I love how everyone is complaining about ADCs

Elohaven··2 votes·979 views

Yet isn't realizing the true issue of why ADCs are so strong right now.

Note: Read the entire post and give a counterargument. Thanks for reading.

Edit: Thanks to the dicussion, some more suggestions have been made. Remove shiv+RFC stack to indirectly buff towers. Remove the sustain in the precision tree. Perhaps it's better to move it to resolve. ADCs shouldn't gain lifesteal from anything else other than fleet footwork in the precision tree.

You're probably going to instantly downvote this, but w/e. As an ADC main and secondary top-laner, I know the feeling to both sides of the same coin.

Here's what people are currently saying:

"XX ADC is OP. Remove their kit because it's broken. Etc."

Vayne and Xayah are not OP. These are the two I've been seeing getting some focus now. If they were, S7 would have them banned 24/7. Yet, they weren't. Why? They're balanced and still are. Their kits ARE FINE. I find it too frequent people use meta shifts to try to completely nerf X champ. Yasuo, Fizz, Zed, etc. Really it's itemization.Anyways, if ADCs are fine with their kits, how come they're so strong?

(TL;DR my argument is that it's not the kits that are broken but the runes and itemization issues we always had)

Let's first take a look at why their kits aren't the issue.

Before preseason, Vayne and Xayah were balanced. Let's use Xayah.

She's immobile, squishy, and easy to catch if you position away from her feathers. Her only way to avoid hard CC and damage is her ultimate and a planned out E. Without her feathers spread out from a few auto-attacks, she's free food.

Vayne's only good part is the fact she shreds tanks with her W and her R let's her kite. Without her R, she's basically useless as she has no abilities that extend her range, prone to poke, must usually fight arms-length at melees, and is a skirmisher meant for outplays. She has been weak S7 and required much scaling.

These two only got online at 30-35 minutes due to the amount of time it took to gain items. They were always, like any other ADC, strong at 3 items. One damage, and two attack speed items.(IE, Shiv, Berserkers)

My statement is true. But now they're OP? Care to explain why?

We have runes and bad itemization. I made a post before, but it was disagreed with on this point below. However seeing how people are now pointing these points out again, I'll state them again. The game is too much of a snowball. It's easy to gain a lead and gold. Triumph is broken with the extra gold and bruisers/juggernauts are not getting fair items to compensate for the major buffs ADCs got.

ADC is the hardest role in the game. It's so reliant now, people focus on you, and it's a game-determiner. People saying ADCs should not have kiting potential in their kits do not know how to balance this situation. Remove an ADCs kiting potential or a major reason that plays to the identity of their kit, and you should basically just be saying to delete/rework said champion. (Because then you'd need to buff supports and tanks to peel for the ADCs which leads to power creep like with ardent)

(Seriously, I find it horrid people say Xayah's E is broken)

ZEAL ITEMS ARE CURRENTLY AN ISSUE WITH THE GOLD GAIN IN GAMES.

With triumph and these huge snowballs, ADCs easily gain access to zeal items. As an ADC main, I agree it's stupid you can get a zeal item at 10 minutes. 2600 gold is too cheap. When I recommended to increase the gold requirement to 3200 for zeal items, the response was with disagreement. Granted it was the first or second day of preseason, but it's one of the best ways to keep ADCs in check. They will get online at around 35 minutes then. It would be 9800 gold to get their three core items rather than 8600.

We all know this is the true issue. Need more evidence? Compare a top-laners 7-item cost to an ADCs. Much more expensive. (LDR is 2600. Really? All zeals 2600 gold. Really?)

If you look at my match history, you'd notice my games are either absolute snowballs usually or complete defeats with no comebacks.

These bounty hunter bonuses coupled with the ease of gold now and the weakness of towers is insane. 150 gold on assists, triumph, tower gold(and towers are easy to shred), kills, and runes like klepto do create a strong increase in gold gain.

In addition, PTA is still a really strong rune. It makes it easy to cheese in botlane. (PTA proc + Sona enhanced auto + your enhanced auto from Sona = 70% chunk of ADC hp)

TL;DR

It's not that ADCs are OP. It's that they get online much faster now due to the new runes. Increase tower defenses, increase minion HP slightly, increase zeal item costs.

