Garen rework on PBE.

DarwinTheory··9 votes·26,147 views

To me this feels like a rework so bruiser keystones can be used, conqueror will proc off E, maybe PTA will be viable too too. All with a minor tweak to punish low elo and buff higher elo mains.

In one way it's good low elo players will still Q and spam E and the decreased armour from W will ensure his winrate stays reasonable and not too high by punishing these trades. As will the e armour shred nerf.

The passive buff pre 11 will ensure more intelligent players cant be bullied as much but it because of the sheer amount of damage in the game it won't make a difference to extreme lane bullies like Renekton /Jax / Fiora / Trynd / Keenen / TEEMO and so many others I could name, Garens still gonna be shut down and useless in lane phase. Healing an extra say 50 health between an enemy combo cycle that chunks you for half your health isn't going to make a difference.

Problem is Garens combo completion meanwhile is too weak during lane phase, even TEEMO stands there spamming q and AA'ing outdamaging him before Garens E cycle completes. This will be an even bigger issue with the W nerf/E shred nerf.

I can't see E being better in lane phase Vs melee because of the armour shred reduction....... but it should be better late game now without single target reduction and possibly AS with certain items. And on hit is a bonus.

The one thing I feel for sure that is 100% better is that R buff. That could be the difference in this rework it actually feels like an ultimate now. On paper.

But for me the core problem is Garen gets bullied in lane phase by well.....everyone....and this rework does nothing to address that issue. Or range abusers.

43 Comments

overpoweredscrub3 votes

garen is such an annoyance to deal with. Guy is tanky, deals damage, heals as if he has warmogs or mundo's ult for free once he hits a certain level after going out of combat for a few seconds. Garen in season 3 was never this crazy but they've been just giving garen buff after buff from the insane regen buff, to the true damage on basically everything garen has against a villain, then the armor shred. Garen is kinda overloaded and I just kinda sit back and laugh as I watch and anticipate what riot will do next to buff garen. Apparently he is still the underdog.

xDogMeatx4 votes

{quoted}

garen is such an annoyance to deal with. Guy is tanky, deals damage, heals as if he has warmogs or mundo's ult for free once he hits a certain level after going out of combat for a few seconds. Garen in season 3 was never this crazy but they've been just giving garen buff after buff from the insane regen buff, to the true damage on basically everything garen has against a villain, then the armor shred. Garen is kinda overloaded and I just kinda sit back and laugh as I watch and anticipate what riot will do next to buff garen. Apparently he is still the underdog.

he just needs a dash/grab in some form instead of all these buffs.

overpoweredscrub2 votes

{quoted}

he just needs a dash/grab in some form instead of all these buffs.

bro hell yeah! you a fucking genius. Not kidding, i think garen needed a dash for years now eversince he was released. Fuck all that tanky stat, regen, just give him a fucking dash lol

xDogMeatx3 votes

It's funny cuz it's true I mean look at morde/darius/illaoi they have a 'grab' ability vs the enemy.

GayrensTari2 votes

{quoted}

bro hell yeah! you a fucking genius. Not kidding, i think garen needed a dash for years now eversince he was released. Fuck all that tanky stat, regen, just give him a fucking dash lol

That would not be a warrior's play style anymore.

overpoweredscrub2 votes

{quoted}

That would not be a warrior's play style anymore.

So is yi not a "warrior" because he has a dash? Do all champions with dashes no longer count as warriors? What the fuck even... Garen was never said to be a warrior the fuck?

GayrensTari1 votes

{quoted}

So is yi not a "warrior" because he has a dash? Do all champions with dashes no longer count as warriors? What the fuck even... Garen was never said to be a warrior the fuck?

What you are talking about? Yi is not a warrior, he is blademaster.

overpoweredscrub2 votes

{quoted}

What you are talking about? Yi is not a warrior, he is blademaster.

hey can anyone tell me what's wrong with this person? They say garen is a warrior and yi is blademaster. Where the hell are you getting these terms from? What the actual fuck?

