I feel like Riot's most consistent balance issue is forgetting every champion can buy every item.

Bern··5 votes·663 views

summoner 11 top with item 3717 ; duo top with Relic Shield, at the release of preseason 4 changes; the recent BoRK changes benefitting champs like Shyvana as much as Vayne and Kog'Maw. These are all symptoms of a single issue. It keeps happening: Riot targets a line of new items at a specific role, or targets a set of champions with a change to a preexisting item, and havoc ensues when other champions can make effective use of the new item, or benefit equally (or more) from the balance changes to the preexisting item. I honestly believe this is the most consistent issue plaguing Riot's attempts to balance the game.

On a related note, I also feel like Riot often makes item changes in a vacuum without paying attention to -everyone- who buys those items, or the purpose those items actually serve.

  • For example, the item 3071 change is honestly a nightmare on that front, since it's a lot less desirable on almost every previous buyer of the item that isn't Garen or Wukong. (Assassins/AD caster carries like Zed, Talon, Jayce, and Riven are hung out to dry with this change, and so are junglers like Jarvan and Vi who liked brutalizer but weren't good at stacking BC on a single target.)

  • Furthermore, rather than caring about the actual state of the game, I feel like Riot tends to force some ideal vision of the game down our throats that's just irrelevant to how the game actually plays, and this is never more obvious than with some of the bizarre item changes Riot imagines up to address problems no one actually thinks exists (thank god the Muramana changes never went through).

The idea of changes to item 3001 (which are apparently coming soon, with the consideration of it being a "sister item to BC") scare me for all these reasons -- sure, a lot of AP mids are now putting it into their builds as a defensive option for their second item, but that isn't necessarily bad, and the game doesn't -need- a BC-like item for AP, either. I think all changing abyssal will do is screw over the champions that actually like it (such as Diana , who is honestly more of an assassin than a bruiser) while leaving the champs that build it as an optional second item (like LeBlanc, Lissandra, etc.) at no real loss since they already have other great buildpaths with more damage available to them. Every time Riot announces item changes at this point, I'm clutching my metaphorical pearls in horror, because they tend to fail to address real problems (moving crit off IE), create new problems (release Feral Flare), or address real problems far too well (Cinderhulk).

Welp, this ended up having a lot of text on not my primary point. Ooops. >_>

14 Comments

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

when it comes to bc i feel like the issue is somewhere else

the thing is that this is a game about burst, fast actions and reflexes, ofc i dont like it being that way but riot holds the stick

and now they introduce an item that usualy takes around 6 seconds to become fully effective on one target, but we dont get such long trades in teamfights anymore, not so late ago even tanks didnt survive for so long (now there is cinderhulk), so how do you expect one to make this thing worthwhile when you need to chase one guy for 6 seconds with it while all hell breaks lose around you

the item is made well, and the change is good for its role, the thing is that its role was killed by riot beforehand , so now the items is even more useless, the only real fix that does not involwe killing the item's purpose is changing the game

besides that i agree, riot tries to do something else than they should -with many ballance changes they try to kill too many birds with one stone (i loved the kassa nerfs, we will nerf him but keep him op at the same time ... thats basicaly what they wanted) -with some they just miss (azir's lane bullying got nerfed, oh wait it was evertything else) -and then comes the stuff you listed

Raptamei2 votes

This is why talents in HotS are so much better than items.

Vistha Kai1 votes

That's exactly what I was wondering yesterday.

You can't change items to fit champions. You need to change champions to fit items. Otherwise you get a mess not balance.

Example, DFG. Was suppose to be a tank killer, but most proficient users were AP burst champions that sole intention was to make sure enemy carries are send to the base in a bag. It got removed, Luden's Echo was added in its place. Whom it benefits the most? Same exact champions that were using DFG. Except it's now AoE instead of single target burst.

If you want to give a specific class of champions some power you influence them directly, not give them an item half other champions will use to get same or better results.

You'd think Riot learned something after S3 DFG Ahri.

Brotha1 votes

item 3071 is a fucking godsend for Jayce after those hypercharge nerfs. Not only has it increased HIS damage but his utility in a tank meta where your adc benefits from armor shred. At Max rank R a good Jayce can shred that troublesome Sejuani/Amumu/Rammus/Gragas/Volibear armor by 65%. Keep in mind you and an Adc should be rocking a last whisper by late game so if you swapped to cannon and proc your passive + hypercharge in 2.5 seconds you have shredded the enemy tanks armor by 50% + the 30% armor you ignore with Last Whisper.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Viktor quivers in fear. No armor runes shall save him now.

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

item 3071 is a fucking godsend for Jayce after those hypercharge nerfs. Not only has it increased HIS damage but his utility in a tank meta where your adc benefits from armor shred. At Max rank R a good Jayce can shred that troublesome Sejuani/Amumu/Rammus/Gragas/Volibear armor by 65%. Keep in mind you and an Adc should be rocking a last whisper by late game so if you swapped to cannon and proc your passive + hypercharge in 2.5 seconds you have shredded the enemy tanks armor by 50% + the 30% armor you ignore with Last Whisper.

