The reason people say "ADC in 2k17 lul"

Mira Arya Enthe··20 votes·4,869 views

People seem to have forgotten because a couple Lethality abusers, that prior to the lethality buffs people were literally looking for any alternative to play in bot lane other than ADCs. We saw lots of Ziggs ADC, but also some other picks showing up before BOOM! Lethality buff.

But the thing is, ADCs are still in a shitty spot, a couple, mostly caster ADCs, are busted. But why? Not because the class as a whole is suddenly good again, but because they can abuse the currently busted items that are currently busted.

Jhin Varus MissFortune May be busted. But let's look at traditional Crit DPS ADCs

Sivir Ashe Jinx Lucian Vayne Tristana Caitlyn Are all doing below average or even shitty by their win rates.

KogMaw Likely being propped up by his dedicated mains, low play rate.

Twitch Still doing good because Twitch is essentially never a bad ADC due to his ult, passive and Q.

Draven Mixed results depending on varying factors but doing exceptionally well because Draven in a meta full of squishies to bully is Draven in a meta full of Squishies to be bullied.

The only ADC who has been persistently a strong pick regardless of his current build or Meta is Jhin, because like Ashe near the end of S6 when she hit a 30% play rate and 54% win rate, he doesn't lose enough damage for the utility he offers or vice versa(Which I was among the first to say back then even though I love Ashe).

For the most part the class is doing terrible. The reason is obvious, other than those who can abuse Lethality, they have no valid place in the game. ADCs are Attack Damage Carries, as much as new names like Marksman try to change that, their role is to buy Attack Damage, scale up and Carry the late game. Or in other words, play whack a mole with minion HP and afk farmville till 20 minutes then become relevant.

This means either one of two things needs to happen to the ADC class. Either games need to get longer again and they naturally will regain relevance with normal AD builds(not abusing lethality). OR! ADCs need to be rethought into not Attack Damage Carries, but Ranged Combatants who aren't about just scaling up for DPS.

Either one would work. One would return them to their formal role as late game carries, the other would make the class of Marksman a form of fighter who specializes in range at the expense of defense, instead of a late game damage stick.

We all probably want longer games anyway, so this shouldn't be a problem once snowball is toned down. That said, I just wanted to explain why people say "ADC 2k17 lul", and why it is completely a valid joke.

What do you think? Do you think ADCs identity is healthy as late game DPS rods with low HP pools who afk farm to 20 minutes? Do you feel matches should be longer or ADCs should be redesigned? Or perhaps you want longer matches and a new take on ADCs? People seem to enjoy early game/utility Marksman, maybe the whole class should be redesigned to reflect people's love of this. Or not. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

30 Comments

ChargeItDownMid10 votes

[deleted]

Wavy Gravy1 votes

with the reworks, these champs are not marksmen but rather ranged bruisers, they do not work well in bot lane or with dedicated peel teams.

Variks the Loyal4 votes

... They're both still Marksmen, doesn't matter where they're played. Graves' class didn't change to 'Fighter' because he's tankier than other ADCs.

Wavy Gravy1 votes

So is the new urgot more of a Marksman or a Fighter. Most champs have 2 classes, Primary and secondary.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

New Urgot is classified as a Juggernaut.

Brain Errör 4042 votes

When were mages shoved out of the meta? I seriously don't recall.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

WoonStruck1 votes

Meanwhile Lulu, Karma, or Zilean were picked mid to counter assassins.

Sasogwa8 votes

Caitlyn 's still doing fine. But tbh it's hard to judge ADC's powerlevel according to winrate because in every single game there is one ADC in each side. Which means if lethality abusers get nerfed, normal ADC winrate increases automatically. And in all honesty, as long as ADCs are still metagame botlane, they simply can't be too weak. They freaking monopolize a role with their class and have been doing so for years. And one exception (wow ziggs) isn't gonna change much about that.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Cait isn't really good at all, at least not compared to a lethality user, if i had to pick i´d use Varus over cait in the current game. And my favorite ADC's are Ashe and trist :(

If Jhin, MF and varus couldn't use lethality then we wouldn't really have any ADC's left and that's reflected in their playrates.

Most of the community only find those 3 viable to all 3 of them have had their playrates skyrocket, i´ve been saying this indicates an issue for weeks and only a few have responded in any way.