GayrensTari1 votes

{quoted}

hey can anyone tell me what's wrong with this person? They say garen is a warrior and yi is blademaster. Where the hell are you getting these terms from? What the actual fuck?

THE WUJU BLADESMAN aka blademaster. It's said in his lore.

overpoweredscrub1 votes

{quoted}

THE WUJU BLADESMAN aka blademaster. It's said in his lore.

if you wanna talk about lore, garen is not a fucking warrior dumbass. Garen is the might of demacia. And there isn't even a description of what a warrior is. A warrior is not supposed to have a dash? Who the fuck came up with that? You are just making shit up lol

GayrensTari1 votes

"In the years that followed, Garen earned his place in the shieldwall as a warrior of Demacia, and quickly gained a fearsome reputation on the battlefield. " "When the new Sword-Captain of the Dauntless Vanguard fell in battle, Garen found himself put forward for command by his fellow warriors, and the nomination was unopposed."

Garen is the lead warrior of vanguard army! stupid! He is a sword warrior! A vanguard!

overpoweredscrub2 votes

{quoted}

"In the years that followed, Garen earned his place in the shieldwall as a warrior of Demacia, and quickly gained a fearsome reputation on the battlefield. " "When the new Sword-Captain of the Dauntless Vanguard fell in battle, Garen found himself put forward for command by his fellow warriors, and the nomination was unopposed."

Garen is the lead warrior of vanguard army! stupid! He is a sword warrior! A vanguard!

where does it say a warrior must not dash?

GayrensTari2 votes

It's not said they must not dash, it's they can not dash, warriors wear heavy plates, and their weapons are heavy too, they simply can not dash.

PsychicFantasy3 votes

This is a game with fox girls that shoot fireballs, giant hulking dudes that can send you into another dimension and a dumb koala that can go invisible and throw mushrooms out of his ass. If you want to use logic in a game with fantasy elements, then you're gonna come off as a dumb dumb. Garen spins like a Beyblade for 3 seconds with his E and becomes immune to slow and goes FASTER with his Q. If he's such a heavy warrior then all of these things would not work in his favor and just make your point moot. By that logic, if they just replaced one of his abilities with a dash or a grab, it legit wouldn't make a difference. Also, characters that have heavy armor and weapons but do things that would be impossible with said equipment: -Poppy -Volibear -Darius -Mordekaiser -Riven -Tryndamere -Vi -Leona -Xhin Zao

GayrensTari2 votes

No, let me tell you this, Garen's E works just fine with his heavy sword spinning, he uses the principle of centrifugal force,with his extraordinary strength and an incredible sense of balance, it is viable. His heavy armors support him that way as well, which at the same time makes him slow in movement, but that's reasonable, nothing is perfect. He can not dash like assasins or sorcers, who are more of light weight champions, neither does he need to.

overpoweredscrub1 votes

{quoted}

It's not said they must not dash, it's they can not dash, warriors wear heavy plates, and their weapons are heavy too, they simply can not dash.

Then why does poppy have a dash? Why does wukong who carries a really heavy pole dash? Why can xin zhao with heavy armor dash? Why can renekton dash? Why can pantheon dash? Bro do you really think some armor will stop garen from dashing? Second, I'm done replying to you. You have nothing to back up what you say. You are making shit up your ass. Second, lore doesnt account for gameplay. If it did, aurelion sol would cover the entire summoner's rift with his actual size. If lore mattered in gameplay, then xerath would be top most op guaranteed 100 percent win rate champion.

GayrensTari1 votes

Because they are not humans. Xin zhao is not heavy armor, compared with garen's. Garen is human. Lore is lore, it says garen is warrior and yi is blademaster, so you can't change their titles just like that.

overpoweredscrub1 votes

{quoted}

Because they are not humans. Xin zhao is not heavy armor, compared with garen's. Garen is human. Lore is lore, it says garen is warrior and yi is blademaster, so you can't change their titles just like that.

