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The LCS level 1 lane swap/trade objective

Rain NT··15 votes·2,408 views

I dont know about the rest of the community, but I dont typically enjoy watching the first 5-8mins watching teams trade objectives. Its actually so boring, I rather see them farm and harass eachother while junglers finds angles to gank (instead of the jungler share exp with top laner and process to take the opposing teams jungle).

Like this game, used to be about skill. You go to lane, you face eachother 2v2 1v1, trying to think how to win, how to not get ganked, how to give your jungler an easier time to gank for you, all the mind games you would do to get advantages in lane. And now its just this lane swap that if you screw up once the game is basically decided. Its true too cause CLG basically win almost all their game base off lane swap cause the lower team doesnt understand how to do it.

I'm not saying to remove it from the game, but I dont like how punishing it for the lower teams. Not to mention its hard to watch, just trade, trade, trade, no farm for the top laner, top laner get denied basically everything, one gets dragons while the other side gets rift herald. And if one of them doesnt work, thats almost game half the time (by either the other team doesnt understand how to do it and ends up being overwhelmed 1v4 or get denied off everything and become 2-3levels behind their opposing matchup.

I like that the game has a lot of different strategies, but it cant be the number option. Like No. The has a healthy game structure, of 1 top mid jungle and 2 bot. And its always fun to see who can beat eachother in those matchup to see which one is better (bragging rights). I understand lane swap is good if youre countered picked. But most of the time in pick and bans, if one champ is countered the opposing team SHOULD also have one countered lane of their own being top mid or bot (or even jungle).

I'm saying lane swap should be punished more for doing it, a way for it not to be the number one option to win games.

  • Make the top lane turrets stronger, first 4mins does 200% bonus damage and all turrets top has increase resistance for the first 10mins (does more damage, harder to destroy) cause at the moment all turrets are paper thin.

  • Make the river cleared view for BOTH team for the first 1:15 of the game, so the opposing team cant try to go into the other team jungler noticed and try to place wards in deep to figure out which lane is going where.

  • MAKE ALLY MINION WALK THROUGH YOU, this will also fix a lot of the creep blocking that this game has and also make sure the lane will always push evenly early game. And of course make the minions separate their damage evenly against opposing minion wave instead of stacking on one.

This way the duo lane wont want to switch lanes because the top lane turrets will be stronger if they decide to dive, they will die. And not to mention the bot lane will trade faster cause of the resistance the top lane turret will have the first 10 mins.

Making the river open for both team the first 1:15 mins will be useful cause then you stop them from entering your jungle for free and getting wards in for information (FOR FREE). But it doesnt completely to the chances of invades because you can obviously invade after the 1:15 mark.

Make do something, I dont want to watch a LCS team get stomped anymore just because they cant lane swap as well as the other top teams.

47 Comments

Dengeden6 votes

Make the river cleared view for BOTH team for the first 1:15 of the game, so the opposing team cant try to go into the other team jungler noticed and try to place wards in deep to figure out which lane is going where.

Not necessary since the teams already ward/guard the river. And it's not like invades are bad for the game.

MAKE ALLY MINION WALK THROUGH YOU

As soon as I fall behind you can stand on top of my minions so I can't AA them? Pls no.

And of course make the minions separate their damage evenly against opposing minion wave instead of stacking on one.

They ... already do that. They just don't switch aggro if another target gets closer and their initial target isn't out of their vision. Which they shouldn't, minion aggro is a core aspect of trading in lane.

Make the top lane turrets stronger first 4mins does 200% bonus damage

This would make a lot of top lane tower dives impossible. Since the increased damage would also OS minions, pushing you into your tower early would again, be an easy way to deny CS. Furthermore, it would eliminate the possibility of lane swaps. The team with their duo lane bot lane could deny the enemy top laner as well as give theirs tower gold. Nobody would try to dodge the 2v2 anymore. And if bot lane tower got those buffs too, everyone would pick a roaming support and let their ADC farm under tower (he wouldn't be at risk).

That being said, I agree there's very little skill or risk to lane swaps. Which is undoubtedly cathartic for pro teams but boring for us.

