The zyra buffs completely miss her issues.

manbearswine··13 votes·1,452 views

I mean don't get me wrong,these aren't small buffs,and I'm sure those who actually bother playing her appreciate them,also her winrate will probably jump to 54%-55%,but they completely fail to address her actual problems.

If I were to rate zyra's problems(not weaknesses),focusing on support(as her winrate is high there sigh):

  1. She can't lane against competent opponents,poke/sustain supports outtrade her,competent tanks who understand how squishy she is just walk all over her,and there is really nothing she can do if they start roaming,you don't feel outplayed when losing to these guys(though this is more prevalent in higher elos),you feel like you couldn't do shit,and I would say this is the biggest factor behind her low pickrate(as lower elos can still see this,just not as clearly).
  2. She is very ineffective against mobility,and assassins,now before you tell me they are supposed to be her weakness,zyra is supposed to be a counter-engage champion,assassins should beat her by out rotating her and forcing skirmishes,that's both true and fair,they however should not beat her by jumping at her/her team and ignoring her abilities with their mobility,that's both unfair and nonsensical,and is another big factor for why people don't play her.
  3. People refuse to understand there are more to strength than winrates,and that everyone is aware of them already,stop constantly bringing them up,we already know what they are.

To be clear I'm not saying we should remove her weaknesses,her intended(as a zone control mage/support/whatever) weaknesses should be to:

  1. Poke comps: zyra is counter-engage oriented,they don't seek to engage,and they do counter her well right now.
  2. Split push/roam/skirmishes/pick offs-zyra rotates slowly and has heavy aoe,she doesn't want small fights,to be split or caught off.

The current changes don't even try to deal with these issues,they instead buff her aoe delayed knockup,which is going to be good at low elos and much less relevant in higher elos/competitive play,so what will likely happen is:

  1. Winrate will probably jump to 54%-55%.
  2. Will still be seen as a shit pick in competitive/high elos,so her pickrate will only increase slightly,and lower elos won't play her because pros don't play her.

Finally,I will end with this note: If you want zyra to be counter-engage oriented,she's going to need to be able to threaten high mobility divers,she doesn't do that.

P.S: Oh I almost forgot,spellthiefs line is kinda shit,is tied to a notable extent with her laning,but there's more to her laning being bad than that.

22 Comments

Narasimha6 votes

Honestly, as a Zyra main, the only issue I've consistently had is her plant AI. Fixing that is a major buff to her.

Salidfingers1 votes

^ this.

Even in mid lane the plant AI will help

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, as a Zyra main, the only issue I've consistently had is her plant AI. Fixing that is a major buff to her.

So why do you think her pickrate is so low? Why do you think she sees no competitive play?

And don't throw the "sheep argument",it's just false,soraka is good in solo q,and her pickrate rises in higher elos,pros aren't locked on picks either,hell we've seen support trundle/shen from them,so that one just isn't true.

I mean that problem is clearly there,at least I am trying to say what it is,whereas you just claim something which is obviously there to not exist,if zyra only had minor plant ai issues she would've been played nonetheless,if riot thought her issue was only plant ai they wouldn't buff her ult so hard.

Narasimha2 votes

So why do you think her pickrate is so low? Why do you think she sees no competitive play?

Because she's not flashy, she takes effort to use, and there are better options.

if zyra only had minor plant ai issues she would've been played nonetheless,if riot thought her issue was only plant ai they wouldn't buff her ult so hard.

Her ai issues are far from minor, and a 50% increase on her ultimate is nice, but not exactly a major buff.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Because she's not flashy, she takes effort to use, and there are better options.

In contrast to soraka? And what exactly is "better options"? Champions in this game bring different things to the table,what exactly make other "options" better? The fact they actually can lane? The fact they can roam? The fact they can actually hinder assassins?

Her ai issues are far from minor,

Definitely minor,people brought it completely out of proportion because that was easy to get upvoted,it was the same logic as the ashe passive complaints,"complain about something which will get upvoted until you actually get meaningful buffs".

and a 50% increase on her ultimate is nice, but not exactly a major buff.

0.5 sec cc is BIG,especially with the aoe it has(obviously better in lower elos,but still).

Narasimha1 votes

In contrast to soraka?

A global heal is pretty damn noticeable. It gets EVERYONE's attention, even the opposing teams.

And what exactly is "better options"? Champions in this game bring different things to the table,what exactly make other "options" better?

For support, Zyra is typically picked for her combination of cc, poke, and counterengage. In this regard Nami is generally a better pick, since she provides all of the above, along with a heal and a steroid. Morganna is also a stronger contender.

For mid lane, Zyra is chosen for her cc and her poke. Lissandra provides greater strengths in those areas, as does Orianna.

Definitely minor,people brought it completely out of proportion because that was easy to get upvoted,it was the same logic as the ashe passive complaints,"complain about something which will get upvoted until you actually get meaningful buffs".

Easy upvotes include but are not limited to: "Nerf Vayne", "Nerf Riven", "Nerf Ahri", "Nerf Devo", and "Funny Gif #52341". There aren't enough Zyra mains to make it worth farming for upvotes. Zyra's plant issues are considerable. It makes the difference between a plant doing damage, and a plant deciding to take a break because gods know why.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

A global heal is pretty damn noticeable. It gets EVERYONE's attention, even the opposing teams.

How is that flashy? And doesn't zyra ult get everyones attention as well?

For support, Zyra is typically picked for her combination of cc, poke, and counterengage. In this regard Nami is generally a better pick, since she provides all of the above, along with a heal and a steroid. Morganna is also a stronger contender.