It doesn't fucking matter if they are humans or not. These are all people with special abilities. Tryndamere is a human who can dash with a heavy ass fucking sword. Xin zhao is not heavy armor? Shut the hell up, you're a fucking joke. Apparently xin zhao's armor is made of fucking paper. Oh you didn't know I was being sarcastic? Well I was. It is heavy armor that xin is wearing you idiot lol. holyshit, I'm gonna ignore you so I don't get notifications from you responding

GayrensTari1 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't fucking matter if they are humans or not. These are all people with special abilities. Tryndamere is a human who can dash with a heavy ass fucking sword. Xin zhao is not heavy armor? Shut the hell up, you're a fucking joke. Apparently xin zhao's armor is made of fucking paper. Oh you didn't know I was being sarcastic? Well I was. It is heavy armor that xin is wearing you idiot lol. holyshit, I'm gonna ignore you so I don't get notifications from you responding

Yes it matters if they are humans or not as the principle only applys in human world. And xin zhao is not heavy armor compared with garen. You can tell by the size of their body figures too. XIN ZHAO THE SENESCHAL OF DEMACIA Do you know what seneschal means? It's like a manager, does a manager kind of job needs heavy armor? No.

Tryndamere is also not heavy armor compared with garen. Look at how much skin he exposed with no armors at all.

overpoweredscrub1 votes

{quoted}

Yes it matters if they are humans or not as the principle only applys in human world. And xin zhao is not heavy armor compared with garen. You can tell by the size of their body figures too. XIN ZHAO THE SENESCHAL OF DEMACIA Do you know what seneschal means? It's like a manager, does a manager kind of job needs heavy armor? No.

Tryndamere is also not heavy armor compared with garen. Look at how much skin he exposed with no armors at all.

Ever had a maple bar donut before? Those taste pretty good. Also, I like to eat blueberry pancakes too. But I really love ice cream. What do you like?

Yizus1 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't fucking matter if they are humans or not. These are all people with special abilities. Tryndamere is a human who can dash with a heavy ass fucking sword. Xin zhao is not heavy armor? Shut the hell up, you're a fucking joke. Apparently xin zhao's armor is made of fucking paper. Oh you didn't know I was being sarcastic? Well I was. It is heavy armor that xin is wearing you idiot lol. holyshit, I'm gonna ignore you so I don't get notifications from you responding

Garren is like a six foot 3 250 pound man, wearing heavy plate armor, of course he can dash!!!!! Tryndamere simply throws his sword and holds on(simple physics) Just look at zhin zhao's model next to Garen's much smaller, much thiner. Zhin Zhao looks much much quicker than garen, probably can jump much further. Even fat guys like garen can muster up a Sprint for 3 seconds, about 20 meters!! You are just looking at this wrong very wrong. Garen can't jump, zhin zhao is part asian, and tryndamere is like a tiger.

overpoweredscrub2 votes

{quoted}

"In the years that followed, Garen earned his place in the shieldwall as a warrior of Demacia, and quickly gained a fearsome reputation on the battlefield. " "When the new Sword-Captain of the Dauntless Vanguard fell in battle, Garen found himself put forward for command by his fellow warriors, and the nomination was unopposed."

Garen is the lead warrior of vanguard army! stupid! He is a sword warrior! A vanguard!

you're not even level 30. I've been playing since season 3. You are a fucking joke to come tell me shit you make up from your ass.

GayrensTari1 votes

{quoted}

you're not even level 30. I've been playing since season 3. You are a fucking joke to come tell me shit you make up from your ass.

That is quotes from lore. I'm reporting you.

overpoweredscrub1 votes

{quoted}

That is quotes from lore. I'm reporting you.

did you know master yi likes to eat marshmellows roasted by the fire?

GayrensTari2 votes

{quoted}

did you know master yi likes to eat marshmellows roasted by the fire?