Rain NT1 votes

I said increase damage for turret top lane only, usually top laners doesnt even get close to enemy turret til 5-7mins in since they cant dive early, not to mention usually jungle clears are finished around 3-3:20s so after 4 mins is not too long of a wait to dive. The change is made specifically to make the bot lane uninterested to go top because they wont be able to push in for the first 4 mins while the bot lane duo can. If anything removing the all whole lane swap aspect entirely because the solo top wont be able to be denied farm (which dyrus said "I can play league of legends" cause usually top laners cant play til the lane swap is finished, which is dumb) while the bot lane solo is being denied farm.

And last, the damage bonus would only work on CHAMPIONS not minions. So you cant use it as a reliable way to deny CS.

Theres already champions who can walk through minions via Fizz, Hecarim, and old PD. And it didnt stop people from denying farm.

Minion aggro is a core part of the game I agree, but it shouldnt favor a lane just because they walk into lane early and pulls all the minion aggro so that the enemy minions comes late and focus down one minion faster (which makes them push faster in favor of the person who pull aggro early) so they can freeze the lane.

They dont ward the river anymore, because most of the time they run in groups of 5 and dont spread out to get vision anymore because the risk of getting jumped on by 5 players. So both team group up and ALL invade the jungle to get deeps wards in to figure out which lane each player are going to.

Yeah man, I dont even care if these dont get implemented. I just dont want to watch this lane swap anymore.. I miss the 1v1 and 2v2 skill matchup, its lot more fun to watch.

Dengeden1 votes

Hm, the thing is, lane swaps give teams control over who gets XP/gold for the first 5-10 minutes. There is a fair bit of strategy behind that which is why Monte and Doa(?) endorsed it.

I agree that minions could be made to behave more complexly and more erratically but you merely seemed to want them to "always attack the nearest target".

Hecarim DID use that strategy and once his stupid E bug gets fixed properly, the few people who play him top lane will continue to use that strategy. Fizz is another matter because he's a wet noodle in lane when he has no kill pressure. He's either a constant kill threat or he gets poked. The old PD was bought way too late to be relevant in that sense.

They don't ward it always but they certainly stand in spots where they can spot invades (safely).

Rule 342 votes

{quoted}

As soon as I fall behind you can stand on top of my minions so I can't AA them? Pls no.

This is a bullshit counterargument for not removing minion collision. If you fall behind to the point that someone can zone you off last hits by standing on top of their own minions, they won't do that, and instead they will just zone you out of experience range entirely.

If the lane is close you won't want to take a free hit by standing on top of minions unless you intend to scrap, at which point you want them to hit the minion anyway so you get the preemptive strike and the upper hand, and then you proceed to zone them off minions and experience with your health advantage.

Dengeden1 votes

Dude, it's one AA, just because I can tank that doesn't mean I can threaten you off the wave with my kit. Not to mention that, provided someone wants to last hit with an AA, they'll draw creep aggro (because they AA'd the champion).

Rule 341 votes

{quoted}

Dude, it's one AA, just because I can tank that doesn't mean I can threaten you off the wave with my kit. Not to mention that, provided someone wants to last hit with an AA, they'll draw creep aggro (because they AA'd the champion).

If they're behind, and you aren't able to force them off the minion wave, then they aren't behind. It's as simple as that.

Dengeden1 votes

I ... what? What? Just because I can't afford to take damage from all your creeps in exchange for your AA damage, does not mean you can afford to blow your kit on me.

Slack King5 votes

Yeah even pros say that watching lcs matches is boring as shit, since its just about that RPM.

Cerebral Absence2 votes

I don't enjoy the way the lcs goes atm, too. But the way you want to solve it I don't like either... Still hoping a New tactic rises above the objective-trade-tactic and we will have more fun watching LCS :)

Rain NT1 votes

Honestly I was just in the showers trying to think of a way to fix the problem. I'll take anything, any kind of change so I dont have to watch it anymore. The moment I see the lane swap thing, I just tune out.. Its just not fun to watch trade objectives over 1v1 skill matchup.

Cerebral Absence1 votes

Totally agree, but I don't have a solution, too :( Your ideas are cool, tho! But I don't like the river vision thing and ally minion block - that would make Fizz' passive useless^^ The turret change is nice btw ;)

Lauchmelder2 votes

I hope Immortals playstyle will become the new meta. Yesterdays game against C9 was actually FUN to watch.