I wouldn't call namis E a steroid,as it's only for 3 auto attacks,and zyra brings a lot more damage than nami does. But nami can actually lane,zyra can't,morg also can roam very effectively,and also can lane.

For mid lane, Zyra is chosen for her cc and her poke. Lissandra provides greater strengths in those areas, as does Orianna.

Yes but zyra provides more,lissandra is much more single target focused,and orianna is wombo combo focused.

Easy upvotes include but are not limited to: "Nerf Vayne", "Nerf Riven", "Nerf Ahri", "Nerf Devo", and "Funny Gif #52341". There aren't enough Zyra mains to make it worth farming for upvotes. Zyra's plant issues are considerable. It makes the difference between a plant doing damage, and a plant deciding to take a break because gods know why.

This isn't about farming upvotes of zyra mains,if you talk about an ability being clunky even people who don't play the champions will upvote(I know I do for champions I don't play),but start talking about something like straight up buffs and people are less eager to upvote,if it's for a champion with a high winrate,it's nearly impossible.

Silents4295 votes

I think the criticism should wait until you see it in game.

We're fixing bugs with her plant AI as well -- the kind that lead to plants idling enemies nearby or continuing to attacking a unit when she had basic attacked another.

The buff to Zyra's ult is to solidify her role as a potent counter-engage champion. If you dive into Zyra's team, you'd better be extremely fast acting or you're liable to be CC'd for 3.25 seconds. SmashGizmo's in charge of the change, but I think it matches her strategic identity well.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

I think the criticism should wait until you see it in game.

Some of us have played enough zyra to know where these changes would put her.

I've said the previous nerfs would shove her into never being picked/played,competitive or otherwise,and now I'm saying that these changes will change nothing.

I get it that silver/bronze don't want to believe others can actually understand game mechanics and implications of small changes before them going live,but this is still the case.

It's a sad cycle,me and other high elo support mains keep saying nothing will change,bronze/silver tell us "just wait",and champions remain obscure picks for years as a result,I don't need to wait for these changes to go live to undestand that her weakness against roam,tanks,poke/supports and assassins will still prevent her from being a serious pick in higher levels of play.

Silents4293 votes

And other mains say this is what she needs for better mid lane viability. You aren't exactly swinging favor of the other mains.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

And other mains say this is what she needs for better mid lane viability. You aren't exactly swinging favor of the other mains.

I haven't seen a single mid lane zyra main say that she needed a longer duration on her ult for that,in fact most of them seem angry this suggests her main role as a support.

Aside from that,I don't really expect the lower elos to understand her problems as clearly as higher elos do,that's always the case.

Silents4293 votes

You skipped over the plant AI getting improvements which were a big thing requested from mid lane Zyra players.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

You skipped over the plant AI getting improvements which were a big thing requested from mid lane Zyra players.

They were requested by zyra players in general,but no,plant ai is a minor thing,you think it was requested because those threads/posts(like any bug threads/posts) got upvoted easily,whereas those asking for straight up buffs often got downvoted(cause muh winrate),plat ai was a minor change.

Silents4291 votes

Yeah.

That's what it is.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

she does not have any issues (except you want her to have no weaknesses at all) - with this buffs she´ll get nerfed pretty soon after.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PBr8qoEp,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-09-03T16:24:16.381+0000)

she does not have any issues (except you want her to have no weaknesses at all) - with this buffs she´ll get nerfed pretty soon after.

topkek

Abyssphere3 votes

You seriously think the Zyra changes don't address any of her issues? You don't think her kit not actually functioning half the time via horrendous AI is the single biggest issue she has?

Stranglethorns buff may not be what anyone was asking for but don't pretend the AI change wasn't essential. Before anything else, her plants needed to be fixed.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

You seriously think the Zyra changes don't address any of her issues? You don't think her kit not actually functioning half the time via horrendous AI is the single biggest issue she has?

No,first and formost because this is a severe exaggeration,they had some minor issues so they got some minor fixes(even the red replies say so),and secondly this won't help her at all against roam or tank support,will slightly help her vs poke/sustain supports but they will still outtrade her.

UPfreely2 votes

they should probably reduce the delay on ult and maybe make E a bit wider and/or start at 1sec cc.

5050BS1 votes

{quoted}

they should probably reduce the delay on ult and maybe make E a bit wider and/or start at 1sec cc.

This is soo ture. The delay on damage for her ult means champs that can dash get out of it before it does any damage (basically 50% of all champs)

Saianna1 votes

To be honest I think that going so far making weird names for simple support/tank/adc/jungler, like:

zyra is supposed to be a counter-engage champion

I know that's the thing she should excell at, but... It's just counterproductive to create hundreds of sub names...

IMHO shortly Zyra needs: Better AI on plants. Obviously. A way to actually make melee plants usefull. (Maybe they'd debuff target lowering his damage by 10%?) Just something. Plants health to increase with time, cause in lategame they survive slightly longer than sona after meeting Riven in 1v1.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

To be honest I think that going so far making weird names for simple support/tank/adc/jungler, like:

I know that's the thing she should excell at, but... It's just counterproductive to create hundreds of sub names...

IMHO shortly Zyra needs: Better AI on plants. Obviously. A way to actually make melee plants usefull. (Maybe they'd debuff target lowering his damage by 10%?) Just something. Plants health to increase with time, cause in lategame they survive slightly longer than sona after meeting Riven in 1v1.

Counter-engage has always been her thing though.

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