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Jungle and Ward Item Ideas. Hopefully Riot see this. If not, just my opinion please don't hate.

Rain NT··6 votes·898 views

Explanation I was watching one of stonewall's youtube videos one day when he was talking about how flawed the jungle items had become after riot had made some changes to them. And by the end of this thread I will be talking about my ideas of the changes on ward items/sight stone.

In the video, stonewall explained that all jungle item should have 2 separate identities for 3 different groups (AD, AP, Tanks). With 3 different starting items which can be build into the same "jungle" item. Within the video he explains this, but I just want to go more in-dept because I think its a great idea. To go forward with his idea as the base, I want to see how the community/riot will think about them.

For example (explained within his video): First of all I just want to say that poacher is useless when we already have trailblazer(which help clear faster when counterjungling) and skirmisher(help fight in the enemy jungle). Unless poacher increase the smite damage on monsters as well then poacher is basically fall inferior compared to the other smite upgrade in terms of counter jungling.

I remade this entire post to clean it up a bit and made it easier to navigate.

By the way if anyone want to check out my other ideas, here is the link : http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JOl0EJG2-nashor-tooth-essense-reaver-rank-game-structure-changes-i-think-may-help-just-my-opinion .

**READ THROUGH ALL THE ITEM STATS AND INFORMATION THOROUGHLY ** Note: My ideas are similiar but different from stonewall's (the video above).

Spirit Stone Rebirth

Spirit Stone: Cost: 400 (built from - nothing) Stat: 15+ gold upon killing large monster. Unique Passive: Against monsters, deal 10% bonus damage and restore 5% of damage dealt as health and 3% as mana.

Upgraded Smite (Spirit Stone): Cost: 850 (built from Spirit Stone) Stat: 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - Against monsters, deal 10% bonus damage and restore 5% of damage dealt as health and 3% as mana. Deal an X amount of damage (base on x %AP) on hit and reduce non ultimate spells by 0.5 per autoattacks.

Magus: Cost: 2250 (built from Upgraded Smite+Fiendex Condex) Stat: 80AP 20%CDR 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - Against monsters, deal 20% bonus damage and restore 6% of damage dealt as health and 5% as mana. Deal an X amount of damage (base on x %AP) on hit and reduce all spells by 1 per autoattacks.

Runeglaive: Cost: 2250 (built from Upgraded Smite+Sheen) Stat: 55AP 10%CDR 200Mana 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - Against monsters, deal 20% bonus damage and restore 6% of damage dealt as health and 5% as mana. When auto attacking a monster, deal an X amount of damage (base on X %AP) on hit and reduce non ultimate spells by 0.5 per autoattacks. After using an ability, your next basic attack deals 100% base AD + (30% AP) as bonus magic damage. And increase champion's attackspeed by 40% after proc for 2.5 seconds. Versus monsters, the empowered attack will also restore 8% of your missing mana and bonus AOE magic damage.

::: That we should bring back "Spirit Stone" as the starter for "AP junglers" { http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Stone }, that will be built into the jungle(smite) item along with hunter machete. Unlike the previous version of Spirit Stone, I say make it a stand alone item that is built from nothing. [Changed] 700g to 400g Since AP junglers needs a way to have their AA to have some kind of value to them to become decently viable_, stonewall thought of the idea to having their CD reduced per AA when hitting a monster. My idea is that every AA against monster should also deal a SMALL percentage of magic damage by off AP AND reduced the CD on spells by 0.5s per AA. This way AP jungler has a way to sustain damage while value the AA to decrease the CD on their spells (which makes their jungle clears alittle bit easier). With the reduced CD even "Tear of the Goddess" Junglers might even become more viable.

Quill Coat Rebirth

Quill Coat: Cost: 400 (built from - nothing) Stat: 15+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive: You gain 30 HP/5 and 15 MP/5 for 5 seconds whenever you take damage from a monster. Shield (120) that persist everytime champion returns to base/fountain, shield only procs/activates when attacked by an enemy champion. When shield is broken the champion recieve a 6% movement speed increase.