LordGeovanni1 votes

the thing is you cant only compare adcs to adcs. adcs shit on everyone in the game buffing one adc because another found a strong build with out worring about every champion that isnt an adc would be bs and if that goes through every nearly every top laner needs buffs to keep up with strong rivens who rip through teams and darius who beats you because he does dot while fighting after fighting in lane.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

the thing is you cant only compare adcs to adcs. adcs shit on everyone in the game buffing one adc because another found a strong build with out worring about every champion that isnt an adc would be bs and if that goes through every nearly every top laner needs buffs to keep up with strong rivens who rip through teams and darius who beats you because he does dot while fighting after fighting in lane.

eh....nearly every single damage dealing champ in League can 100-0 any ADC instantly currently, only safeguard is edge of night, which is something most dislike due to how much it all turned into a fiesta.

Same goes for assassins and lethality users in general which turns it all into a oneshot competition.

Most ADC's are currently trash compared to other roles, exception are the lethaltiy ADC's....

Varus Plays like AD xerath.

MissFortune is a walking ultimate machine outisde lane, inside lane she just spams Q everywhere, which kills people.

Jhin is keeping the number 4 sexy, also shooting people dead by virtue of powerful abilities and crazy math passive.

Then we have Ezreal who is fine but....he is Ezreal, only the Koreans and a few others like him, and he is inferior to the other 3.

ADC's can't deal with tanks in the early-midgame at all, and even if they grab a last whisper it's a 100-0 from enemy mages or assassins, or even the tank if it possess some damage.

And as for buffing ADC's, did you know? Almost no ADC can currently deal with dedicated tanks like Rammus .

Yesterday i played against one as Ashe , in the spam of 7 auto attacks i did 200-400 damage with about 2-3 items. And he killed me, i do understand that he is dedicated to wrecking AD champs and slow scaling ADC's however those slow scaling guys are fairly useless in every situation currently.

You give off the impression that all ADC's are like Vayne who turns into a absolute monster whenever she is strong or gets fed. When few are.

Tell me one class except the healer supports who can actually be beaten by the ADC's outside the extreme lategame or being massively fed, tell me one and i´ll consider your statement.

LordGeovanni1 votes

nearly every single damage dealing champ in League can 100-0 any ADC instantly currently

this is supposed to be the case for every class of champions on the condition they can get to an adc and most champions in the game cant get to an adc even less can get to an adc and kill them before they just use their excape or cc and run. most tanks and fighters just get kited by an adc and most likely cant even get into range even if they can they just run away because damage comes with free excapes item 3086 . you dont even see Rammus and he cant even get to an adc not to mention his w is made useless by one lifesteal item.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

this is supposed to be the case for every class of champions on the condition they can get to an adc and most champions in the game cant get to an adc even less can get to an adc and kill them before they just use their excape or cc and run.

No it's not really, the ADC should be able to get away with positioning and protection from the support and team however nowadays there are plenty of champs that can instakill the ADC from the slightest gap which is why the only ADC played now are jhin, MF, Ezreal,varus and cait.

They have so much range and ability damage that they hardly expose any flaws, ever. Because of this they survive fairly easily even if a enemy assassin or diver or mage tries to kill them, however this isn't really a good thing because this kind of state causes the majority of ADC's to be useless.

most tanks and fighters just get kited by an adc and most likely cant even get into range even if they can they just run away because damage comes with free excapes item 3086 . you dont even see Rammus and he cant even get to an adc not to mention his w is made useless by one lifesteal item.

Except they dont, most tanks and fighters have mobiltiy and gapclosers which allows them to get to the ADC and kill them, only a handful are capable of surviving that.

And item 3086 gives 5% movespeed ._. Even with a full on item built from zeal giving you 7% extra movespeed no ADC will build more than two landing them at 410-425 depending on their basespeed. Nearly any diver or tank with mobility is faster.

And you clearly have not done your math for Rammus. His W at rank 1 deals 25 damage to anyone who auto attacks him. That means you need to heal 25 to ignore his W's base damage. With 10% lifesteal you then need 250 AD.

At lvl 9 when his W maxes out it deals 65 base damage + 10% from armor. Assuming that he has 150 armor at the time that is 80 damage per auto taken meaning you need 800 AD with 10% lifesteal to not kill yourself as a AD auto reliant champ.

And nearly every rammus builds item 3075 .

Lets assume that enemy ADC that attacks has 170 AD.

170 x 0,15 = 25,5 + 150x0,25 = 37,5

=63.

Rammus W + thornmail = 80+63=143.

Which with 10% lifesteal means you need to have 1,4 k AD to not take damage from his W.

