do yall just not want support champions in the game or what

resumed·Jun 16, 2016·4 votes·778 views

everyone got mad when sona got an ultimate skin

everyone got mad when zyra was being balanced as a support for the mymu, you know, where she was played almost 100% of the time

lots of people got mad that brand was partly being balanced as a support for the mymu too, when he was played suppport 50% of the time

now tahm kench is simply being included as a support, you know, how he was intended to be, for the mini class update and theres so many threads crying about him

people are getting mad about champions they dont even play just because they get played in the support role

sona got MUCH bigger changes but ive hardly seen anyone talk about those

30 Comments

Fondling GemsJun 16, 20167 votes

Not that a large chunk of the support Zyra players only played her as support because she was barely viable mid. They played her there because it was the only place they could play her.

Not joining in any debate here, just putting it out there.

resumedJun 16, 20161 votes

yeah but theres also zyra mains like me who only play her because shes viable as a support

VekknaJun 16, 20163 votes

7 games does not make you a Zyra main.

resumedJun 16, 20161 votes

this does though http://image.prntscr.com/image/6d2cac3c167140cd937975a1792923cd.png

VekknaJun 16, 20163 votes

That makes you a soraka main.

resumedJun 16, 20161 votes

tfw http://image.prntscr.com/image/db08287e1b8346b4b73da5ec16b0887c.png

VekknaJun 16, 20161 votes

Ok, I concede.

Edit: I thought that was 446k at first. 46k is not that much, but it qualifies. =P

resumedJun 16, 20161 votes

the only reason i have lvl 6 on soraka b4 i do on zyra is because i got reaper soraka in my store and i played her a lot when i bought it and zyra is more popular with the changes to her so i havent really been able to play her and im a hipster fuck when it comes to popular champions

ÇhåryzårdJun 16, 20164 votes

I'm a support main and I play Sona a lot, and while I agree Sona could use some changes, these new nerfs are going to be garbage. Her laning phase is going to suck so bad there's really no point in bringing her.

Before someone says "BUT THE LATE GAME BUFF!" let me tell you this

No support should have to wait until late game to become relevant when your adc needs you to be relevant in lane. If your laning phase is trash you will lose lane and that will negatively affect you later. Sona's laning phase is going to be horrible, and for what, a late game buff that she may not even reach if the game doesn't go on long enough?

Why should I pick a champion who will be shitty in lane for a 'possible' late game buff when I have champs like Raka and Nami who I know will do a much better job all game? If these changes go through with no tweaking I feel that Sona will become obsolete. People complained that she was strong and instead of trying out some light power nerfs Riot is going ham and nerfing everything she has into the ground for the whole beginning of the game when your adc needs you most.

She was powerful, yes, but now she is garbage until level 16 and not every game even lasts long enough to get to lvl 16, an supports usually draw the short end of the xp and levels stick anyways.

VekknaJun 16, 20161 votes

20% free CDR at level 6 that stacks with the CDR in your build sounds pretty good for laning. It's definitely going to feel spammier.

I think more access to spells will be better in some cases. In hard lanes, getting in AA range is very high risk, so it sucks that she won't chunk the adc as hard. On the flipside, I think the changes should give her more versatility overall. Her overall sustain capacity is getting a substantial buff.

AptestJun 17, 20162 votes

The CDR comes at a cost of OOMPH for each individual spell.

This pushes Sona into a "many small spells" play style.

That play style is generally bad.

Specifically for sona: low poke range and high squishyness, coupled with opposing ADC's counter engage potential rising exponentially past level 6.

Therefore this is a nerf.

VekknaJun 17, 20161 votes

I haven't seen the math on how big of a hit her Q took between the base nerf and the ulti scaling. I remember the base nerf not being huge, but do you know the numbers on the net nerf? It didn't seem like her 1-6 poke was impacted much at all, but I want you to tell me if I misunderstood the PBE notes. =)

I think the changes will be a rather large buff overall to her W for lane sustain and early team fighting. The "many small spells" play style is worse in some cases (vs. burst, picks, and for diving, etc) and better in others (vs. poke, for lane/siege sustain, for baron/dragon).

Zyra, for example, has super-garbo base damage on her spells. She just gets a LOT of them, and the plant damage adds up fast. That's why she synergizes so well with Liandry's/Rylai's. I think Sona might end up the same way with her W's synergy with AC, Athene's, and WSB.