Upgraded Smite (Quill Coat): Cost: 850 (built from Quill Coat) Stat: 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - You gain 40 HP/5 and 25 MP/5 for 5 seconds whenever you take damage from a monster. Shield (150) that persist everytime champion returns to base/fountain, shield only procs/activates when attacked by an enemy champion. When shield is broken champion recieve a 6% movement speed increase and an AOE slow around them for 1.5 second. Every 4th auto attack against monsters deals X damage base off champion max %HP.

CinderHulk Cost: 2250 (built from Upgraded Smite+Bami's Cinder) Stat: 300HP +30% Bonus HP 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - You gain 50 HP/5 and 35 MP/5 for 5 seconds whenever you take damage from a monster. Every 4th auto attack against monsters deals X damage base off champion max %HP. Deals 15 + (0.5 × level) magic damage per second to nearby enemies. Deals 100% more damage against monsters.

Juggernaut Cost: 2250 (built from Upgraded Smite+Kindlegem) Stat: 400HP 30%Tenacity 15%CDR 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - You gain 45 HP/5 and 30 MP/5 for 5 seconds whenever you take damage from a monster. 85+ MS when not in combat (against champions). Every 4th auto attack against monsters deals X damage base off champion max %HP. Active: Place a ward for 120 seconds. Stacks of 2 charges every 185s.

::: Quill Coat will make tanks jungler more viable in the early game because their AA are insignificant { http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Quill_Coat }. Giving the tank junglers a way of sustain when being attacked over attacking. [Change] 700g - 400g. Removing the armor component and thornmail effect (because of the reduce cost), replace it with_ a shield every time the champion backs to base that can only be proc when attacked by an enemy champion and that every 4th AA will do damage base on champion MAX HP_ against monsters only. This way tank junglers are_ less prone to invasion_ while keeping decent damage to monsters with their AA when building HP. Keeping the shield UNTIL the smite item is upgraded to its final form. With these changes, tank junglers will be more viable because players have attack speed marks with tank junglers anyway which compliment the new passive. They will also have a more vary path in terms of jungle items. Suiting it to their gamestyle and game enivorment (what they are up against). Tank junglers like (tank) Udyr and Maokai would rather have the Tenacity and MS because they already clear the jungle pretty well. Or you can have Volibear who wants ALOT of HP to do more damage with CinderHulk.

Sated Devourer Changes

Sated Devourer Cost: 2250 Requirement: 20 monster stacks Stat: 50% Attackspeed 20+ On hit TRUE damage 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - Every other basic attack will trigger a phantom attack that triggers all on hit effect a second time. Deals 45 magic damage to monsters on hit over 2 seconds and gain 10 Health Regen and 5 Mana Regen per second in combat with monsters.

::: Now in general talk about jungle items, I think Sated Devourer is too strong atm, the fact that it does a total of 60 magic on hit on every AA makes it ridiculous if you add in all the other champions that can use it. I think it needs a small nerf/buff reducing the stacks to 20 so they it makes it faster for the jungle to stack them while keeping the damage minimal so its easier to handle them (40 magic damage on hit on every AA). When we have champions like Kayle, Shyvana, Udyr, Master Yi with this new item, giving them an EXTRA 30 magic damage on every AA is a bit much imo since they already have good attack speed with decent burst (not to mention they are good tank killers). Reducing it to 20 extra magic damage on every AA will help keep their damage in check while giving them have a faster powerspike. But to make it still viable against tanks, instead of 20 extra magic damage.. convert it to TRUE damage instead (unless that is too strong).

Ward Item/Sight Stone Buff

Ruby Sight Stone Cost: 2050 (build from Emerald SightStone + Ruby Crystal) Stat: 650 HP Unique Passive - Holds 6 charges and refills upon visiting the shop. Active: Consumes a charge to place a Sight Ward item. Sight Ward that reveals the surrounding area for 3 minutes. A player may only have 3 Stealth Wards on the map at one time. Active: Double right click on a Sight Ward will convert it into a Vision Ward(cost 50g per conversion, converting another sight ward will destroy the previous conversion).

Emerald SightStone The current live Ruby Sightstone.