And in teamfights rammus doesn't need to really catch the enemy ADC anymore, he can just facetank them while dealing monstrous damage for someone not doing anything. And god forbid he do something like Q-Flash-R-taunt while auto attacking.

As a ADC you die in literal seconds from that, even in the lategame. And so i will choose to stand by my claim that the game is poorly balanced, the traditional ADC's have gotten completely pushed out because they can't deal with the gimmics and additional damage that everyone else have received. Only those with exceptional range or ability damage are still good in the average game.

LordGeovanni1 votes
Except they dont, most tanks and fighters have mobiltiy and gapclosers which allows them to get to the ADC and kill them, only a handful are capable of surviving that. 

Most fighters have mobility to jump in on an adc (after fighting through half of their team with their mostly defensive bar because if they dont build mostly defensive they will pop easier than any adc taking the brunt of the enemy teams damage) and the adcs have cc and or mobility of their own to get out just as fast as the fighter got in and reposition and heal up what ever damage they took in 3 or less auto attacks. not to mention if you are midlessly attacking through rammus w something is wrong with you any adc who isnt below summoner level 13 will run for the duration or attack another target if not alternate between attacking rammus and another target. i agree wholy that the game is poorly balanced but that adcs are the class that benifits the second most from this poor balance next to mages.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

{quoted}

Most fighters have mobility to jump in on an adc (after fighting through half of their team with their mostly defensive bar because if they dont build mostly defensive they will pop easier than any adc taking the brunt of the enemy teams damage) and the adcs have cc and or mobility of their own to get out just as fast as the fighter got in and reposition and heal up what ever damage they took in 3 or less auto attacks. not to mention if you are midlessly attacking through rammus w something is wrong with you any adc who isnt below summoner level 13 will run for the duration or attack another target if not alternate between attacking rammus and another target. i agree wholy that the game is poorly balanced but that adcs are the class that benifits the second most from this poor balance next to mages.

I don't think one can actually throw all mages into a single pot anymore, they have gained a lot of diversity in items and combo's which causes them to work differently.

As for attacking Rammus through his W, true it's really bad to do it however he can flash-taunt and then use his face to prevent you from shooting anyone else, you can't ignore him but you can't kill him. And even with only thornmail he´s nigh untouchable for a ADC until you have around 4-5 items.

Some ADC's can't hurt tanks well no matter how long the games go Ashe Tristana Sivir whilst other's like say MissFortune melt them in a heartbeat, i think this is a huge source to the frustration many feel.

And yet, some might say it's natural because of MF's ulti but i wonder if that is such a good thing, a few ADC's are so powerful that it makes the tanks useless while others are so weak they can't even kill them even after 20 seconds of hitting nonstop.

More ever, it is currently quite rare for a ADC to reach 4 items let alone 5. And 6 is a small miracle, that is why i saw that game is poorly balanced, because only a handful of ADC's are actually viable for such extremely quick games but if the matches drag on and the other slower ADC's catch up they suddenly transform into monstersVayne . While some other ADC's are just kinda bad all the waySivir Kalista .

And so the viable ADC champs are kinda split between the ones useful before having 4-6 items and the ones that become useful after gaining them, but my issue is that only 4 or so ADC's are infact good with few items which causes them to be the only ones played. This situation killed any idea of diversity in the botlane and now everyone are playing Jhin Varus Ezreal Caitlyn and sometimes MissFortune altho she isn't as popular as those 4.

The reason those 4 are so popular is range and safety, it's extremely hard to catch them because of either safety tools or outright CC and their range ensures that they deal damage in any situation. They completely outshine the older classic adc's like Ashe Jinx KogMaw and even Tristana. (Altho she is kinda broken the moment she is viable but i won't go there)

Sure i may not enjoy the meta's were crit builds were truly strong in which Vayne and Caitlyn dominated everything but i don't like the meta of AD xerath botlaners and tank destroyers either :( Even Cait kinda playes like one with her trap mechanic and E-Q cheese.

But i don't think anyone enjoyed the meta were tanks just steamrolled everything, i still have memories of several games where something like Leona support. Nautilus top. Sejuani jungle and Chogath happened and my team just couldn't kill anything due to how overwhelmingly durable they were even though our teams were equal at that point.

Ah but my point, ADC is poorly balanced as a class, either all of them are broken or a handful are whilst the rest are garbage. I can't even recall a time in which a majority of them were comparatively "balanced" since season 3.