Uhh...Whaaa? Nope.. but I know Garen likes his steaks to be well done. Why? Coz I'm Garen main. (Do not laugh)

Greenette11 votes

{quoted}

Guy is tanky, deals damage, heals as if he has warmogs or mundo's ult for free once he hits a certain level after going out of combat for a few seconds

So Garen is overtuned compared to to Renekton, Fiora, Camille, Irelia and the other fighters? Let's run through the list of what they have:

  1. Becoming tanky through the virtue of bruiser items being so good, in addition to their own defensive steroid. This is something Garen shares with his class except he can only properly utilize BC and Steraks. All the other bruiser items aren't suitable and in the case of Death's Dance, you usually can only purchase this when you're massive ahead.

  2. Most fighters have some combination of true damage, armour bypass, healing, or crowd control and you'll often find a combination of some such effects. Garen has incredibly limited access to the backbone of the fighter class. He has only 2 in-combat steroids, his armour shred and the villain passive, and there are cases where neither can be in effect. I've played some slow games where, at times, there just simply was no Villain and while this is rare it does have a precedent.

  3. Garen has the worst healing mechanic out of all the fighters lol. Other champs can utilize their massive healing mechanics in combat which is the biggest difference. With one empowered Q, Renek will heal more than Garen ever could dream to and it will still take Garen 9s to heal the same amount,** out of combat.** This applies to most other fighters as they tend to have healing attached to their spells and have chances to empower their healing even further.

Garen is an underdog compared to modern champs. That isn't to say he can't do well, especially in situations where people don't respect his damage because he's a simple champ.

Though, I will concede that the new changes will probably make him even stronger in low skill environments. It's going to be glorious.

overpoweredscrub1 votes

{quoted}

So Garen is overtuned compared to to Renekton, Fiora, Camille, Irelia and the other fighters? Let's run through the list of what they have:

  1. Becoming tanky through the virtue of bruiser items being so good, in addition to their own defensive steroid. This is something Garen shares with his class except he can only properly utilize BC and Steraks. All the other bruiser items aren't suitable and in the case of Death's Dance, you usually can only purchase this when you're massive ahead.

  2. Most fighters have some combination of true damage, armour bypass, healing, or crowd control and you'll often find a combination of some such effects. Garen has incredibly limited access to the backbone of the fighter class. He has only 2 in-combat steroids, his armour shred and the villain passive, and there are cases where neither can be in effect. I've played some slow games where, at times, there just simply was no Villain and while this is rare it does have a precedent.

  3. Garen has the worst healing mechanic out of all the fighters lol. Other champs can utilize their massive healing mechanics in combat which is the biggest difference. With one empowered Q, Renek will heal more than Garen ever could dream to and it will still take Garen 9s to heal the same amount,** out of combat.** This applies to most other fighters as they tend to have healing attached to their spells and have chances to empower their healing even further.

Garen is an underdog compared to modern champs. That isn't to say he can't do well, especially in situations where people don't respect his damage because he's a simple champ.

Though, I will concede that the new changes will probably make him even stronger in low skill environments. It's going to be glorious.

compare current garen to season 3, you will see the big difference. Garen is a lot better now than he was back then hands down

Sageace3 votes

Garen's new spin does not work on Shen's W - Spirit Refuge. In fact, it completely negates aLL of Judgement's Damage, not just the On-hit portion.

deathefire323 votes

Can we talk about why this rework is coming, is it that bad for adcs that garen gets played 2 games bot in pro play. Literally top laners keep complainig when mid laners like rumble , viktor, swain,karma and vlad move top, riot does nothing. As soon as a top laner is played bot lane holy shit our precious bot lane has a none adc in it rework it so it can never be played there again

Transcended Tilt2 votes

{quoted}

Can we talk about why this rework is coming, is it that bad for adcs that garen gets played 2 games bot in pro play. Literally top laners keep complainig when mid laners like rumble , viktor, swain,karma and vlad move top, riot does nothing. As soon as a top laner is played bot lane holy shit our precious bot lane has a none adc in it rework it so it can never be played there again