::: I see a lot of support these days having that one item slot always being open, and they can never finish their 6th item. The reason they have to do this is because they always need space to provide the team with a pink ward. I find this absurd (wildly unreasonable), players should have the choice and pleasure of building that 6th item either to help themselves or their team. I see a way around this by having an upgrade to the Sight Stone(s). Changing it to Sight Stone - Emerald Sight Stone - Ruby Sight Stone._ Change the name of current Ruby into Emerald_ and have it upgrade into a NEW Ruby Sightstone with {stats} 650 HP Hold 6 charges of Wards and the option to upgrade a sight ward INTO a VISION ward for 450 GOLD. The way this works is when you place a sight ward down, you can double right click the ward and turn it into A VISON/PINK WARD instead FOR 50 gold per upgraded greens to pinks. Having this one called Ruby because it can place a pink ward (which is close to ruby) and emerald because you can place more green(emerald) wards. This way supports can buy a late game 6th item without worrying about not having pink wards.

The Pink Trinket will still be viable because most support goes Sweeper anyways and Top or Mid Laner can always purchase the pink trinket if they are needed instead of buying pinks for 100 gold every time.

Conclusion Well these are my thoughts on these situation, having the jungle items ideas based on the ideas of stonewall which I will include his link here and on the link above. I wonder what your (community) thoughts on these ideas and if you want to help, upvote and hopefully HOPEFULLY a rioter see this and give us their thoughts on this idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJnA8VkAsE

You guys should check out his youtube channel, he is very passionate about the role of the jungle and always have ideas to how to improve or his thoughts on the jungle each season.

19 Comments

LilxPaprika1 votes

Theres a lot of ways the ap item could be made to clear faster. I think something simple like aura that does aoe dmg to monster by % of you ap could be sufficient a bit unoriginal but gets the job done. without being op on certain champions. since cdr from AA can be really strong on select champs (skarner comes to mind).
Another example if magus had runeglaive's passive but just vs monsters no champions it would be really strong at clearing.

let me know what you think of this idea: I don't so much mind what happens to the jungle item. so if your suggestion makes sense to riot im down with it. Only problem is do we really need 6 jungle items can't we think of a less redundant method to suit everyone.

The below idea would help open up options a little. This would allow junglers to choose from among any item type once they reach mid game. won't necessarily need to try and create one item for each role that pleases everyone. while retaining jungle items as they are for those who do wish to use them.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/yvjePn04-jungle-item-balance-idea?comment=0002

{quoted}

Quick history of jungle items: Way back when, jungle didn't even have jungle items and both teams had smites that couldn't be enchanted. Then jungle items were introduced and smite had yet to be enchanted, the jungle items were budget oriented. laners might get a jungle item. like say a Talon could apply lizard elder's true dmg on his ad spells. They were not forced to get smite to equip a jungle item either. you would think they would have been more common in lane then. But at 2000 gold they were a bit underwhelming stat wise compared to alternatives. Back then you could still see someone like shaco not even bother getting machete and start doran blade and rush hydra to clear faster. (this made his early ganks really strong, hence the changes to the jungle being near impossible to clear without machete early game and the desire to force champions to get smite to buy machete)

up until now I didn't mind the idea of 1 out of 5 members of each team being down 1 summonerspell of sorts. so long as both teams were equally "handicapped". Nor do i mind giving junglers enchanted smites now. So long as the playing field is equal is all.

Now here's what happened. Up until this point smite never got enchanted, then the developers saw fit that junglers were left out sort to speak of a summoner spell of their own. Forcing laners to get smite to use a jungle item would have been a huge deterrent to use jungle item in lane were it not for the fact that smite now comes with its own enchantment(essentially a built in summoner spell).

that said, here's my idea: the real solution is to give junglers a way to sell their jungle item come mid/late game once they've cleared 30 or so camps. (thereby abandoning the enchanted smite that came in handy early game) and allow them to unlock 1 preselected summoner spell. They will also have the choice to keep the jungle item and preferably upgrade it and continue using enchanted smite. with only 1 summoner and enchanted smite. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zAjNsbtN-actual-simple-jungle-solution

so here's how it could work. once you've reached say 30 stacks in the jungle you will be notified that you can now either upgrade the jungle item or choose to sell it at no selling price penalty and receive a summoner spell. The latter will entail you no longer receiving bonus gold from the jungle however. which shouldn't be that significant at this point because the game shifts around this time towards objectives and team fights.

