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How come everyone is up in arms about Zoe but not about Brand?

the weeaboo··2 votes·477 views

Right now many of the issues people are presenting with Zoe are also present in Brand but I don't see anyone angry about Brand.

Brand is a fellow artillery mage. He has a massive range on both his W and Q. He has a pretty powerful stun. His W hit box is pretty stupid big. He doesn't need to hit a skillshot on you to put his passive on you, and consequently stun you (which he cannot do through minions). He manages to burst you down with one rotation all while standing on the other side of the lane and remaining at full HP.

He can't do this without ultimate. Throw in his ulti ate and he can shit on teamfight, unlike with Zoe who is a single target mage.

Also unlike Zoe, who has a 50% winrate in Plat and a 47% winrate in Silver, Brand has a 51% winrate in plat and a 53% winrate in silver.

Having to constantly dodge Brand Ws is just as exhausting as Zoe bubbles. You'll get slowed, take a quarter of your HP in damage, and probably stunned and one shotted.

13 Comments

YokoNomi1 votes

Brand I can play against. Zoe gives me ulcers.

the weeaboo1 votes

Brand gives me ulcers. Zoe I can play against.

I dont think I've ever been oneshotted by a Zoe. Chunked? Yes. But I've been oneshotted by support brand more times than I can count.

Anags1 votes

First off, Brand's winrate is quite a bit lower. Probably where he should be. Zoe can one shot with one spell at a certain point. She can dodge things with her ult and increase her range. It makes her harder to punish.

Brand is immobile. Easier to lock down and just dies when that happens. Zoe has access to extra summoners making that potentially more difficult. She can also farm and harass from a safer distance.

Brand has to use multiple abilities to do damage and the enemy team needs to clump up.

Zoe is primarily a poke mage. They are nothing alike and play completely different. She stays back and just pokes and throws out her sleep until it hits.

If Brand walks up to E someone he can't just teleport away. He can easily be jumped on or just take a crit to the face from an ADC. Brand is solid right now but to say he is like Zoe is crazy.

Also, if Brand hits a W you are still alive and free to fight back or move away. With Zoe sleep you are normally blowing a summoner or dead. He's good but lets be real here.

the weeaboo1 votes

Where are you getting the winrate statistics?

Anags1 votes

op.gg

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

Right now many of the issues people are presenting with Zoe are also present in Brand but I don't see anyone angry about Brand.

Brand is a fellow artillery mage. He has a massive range on both his W and Q. He has a pretty powerful stun. His W hit box is pretty stupid big. He doesn't need to hit a skillshot on you to put his passive on you, and consequently stun you (which he cannot do through minions). He manages to burst you down with one rotation all while standing on the other side of the lane and remaining at full HP.

He can't do this without ultimate. Throw in his ulti ate and he can shit on teamfight, unlike with Zoe who is a single target mage.

Also unlike Zoe, who has a 50% winrate in Plat and a 47% winrate in Silver, Brand has a 51% winrate in plat and a 53% winrate in silver.

Having to constantly dodge Brand Ws is just as exhausting as Zoe bubbles. You'll get slowed, take a quarter of your HP in damage, and probably stunned and one shotted.

people are complaining about zoe because people in the league community love to dick ride, bandwagon, and sheep it up. the champion isnt that strong when you compare her to mid laners that are problematic. you know, like Anivia . extremly safe, excellent CC, shit ton of dmg, near impossible to catch without getting baited by egg, etc etc etc. champs like that go under the radar because they are not flavor of the month yet.

YokoNomi1 votes

{quoted}

people are complaining about zoe because people in the league community love to dick ride, bandwagon, and sheep it up. the champion isnt that strong when you compare her to mid laners that are problematic. you know, like Anivia . extremly safe, excellent CC, shit ton of dmg, near impossible to catch without getting baited by egg, etc etc etc. champs like that go under the radar because they are not flavor of the month yet.

Ah, crap. Your bias is showing. Well, that's embarrassing.

I get why you're behaving this way, but people against the complaints need to consider that more than just Zoe has been given this treatment since the beginning. It's common that a champion will either be over powered or under powered upon release, but it's less common that the reason is due to how the kit was intended to function. When that becomes the reason, balancing becomes a much bigger issue, hence the complaints. Her kit just allows her budget to almost always be over for her to be relevant. She's pretty much this meta's irelia.

the weeaboo1 votes

But shes balanced... She only has a winrate above 50% in Diamond.

