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the fact that BC, LW and Lethality work perfectally together is why tanks are seen as weak.

Irelia Bot·Mar 13, 2017·20 votes·1,560 views

The damage is still decent on BC. The 400 health is something both assassin and Marksmen can make use of.

The 30% armor reduction makes both LW and lethality more effective.

Would it be that crazy making it so that if someone buys BC they can not buy LW/Lethality and vice versa. The synergy of armor pen/reduction in the game is a huge part of why people say tanks are weak.

If a tank could reduce bonus AD by 25% people would be up in arms. But being able to ignore 60% of a tanks armor is seen as perfectly fine?

You build BC as a middle ground item that reduces total armor by up to 30%

You build Leathlity to target squishes.

You build LW to deal with high armor tanks.

They all have their reasoning for beign built but they should not work together like they do.

Make players have to build to deal with problems. Not build the same thing and be most effective regardless of the enemy.

They would be fine on their own for their intended uses but they do not have down sides when combined.

Perhaps it is mainly the existence of Black Cleaver being all around to accessible that is the problem. If you build AD and deal physical damage you can basically always justify it and it benefits everyone on your team who deals physical damage. Make it only auto attacks again for the armor reduction and it will be less ideal.

29 Comments

Critmaster GarenMar 13, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PGVXRjEJ,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-13T00:48:34.703+0000)

Make it only auto attacks again for the armor reduction and it will be less ideal.

fuck no?

i agree that they should prevent last whisper, cleaver and lethality from being easily stackable. its where all the problems with armor being reduced to worthlessnes come from.

but cleaver has been specifically reworked to aid physical damage spellcasters. making it only apply on auto attacks would fuck over so many fighters who arent even an issue with the item.

ModKnightsKemplarMar 13, 20175 votes

If a tank could reduce bonus AD by 25% people would be up in arms. But being able to ignore 60% of a tanks armor is seen as perfectly fine?

I mean... armor reduces physical damage by a lot more than that late game. So... I'm not up in arms about it.

RogueWillMar 14, 20171 votes

It doesn't work the same way, armor shredding reduces your effective gold as a tank, a tank building armor does not reduce the effective gold of the atacker.

DracocrashMar 13, 20175 votes

If a tank could reduce ~~bonus~~Total AD by 25% people would be up in arms. But being able to ignore 60% of a tanks armor is seen as perfectly fine

They can, its called armor. 10/10 lmfao

Infact, its even better than reducing ad, because it also reduces all physical damage from abilities, not only AD.

And can we not forget tabi which literally reduces all auto damage by 10% and randuins which reduces all crit damage by 10%.

EschetonMar 13, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best Wizfact EUW,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PGVXRjEJ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-13T14:23:07.054+0000)

If a tank could reduce ~~bonus~~Total AD by 25% people would be up in arms. But being able to ignore 60% of a tanks armor is seen as perfectly fine

They can, its called armor. 10/10 lmfao

Infact, its even better than reducing ad, because it also reduces all physical damage from abilities, not only AD.

Against you. Not like cleaver against everyone. Thats the point. Imagine doing less damage to the adc/jungle/mid/support because the toplaner happened to build a sunfire to waveclear.

DracocrashMar 13, 20171 votes

hi. Knights wov.

Your turn.

AMYS GRAVEMar 13, 20173 votes

Knights vow's damage reduction is for a single ally not whole team, Your turn.

DracocrashMar 13, 20171 votes

um no. Its damage reduction is against the whole enemy team for one ally on your team.

Also generally black cleaver is only for one enemy, unless you can quickly proc AOE physical DOT damage before the stacks fall off, which is virtually impossible in a game situation.

Also lets not forget the existence of frozen heart, which reduces attack speed (and by definition DPS of auto attackers)

Your turn.

AMYS GRAVEMar 14, 20171 votes

for one ally on your team.

right, knights vow is damage reduction on one ally, black cleaver stacks amp damage on the whole team....

DracocrashMar 14, 20171 votes

can you actually successfully completely stack black cleaver on more than 1 enemy at a time?

(hint: 99% of the time in a real game thats note gonna happen)

AMYS GRAVEMar 14, 20171 votes

Why is getting it fully stacked the bar we are using? You don't have to get full stacks on every enemy champion in order to be problematic in the current metagame. A stack or two is quite enough to allow your allies to be dealing effectively true damage in enough circumstances to matter.

NarsicusMar 13, 20171 votes

There is a reason that Exhaust is considered an amazing mastery, it does exactly this.

Also: Frozen Heart, Redemption, Locket, Face of the Mountain, Knight's Vow, etc. There are a lot of options to make allies more difficult to kill, many of them are picked quite often because helping an ally survive is, unsurprisingly, really really powerful. Aegis of the Legion was picked in every game ever for a reason after all.

I guess I just don't understand how people think there are no defensive options, there are plenty. And, ironically, believing that lethality makes armor useless and therefore buying no armor plays straight into the enemies hands because lethality builds are worse at killing tanky opponents than crit builds, this is the major trade off that people have to consider when they start their damage builds early on.

MizayaMar 13, 20172 votes

Then besides Fiora, no one is going to be buying that item much.

The item is as strong as it is because of champions like Renekton. Renekton is tanky enough to run into your team and reduce everyone's armor. It's not comparable to armor pen which is single target.

Variks the LoyalMar 13, 20171 votes

He's not going to reduce everyone's armor by the full 30%, though.

He'll hit, 1, maybe two people with E, and then, if he's lucky, he'll hit 4 people with his Q. His W and AAs will ensure one target has the 30% reduction, but 1), it will most likely be a squishy, so it won't do much, and 2), the rest of the enemies will just have 5 or 10% reduction.

