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Sigh, here's another qq talon thread. But if you want to have a healthy discussion respond :)

forist·Nov 2, 2014·2 votes·650 views

The problem with the Talon's nerf isn't as much his utility and power being reduced. The main issue I have with it is that Talon's identity has been taken away. He used to be this kind of bursty all-in assassin type champ, with low base stats, a shit passive, completely item reliant, countered by armor, and just overall very underwhelming laning phases. When I used to play him, (mind you I played him a ton in ranked before the nerf, and don't rage just because I'm low gold elo), every time i won lane against another assassin i felt really proud, because 90% of the time it had to be a straight-up outplay. Now, it feels like I have to be at least 20x better than the other mid laner to win lane. The problem with removing the silence and giving no utility compensation is that literally every assassin in the game is now better at assassinating than him. Everything that talon can do in lane, another champ, for example: fizz, zed, yasuo, akali, diana, katarina, etc, can do better while also bringing more abilities to the table. So there is no reason to play him. And the argument everyone keeps giving is that "oh people who still like him are gonna keep playing him and do well"- well the point of this game is to have strategic matchups, and right now talon has no unique matchups. Every matchup he would be good in can now be played 10x better by picking zed or yasuo. Removing his silence has simply made him unviable and a watered down version of any other assassin in league. **I just want to have a game where picking Talon is a smart choice **and not just because he is my favorite champ. Hopefully a red can give any sort of context to if and when he will be fixed.

Anyways done ranting, so here's a new idea I have, because I don't believe talon has a single counter anymore, give me one example of an assassin that is worse than talon atm, or even a champ that he counters in mid lane, and I'll explain why you are wrong, in the most civil way possible :)

23 Comments

AetherKingdomNov 2, 20141 votes

talon can aoe fuck teams tho, unlike assassins like zed

foristNov 2, 20141 votes

talon can aoe fuck teams tho, unlike assassins like zed

First, i would like to state that talon's burst is in no way strong enough to "aoe fuck" an entire team. A significant portion of his damage is tied to his e which amplifies the damage done to one target, while not to mention placing him on top of said target. Second, in what context would you pick an assassin based on having a stronger aoe?

AetherKingdomNov 2, 20142 votes

talon can aoe fuck teams tho, unlike assassins like zed

First, i would like to state that talon's burst is in no way strong enough to "aoe fuck" an entire team. A significant portion of his damage is tied to his e which amplifies the damage done to one target, while not to mention placing him on top of said target.

It can, and it does. It does 520 + 1.8 bonus ad to all enemies in the area.

Second, in what context would you pick an assassin based on having a stronger aoe?

When you want to assassinate a target and still have an effect on the rest of their team.

foristNov 2, 20141 votes

When you want to assassinate a target and still have an effect on the rest of their team.

Also, just remembered that riven is an assassin also, so i would count her as having as much aoe as talon, as well as having a built in shield, movement speed buffs (due to her q which i count as aoe), a stun, and percent health damage on her ult. Also, refer to the previous post for katarina comparisons. So, if you want an aoe assassin, why pick talon over riven or katarina?

AetherKingdomNov 2, 20141 votes

When you want to assassinate a target and still have an effect on the rest of their team.

Also, just remembered that riven is an assassin also, so i would count her as having as much aoe as talon, as well as having a built in shield, movement speed buffs (due to her q which i count as aoe), a stun, and percent health damage on her ult. Also, refer to the previous post for katarina comparisons. So, if you want an aoe assassin, why pick talon over riven or katarina?

Talon shreks single targets hard WHILE having short term invis and can get his burst off faster

foristNov 2, 20142 votes

Talon shreks single targets hard WHILE having short term invis and can get his burst off faster

No offense, but that last statement and your other posts on this forum have cost you all of your credibility (in my eyes anyways). We were just talking about aoe, if you want to discuss burst speed, then compare talon to zed or akali or yasuo or leblanc or fizz, who have way quicker bursts as well as multiple gap closers. As for invisibility see akali or rengar or kha' zix. In either of those categories Talon is vastly outclassed. I don't want to make too many assumptions, but I don't think you even play talon and are someone who simply doesn't like him because you've had bad games against a skilled talon player.