Speeedy2 votes

all other adc(non leathlity adc) need what i think is an item buff to make them an option. Some sort of cheap Armor pen to make their mid game viable. I would like to see a long sword (350 gold) built into a new item for 550 gold that has 30% armor pen and 10 attack damage then that builds into item 3035 for an additional 400 gold. That would solve what i see alot of the problems are of getting through the mid game. The build of a few patches ago is item 3031 item 3085 item 3094 item 3036 item 3072 just takes way too long to finish with average game times today, since the new meta games are over in less than 30 min and that build takes 35 min if you do not get fed and have good farm.

Ralanr1 votes

Both to better diversify the class.

Erockandroll1 votes

I literally have no Idea what needs to happen. All I know is that the pendulum is swinging between "an handful of ADCS are abusing Apen/Lethality" and "ADCs are worthless," and the only common factor is seems to be an early game meta.

WoonStruck2 votes

Riot's finally going to realize why some of their changes were horrible for the game.

They could use a little humility as far as their overarching design changes go...

SwiftKitten881 votes

the reason ADC is a joke right now is becuase ADC's are designed to bring SUSTAINED damage to a teamfight. with all the damage creep and lethality, the teamfight in over in 5-10 seconds.. there is no need for "sustained" damage.

NodirjonSattarov1 votes

finally some recognition

doodlebob6661 votes

im still confused by the fact that in all my time of playing (only since the beginning of season 6) Ezreal has managed to be the exact same on every metric no matter what the meta was, he is like the riven of botlane

Ackelope1 votes

it's probably because he works well enough with so many things that, unless you nerf him directly (and harshly), he can fall back on a different set of broken/good/ok items to do well enough with to thrive. I guess Riot's just got him in a spot that they're okay with, because he rarely receives balance changes and fundamental kit changes, the only real time I can think of where he's been pretty OP was the whole Runeglaive Ez mid fiasco.

LordGeovanni1 votes

that ranged combatants thing is what adcs were orignially. because adc did not mean that you will hard carry a team becuase in the time before marksmen came about everything was a carry ADC APC Melee Carry. Adc meant that their carry potiental came from attack damage as apposed to others comming from ability power and not being melee. they were never meant to be the carries of the game but rather the safe ranged sustained damage dealer while apcs were safe ranged damage dealers that did damage in chunks riot nerfed defenses in the game so marksmen and mages stopped buying them believe it or not there was a time when every class had to buy some sort of defenses to stop themselves from dieing before the did anything but when they did following organized pro teams who have order in their play unlike solo que they complained that melee carries did too much damage nerfing individual melee carries. So they arent safe they cant build too much damage or they insta die but they cant build too much defense or you do no damage and only get to survive 2 seconds longer so there is no reason to play them. they riot tries to buff their shitty items adcs all pick it up and then they are tanks and adcs at the same time while being ranged and safe so riot nerfs them even harder. riot takes nearly every attack speed item from melee carries which is their sustained damage but they still have long cooldowns on their mobility spells. adcs are never weak they are only ever weakER or stronger than previous incarnations of the same role against the other roles they stomp

Wavy Gravy1 votes

Just because, all other things equal, marksmen are needed for siege, does not mean they should have no ability to survive or counter other champs on their own, to all those who think the average marksmen is in a good place: you are dumb and probably can only get wins on juggernauts.

StealerRX1 votes

Because adc in 2017 is the useless lane than all of rest lanes cuz is super squichi and all of supports have more damage than him and with assasins rework play with adc is super hard

SirLapse1 votes

I can make a 4v5 drag out to a 32 minute game. I do not want longer games, but ADCs definitely need re-tuning on their early itemization. They just don't hit a proper powerspike like they used to back in the day. ADCs used to be seen mid lane, MID LANE! Ranged-only items need to get changed or added.

Kaìju1 votes

As an Ashe player, (Also how do I make those dope ass huge square things) my beef with her is her low damage output. Someone else said something that resonated with me, about how she doesn't kill tanks. I wish she had a bit more damage and less utility. Like she's fun, but it feels so bad that even with what is the most optimal build I can't do anything to some team comps outside of "stun someone and just hit them for all off 150 damage per shot so I feel useful even though I'm not." Some character designs just seem like they cannot work. You can't have a dps tank, because that's kinda dumb. You can't have a cc tank with damage, that's dumb. I wonder, can you have a utility carry? She feels ok, but if you're only picking Ashe for her ult, is she really that good? How much if her power budget is used in her global 3.5 second stun? I'd take a nerf to it for more slows/damage. Just my thoughts.

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