If you're unsure no need to makeup your mind then and there, can continue completing the rest of your build in the mean time. This would open up jungle build options wide open, no need to make duplicate items for everything in the jungle. Fiddlesticks for example would just sell a mini magus instead of upgrading it into runeglaive and use an item that suits him.

In this example you can choose to get rid of enchanted smtie and get 1 summonerspell, with a non enchanted smite. Assign a new key to it however. it could be place in slots 1 through 6. whatever you switch it with will get placed in a new slot 8.

http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapollo-na-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com%2F1436616362%2Fjunglesolution.jpg&key=f0abbd34f14549f3a15cd94dd9970851&width=150&height=150&errorUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.leagueoflegends.com%2Fapollo%2Fassets%2Fdiscussion-thumbnail-ward.png

Rain NT1 votes

I am not sure about the item change where you have to sell the jungle item. I dont think Riot will make an item just for you to sell it later on. Only problem I can see about trading items is the smite upgrade. Why cant I trade out trailblazer for skirmisher for 50 gold.. I just dont get why you have to stick to one the entire game.

I do like the idea about the aura damage base off of AP (maybe a pulsing aura instead every 2 seconds), but they are already making something like that in the PBE with the new Abysall. But you know whatever that will help AP junglers I am down. and I think its a good idea.

But yeah I dont think removing smite for a new summoner and opting to sell a jungle item will be a route riot will take. It has to be an idea Riot will keep in consideration because it matches with their own idea because then its still THEIR idea.

LilxPaprika1 votes

Its so the other team isn't thrown off by you switching them out. Particular skirmisher. Since if someone duels you think you have chilling smite when you just switched it with skirmisher. Making people have to tab and look at your items all the time is undesirable.

The aoe AP wouldn't do DMG to champions only vs jungle a bit like how machete works.

But yeah I dont think removing smite for a new summoner and opting to sell a jungle item will be a route riot will take. It has to >be an idea Riot will keep in consideration because it matches with their own idea because then its still THEIR idea.

Honestly where do you draw the line as to what idea is within riots repertoire or not. I don't think it falls under something out of riots realm of options. Don't see why they couldn't do it.

Edit: also don't think its within riots own interest to restrict themselves, got to keep innovative look outside the box

I think this whole jungle mess is in part attributable to their desire to stick with a shaky foundation. I wouldn't mind going back to drawing board, but mostly in time for next season, close this one out but keep us posted on plans for upcoming season.

Rain NT2 votes

True say, honestly if they can make any kind of changes I will be happy because atm the jungle just isnt that balance in terms of diversity imo.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

I feel like a universal CDR reduction on auto attack would be ridiculous on a lot of champions as well, and not even the meta junglers.

AP champions with high sustain will have infinite sustain with little investment, and still have decently fast clears. Champions like Malzahar or Zyra would never have to back because they get all the health sustain they need from their spells, and they can infinitely sustain them too.

AP champions that can clear fast will be unparalleled in clear speeds, unless they rely on rapid spellcasts. Like Brand already has some of the fastest clear speeds in the entire game despite not having much power in his auto attacks, and with CDR every auto attack he would be significantly faster than any other champion in the entire game.

And note that I'm not even using meta AP junglers as examples here! The meta AP junglers would have completely changed viability in the jungle with the new jungle item, the most alarming being Fiddlesticks, where his high sustain isn't good anymore because so many champions would have similar sustain and faster clears. This new itemization would be a much bigger nerf to Fiddlesticks than the release of Runeglaive because he can't compete with a new wave of AP junglers that can do what he can, but better.

Rain NT1 votes

Well there will be some champions that will be able to use this effectively, but thats the whole point to increase the champion pool in the jungle that are AP. But the thing is even if most champion like brand that can clear the jungle fast already, his CD are relatively long and he is still squishy with no gap closer and is really prone to counter jungle. It has a clear trade off, unless the AP jungler is completely viable it wont be played as often. Maybe Malz and Zyra might come into play but its not completely certain.

