do the dirty work of stabbing people.

Jefftiffy1 votes

I feel like it was more of a kneejerk nerfs to keep him out of worlds. I mean he obviously is going to get some kind of compensation next patch (not the one for worlds). I wouldn't mind keeping these nerfs if you brought back his knock up on his E.

Sohleks1 votes

This thread may have a point. In fact extra soldiers only increases the W aa dmg by 25% each. Without that extra soldiers provide basically ZERO extra power. WTF?

25% does look small though; with three total soldiers his W does its damage plus another 50%, which in a fight matters...

but yeah you could very easily delete the effect of extra soldiers and longer time Azir players will either be tricked into using all their soldiers or asking WTF did they do to this champion...

I'm sure the nerf was a very targetted attack at his "poke burst" though. In a way it is nicer for Azir he doesn't have use all his soldiers to do balanced maximum "poke burst" when sieging before a possible fight. Remember this champion had too many strengths... teamfight control, greater safety than most backline mages... high damage... highly useful utility in jungles or sieges...

Nekusen1 votes

why does Heimerdinger R-E that bounced multiple times only affect each target once ?

{quoted}

This thread may have a point. In fact extra soldiers only increases the W aa dmg by 25% each. Without that extra soldiers provide basically ZERO extra power. WTF?

no extra power, but extra area, having more soldiers increases the area of damage.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

I'm just imagining Heimer ult'ing someone with a 6 second stun.

Nekusen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FtTl8iZW,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2015-09-12T00:55:16.849+0000)

I'm just imagining Heimer ult'ing someone with a 6 second stun.

thats the issue, balance if above "sense". though R-E could get damage stacked and stun refreshed instead of stacked.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I feel like they don't know how to nerf champions well. I think an appropriate nerf would have been to reduce the ability to Q into immediate AA. As someone who mained Azir when he came out (though now I main Bard/TK/Ekko, if you believe my champion mastery levels)... I always felt it was WAY too easy to just Q into AA and deal a ton of damage with minimal effort, and then also zone the area the enemy was just at, if they try to return.

Is Azir difficult to use? Not really. I mage/support main and was able to pick him up VERY quickly. He's also easier to CS with than many mages (hello Anivia) because of his soldiers' free AAs. He SEEMS difficult to use, but he's not. He's a stronger version of Orianna. All the same, it feels really bad that they just removed most of his passive, removed most of his E's utility, and are now removing much of his Q. When balancing, I believe that gradual shifts are better than complete overhauls of abilities.

Miraweave1 votes

It's a fair nerf because letting the damage stack made his harass absolutely disgusting.

They still stack their autoattack damage.

DEmperor951 votes

While yeah it doesn't make sense, to be honest I don't think this nerf is a big deal. His damage is still almost as high as it was before

It's the stupid as hell nerf to his base MS from 335 to 325 that destroyed him and made him shit-tier.

Hay5eed1 votes

I totally agree with you I think that it is nonsense. Not even looking at it from a strictly logical perspective I think it is silly that Azir can carefully place two or three soldiers and then use his Q and now those soldiers are out of place AND you did no damage besides the first hit. They could have made it like his auto attacks where each solider after the first deals 33% reduced damage or something but no we can't just nerf Azir we have to essentially murder him.

First you take away a vital part of his passive, his 1.25% Attack Speed per 1% of Cool-down Reduction and tack it onto his W, which either his second maxed ability or his third so now his laning is screwed up. Then they take away the knock-up on his E so now he can't shurima shuffle targets into his team because as soon as he dives to them he will get melted and now they make it so that his Q deals no extra damage with extra soldiers? WTF?

Azir used to be a man that commanded an army. Forget that now. He commands a PERSON.

From now on when you play Azir only have one solider summoned at a time in lane because.... 1.) Getting two solider puts you W on a long CD. 2.) You are using mana more often. 3.) You're Q poke doesn't have extra damage with more soldiers. 4.) When you do Q poke, your soldiers are out of position so it makes it hard to farm, saving a solider for these situations is very helpful. 5.) Azir can be ganked easily, and your only escape is to use your E, which requires a solider in the right position.

Because remember players... It's fair for Lee Sin to use his R and flash to kick the enemy ADC into his team, but not for Azir to use ALL of his abilities save his summoner spells to do the same thing. It's fair for Heimerdinger to have three turrets on the field and do three times the damage without even having to do anything. But it's not ok for Azir 's solider's to do the same thing when they only last 6-9 secs It's ok for Riven to have a dash with a shield that scales off of attack damage, but Azir can't knock up champs he dashes into, and only gets a shield that scales off of bonus health It's ok for Gragas to have an ability called "Drunken Rage", but Graves can't have a cigar.

xpo12201 votes

Honestly if this was to nerf his early game damage, it wont. This will only hurt his mid and late game damage. If Riot wanted to nerf his early game damage, they should've lowered his Q's base damage to something similar like Kalista's Q.

Kalista's Q = 10/70/130/190/250 (+100% AD) Azir's CURRENT Q = 65/85/105/125/145 (+50% AP)

Azir's NEW Q should be = 10/45/80/115/150 (+50% AP)<-- This would make Azir's Q be used more as a reposition skill during laning phase without it chunking a load of your health.

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