People have been asking for some kind of Garen rework for about 2 years, maybe longer. Specifically they've been asking for the Villain mechanic to be removed and changed to something different. So they're doing that. Another (smaller) talking point has been how underwhelming Garen's spin is. It does hardly any damage unless you build glass cannon, which make the ability pretty useless. It isn't even good for farming, much less trading or anything else early game. This is in no way a reaction to LCS, but instead a reaction to years of requests from the Garen mains community who have been wanting to see changes for a very long time.

taebin2 votes

I think the e got way too overpowered since you can just rush Tiamat and then build attack speed and destroy everyone and have wave clear like no one else in the game. It's fun to play but cancer to play against right now

GRAYB0X2 votes

Garens E is too dam powerful to fight against rn, playing against him in general is really annoying too so that e is just the cherry on top of the crap cake that is garen

Yi Is Mi2 votes

i agree with @Greenette about other champs being better than Garen, but why is Riot's answer always "hey this champ is weak against [insert overtuned champ here] lets buff him so much that he's also op :D" instead of just nerfing the overtuned champs. There's sooooooooooooooooooooooo much damage in the game now it's insane.

Ninjas Flossing2 votes

in regards to the rework, it screams under thought to me. they aren't making him better with these changes they're making him worse while keeping his "kit" exactly the same. same q empowered auto, same w shield, same e spin, same ult single target short range nuke. hes not going to be any different with this except for builds. in which he goes damage all the time and becomes the worlds worst top laner from all of the excessive nerfs. the "new kit" is impossible to balance! he needs a rework on the level of karma or urgot. they need to make him NEW not try to fix whats obviously broken.

Transcended Tilt1 votes

{quoted}

in regards to the rework, it screams under thought to me. they aren't making him better with these changes they're making him worse while keeping his "kit" exactly the same. same q empowered auto, same w shield, same e spin, same ult single target short range nuke. hes not going to be any different with this except for builds. in which he goes damage all the time and becomes the worlds worst top laner from all of the excessive nerfs. the "new kit" is impossible to balance! he needs a rework on the level of karma or urgot. they need to make him NEW not try to fix whats obviously broken.

Garen is intentionally one of the worst champions in the game. Riot wants to have a handful of linear champions like Garen and Annie that are easy to pick up and learn the game for new players. They've expressed that sentiment before. Garen doesn't really start struggling until you get to high plat or low Diamond ELO from what I can tell. There are tons of Garen mains between Iron 4 and Diamond 4, but only a handful get past that, and only a select few have ever made it to challenger. Garen will always be the worst top laner. He's better in mid-lane anyways.

Ninjas Flossing3 votes

he was intentionally EASY not BAD. there are plenty of easy champions to learn on without having one that teaches you nothing but how to go ham and die. besides most players learn gradually so they don't have to keep such a lackluster kit around to compensate like they did WAY back when the had... oh lets say 40 champions

5050BS1 votes

Why Play Urgot? Garen E does what Urgot's W does AND SOOOOO much more.

Can Crit Hits Multiple targets in area Does not slow Garen

Bârd4 votes

Because nothing is in a vaccum.

You aren't just picking Garen's spin, you're picking Garen, so you're stuck with all the other problems the champion has compared to Urgot.

JLMARS1 votes

I disagree with what you've just said, or maybe this is what's happening at low elo, but Garen has legit no counter since you know how to play him, like Darius. The fact is that Garen is a strong champ but not a champ that can 1v9 like a Kata or Kha, his job is to destroy the Vilain and if it's not the carry/adc just annoy other champs with silence and slow if you have good items.[sg-kiko]

5050BS1 votes

You dont have a PBE it would seem.

Garen is Pick or FF@15 right now. Only way to win is that the Garen player does not build ONE of the OnHit items.

Timberbrim1 votes

this entire thread has somehow devolved to arguing about minor details in the lore. I enjoy this greatly

LeagueOfDaveed1 votes

just played against this the adc couldnt even do damage and he just killed me in like 3 seconds when i was braum then got 3 of us and then... we lost and he only had like 1 full item which was trinity force

True Garen1 votes

#LeaveGarenAlone

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