With Fiddlestick is different because he can easily sustain in the jungle have a good way of engaging and a fear that last forever and silence if he is getting counterjungled (not to mention drain outdps most champions level 1).

0.5 per AA is not much mostly when AP champions have low base attackspeed and it will just help clear because you can spam more not that the autoattack will do extremely much, it just make the champion viable.

I can honestly only name 3 decent AP junglers atm Diana Eve and Nidalee, all the rest or below subpar.. this way even if this is good buff it still won't be able to compete with the AD junglers early while making it viable to have AP junglers.

With these changes, AP Junglers still doesnt have a way to sustain themselves unless it already built in. Their aa are still not great and cant be used against champions efficiently. So they are still weak to early game counter jungling. They still have lower clear speed than AD junglers and have less sustain than AD junglers. The trade off is that they do faster clears and do meaningful damage mid game. So to do this they need to "somewhat" survive the early game. Since Magic does more late game unless youre an ADC and can build full damage, MR cost more and most champion doesnt have base MR per level built into them.

With tanks, they are still the weakest in the early game in terms of damage and most prone to counter jungling because of how slow they are at clearing. But makes up later from how tanky they become later in the game if they survive the early game. Since tanks technically do more damage because they survive longer much mean they can dish out more damage before they die or put more CC before they die/retreat. With the cinderhulk thornmail and gromp passive, its basically an ADC stopper compared to the other jungler (AD/AP). And they can survive burst damage from AP. They are the most useful in teamfight because of their peel and engage as well with decent damage.

With AD champions, as we all know they dominate the early game (Warrior route). And most of the team win the early and can either build more damage or become a bruiser and a mix of a tanky plus damage. They win most of the jungle fights and secure objective easier with the better early game. With the Sated Devourer, AD/AS champions gets to farm out and wait til they get the stacks to become strong mid game and do damage with just one item and become a tank or do more damage with more items. Ofcourse AP champions can become bruisers as well so with the new AP jungle items, AD and AP champions can be as strong as eachother.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

I'm not saying that AP junglers would be able to use this effectively. I'm saying that they would be broken if they could use it effectively.

Stonewall suggested that the Spirit Stone would restore health and mana based on magic damage dealt in addition to the cooldown reduction on auto attack, and to be honest AP junglers won't be remotely viable if there wasn't any health or mana regeneration, even for the AP junglers that are currently viable.

With that kind of iteration, most AP champions would do a full clear at level 1 in the jungle before the other jungle even clears a third camp before backing, and simply never be weaker than AD junglers early on because they can always stay a level or two above the enemy jungler, possibly staying even with the laners if they take Scuttlers.

Rain NT1 votes

Well thats easy, just change the numbers around to make it that AP jungle can't sustain forever unless they have sustain in their kite. And make sure that the item doesnt give infinite mana until later on when its upgraded into a better item but can only have sustain in the jungle. My version of it isnt exactly like Stonewall and I made sure that the numbers are much lower so no champions will become a monster, and if needed lower the numbers even more if there is a champion that does get out of control. But the long term goal of this is so that more AP champions become viable in the jungle instead 2 or 3.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

There are around a half dozen champions that are viable in the jungle right now (Fiddlesticks ,Nidalee ,Diana , Evelynn , and Ekko ). I'm not even sure all of those champions would be viable in the jungle with the new Spirit Stone, as either its numbers would have to be so low to not be abused that few champions would be able to use it or its numbers would have to be tuned so that many could use it but would have a few abuse cases that would singlehandedly define the jungle meta like Cinderhulk did during the recent tank meta.