Rain NT1 votes

Right?! It was 1v1 mid and top and 2v2 bot and jungle pressure = a lot of kills and a lot of action. It was fun to watch

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

That's not really how it works. Immortals got a lot of kills and action because that's their playstyle and what they want to do. Reignover ganked early and often, Adrian on Braum was incredibly aggressive and got stacks onto everyone, and Wildturtle is an amazing Kalista player who goes super aggressive and picks up kills whenever he jumps in. They could have gone for a lane swap and the same thing would have happened.

Rain NT1 votes

Yeah but pretend if the game was lane swap, the first 10-15mins if they play it right, would have been 0 kills to 0 kills no matter how aggressive they were, if we are lucky maybe 2 kills in 5 mins and 6 in 15mins.

But we got 30kills under 25mins if memories serves me right. Lane swap is a risk free method if used correctly.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

No, a lane swap might have been 5 minutes of nothing until standard lanes come back and Reignover ganks, and Adrian stacks, and Turtle hops in and boom, tons of kills.

Lane swapping is a risk-free method of getting early gold. After that, people are gonna get back to normal or inverted lanes and people can fight.

Rain NT1 votes

thats what im talking about, how about lets start the action at level 2 and beyond instead of 5-7 mins after. And lets have the top laner play the game instead of being 1 or 2 levels behind.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

The action of standard laning? It's rare that normal lanes are very exciting. The literal one exception is IMT.

The top laner is behind, but equal to the other top laner. Plus, they normally get full gold from the tower, putting them back in the game.

Angry Monster2 votes

Fun is never a reason for something. At the pro level it is about efficient not fun. The fact you are using fun shows how you should not be making or contributing to this type of thread.

I will give you a logic proof that shows fun is not allowed as a reason of being.

if a statement to be logical the reason has to be applied universally. If it is not then it is not logically and is either a faulty reason or a subjective stance. subjective stances are not bases for anything cause it changes from person to person. example follows.

High kill games are fun, so it is good. If this is true then Murdering people is fun, so it is good. Eh..... hope you have a problem with this. If fun is a good reason for one it has to be a good reason for everything.

This is why fun can never be a reason and only a byproduct of something. You do not have to prove a byproduct they just exist.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pYQow2u6,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2016-02-15T20:36:28.715+0000)

Fun is never a reason for something. At the pro level it is about efficient not fun. The fact you are using fun shows how you should not be making or contributing to this type of thread.

I will give you a logic proof that shows fun is not allowed as a reason of being.

if a statement to be logical the reason has to be applied universally. If it is not then it is not logically and is either a faulty reason or a subjective stance. subjective stances are not bases for anything cause it changes from person to person. example follows.

High kill games are fun, so it is good. If this is true then Murdering people is fun, so it is good. Eh..... hope you have a problem with this. If fun is a good reason for one it has to be a good reason for everything.

This is why fun can never be a reason and only a byproduct of something. You do not have to prove a byproduct they just exist.

sorry but what? there is a major difference between fun in a GAME and "fun" IRL. You can go and kill everyone you see IRL and say it's fun and see how far that gets you.

There are so few people that actually enjoy watching games in which nothing happens. Someone took a turret or two at 4 mins? great! now watch as they just push the wave go mid farm and do nothing for the enxt 10~20 mins until they get items. It's a boring and tedious match to watch. Everyone from twitch chat, to the actual live crowd to the casters to even the actual pros hate having to watch those matches. Where are the exciting fights? where are the exiting games? where is the excitement period? it's just a farm until it's almost 30 mins and have ONE teamfight and whoever wins it is declared the winner.

It's boring, tedious and frustrating since you can see who is going to win by a mile, i have several times just quit matches since it's pointless to continue watching them and i can more or less predict how long it will take for the game to end so i can pray the next one is exciting. But go ahead and keep using dumb logic that is flawed beyond belief, keep comparing killing on a game with killing in real life that sure is going to get you somewhere.

