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What is balance?

Brascus·Oct 9, 2015·2 votes·671 views

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What is ~~love~~ balance?

When I consider balance I feel that you have reached it when a reasonable amount of counterplay in the majority of situations is applicable. Enter champion 'x'; this champion demolishes type A champion's and is demolished by type B champion's; most champions fall into 1 of the 2 categories.

To balance this I'd shift kit that would slightly weaken champion 'x' against type A and strengthen champion 'x' against type B, the playing field should be more level overall now, personal skill should dictate your success.

HOWEVER

Someone told me that this is not balance, balance in fact is that 'x' counter picks type A and type B counter picks champion 'x' (rock/paper/scissors/mushroom). Ergo counter picking establishes balance and counter play does not? Or is it a mixture? Yet counter picking is a binary form of balance while counter play is a mastery form of balance; preparation vs timing.

Should things be decided by or simply affected by preparation or timing?

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20 Comments

Kitten of EvilOct 9, 20153 votes

What is ~~love~~balance?

Baby don't ~~hurt~~ nerf me, don't ~~hurt~~ nerf me no more

In seriousness, it should be some combination of preparation and timing. The game shouldn't be over because you picked first and then were counterpicked, and with mastery and timing you should have a fair chance to defeat a champion who might be more suited to countering you. But at the same time, you want attributes of champion kits to counter others. Kayle's ult counters Zed's, but that 2.5 seconds of invulnerability isn't gamebreaking.

I guess another question you could ask is "what is imbalance?" Is it too much raw damage? Is it being too good at too many different things? Too much mobility?

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PJaWRdq6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-09T18:23:10.180+0000)

Baby don't ~~hurt~~ nerf me, don't ~~hurt~~ nerf me no more

I guess another question you could ask is "what is imbalance?" Is it too much raw damage? Is it being too good at too many different things? Too much mobility?

This is a very good question, if the execution of a skill is its counter balance what ratio of difficulty:power is acceptable:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/ccab5155ef3f7d9938c21c3b72552eed/tumblr_n62hmqLTT61sg3x5go3_400.gif

In Tera there is the berserker class which can 1 shot people, but it has several requirements:

Skill has to be over charged (takes 4-5 seconds and releases at max charges regardless)
You're melee, so you have to close the gap all the while everyone can see you charging and you move slowly
You have to hit their back for the crit multiplier + it of course has to crit
The hit box is very small and can miss easily, accuracy is essential

Is that still fair? Is it ok to have an "iwin" button as long as it requires excessive mastery to execute?

Kitten of EvilOct 9, 20151 votes

In a game like this? No. It's not as difficult to set up a situation like that on a team. Sejuani ult? Now you have time to charge your insta-kill and run up. Hide in a bush by yourself, enemy walks in? Bam, instakill. Obviously facechecking in a bush can already get you a nasty surprise, but usually not instant death if just one enemy is there.

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

Couldn't you say that about Darius but we know it doesn't always pan out so predictably, right?

Kitten of EvilOct 9, 20151 votes

You could, but he has no way to kill you in one hit (unless you're already fairly low). Having some amount of reaction time is a good thing, because then both players have a chance to use their mechanical mastery.

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

I guess this is what Riot refers to as 'invisible power', the ramp at which Darius takes to kill a target could be translated in the same ramp in charging seconds for the berserker. Darius needs about 5 seconds to get 5 stacks + a dunk is usually a kill, like a berserker 5 second charge + a back crit is usually a kill. The difference is that you can see Darius' progress where as with the berserker you can't ergo invisible power.

What probably makes it okay to have the difficulty:power ratio of the berserker in Tera is that everyone has either a block or a dodge or both to handle it at any time, where in LoL it's niche to have either one of those things in your kit, which I guess lowers what is acceptable for a difficulty:power ratio.

So what is the highest difficulty:power ratio in LoL?

Kitten of EvilOct 9, 20151 votes

Well, but that it's a ramp is pretty important. It means that he doesn't miss out on all damage if you interrupt his "ramp" and only let him get 2 stacks on you. It's sort of like the difference between a quick-time event and normal play in a video game.

Highest difficulty: power ratio? Nunu's ultimate has a pretty ridiculous potential for maximum damage but the channel time is very long. I guess it's the closest I can think of to your berserker. That or perhaps a Fiddlesticks ultimate.

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PJaWRdq6,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-09T20:15:21.058+0000)

Well, but that it's a ramp is pretty important. It means that he doesn't miss out on all damage if you interrupt his "ramp" and only let him get 2 stacks on you. It's sort of like the difference between a quick-time event and normal play in a video game.

Highest difficulty: power ratio? Nunu's ultimate has a pretty ridiculous potential for maximum damage but the channel time is very long. I guess it's the closest I can think of to your berserker. That or perhaps a Fiddlesticks ultimate.

I guess in that sense it would be like a single target slow mobile nunu ult skill shot on a short CD with a longer charge time. It sounds pretty crazy when you drop '1shot' on the stage, but considering the requirements it could be challenging like Darius to make happen which becomes more difficult to kite the later you are in the game with juggernaut items item 3071 item 3742

If you compare skill shots to targeted skills, usually the trade off is harder to land easier to kill (risk/reward), yet if you have a strong targetable skill like Warwicks ult how much can you gut the rest of the kit to make that okay?

