Towers are reducing toplanes importance

FireDrizzle·Jun 12, 2018·16 votes·8,643 views

First tower down is almost always botlane for obvious reasons and if your team is losing it doesnt matter if you are winning top, you just get dove over and over because the tower does no damage.

23 Comments

Madsin25Jun 12, 20184 votes

They need to get rid of towers giving first tower gold or buff their damage.

As it stands right now it's like killing a cannon minion for 500g.

Daddy AntsJun 12, 20183 votes

{quoted}

First tower down is almost always botlane for obvious reasons and if your team is losing it doesnt matter if you are winning top, you just get dove over and over because the tower does no damage.

Here's my ideas on what could be changed -

T1 Turrets either need significantly more HP or Bot Lane T1 needs Fortification returned.
Turrets should not ramp up their damage, they should do their maximum damage immediately.
Turrets need to do True Damage. Tanks should not be able to sit under a turret for a minute + and survive.
Armor and Magic Penetration needs to not work vs Towers.

Inhibitor Turrets in all lanes need the laser back

LIGHTNING ROD - (Removed on patch V6.22) Tower beam 75% armor penetration Unique Passive - Lightning Rod: Deals damage in a continuous beam and cannot be dodged. Deals up to 125% additional damage the longer it targets the same target. With every hit, the beam gains 6 heat until 120 heat is reached. When the beam switches targets, heat is reset. Gains +1.05% damage per point of heat, up to a maximum of +125% extra damage.

Shit like this should NOT be possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbRiYV5SBAI

I'm aware it's 2017 LCS but Turret Damage hasn't been changed much since then.

Back in 5.23 Turrets had 4,000 HP.

Now Turrets have 3600 T1 and 3300 everything else.

Hèntaî Jun 12, 20182 votes

Im all for this, they should also make towers stronger depending on the tier. Like T1 towers are weaker than T2, then Inhib, then Nexus. Imo it should get a little harder to push down a lane as you progress.

Yets4240Jun 12, 20181 votes

Turrets need to do True Damage. Tanks should not be able to sit under a turret for a minute + and survive.

I was sort of with you until this part. FUCK NO

What do you actually fucking want tanks to do, if they can't even goddamn tank towers?

Why should squishy damage classes take the same amount of damage from a tower as a dedicated tank with a fully defensive build? How the unholy fuck does that make any sense? Armor is already pure fucking garbage and worthless against 90% of the roster due to current armor pen/reduction (they will always have a BC, so there goes 24% of your armor, then LW penetrates 35% of what you have left, so over half of all armor is useless even to pure physical damage) not to mention the fucktons of true damage that have already been recently added into the game. Shit, if you want you can be doing over a third of your damage out put in true damage with a rune and IE. This game needs defensive stats, particularly armor to matter A LOT FUCKING MORE, AND NOT, IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, NOR FORM ANY LESS and needs the rampant over-saturation of true damage to get right the fuck out of here.

Bob the ToastrJun 13, 20181 votes

I agree with you that the turrets shouldn't do true damage, however tanks shouldn't be able to tank for that long.

Turrets need significantly higher damage to everyone, with possibly faster ramping and a higher cap on ramping.

Yets4240Jun 13, 20181 votes

Higher damage to everyone in a proportionate way though, not disproportionately towards the people who by every right should be taking the absolute least amount of damage from the tower.

Bob the ToastrJun 13, 20182 votes

Not to mention Nexus turrets are now down to 2700.

Literally no one was asking for turret nerfs. Thanks rito.

nelogisJun 12, 20181 votes

I wouldn't fiddle around with tower damage (especially when it comes to increasing it) but rather change the time a champion needs to tank the tower before leaving it with a successful dive.

Whether that be increasing defense or decreasing damage is up to discussion.

Maybe also reducing the importance of getting the FB Tower might solve this issue.

Or making it harder to kill bot lane tower (with upping bot tower resistance pre 10 min from like 0% to 30%, top/mid towers have 50% for comparison) or making it so the more people hitting a tower the less damage it takes with a mechanic like "tower gains 10% damage reduction per champion around with a base damage reduction of 30%"

Of course this would also go away after 10 mins like the regular buff.