19 Comments

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

Yet isn't realizing the true issue of why ADCs are so strong right now.

because completed zeal items only cost 2600 gold.

item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 = 8600 gold.

item 3089 item 3165 item 3135 = 9350 gold

item 3071 item 3742 item 3053 = 9100 gold

item 3147 item 3142 item 3812 = 9300 gold

marksmen are designed around cubic scaling, where they will eventually outscale other types of carries in damage over the course of the game.

the fact that their core itemization is cheaper than everybody elses comparable itemization means, that they power spike faster off the same amount of gold, and other champions will basically never be able to catch up.

and i was being generous here. you could replace the cleaver with a triforce depending on the bruiser and that 3 item build would become 700 gold more expensive.

Elohaven1 votes

Read my post

Kythers3 votes

{quoted}

Read my post

Where do you think we are? https://puu.sh/ytUV4/abcdb907cd.png

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Read my post

the mistake youre making is assuming that adc were fine before preseason, when they were already busted throughout the entirety of season 7 and a lot of season 6.

when an adc wasnt meta it was usually because another adc beat them in lane.

vayne wasnt an issue before preseason? really? might want to watch some of those crit 1 shot montages from a couple month ago.

theyre all a problem (more than usual) for almost two whole years now imo.

AirKingNeo2 votes

(TL;DR my argument is that it's not the kits that are broken but the runes and itemization issues we always had)

Please read the fucking post at a minimum. He did say it was an itemization issue.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Please read the fucking post at a minimum. He did say it was an itemization issue.

he also said that they became too strong with the preseason changes.

im just saying they have been way too strong for much longer. yes, theyre hitting their power spikes too early, but not because of the new runes.

i think its really item and kit issues.

Elohaven1 votes

If it were those two, then they should have been OP before pre-season. It's simple statistics and cause-effect. The moment runes reforged came out, a huge power disparity appeared. There's a clear correlation.

Elohaven1 votes

Those one shot crit montages were all with fed Vaynes and squishies who were severely behind. You can look at the score/KDA. Vayne's WR was sitting at 49-51% before preseason. Caitlyn and Draven destroyed her. They still do with PTA but Vayne's spike is now stronger than theirs since PTA+Max W chunks them.

Kythers4 votes

ADCs are op when their team play around them properly

This never fucking happens in Solo queue before diamond so I'm not sure how people think they are op

HarrowR2 votes

Thats what ive been wondering,most people are probably bellow plat too,i can only imagine how games look for an adc in lower elo,its probably a nightmare,everyone oneshotting you and your bard supp is in the enemy jungle chasing meeps

FireDrizzle2 votes

Infinity edge and Essence reaver are also too cheap.

AirKingNeo1 votes

No, Essence Reaver is just too overstat.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Xayah's kit is not fine. Her ult needs to lay down less feathers so she can't ult+E to nuke people. Her W shouldn't give 20% bonus damage (should be 10%), making her Crit (with IE) autos have a 3.0 AD ratio. Her E should deal less damage and have a longer cooldown (or nerf Essence Reaver's CDR).

Elohaven1 votes

I agree with the W damage but the whole point of her E and ultimate is for you to back off. Her E is her primary source of damage too.

AirKingNeo2 votes

but the whole point of her E and ultimate is for you to back off.

What if I told you that it's too effective? And that if it dropped 4 feathers you'd still back off for being rooted, and not being nuked.

Her E is her primary source of damage too.

She's an ADC. She has autos.

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

Vayne and Xayah are not OP.

random assumption

These are the two I've been seeing getting some focus now. If they were, S7 would have them banned 24/7. Yet, they weren't. Why? They're balanced and still are.

Again, an assumption. What about other adc's are broken as hell as well , and though these are broken they are less concerns, but as soon as the other broken adc's get nerfed, people realise they're broken?

Their kits ARE FINE.

Assumption

Before preseason, Vayne and Xayah were balanced. Let's use Xayah. cough assumption ONCE AGAIN cough

She's immobile, squishy, and easy to catch if you position away from her feathers. Her only way to avoid hard CC and damage is her ultimate and a planned out E. Without her feathers spread out from a few auto-attacks, she's free food.