Want to know what champ has a similar or higher winrate in every skill bracket than Zoe? Thats right. Aatrox

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Aatrox/

He has a higher winrate in every bracket except diamond in which case hes only down .4%

YokoNomi1 votes

{quoted}

But shes balanced... She only has a winrate above 50% in Diamond.

Want to know what champ has a similar or higher winrate in every skill bracket than Zoe? Thats right. Aatrox

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Aatrox/

He has a higher winrate in every bracket except diamond in which case hes only down .4%

It's always easy to consider someone powerful or weak based off of a personal interaction with said champion. Due to the issues surrounding Zoe, I'm trying hard to avoid taking in personal experiences or the general nature of players as a whole, and strictly viewing the nature of her kit, how it is meant to function, how it can function. The biggest reason for this is I'm a low MMR player, so by every sense of the word, my experience with most champions is muddled with human errors (no offense to players in my MMR/rank, intentional criticism against myself as well). To see them in the statistical view of more experienced players also feels like the wrong way to go about it, since it's entirely hindsight on my part. I can't form an opinion with just numbers that I am not skilled enough to even create myself, much less understand due to that lack of experience.

It has been awhile since I've ever seen a powerful champion receive so much dislike, not just for her power, but for her function and capabilities. She does have clear weaknesses, something I won't deny. Telegraphed attacks, a potential drop in late game due to the nature of her power, etc. She has flaws, obvious flaws, very unfortunate flaws that work against her. But when that isn't enough, when she's still seen as a problem... we need to look at the big picture here.

Why do people dislike her? What was the motive of her kit and/or intent? What actual specific events are the cause of criticism/opinion? What is her current power budget, and can we feel for certain, it's something that can be adjusted without any issue that'll work against or for the champion in a negative manner?

The final one is the most important I feel like, and is why I feel more compelled to relate her to irelia. Is her kit structured in a way that allows buffs/nerfs to compliment her in a way that makes sense, or is her kit something that will work entirely against her in further actions of development?

I don't dislike Zoe, I wish to make this apparent. But I think the worst thing to do is to forgo logical thinking and pick a side as to say whether or not she is a problem. I think this is why a lot of arguments occur on the board, whenever it involves her. People are too dedicated to an opinion, rather than considering the facts of what she is as of this moment in terms of being a champion.

Anags1 votes

To be fair, their pick rate isn't even in the same ballpark. It's hard to compare winrates when the pick rate is so different.

Enderspider1 votes

differences are

  1. if brand misses his spells it actually means he missed them and he cant hit them anyways
  2. brand's spells can actually be dodged
  3. brand is pretty short range, he cant extend his ranges with any ability(maybe bouncing R on minions but his R doesnt oneshot)
  4. brand has actual cooldowns, leaving him vulnerable for a period while his spells are down
  5. brand needs a full rotation to stun and kill you, while Zoe only needs to hit 2, only 1 if she's fed.

on the contrary brand does have more damage area damage, including percentage damage and constant spell effect application.

Like zoe's strong, but similar to yasuo, she is really frustrating to play against even if she has counterplay(Lissandra )

FabWarlock1 votes

A rioter recently said Brand is overtuned on damage, but they're looking into him. I dunno what they're going to do, but Brand is too oppressive. I don't know how long it'll be before the nerfs though if they ever come at all. His W, R, and passive need something changed. I'd be fine with them toning any of those down a notch. I'd prefer they hit his Q or passive though. His early laning phase is damn aggressive and he just pushes you out when you cs or even try to cast abilities/auto him. A good Brand will deny you farm. Even his auto attack damage is on the high side.

Source: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/wRUXAmkK-patch-chat-with-the-playtest-team-81?show=flat&comment=000a0000 There is another post somewhere but I can't find it at the moment.

There are also recent threads like this: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/r7nPQzoM-surprise-brand-support-most-dmg

You just gotta search man. People are complaining about Brand.

FullmuteAll play1 votes

Shhh, let me climb as sup.

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