SouL1essNov 2, 20142 votes

He quoted Talon's ult damage being 520 + 1.8*Bonus AD, do you think he actually played Talon recently?

foristNov 2, 20141 votes

He quoted Talon's ult damage being 520 + 1.8*Bonus AD, do you think he actually played Talon recently?

Anyone can look up stats online, or do calculations based on item build or base stats or even just check the damage rates on their death recap after being killed. Idk whether his stats are true or not, and idc the discussion isn't about this guy it's about talon's role in the game, and how removing his silence took it away making him a basically worse at every single archetype in lol.

Now if anyone wants to continue the original discussion, feel free to. Give me an example of an assassin who's worse than talon atm, or even a lane matchup that currently favors him, and I'll respond. (the only reason I keep responding to the previous poster is because I simply dont want my thread to die, without getting a little bit of attention.) >:P

AetherKingdomNov 2, 20141 votes

He quoted Talon's ult damage being 520 + 1.8*Bonus AD, do you think he actually played Talon recently?

I have, and it does. 260 + .9 on the way out, and the same on the way in.

SouL1essNov 2, 20142 votes

The live values are 220 + 0.75*BonusAD for each instance of damage.

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Talon's damage was specifically nerfed by 15% to accommodate his damage amplification actually working - do you remember that patch?

Also, if you want to assassinate a target and still have an effect on the other team, pick an assassin that can stay alive after killing. Making a fight 5v4 is much more advantageous for your team, instead of 4v4 with a suicide bomb attempt.

foristNov 2, 20141 votes

Also, if you want to assassinate a target and still have an effect on the other team, pick an assassin that can stay alive after killing. Making a fight 5v4 is much more advantageous for your team, instead of 4v4 with a suicide bomb attempt.

Definitely true, I hope people aren't picking talon as a suicide bomber champ in this meta. We have enough champs that are actually designed to work that way: karthus, sion, yorick, mordekaiser, and kog-maw. And I don't know about anyone else, but to me the most toxic feeling in this game (more toxic than stuns, silences, supressions, unstoppable point-and-click ults) is when you kill someone and then they kill you after they are dead. Worst feeling ever, like I just made a great play, but some stupid ability allowed the other guy to make it 1 for 1 kill.

AetherKingdomNov 2, 20141 votes

Talon shreks single targets hard WHILE having short term invis and can get his burst off faster

No offense, but that last statement and your other posts on this forum have cost you all of your credibility (in my eyes anyways). We were just talking about aoe, if you want to discuss burst speed, then compare talon to zed or akali or yasuo or leblanc or fizz, who have way quicker bursts as well as multiple gap closers. As for invisibility see akali or rengar or kha' zix. In either of those categories Talon is vastly outclassed. I don't want to make too many assumptions, but I don't think you even play talon and are someone who simply doesn't like him because you've had bad games against a skilled talon player.

I'm saying that talon can kill single targets faster that riven or katarina while still doing a large amount of AOE damage.

foristNov 2, 20141 votes

I'm saying that talon can kill single targets faster that riven or katarina while still doing a large amount of AOE damage.

Once again, I'll say katarina does much more aoe damage while getting resets as well. Unless you are incredibly fed Talon's burst is just simply not strong enough to kill people as fast as you're assuming. He can't just kill people with only 2 spells (r and w), zed and akali are the champs who do that. If you are going for a kill, the only way to maximize Talon's burst and secure the kill is to weave auto attacks and q's in order to proc his passive correctly. This puts you into easy range of any cc or counter harass, and if you are using his ult 2x for the damage (which is the only way to guarantee the kill early game) then you are not invisible. Katarina has 3 aoe abilities vs Talon's 2 and while her ult is a channel, she doesn't even need to auto attack to gimp squishies, so I would consider Talon's full burst rotation much slower than hers. As for Riven, she has 3 aoe's (gonna count broken wings as an aoe, because that is how it acts) plus massive movement steroids, a stun (the only other assassin that has this is pantheon btw), and her aoe wind slash does more damage the lower the hp of the champs it hits. If played correctly she should melt squishies just as fast or even faster than talon.

