Who'd have thought an ultra-mobile assassin would have game health difficulties

Talamare·Feb 10, 2015·5 votes·806 views

Who would have thought ...

(consider them when they were at their strongest, not their current form)

21 Comments

Leblancs BoobFeb 10, 20156 votes

TF is a mobile assassin?

TalamareFeb 10, 20153 votes

{quoted}

TF is a mobile assassin?

Again... At his strongest, he was the most mobile assassin in the game He had a non-ultimate really REALLY short cooldown global teleport, it didn't matter where you went, or where you tried to hide

HE WOULD FIND YOU AND HE WOULD KILL YOU

MrPerson10Feb 10, 20152 votes

4th AA Yellow card + AA + Q + AA melts your carry after an R in, or better positioning allowing you to R out.

Troy242621Feb 10, 20152 votes

Shaco just needs some mana cost reductions to be in a really fair spot, to be fair.

67chromeFeb 10, 20152 votes

(consider them when they were at their strongest, not their current form)

Just about every champion was game-breaking at some point. Mordekaiser, Urgot, Yorick, and Heimerdinger were significantly worse for game health than a lot of assassins at their strongest as well.

Mr SlowdeathFeb 11, 20152 votes

I don't understand the point of this thread. The quote you've used to title the thread is blatantly ironic. What's the message you're trying to send?

TalamareFeb 10, 20151 votes

Shaco was absolute broken insanity at his strongest

MrPerson10Feb 10, 20151 votes

Still broken-ish.

Troy242621Feb 10, 20152 votes

You can make any champion in the game absolutely broken just by cranking up the numbers, that has no bearing on how well designed they are.

Besides, I can make a list of broken bruisers/mages when they were first released as well. Do I even need to bring up the likes of Xin Zhao? That doesn't mean we shouldn't have bruisers or mages, does it?

My point is, you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here, and all of these had issues other than sheer mobility contributing to why they were an issue. Mobile assassins aren't un-fixable as you're implying.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbFeb 10, 20151 votes

Shaco and nidalee are both strong atm, and they're both awful to play against. Nidalee clears jungle so fast it doesn't damage her, and shaco is one of the few champs that can jungle since his boxes can tank and deal a lot of damage.

Troy242621Feb 10, 20153 votes

Time to open up the flood gates, because I DON'T think Shaco is un-fun to play against. It's a lot more interesting to deal with him than it is the likes of Lee Sin/Vi, because Shaco has dynamic gameplay and defined strengths/weaknesses whereas these two are simply generalists that simply do everything in the jungle role well with no exploitable weaknesses.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbFeb 10, 20151 votes

Shaco is unfun to play against when he exclusively counterjungles. There is nothing fun about having to rely on your team to ward your jungle because there's a shaco going where he pleases. While he falls off for lategame teamfights, he still has massive split push potential because of his clone and escape. There's nothing fun about having a shaco in the game.

Again though, he's very strong right now thanks to the jungle changes. There's substantial statistical proof of this. http://champion.gg/champion/Shaco His winrate spiked massively when the new jungle went in. Nothing in his kit has been changed in a while, but the current jungle is very kind to him compared to other champions which allows his early game to be heavily abused.

Troy242621Feb 10, 20152 votes

Let's see. A champion that can counterjungle, always escapes and you need your team because he can't be dueled. Who have I heard of that does that and allegedly "Falls off late game," before, I wonder?,....

LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin LeeSin

Well, I guess since I can't think of one, it must be an assassin-only problem, and despite all of Shaco's counterplay, he's the #1 culprit. I'm sure that the other champion I can't think of must have been nerfed by now, though, seeming as you're complaining about Shaco and not him.

EDIT: I see you've added him, but that doesn't make me any happier about Shaco being thrown in there for no reason >.>.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbFeb 10, 20151 votes

Lee sin can be dueled though. Ever since his cripple got nerfed, actually. Lee Sin is less frustrating than shaco in terms of escape because you can see where he's going. That allows for easy chase if you have the capability. Lee also isn't a split push machine. Statistically, Lee Sin is also below 50% win rate, implying that he's less powerful than perceived. Personally, I find lee much easier to deal with because he doesn't stealth. It's easy to guess when his ult is coming, but if shaco shows up at one of your buffs after you clear it when you are low, there's little you can do about it. Again though, 53.93% win rate vs 47.32% win rate. You want to argue that lee sin is op, and shaco isn't? Nothing falls off like a shut down jungler.

Troy242621Feb 11, 20152 votes

I had a long post but I'll shorten it.

Shaco Q has a mana cost over most ultimates and Shaco revolves around escaping. For Lee Sin, escape capacity is just gravy, and he has a knockback, two dashes and an AoE slow with a shield.
Lee doesn't split push because he can teamfight instead. SPing as Shaco is from lack of better options and it uses his key strength, escaping and fighting on his own terms.
Want to discuss stats eh? Their validity has been scrutinized for many debates, but I'll take a shot at it. Compare the pick rate of Shaco and Lee Sin for the past 3 seasons in every level of play up to and including competitive and professional play. Then compare their ban rates.
Lee sin invades all the f*cking time, and Shaco is predictable. He'll start blue and jump the wall to your red. Knowing that, pick a jungler than can start red, do your red regardless or keep it warded and warn your team to the impending Shaco steal.
Lee Sin doesn't fall off, Shaco does by default and needs kills and farm to negate this. Shaco has almost exclusively damage, Lee Sin has a sh*tload of CC and utility to fall back on.
Stealth isn't problematic to decent players. Reveal him, use game sense, use a pink trinket or the revealing trinket or Hell play Lee Sin.
Dueling Shaco isn't hard if you don't plow through his boxes using your face. Avoiding them which he will likely place in predictable spots in the buff bush effectively negates one of his two skills he'll have at level 2.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I had a long post but I'll shorten it.