Champions like Renekton aren't a problem. The squishies building BC are the problem.

Irelia BotMar 13, 20171 votes

Some champs have a much easier time then others applying the full armor reduction.

A Darius getting a single Q off on 3 enemies would result in all 3 having the full 30% reduction a few seconds later due to his passive.

Variks the LoyalMar 13, 20171 votes

How often does Darius hit 3 people with one Q, though? I feel like the majority of teams in solo queue are skilled enough to see it coming and dodge or kite, unless the Darius is really fed.

MizayaMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He's not going to reduce everyone's armor by the full 30%, though.

He'll hit, 1, maybe two people with E, and then, if he's lucky, he'll hit 4 people with his Q. His W and AAs will ensure one target has the 30% reduction, but 1), it will most likely be a squishy, so it won't do much, and 2), the rest of the enemies will just have 5 or 10% reduction.

Champions like Renekton aren't a problem. The squishies building BC are the problem.

Don't forget about hydra

Also who do you mean by squishes

Variks the LoyalMar 13, 20171 votes

Hydra isn't likely to hit everyone in a teamfight, it might hit one extra person if they position badly.

Squishies mean, like, ADCs, Mages, squishy supports, carries; Renekton lends himself to bursting down a single target with his combos during teamfights.

MizayaMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hydra isn't likely to hit everyone in a teamfight, it might hit one extra person if they position badly.

Squishies mean, like, ADCs, Mages, squishy supports, carries; Renekton lends himself to bursting down a single target with his combos during teamfights.

I wouldn't say that squishies are the problem anymore then because mf suppor t isn't going to be played much anymore. The top 10 champs people are building BC on are fighter type champions, assassins, and Jayce.

Also people might be less encouraged to play tanks because fiora pickrate is extremely high now.

Edge of DaybreakMar 13, 20172 votes

My problem with armor and armor pen is that we have to tone down both but no one wants to tone down armor. Tanks reduce your damage to them by way over 25% if you have no pen built every time I see a rammus or malphite with 300+ armor on top of 3k or more health I think wow this would be impossible to deal with as an ad champion unless I built every armor pen item.

It would be nice to have armor not be shredded to hell but when a person builds any reasonable amount of armor it basically reduces your physical damage to shit unless you snag lots of pen because no one pen item is enough especially when lethality takes 3 items + half your run page just to hit 70 now.

No amount of riot nerfing cleaver but keeping it somewhat decent is going to stop everyone from buying it because on 30% armor pen is huge on top of the other stats. Just to speak from an ad assassins perspective if you want CDR your only real options for it are yoummus, lucidity boots, and cleaver.

Basically tone down both stats because armor is more or less forcing pen to be ridiculous. That or somehow lock down the pen items so you can't get all 5 of them but make it so they are more effective at their individual jobs.

Irelia BotMar 13, 20171 votes

I am not in complete disagreement that armor on it's own might be too strong but it is hard to tell in the games current state.

EschetonMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

My problem with armor and armor pen is that we have to tone down both but no one wants to tone down armor. Tanks reduce your damage to them by way over 25% if you have no pen built every time I see a rammus or malphite with 300+ armor on top of 3k or more health I think wow this would be impossible to deal with as an ad champion unless I built every armor pen item.

It would be nice to have armor not be shredded to hell but when a person builds any reasonable amount of armor it basically reduces your physical damage to shit unless you snag lots of pen because no one pen item is enough especially when lethality takes 3 items + half your run page just to hit 70 now.

No amount of riot nerfing cleaver but keeping it somewhat decent is going to stop everyone from buying it because on 30% armor pen is huge on top of the other stats. Just to speak from an ad assassins perspective if you want CDR your only real options for it are yoummus, lucidity boots, and cleaver.

Basically tone down both stats because armor is more or less forcing pen to be ridiculous. That or somehow lock down the pen items so you can't get all 5 of them but make it so they are more effective at their individual jobs.

Isn't that the point tho? Malphite and Rammus basically exist to punish full ad teams. Thats why you mix up the damage types. You get an ap top/mid/jungle/carry support to deal with those champs. Ya know, teamgame and all. Pros and cons etc etc.

AirKingNeoMar 13, 20172 votes

The problem is flat pen applying after percent pen instead of the other way around.

Irelia BotMar 13, 20173 votes

That would be part of a solution since it would make tanks having more bonus armor than the amount of Lethality an attacker has at least always have their base armor in tact.

Edge of DaybreakMar 13, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PGVXRjEJ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-03-13T03:55:51.970+0000)

That would be part of a solution since it would make tanks having more bonus armor than the amount of Lethality an attacker has at least always have their base armor in tact.

You just gave me an idea. What if lethality checked to see if the targets bonus armor was higher than their base armor? Then based on that lethality was either half effective against that target or say completely nullified against that target. My logic is that if you build a strong enough armor shield lethality which is meant to be effective against low to no armor targets wouldn't be able to penetrate your defenses. While most squishies would still fall victim to it as they usually don't build more than 1 armor item. You could still build every pen item if you wanted too but tanks would be slightly tankier and squishies would still die about the same as they do now.

RevaliMar 13, 20171 votes

I really enjoy building something like item 3033 item 3071 on illaoi namely for the purpose of the huge aoe grievous wounds and to help crush enemy frontliners faster

MrHaZeYoMar 13, 20171 votes

Thank you, I've been saying this for awhile.

Tychusfindlay919Mar 13, 20171 votes

Only auto attacks? Not without giving cleaver juggernauts a HUUUUGE compensation buff.

agbudarMar 14, 20171 votes

hey what do you know a tank item that reduces someone's ad? now that i would drool over as a tank

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