What I'm getting at here is that in terms of aoe katarina is much better, and in terms of burst speed i could list a huge number of champs that are better: zed, akakli, fizz, leblanc, yasuo. So, you are saying you'd play Talon because he offers a little bit of both aoe and burst speed? That's exactly why he is in a bad place now. This is a strategic game, and a champion being picked because he's a jack of all trades (for want of a better phrase) is not smart. It doesn't make any sense to pick talon after this nerf. He offers nothing other assassin don't, and is not better than any other assassins at one thing either.

foristNov 2, 20141 votes

Ok, I'm not gonna argue the level of damage talon put outs with statistics, because im bad at math, but trust me, his damage is very moderate without his full burst rotation including his e and empowered auto's q (which also only hit one target). But, I'll humor you and assume you want an assassin with high aoe. If you do, katarina has much better ratios, higher aoe damage, aoe on 3 of her spells, an ability that makes her take reduced damage, and the strongest reset mechanics ever implemented in league of legends. So, if you want an assassin who has effect on the other team and assassinates why pick talon over katarina?

RaptameiNov 2, 20141 votes

The problem with the Talon's nerf isn't as much his utility and power being reduced. The main issue I have with it is that Talon's identity has been taken away.

It's a competitive game, no one cares about identity.

foristNov 2, 20141 votes

It's a competitive game, no one cares about identity.

I do, I like to think this game has a lot of strategy especially during champion select. So, a champion's identity will dictate whether or not he's picked. For example zed is an extremely safe assassin who has high mobility, excellent dueling, and great split pushing. You would pick him against alot of mages as mid lane counter picks or when the opponent picks a squishy hypercarry with high mobility. Whereas if your team is lacking cc you can pick annie for her burst and stun. Anyways, the point is Talon used to have a role as an anti-mage assassin who can prevent the other teams apcs from bursting down or hard ccing his own team. Without his silence though, he no longer has a role to fill, which kinda disappoints me, because I liked the champion and felt like he was in a good place during the current meta, being a niche pick. Now he's literally a weaker version of every other assassin in the game, and its no fun to play a champion that isn't unique. That's why when I say identity i really mean the champions strengths and how they form a champion's kit and role in the current meta.

foristNov 3, 20141 votes

Shameless promotional comment. :P

Not sure if this thread is just not getting noticed, or if no one can actually come up with a situation in which they'd pick Talon. So, someone please comment and enlighten me, or else I'll just have to assume I'm right and Talon was completely scrapped by riot. Oh, and if anyone has any info on what riot plans to do with Talon in the next patch or even season, feel free to share. As far as I've seen, not a single red has commented on any talon thread atm. Maybe this could be the first thread, riot. ;)

foristNov 3, 20141 votes

Still waiting, btw if you have enough time to down-vote my thread, why don't you post and explain why? I'm dying to hear your responses. :D

foristNov 4, 20141 votes

Thus another thread dies without being noticed, my opinions haven't been changed let alone even challenged. Maybe I should post another thread, it'll probably be asking the same things, but sometimes we just want a tiny little response from riot.

DrogmyreNov 4, 20141 votes

Assassin worse than Talon?

Evelynn. I haven't seen an Evelynn in practically FOREVER, she's back down in dumpster town again because Riot can't balance stealth for shit.

foristNov 4, 20141 votes

Evelynn. I haven't seen an Evelynn in practically FOREVER, she's back down in dumpster town again because Riot can't balance stealth for shit.

This is actually quite true. I guess I could consider eve worse (haven't played her since the nerfs), but on the other hand her kit is very unique, the problem is her ratios. Kinda the opposite of Talon's problem. So, maybe at 1v1ing eve is worse than talon, but thats never really been her role, in competitive play she was almost always built as a cc tank/bruiser and took advantage of her stealth to surprise initiate team fights, which i guess i don't consider to be the assassin type play style.

DrogmyreNov 4, 20141 votes

She used to have a lot of teamfight ability. She's changed from invisible master assassin to wonky stealth teamfight thing person girl after her rework (which didn't fix anything.)

foristNov 4, 20141 votes

She used to have a lot of teamfight ability. She's changed from invisible master assassin to wonky stealth teamfight thing person girl after her rework (which didn't fix anything.)

Definitely agree with this, but if you had to either pick talon or evelynn to jungle, who would you pick? I guarantee 9/10 players would pick eve over talon.

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