Assuming she's retarded yeah. But she's ranged and has both an untargetability and a snare. The free food here is the guy trying to kill her. He gets CC'ed, can not kill her and dies to her powerful autoattacks. and "planned E" my ass, she ults and then she got a guaranteed snare afterwhile.

Vayne's only good part is the fact she shreds tanks with her W and her R let's her kite. Without her R, she's basically useless as she has no abilities that extend her range, prone to poke, must usually fight arms-length at melees, and is a skirmisher meant for outplays. She has been weak S7 and required much scaling.

Uhm if her only strength is tankbusting, why is every complaint back then about Vayne's scaling with crit damage? Her Q critting and almost oneshotting. Her W just makes so she doesn't need dominiks but that's basically it, the problem with her right now is her squishy bursting potential.

These two only got online at 30-35 minutes due to the amount of time it took to gain items. They were always, like any other ADC, strong at 3 items. One damage, and two attack speed items.(IE, Shiv, Berserkers)

Well, we're finally going to the interesting part, thank god.

My statement is true. But now they're OP? Care to explain why?

WTF, why would you ever say "my statement is true", it's basically like saying "shut up I'm right I don't need any arguments".

We have runes and bad itemization. I made a post before, but it was disagreed with on this point below. However seeing how people are now pointing these points out again, I'll state them again. The game is too much of a snowball. It's easy to gain a lead and gold. Triumph is broken with the extra gold and bruisers/juggernauts are not getting fair items to compensate for the major buffs ADCs got.

this is true, yet there are a lot of things that make adc broken

ADC is the hardest role in the game. It's so reliant now, people focus on you, and it's a game-determiner.

fapfapfap

People saying ADCs should not have kiting potential in their kits do not know how to balance this situation.

Assumption. What do you know of them? Maybe they do.

Remove an ADCs kiting potential or a major reason that plays to the identity of their kit, and you should basically just be saying to delete/rework said champion. (Because then you'd need to buff supports and tanks to peel for the ADCs which leads to power creep like with ardent)

No, please no. Giving everything to an adc is retarded. Adc's having too much selfpeel is absolutely disgusting to face. And it's even worse considering they'res till gonna have a support to help peel them no matter what. And there is NO NEED WHATSOEVER to buff supports/tanks to peel adc's. ADC's don't need to be strong. We've been through 7 seasons of ADC's being 100% picked every game. They can have a short escape all right, but Xayah has too much safety.

(Seriously, I find it horrid people say Xayah's E is broken)

no comment

ZEAL ITEMS ARE CURRENTLY AN ISSUE WITH THE GOLD GAIN IN GAMES.

With triumph and these huge snowballs, ADCs easily gain access to zeal items. As an ADC main, I agree it's stupid you can get a zeal item at 10 minutes. 2600 gold is too cheap. When I recommended to increase the gold requirement to 3200 for zeal items, the response was with disagreement. Granted it was the first or second day of preseason, but it's one of the best ways to keep ADCs in check. They will get online at around 35 minutes then. It would be 9800 gold to get their three core items rather than 8600.

I agree. Maybe they also give too much %crit.

We all know this is the true issue. Need more evidence? Compare a top-laners 7-item cost to an ADCs. Much more expensive. (LDR is 2600. Really? All zeals 2600 gold. Really?)

If you look at my match history, you'd notice my games are either absolute snowballs usually or complete defeats with no comebacks.

These bounty hunter bonuses coupled with the ease of gold now and the weakness of towers is insane. 150 gold on assists, triumph, tower gold(and towers are easy to shred), kills, and runes like klepto do create a strong increase in gold gain.

In addition, PTA is still a really strong rune. It makes it easy to cheese in botlane. (PTA proc + Sona enhanced auto + your enhanced auto from Sona = 70% chunk of ADC hp)

TL;DR

It's not that ADCs are OP. It's that they get online much faster now due to the new runes. Increase tower defenses, increase minion HP slightly, increase zeal item costs.