Angry Monster1 votes

sorry but what? there is a major difference between fun in a GAME and "fun" IRL. You can go and kill everyone you see IRL and say it's fun and see how far that gets you.

no their is not. this is why you children on the boards can not have a real conversation. You dismiss things you do not understand by trying to separate worlds. The OP is talking about the fun of watching something. Fun is never a reason as i show, your dismissing of it does not matter. I am using reason and you are using wishful thinking.

There are so few people that actually enjoy watching games in which nothing happens......... blah blah blah............. nothing new

you can have legit complaints, but you can not use fun as an example cause it all crumbles. FUN is fucking subjective and does not mean the same thing to everyone. Again my post. The fact you keep trying to use subjective statements to prove a point is sad.

You can feel all you want. Your feelings are not going to be shared by everyone.

Rain NT1 votes

Lol then maybe we should remove all M games ever cause they all involves killing. Your logic = nonsense, we human may be barbaric by nature, but thats the fun of watching violence. Youre telling me we would imitate anything we watch cause we enjoy watching it, well then they should remove MMA from sport cause maybe its too violent and people who enjoy watching it will enjoy hurting people in real life. Dont make me laugh, we really are barbaric and we do like watching violence but doesnt mean we will do it IRL.

Angry Monster1 votes

no you are just to limited to understand.

Rain NT1 votes

[deleted]

Angry Monster2 votes

when you eventually get into collage talk to a philo professor about your stance on fun. Let him educate you on your inability to form a meaningful thought.

Rain NT1 votes

College, learn to spell you useless philo professor, not collage. Collage is a combination or collection of various things.

Idiots it is unbelievable. If you cant even spell I recommend you to resign from your job, you dont deserve to teach. Youre bad at the game, you cant even spell, and you cant even teach. YOURE USELESS lol. Get out of here you silver scrub lol. I have evidence (printscreen) now so even if you re-edit your comment, everyone can see what a useless "professor" you are.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pYQow2u6,comment-id=00020000000200000000,timestamp=2016-02-15T20:56:17.869+0000)

no their is not. this is why you children on the boards can not have a real conversation. You dismiss things you do not understand by trying to separate worlds. The OP is talking about the fun of watching something. Fun is never a reason as i show, your dismissing of it does not matter. I am using reason and you are using wishful thinking.

you can have legit complaints, but you can not use fun as an example cause it all crumbles. FUN is fucking subjective and does not mean the same thing to everyone. Again my post. The fact you keep trying to use subjective statements to prove a point is sad.

You can feel all you want. Your feelings are not going to be shared by everyone.

us children? you are the children who thinks that "fun" is the same IRL than in a video game. You have fun killing in a video game guess what? nothing is wrong and nothing is going to happen to you. You have fun IRL and you are a psychopath or worst. LCS is pretty much a sport, why would you watch a boring sport? i guess there's golf but only people who are into golf even care about that. Your dismissing does not matter at all.

I can use fun as an example all i want because it is a legitimate complain. It does not matter whether or not is subjective when pretty much even the pros, casters a huge amount of the LIVE crowd and a good amount of Twitch chat pretty much agrees that they do not like watching the exact same boring openings that just lead to very slow and painful games. You are the sad one who thinks that people cannot use fun as an example. Like i said, when you have all of the people i already mentioned pretty much agreeing on one thing guess what? the game is boring to watch for most people. I could care less if 10% of people like watching slow and painfully tedious games, because 90% of the people do not enjoy that one bit. Specially when it's the same boring start over and over and over and over, it's the same as watching the same champions being picked over and over and over.

You can go ahead and feel all you want. I won't care one bit about your feelings. Fun may be subjective but let me tell you something, it's also something that a vast majority of people can agree with as well and that my friend is what is happening right now get that through that thick skull of yours

Angry Monster1 votes

I can use fun as an example all i want because it is a legitimate complain.

no its not. i showed you why its not. grow up and use real thoughts instead of subjective bull shit.

i will give you another example

zed is fun

This one is really simple cause with this statement everyone playing with and against zed always have to agree with it. The problem is not that not everyone is going to agree with it.

ADC mains will always mostly say that zed is not fun but x negative emotion. This is the problem with the word fun, its subjective.