While Jayce can add Cleaver stacks kind of fast with w autos, new cleaver does very little for Jayce. The buildpath is weak on him; %ar shred stacks multiplicatively, and not additively, so r and cleaver don't benefit from each other as much as you'd think; and Jayce maxes r -last- in a lot of situations, meaning he won't he get large %shred you're talking about until very late; and Jayce doesn't apply cleaver very well AoE, which is pretty important for a potential buyer of the item. Furthermore, the 20% CDR on new cleaver actually would tend to put Jayce over the CDR cap, since he tends to take Ionians and a brut, making that CDR overkill (by 5 to 10%, depending on your preferred Jayce masteries). And finally, new cleaver does little to supplement his poke game, since it has 20% less AD than the previous cleaver and no flat pen.

It's not good on Jayce. You could just be buying items that give actual amounts of pen (ghostblade, LW) or actual amounts of ad (BT, ER, IE) with your gold instead.

Brotha1 votes

{quoted}

It's not good on Jayce. You could just be buying items that give actual amounts of pen (ghostblade, LW) or actual amounts of ad (BT, ER, IE) with your gold instead.

Black Cleaver is not a replacement for LW, it is used to compliment it. Ghostblade offers extra mobility, but its very lackluster on him. Only time I would build Ghostblade is if I want to stomp early game and try to snowball hard. For my playstyle as a lategame carry, I would never waste an item slot on it. Thankfully with the BC buffs you get all the CDR you need early, plus a movement speed buff on autoing. Also regardless of how much armor pen you stack, once late game begins your E+Q combo falls off. This is where your W steroid becomes your primary source of damage. While you're correct in saying most Jayce's wont be able to stack that much armor shredding prior to level 18, you're still shredding a fair amount of their armor which will increase your adc's dmg. As much as I loved the Crit build on Jayce, IE is no longer an optimal build path due to the W nerf. You're better using an armor shred build with some sustain. You'll still be able assassinate an out of position carry, while offering decent poke for sieging. Jayce has always been a late game champ, and I play him as such.

My Jayce core build:

item 3275 item 3043 item 3072 item 3071 item 3035

Typically swapping between item 3143 item 3078 item 3102 item 3156 item 3139 Depending on the enemy team comp and what's needed.

Lucentile1 votes

This is why, for a lot of my early LOL career, supports couldn't have nice things.

BluePolarizer1 votes

item 3071 is amazing on Pantheon . He needs the additional CDR and tankiness, while Phage is a great item for him to buy to snowball lane because he can kill minions, run up to you with fast MS, and spear you, whereas before opponents can deny his snowballing by playing safe; no longer. You can't even zone yourself anymore unless you stand at turret once he has a Tiamat and Phage.

Talon never got cleaver as 1st Brutalizer item. It was always Youmuus and cleaver late game, but cleaver was inferior to IE. Now cleaver is a legit replacement for IE on Talon due to how it offers so much safety, burst and even sustained damage (through CDR) on him.

Bern1 votes

{quoted}

item 3071 is amazing on Pantheon . He needs the additional CDR and tankiness, while Phage is a great item for him to buy to snowball lane because he can kill minions, run up to you with fast MS, and spear you, whereas before opponents can deny his snowballing by playing safe; no longer. You can't even zone yourself anymore unless you stand at turret once he has a Tiamat and Phage.

Talon never got cleaver as 1st Brutalizer item. It was always Youmuus and cleaver late game, but cleaver was inferior to IE. Now cleaver is a legit replacement for IE on Talon due to how it offers so much safety, burst and even sustained damage (through CDR) on him.

Never said anything about Panth. I'd say it's okay -- but not great -- on him. I'd actually consider buying it.

Talon situationally got youmuu's or cleaver with his first brut, iirc, and not always one or the other. Re: your arguments:

  • Cleaver HP doesn't give much to Talon without resistances (he's still going to get deleted if he's locked up). This means Talon is likely to die in a teamfight before he can make use of the additional CDR you said is good on him, even if he kills his target. Because of this, Cleaver doesn't really afford additional safety or sustained DPS.
  • Stacking % shred only (new cleaver, 40 AD and % shred only) will always provide worse burst than flat pen with more AD (old cleaver, 50 AD, flat pen) because you do more damage upfront with flat pen, whereas the % shred needs time to add up to get damage out of it.
  • Talon was already capable of fast-stacking cleaver AoE; the difference is that now, he gets less damage from the item (because having only %pen is worse on the squishies he wants to kill, and all his ratios are bonus AD -- new cleaver has less of it).
Lost R1 votes

The new Black Cleaver is a godsend for certain champions, particularly those with mobility issues, and a nice pick for supports and tanks that'll be whaling on the enemy with basic attacks most of the time. Darius can better stick to enemy combatants with more natural mobility than him, and especially Olaf, who lacks the pull Darius has and relies much on his basic attacks. My only issue with it is it might have too much going for it, between 30% armor shred, +400 HP, 20% cooldown and the effect of Phage. Granted, it's nice to see that Phage is getting some attention so you don't feel obligated to build a Triforce to gain its benefit. It's a nice unique passive, but the Triforce itself isn't particularly useful on most of the champions that covet the Phage (read: Olaf).

On a related note, I also feel like Riot often makes item changes in a vacuum without paying attention to -everyone- who buys those items, or the purpose those items actually serve.

Believe it or not, Riot can't predict everything that the community can and will do. They can guess all they want and their QA can try to think as far outside the box as physically possible, but in the end, you have to throw something out there and see how people react to it. If Riot and the QA team are vanilla ice cream, then the community is all of Baskin-Robbins.

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