I don't think it's the only issue. Botlane being overpowered is the result of a large series of changes :

  • buff to base stats a few seasons ago, before they were cheese-able earlygame with really low HP early.
  • several reworks just outright powercreeping them (Kog'maw, Corki, Caitlyn, etc.)
  • reworking of CC to be biased towards melee. No more point&click CC for a bunch of champions, numerous skillshot CC less efficient with how far the opponent is, making indirectly ranged champions way safer than they used to.
  • itemization & runes, you said it
  • tower first blood & tower gold granting is really high and as adc's are usually the best tower takers early-midgame they snowball hard on that
  • supports buff. When your supp is stronger, you're better protected. So you're indirectly stronger
  • delaying of assassins kits. That makes the counterplay possible, which usually makes ADC's be able to lifesteal generously and be granted a bunch of shields so they're much harder to deal with.

ADC's are just too safe. And it has to do with their kits as well. In a world where we have old Leblanc, old Rengar, old Veigar killing people in 0.2 seconds, maybe it would have been fine for Xayah to have the kit she has, now with how hard it is to get to her, that's just stupid. And in old seasons, adc's getting oneshot wasn't a problem. They could build defensive items, it was fine. It was even healthy, as it reduced their lategame damage scaling. They couldn't afford to get a 100% crit + almost max AS, tons of AD and % arpen. That was a trollbuild, they'd get oneshot. Well maybe they should have to buy more defense. But yet again we fall to the too good itemization where you can get defensive/ offensive items with all the stats you ever dreamed of, like item 3026 item 3139 Honestly, ADC's don't need to feel powerful to do their job. They used to feel weak as shit, yet they were still picked every game. That says something, to how essential they are.

Rebonack2 votes

I'm still of the opinion that Marksmen shouldn't be able to opt into more burst/waveclear (item 3085 item 3087 ). That should be something you get from the kit you pick in champion select, not a weakness that items should be covering for you. And this coming from a Kog one-trick.

HarrowR1 votes

They are strong,but not broken or OP,you still need those 3 items,in comparison zed can get duskblade first item and stomp everyone,i had so many games where i got fed with an immobile adc and couldnt carry cause my support was never around or dying and i was just instakilled by the enemy kha,rengar,jarvan,zed etc. Most adcs are at a very low win rate,look at cait,kalista,lucian,jhin. Others are very team reliant,like kog or ashe,and one bad move can get you killed. I agree some melees and mages could use a slight buff,raising an AS item price that is useless on its own to 3200 would be just plain trolling,and would bring back lethality adcs,yomuus rushing and duskblade. I do suggest that adc power gets shifted to skillshots,like ez,who is busted rn yes,but is usually in a balanced state and cant right click you to death like twitch can,which after 7-8 years of being an Adc main kinda got stale,there should be more adcs like Graves was,that could hold their own in a duel vs other classes but whose short range and reliance on abilities means they cant melt tanks like maw. Tl:dr make adcs into ad casters

Azadethe1 votes

I think the community generally agrees with you. They just dumb it down by saying "adcs are OP" because that's something everyone who reads can understand.

When the game got away from adcs HAVING to build sustain and instead supplementing sustain into Runes/Masteries, that's where adc went wrong. In Seasons 4-5, adcs, generally had to build life steal, and 2 or so items of it. In late season 6/7 That changed with Warlord's. Suddenly adc's figured out they could go full crit and no sustain items, and survive, as long as they were good orbers. Damage shot through the roof while good adc's never died.

Now, we have several runes which attribute to sustain, so nothing's really changed in regard to adcs being able to itemize full crit/attack speed: Fleet Footwork is the new Warlord's except it's also a move speed burst. Ravenous Hunger applies to all damage across the board (some good, some bad.... probably going to lead to a Karma rework since she no longer has to tether to heal), Taste of Blood's good in laning and for decent heals every 20 sec, Triumph is more powerful than the equivalents have ever been, and if you need more sustain, Legend: bloodline.

There's no end to heals now, so an ADC can freely just go Crit/Attack speed, rather than having to choose between the two.

(I'm not knocking sustain; mages needed it back bad. But on carries stacking heals is dangerous; perhaps discriminate different heal rates vs phys/magic damage)

And yeah. if Riot wants to embrace the Zeal meta, they could increase prices. But they could also make it so Rapid Fire Cannon and Statik Shiv don't stack...... (would help tone down about 60% of the worrisome adcs), which in itself would make turrets tougher (RFC allows Shiv to damage turrets).

More from Gameplay

More by Elohaven