Edit: Either way I don't think this is the main problem of top lane at the moment but rather a sympton of the early game importance of the game itself that has risen up by quite a lot.

Top doesn't have much early game impact as other lanes, which wasn't a problem back when games lasted around 35 - 45mins (with laning phases up to 20mins in some cases) on average but now when the early game is the most important phase of the game, top lane for sure feels less impactful than other lanes.

We shouldn't fiddle around with towers that much, it would only FORCE top (or other lanes in that regard) to be more impactful. Basically a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

Irelia BotJun 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't fiddle around with tower damage (especially when it comes to increasing it) but rather change the time a champion needs to tank the tower before leaving it with a successful dive.

Whether that be increasing defense or decreasing damage is up to discussion.

Maybe also reducing the importance of getting the FB Tower might solve this issue.

Or making it harder to kill bot lane tower (with upping bot tower resistance pre 10 min from like 0% to 30%, top/mid towers have 50% for comparison) or making it so the more people hitting a tower the less damage it takes with a mechanic like "tower gains 10% damage reduction per champion around with a base damage reduction of 30%"

Of course this would also go away after 10 mins like the regular buff.

Edit: Either way I don't think this is the main problem of top lane at the moment but rather a sympton of the early game importance of the game itself that has risen up by quite a lot.

Top doesn't have much early game impact as other lanes, which wasn't a problem back when games lasted around 35 - 45mins (with laning phases up to 20mins in some cases) on average but now when the early game is the most important phase of the game, top lane for sure feels less impactful than other lanes.

We shouldn't fiddle around with towers that much, it would only FORCE top (or other lanes in that regard) to be more impactful. Basically a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

Or halve the tower damage but double the fire rate making it target an enemy champ faster and ramp up damage faster..

nelogisJun 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P9m41AuA,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-06-12T14:36:07.867+0000)

Or halve the tower damage but double the fire rate making it target an enemy champ faster and ramp up damage faster..

But then the DPS is the exact same? The damage increase isn't a flat value it's a % increase.

The only thing this would do is fuck up farming under turret, unless you want to change the increase to flat damage. Which then I guess yeah it would help but it comes at the huge cost of not being able to farm under turret at all since minion damage by tower is also coded with %. Melee minions will always need 3 turret shots to die doesn't matter if they have 10 HP or 10 million HP

"well then just change that too"

I think at that point there is a better alternative to this problem, way too many variables are going to get changed that could lead to even bigger collateral damage than we would think.

Edit: I forgot that this would make poking an enemy under turret harder. If this is needed or not, I don't know.

Double Edit: I fucked up muh quick maffs, the increase will spike faster than now but starting and end-DPS would be the same. My bad.

Irelia BotJun 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

But then the DPS is the exact same? The damage increase isn't a flat value it's a % increase.

The only thing this would do is fuck up farming under turret, unless you want to change the increase to flat damage. Which then I guess yeah it would help but it comes at the huge cost of not being able to farm under turret at all since minion damage by tower is also coded with %. Melee minions will always need 3 turret shots to die doesn't matter if they have 10 HP or 10 million HP

"well then just change that too"

I think at that point there is a better alternative to this problem, way too many variables are going to get changed that could lead to even bigger collateral damage than we would think.

Edit: I forgot that this would make poking an enemy under turret harder. If this is needed or not, I don't know.

Double Edit: I fucked up muh quick maffs, the increase will spike faster than now but starting and end-DPS would be the same. My bad.

It is and is not.

The first turret shot on a target is not the same as the 3rd in damage done due to it ramping up.

TegashJun 12, 20181 votes

Maybe they should just put the 5-minute damage shield back on bot turret instead of making it a big juicy target.

It also has the least health and armor of the three frontier turrets.

KarunamonJun 12, 20181 votes

But muh lane swaps!

Muh LC$ PRO PLAY$!

TegashJun 13, 20181 votes

Not how it works actually.

LCS laneswapped BEFORE the changes to turret. Riot made bot turret weak to disincentivize one team's botlane from simply leaving to look for prey in other lanes if their matchup was bad.