Rain NT1 votes

Thats why it becomes a number adjustment base on how well champions do with it. If it just one or two champions that does amazingly with it they they can just adjust their number so they dont become overly powerful. And even if one champion singlehandedly become overpower just base on numbers then why arent they jungle now, if thats the case then its okay to adjust their numbers if the spirit makes them too strong. And those junglers above are the only viable AP champs so far including Kayle and Fizz. Unlike AD where there is Vi Nocturn Lee Khazix Wukong Pantheon Jarvan Xin Hecarim Yi Shyvana Udyr, theres a bunch of AD champion which are viable (and extremely viable) when it comes to AD. With Spirit Stone I'm hoping to make the AP champions stronger in the jungle early especially when its upgraded into the upgraded smite item when it recieve the AA enchantment. So not only Fiddle Nid Diana Eve Ekko Kayle Fizz but also Karthus Kass Swain AP Amumu Malphite Elise Sej Maokai Chogath will become viable depending on their team comp and situation. Even if it doesnt work completely, we (i'm hoping riot) need to think of a way to make the jungle diverse instead of one kind of jungle dominating the scene.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

I like what Stonewall is trying to do, but not the way he's trying to do it. There are a lot of problems with the items, such as:

-Spirit Stone is going to be broken on some champions in the jungle. Those that can clear fast with Machete will be unmatched in clear speeds compared to any other champion, those that had a good mix of sustain and clear speeds will have an overpowering mix of both, and those that had high sustain will be weak because they have too much sustain. Fiddlesticks in particular might be really weak because his niche of being the only mage jungler (the other meta AP junglers are assassins) is being threatened by over a dozen mages that currently have the potential for being AP junglers, but currently aren't viable either due to a lack of early game power and the lack of a strong jungle item, but would definitely be strong, if not overpowered, with the new Spirit Stone. Runeglaive already offered the potential for more AP champions in the jungle, and the only reason it didn't increase the AP jungle champion pool because Runeglaive didn't have good stats and didn't have a passive many AP champions wanted coming out of the jungle.

-Quill Coat is unnecessarily complex. Just give it it's old spike damage passive and a weaker version of it's old healing passive to keep it in line with current standards of jungle items and we'd be good to go.

Rain NT1 votes

Thats why in the comment I added my info on all the items.

Spirit Stone: Cost: 400 (built from - nothing) Stat: 15+ gold upon killing large monster. Unique Passive: Against monsters, deal 10% bonus damage and restore 5% of damage dealt as health and 3% as mana.

I reduced the damage by 20% from its original/previous version, and reduced the sustain from it as well to fall more in line with Machete.

Also.. Magus: Cost: 2250 (built from Upgraded Smite+Fiendex Condex) Stat: 80AP 20%CDR 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - Against monsters, deal 20% bonus damage and restore 6% of damage dealt as health and 5% as mana. Deal an X amount of damage (base on x %AP) on hit and reduce ALL spells by 1 per autoattacks.

So instead of 0.5s of all non ult spells, with the magus upgrade fiddle can have his ult up faster when AA. This item is made more AP centered champion like fiddle and who relies on spells and their ults to make plays.

For Quill Coat is just to help them survive early.. Quill Coat: Cost: 400 (built from - nothing) Stat: 15+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive: You gain 30 HP/5 and 15 MP/5 for 5 seconds whenever you take damage from a monster. Shield (120) that persist everytime champion returns to base/fountain, shield only procs/activates when attacked by an enemy champion. When shield is broken the champion recieve a 6% movement speed increase.

And when upgraded will have a slow when shield is broken which really help them from counter jungling and also help them when ganking a lane.

Juggernaut Cost: 2250 (built from Upgraded Smite+Kindlegem) Stat: 420HP 30%Tenacity 30+ gold upon killing a large monster. Unique Passive - You gain 45 HP/5 and 30 MP/5 for 5 seconds whenever you take damage from a monster. 85+ MS when not in combat (against champions). Every 4th auto attack against monsters deals X damage base off champion max %HP. Active: Place a ward for 120 seconds CD 180 seconds.

And for Juggernaut, instead of having a champion who wants to become super tanky and do damage. Juggernaut provide for those champions that already does damage but wants to make more plays around the map by having the MS when not in combat against CHAMPIONS. And they ward they are provided with.

Rain NT1 votes

Oh btw if anyone can tell me how they think about the sightstone changes will be great to have your opinion about it as well

Rain NT1 votes

bump

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