Kitten of EvilOct 9, 20151 votes

Judging by Riot's response to Warwick, a lot of gutting is necessary. And Darius still isn't difficult to kite if you have a well-balanced team. I main mages like Anivia, Vel'Koz, and Lux (along with the occasional Tahm Kench or Bard), and every single one of them can slow, stun, or snare him. I guess that's sort of the difference, it isn't just "get killed or get away"; you actually have a chance to hit the Darius back and even to slow his combo's "charge time" by CCing him or chunking him down.

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

Is this topic too objective for the forums to bite?

ChaosThiefOct 9, 20151 votes

The forums I think look into names, then titles.

It's a small community sometimes...

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

So do you need some kind of consistency with your threads? I like to discuss grey areas which might be uncomfortable for people that need a definitive answer.

ChaosThiefOct 9, 20152 votes

You can look at one example as one of the "GIF lords", known as laughing fish. He constantly is posting GIFs and trying to make people's days better. At this point he is quite well known to regular forum users.

As for the grey areas, if you put dedication into it I'm sure you can make a name for yourself. I have seen a few people who sparked up discussions involving grey areas of lore.

YaskamasandwichOct 9, 20151 votes

I personally believe the scale of balance is more of a mixture of early game champions counter late game champions. That way teams have to have compositions of early and late game champions. If champion x just completely counters champion y then you'll get the Ryze effect where a late game champ counters a not as good late game champ and then just basically wins. That is happening a lot more now adays with some champions running around and it just ruins the lane. It just forces the jungler to camp it and lose objectives or ignore it and turn the game essentially 6v4 since fed late game champ = 2 champions.

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I personally believe the scale of balance is more of a mixture of early game champions counter late game champions. That way teams have to have compositions of early and late game champions. If champion x just completely counters champion y then you'll get the Ryze effect where a late game champ counters a not as good late game champ and then just basically wins. That is happening a lot more now adays with some champions running around and it just ruins the lane. It just forces the jungler to camp it and lose objectives or ignore it and turn the game essentially 6v4 since fed late game champ = 2 champions.

Is it wrong that this is a strategy? Should champion select pull this much weight? Is it interesting for both sides trying to figure out counter picks?

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I personally believe the scale of balance is more of a mixture of early game champions counter late game champions.

Thinking about this more, how weak does a late game champ have to be or how strong does an early game champ have to be?

If you look at Poppy she's incredibly useless early game because of mana inefficiency, compared to her late game where she can 1v5 get a kill or two and leave.

Is the power curve linear or bezier? Do early/late game champs meet halfway at mid game or do early early game champs maintain a power curve advantage 2/3's of the game?

YaskamasandwichOct 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thinking about this more, how weak does a late game champ have to be or how strong does an early game champ have to be?

If you look at Poppy she's incredibly useless early game because of mana inefficiency, compared to her late game where she can 1v5 get a kill or two and leave.

Is the power curve linear or bezier? Do early/late game champs meet halfway at mid game or do early early game champs maintain a power curve advantage 2/3's of the game?

Now that is the question and though I can not give a 100% definitive answer only opinion. Realistically in this case it depends when Riot wants the champion power to change. Will it be like Pantheon's early game dominance, all mid game tanks oppression, or late game Poppy carry victory. In this case the only thing that is not balance is a champion that has absolute power in all phases of the game, or cheating early game power and late game power. Where your early game victory is powerful enough to skip mid game and go straight to late game.

BrascusOct 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Now that is the question and though I can not give a 100% definitive answer only opinion. Realistically in this case it depends when Riot wants the champion power to change. Will it be like Pantheon's early game dominance, all mid game tanks oppression, or late game Poppy carry victory. In this case the only thing that is not balance is a champion that has absolute power in all phases of the game, or cheating early game power and late game power. Where your early game victory is powerful enough to skip mid game and go straight to late game.

So what if a champ is generally average at all stages, does that mean it's overpowered or underpowered since it never really has a large edge over champs that are defined by early or late game but is never really trounced by them either.

Or is that just another niche? Spike early, spike mid, spike late or not at all.

YaskamasandwichOct 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So what if a champ is generally average at all stages, does that mean it's overpowered or underpowered since it never really has a large edge over champs that are defined by early or late game but is never really trounced by them either.

Or is that just another niche? Spike early, spike mid, spike late or not at all.

If the champ has no spike then it would probably not have a place. Aatrox is sadly the best example, bad base stats, bad stat scaling, and relies on items everyone else can get. He has to snowball to stay ahead and he has to snowball fast. Even when he is ahead it feels like he is not. Reason for this is his toxic kit, if he gained one ounce of power it would spiral out of control.

YaskamasandwichOct 9, 20151 votes

Another very important factor to consider are items and how they synergies with champions. Most if not all the juggernauts kits are balanced or close, but because the items that were released with them cover not only their weaknesses but other champion's weaknesses as well. The items themselves can be considered op. For instance a Master Yi for example had great late game strength but had the weakness of being bursted and cced down. He still had the great advantage but had to focus and rely on his teammates to distract and engage. Now with the juggernaut items Master Yi, with or without sated devourer, can do what Poppy did 1v5 but can win.

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