Riot keeps adding to the volatility of the game to try and provoke pros into playing riskier, but of course that won't work because they're pros, and they know a more volatile environment needs you to play safer.

nelogisJun 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=P9m41AuA,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-12T14:57:19.000+0000)

It is and is not.

The first turret shot on a target is not the same as the 3rd in damage done due to it ramping up.

Yeah but let's say you define a ramp-stage as "x"

Then the DPS of 3x of the slow tower will be the exact same as 3x of the fast tower.

The difference being that the fast tower will reach 3x double as fast as the slow tower but once both have reached 3x, the DPS will be the exact same.

FireDrizzleJun 12, 20181 votes

"I wouldn't fiddle around with tower damage (especially when it comes to increasing it) but rather change the time a champion needs to tank the tower before leaving it with a successful dive." Towers should attack more quickly so avoiding 1 tower shot isnt as impactful and they should scale or atleast become stronger around more enemies.

"Or making it harder to kill bot lane tower (with upping bot tower resistance pre 10 min from like 0% to 30%, top/mid towers have 50% for comparison) or making it so the more people hitting a tower the less damage it takes with a mechanic like "tower gains 10% damage reduction per champion around with a base damage reduction of 30%" " Riot want botlane tower weaker for lcs so it will remain weaker than solo towers. If it isnt Yorick or Mordekaiser top, bot can be easier to take simply for the reason bot is a duo lane so you can have 2 attacking tower instead of 1 or 3 instead of 2.

nelogisJun 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

"I wouldn't fiddle around with tower damage (especially when it comes to increasing it) but rather change the time a champion needs to tank the tower before leaving it with a successful dive." Towers should attack more quickly so avoiding 1 tower shot isnt as impactful and they should scale or atleast become stronger around more enemies.

"Or making it harder to kill bot lane tower (with upping bot tower resistance pre 10 min from like 0% to 30%, top/mid towers have 50% for comparison) or making it so the more people hitting a tower the less damage it takes with a mechanic like "tower gains 10% damage reduction per champion around with a base damage reduction of 30%" " Riot want botlane tower weaker for lcs so it will remain weaker than solo towers. If it isnt Yorick or Mordekaiser top, bot can be easier to take simply for the reason bot is a duo lane so you can have 2 attacking tower instead of 1 or 3 instead of 2.

Towers should attack more quickly so avoiding 1 tower shot isnt as impactful and they should scale or atleast become stronger around more enemies.

That would mess up farming under turret and put scaling laners / people who farm poorly under turret further out of the meta and enforce the "push the wave 24/7" even harder. We are trying to remove that playstyle.

Stronger when more enemies are around? I don't know, the shots already increase in power when you tank too long (thats why increasing the time to dive would be the more logical thing to do IMO instead of the tower bursting someone when too many people are around).

Riot want botlane tower weaker for lcs so it will remain weaker than solo towers. If it isnt Yorick or Mordekaiser top, bot can be easier to take simply for the reason bot is a duo lane so you can have 2 attacking tower instead of 1 or 3 instead of 2.

Yeah I know why it got reduced, you can still slap a -20% damage reduction to bot with the same mechanic giving a net buff of 30% which gets upped to 40% if the jungler is there.

But again I wouldn't fiddle around with towers too much.

Edit: By the way I don't get notified when you reply like that, just click the "reply" button at the bottom of a comment to reply to it, don't remove the auto generated text.

Meep ManJun 12, 20181 votes

They really need to add Fortification to Bot Lane. I’m not sure why it’s not there.

DakeudharmaJun 12, 20181 votes

Well what about you could give items to towers ? I think this way tower problem can be solved since if they are on default they are either strong or weak. But now they would be just as strong as team made them .

GinormousVnerJun 12, 20181 votes

When I miss a cs, it reduces top lanes importance
When I die 1v1 in top lane it reduces top lanes importance
When I ignore the plethora of top lane champions with great win rates in favor of my 22% win rate Riven, it reduces top lanes importance
When I keep pubstomping the top lane Singed in lane and refuse to match his TP plays which in effect result in the other lanes snowballing in his favor, it reduces top lanes importance
When I play like shit and I need something to blame, I** reduce top lanes importance**