Now what could be a great statement if true is "zed is a healthy/fair/balanced champ" You can have many logical reasons why x or not x. Something you can not do with fun, cause fun means something different to everyone.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pYQow2u6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-15T12:02:40.367+0000)

I hope Immortals playstyle will become the new meta. Yesterdays game against C9 was actually FUN to watch.

that is one of the best if not the best game across all major regions to watch by far

ThePartyLeader2 votes

The problem is dragon.

Make dragon worth gold again Make dragon buff temporary but give you the move speed, tower burn, increased dmg, say 150 seconds long. 5 dragon and beyond give a double buff similar to now.

Rift herald has similar problems where people take it just cause they can. So increase the time of the buff. Give the buff dragon 4 reduced turret damage to that champion and all buffed minions.

There is no reason that a "major" objective should be less sought after than scuttle crab. Make them worth something so people can't forfeit them

Retillin2 votes

Make dragon worth gold again. And also lower the dragon stacking from 5 to 4. (Or even 3 if you really want it contested)

AATTRROOXX2 votes

The problem with this entire post is that this has been happening since last year and probably before.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

I saw this in normals a few times. It's pretty simple to counteract/punish but everybody just continues doing what they're doing. When all 5 of the enemy start out top even, the mid is still farming and bot is still freezing the wave and the jungler is attacking the kruggs lol.

Sasogwa1 votes

Make the towers be tankier (more resists) and more powerful for each close enemy champion, and this aspect decaying over the minutes. Basically would make somewhat worthless to try hard to take a tower with multiple champions early on, multiple champions very early tower dive would be harded, and everything would end up the same in mid/lategame. Would definitely favourise a classic metagame. There might be top-bot laneswaps, but no unfun 4v0/3v1.

High51 votes

We're starting to see teams adjust. They could stop the swaps if the wanted to.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Turrets already have increased damage resistance for the first seven minutes of the game. It was added specifically because of LCS Lane swaps. The buff is called Fortification and you can see it by clicking on any turret before seven minutes.

Fortification - This turret takes 30 less damage from champion basic attacks.

The LCS plays around this by grouping up so much that the enemy gets shoved out of lane and then let a huge minion wave build up (minions are not affected by the buff) to slam into the turret all at once.

The easiest way to encourage a longer laning phase would be to make a pro league specific change that removes gold gain from turrets entirely. If teams don't get such a spike in wealth by taking towers they would probably focus more on CSing.

Rain NT1 votes

I want it to do 200% more damage the first 4 mins. I want it so the bot lane can never even get close to the turret if they want to harass the opposing top laner. Plus if the team was smart and the turret does 250% extra damage, I'll bring my jungler top and make it 2v4, and lets see how many of them survive the dive.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

I want it to do 200% more damage the first 4 mins. I want it so the bot lane can never even get close to the turret if they want to harass the opposing top laner. Plus if the team was smart and the turret does 250% extra damage, I'll bring my jungler top and make it 2v4, and lets see how many of them survive the dive.

Extra damage doesn't mean much when the dive only lasts a few seconds. What you want is a high amount of attack speed, so not only do the divers face more risk, but multiple divers can face risk if they get CC'd under tower.

One big blast that deals 300 damage every 0.75 seconds may guarantee you get 1 for the 2, but a weak blast of 100 every 1.25 seconds means that all four of them will be limping out of there on their back legs, if they get lucky.

invisiblecat11 votes

I lane swap from Riven top to mid when they have a Yasuo all the time

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

Well, whens the last time some people didn't consider LCS to be boring? 4v0 turret pushes? Hour long Ziggs waveclear games? Renekton vs Shyv top literally every single game?

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

I don't think you know what a lane swap is for. People do it so they can avoid bad matchups. Its a way to ensure that no one falls behind early so that everyone is on even footing to contest objectives and fight early skirmishes.

Also your turret recommendation happened in season 4, thats why it was the 4v0 meta where everyone piled top lane and the other team went bot and traded two turrets.

And I don't know what in the hell make you think they are going to stop jungle invades.