Shaco Q has a mana cost over most ultimates and Shaco revolves around escaping. For Lee Sin, escape capacity is just gravy, and he has a knockback, two dashes and an AoE slow with a shield.

Mana cost is not nearly as relevant when he has a blue buff, 90/80/70/60/50, which will refund a good portion of the mana by the time he breaks stealth for an ability that blinks, stealths, and gives him a free crit out of stealth. He needs to use it once to get the jump on you early, and it's basically free late game. You argument here is crap, as most champs with mana pay similar amounts to this on at least 1 of their most useful utility abilities as well. Many ults have had their costs outright removed, but those that haven't often have large costs, accelerating costs, or just high per use costs.

Lee doesn't split push because he can teamfight instead. SPing as Shaco is from lack of better options and it uses his key strength, escaping and fighting on his own terms.

Lee's teamgame isn't all that strong. His contributions are to jump in and kick someone out. You know who's better at that? Blitzcrank. Shaco, on the other hand has all the tools to split push well. Most top laners that do it need wards to catch people coming so they have time to get out. Shaco gets out for free. Shaco applies his pressure in a different way than lee, and that's fine, but punishing a split pushing shaco is one of the most frustrating things you ever have to do. To top it off, his tower damage when he ults is extremely high, and he still 1v1s very well thanks to his ult.

Want to discuss stats eh? Their validity has been scrutinized for many debates, but I'll take a shot at it. Compare the pick rate of Shaco and Lee Sin for the past 3 seasons in every level of play up to and including competitive and professional play. Then compare their ban rates.

Pick rate is an awful fallacy outside of it being so low that you can't get reliable statistics off of it. The fact is, if there's a lee sin on the enemy team, my odds of winning are higher than if there's a shaco. Shaco is picked in 6.5% of games, which isn't high, but it still gives him a higher pick rate than the majority of champions. If I compare swain, he is known as a huge lane bully, there's little debate that if swain gets a kill before 6, that the lane is over and swain may have well won the game. He's only played about 2% of the time.

Additionally, LCS play and solo queue are different. Leblanc isn't as useful in solo queue, but she's still powerful in LCS. The reason for this is that they play with practiced coordination and with specific team comps in mind. Solo queue picks whatever. Amumu was really strong in solo queue in season 4, but unused in LCS, aside from 1? game that he lost. They are playing a different game, and what works there and for us doesn't necessarily overlap.

Lee sin invades all the f*cking time, and Shaco is predictable. He'll start blue and jump the wall to your red. Knowing that, pick a jungler than can start red, do your red regardless or keep it warded and warn your team to the impending Shaco steal.

Lee Sin is much more committed to invades if he tries. I've also had shacos start red and invade my blue when I start red. The simple fact is that it's harder to ward shaco out of your jungle because there's more places he can enter through. Teams should know that the shaco is coming, and yet, surprisingly, getting players to organize in solo queue is a lot harder than you make it out to be.

Lee Sin doesn't fall off, Shaco does by default and needs kills and farm to negate this. Shaco has almost exclusively damage, Lee Sin has a sh*tload of CC and utility to fall back on.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shaco http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle Observe the win rates by game time graph. Shaco rises again past 35 minutes. Could this be that one of his actual strengths is split pushing? I'm guessing so. Lee Sin has to choose between damage and going tanky. Late game, he doesn't get both. If he goes damage, he gets blown up in team fights, but if he goes tanky, he's reduced to his utility.

Stealth isn't problematic to decent players. Reveal him, use game sense, use a pink trinket or the revealing trinket or Hell play Lee Sin.

Pink wards are not accessible for the first clear of the jungle to deal with shaco. Jungler gold is already tight, and buying a pink ward instead of my jungle item is downright stupid, and insisting that I need to pick x champ to counter shaco is also crap, because having counters doesn't discount a champ from being too good, and being one of a small number of jungle champs that can reveal stealth does not fix the issue of shaco abusing and jungler that struggles with their first clear.

Then there's this argument that stealth doesn't work against decent players. I've seen this with skill shots too. Good players simultaneously never miss, yet never get hit by skill shots. This is simply not true. Good players know how to deal with the stealth usage of lower level players, however better players know how to better utilize the mechanic against people who know how to deal with the basics.

TalamareFeb 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Time to open up the flood gates, because I DON'T think Shaco is un-fun to play against. It's a lot more interesting to deal with him than it is the likes of Lee Sin/Vi, because Shaco has dynamic gameplay and defined strengths/weaknesses whereas these two are simply generalists that simply do everything in the jungle role well with no exploitable weaknesses.

Shaco now has been nerfed enough that he can be handled fairly well, but at his strongest he was pure brutality with insanely low cooldown Q and extreme duration W

Not to mention his E made you miss and was a strong permaslow. Oh and his ultimate stacked aura's including sunfire cape

Troy242621Feb 10, 20152 votes

Oh we're going back that far? One of your posts even mentioned beta Twisted Fate FFS. What are you even trying to say, that mobile assassins shouldn't exist, or are you just complaining about designs that Riot has already changed?