Rain NT1 votes

I do know, thats why I wrote that in my post ^^

But the problem is, if the last pick has a counter pick, they have to give up something for another lane to get countered as well. Look if youre red side and you show your last pick mid to counter right?, that means you have to show your 3 and 4 pick to the enemy team (it could be top jungle adc) which the other team can counter AGAINST. Its a two way deal, ITS LITTERALLY old school.

And btw no they didnt do it for season 4 cause they only increase the damage slightly and the turret resistance way up. I'm saying increase the damage to the point there is NO way to to dive without dying the first 4 mins. And in history of league, invading was still here back in season 1 and we dont need to lane swap deal to do it, not to mention everyone dont like to watch it every top level game (even the pros).

Like Im not hating, I think that it shouldnt be the number one option to avoid any kind of casualty early game by just trading. Its so boring to watch cause you already know whats going to happen 80% of the time for the first 20 mins.

YCitizenSnipsY3 votes

Yeah...no. If a team is coordinated to get enough people to tower dive early they shouldn't be punished by all getting 1 shotted. This damn mentality that you should be invulnerable under tower seriously needs to go.

There not going to get rid of the fog of war on the river. If a team can successfully get into the jungle and gain knowledge on what a match up will be good for them.

You may not like the way the game is played competitively, but its played that way for a reason. Teams are doing what they are doing right now to ensure they have a chance and not loosing at champ select. It may not be fun to watch but that happens. It may be entertainment, but these teams still want to win.

Rain NT1 votes

Then be faker and win in a losing matchup, If you dont get a counter pick in champ select as blue side, you deserve to be an LCS team. I would trade my mid lane for a top lane counter pick or a jungle counter. If they cant even figure that out, whats the point of them being in the LCS. Yes I know the lane swap as much here for a long time, but its terrible to watch and honestly whats the point of the first two turrets in the side lanes IF THEY ALWAYS get crush, might as well remove them in general.

This game has a CLEAR structure already of 1v1 mid top and 2v2 bot, you see it in every soloque game. So why is it that in pro play or 5v5 that it is different WHEN IT IS BORING TO WATCH AND LITERALLY RISK FREE. No nothing should be risk free to that level, if you want to lane swap? Fine. But you have to PAY to do that, have to sacrifice something to do that. My whole mentality of being invulnerable under tower needs to go? Well you mentally of being unpublishable because they want to avoid a bad lane matchup should go as well. If you have a bad matchup and you dont want it, switch but pay something little in exchange. Dont let it free, and trust me most people dont want to watch it, NA EU KOREA most pros in each region think it takes away the fundamentals of the game that was formerly placed. SO WHY KEEP IT if even pros dont like it?

Cause atm, lane swap basically mean the top laner doesnt get to play the game for the first 5 mins and may be a level or 2 behind cause of it, and YOU think thats fair? If you dont think its fair, why dont you think of a way to involve the top laner to play the game if they decide to lane swap. I dont care if my plans doing get placed in the game, I JUST WANT IT TO GO NO ONE LIKE IT, NOT THE PROS and definitely not me. Well atleast not EVERY top level game, no. If you want to a puss y and avoid the 2v2 matchup or 1v1 matchup, you better give up your left hand for it.

QNjixEktAn1 votes

range champions should take crazy amounts of damage from towers first off. You should never be taking even 1 hit with a range champion. Its not their job to soak extra damage from these things. But riot won't ever do that make towers to strong against the ADC god meta. So they instead made ADC champions able to solo tank a tower like it isn't even hitting them. Makes sense i would of went with the same concept.

Already amazing poke against people under-tower, but wait there is more. Now you get to take 50 shots from the tower and still be at 100% with your range ADC champion and if you think those pesky enemy champions might attack your ranged ADC do not worry. We here at riot games has the range ADC gods back. We made it so if a enemy even thinks about getting in your AA range you will instantly do 1000 damage to them and if they manage to do any damage to you we made it for your AA heals you for 1000 hp also. We just wanted to make sure all the ADC gods have nothing to worry about but mindlessly using their no skill totally computer control AA move to win the game. Thank you for supporting riot games and hopefully all you people keep throwing money at us while we actually do no changes that benefit the game or the community ever.

Signed riot games.

LordGeovanni1 votes

mindless avg plays or stratigies that work 90% of community rather the mindless stuff not that people trying to win or any thing

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