AptestJun 17, 20161 votes

yes all the changes are post 6 i.e. less for lane phase.

maybe you are correct. here is my opinions on your various scenarios:

poke: most pokle from mid-lane champions cannot be sustained by supports on their mana pool, specifically if the support or the carry takes a hit. This on account of a mid-laner's poke just hurting too much. poking back is taking a risk which is greater when: 1) your range is low, 2) your poke pattern is unsafe (lulu can EQ combo, sona has to walk to aa range) 3) you're a catch target (one of the champions the other team is happy engaging on) 4) your poke is weak (no threat level = they are happy trading your poke for their poke or for their engage).

siege: you don't have no wave clear so your mana pool isn't working on that front. your poke is dangerous see above so you can't do that either and your sustain vs actual mid-lane champion's poke is till going to be garbage.

skirmish: requires "cc poke". I.E. the ability to constantly put your team out of reach of opponents with repeated CC harass as you skirt the exterior of the fight. I am not sure how strong is sona's kit, specifically her E uptime / strength and E passive uptime / strength - when compared to the opposing support (in this scenario you are in direct competition over who's more disruptive).

ofc i see that on level 16 the CDR on her kit becomes completely absurd and she becomes "urf sona". Not sure if I like that idea but we all know that urf sona is broken so maybe you're right and it's simply a case of sona now having a weak midgame for a monster late game.

Mandang0Jun 16, 20163 votes

I want supports in the game, not mages in support costumes (or tanks, in the case of Tahm).

resumedJun 16, 20161 votes

i bet u just want a soraka in every game because she is your chimera goat waifu

Mandang0Jun 16, 20161 votes

Zyra's my main actually. As much as I like having real diversity in the game, I'm still going to play to win.

Heaven forbid players want champs designed as mages to... be played as mages. Same goes for supports, but most of the time these champs (who can never lane anywhere else) are just inferior alternatives to fake supports.

resumedJun 16, 20161 votes

i don't really get what you're saying

Mandang0Jun 16, 20161 votes

I'm just saying that the champions I play aren't a reflection of the balance I want to see. I play what's strong, and I want buffs to what's not.

The people who were mad about Zyra or Brand's changes are those players who played them as mages. Additionally, the people who like playing the Janna/Sona/Soraka's of the game don't like being pushed out of the only lane they can play by mages and tanks.

Just because Riot turns Zyra or Karma or Brand into a support doesn't mean that it's right - I wouldn't appeal to your "played support 100% of the time" argument in a discussion of players' feelings.

resumedJun 16, 20161 votes

zyra and brand are still played as mages

theyre mages who can be played in the support role

leona being a support doesnt mean shes not a tank

its not like adc where every champion in that role is a guaranteed marksmen

Mandang0Jun 16, 20161 votes

You can't just throw something bot lane and have it become a support. No one's listing the other ranged champs as marksmen when they decide to build AD instead of AP. No one's calling those same ranged champs tanks when they build tanky. Likewise, building a gp10 and a sightstone doesn't make you a support.

"Support" actually DOES have a meaning besides "dude(tte) who lanes with the ADC". It's a class, and it's different from mages and from tanks and the rest... Riot calls them "Enchanters" or something else, but the important part is that they have kits that actually do more than CC+damage, which is what every other class in the game already does.

resumedJun 17, 20161 votes

this is a gross combination of support eliticism and and horrid misunderstanding of the subclass system

there are many different ways of supporting, be it healing like Soraka , locking down enemies like Leona , having stong counter engage like Zyra , buffs like Nami , physically protecting like Braum , having strong pick potential like Blitzcrank , ensuring that the opposing party just wont survive like Veigar , or having strong engage like Thresh

and sometimes they just have metric shit tonnes of utility like Bard

just because not everyone is played like Janna doesnt mean theyre not a support

also just because theyre an enchanter doesnt mean theyre even good in the support role. does this champion mean anything to you? Lulu is JUST BARELY viable as a support.

Mandang0Jun 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

this is a gross combination of support eliticism and and horrid misunderstanding of the subclass system

It's neither of those things and if that's seriously your response, I'm done taking you seriously.

I mean..."Eliticism"? Really?!

resumedJun 17, 20161 votes

well

if it matters

i never took anything you said seriously

VekknaJun 16, 20161 votes

Of the top 10 highest win rate supports, 6 of them can only lane as support.

SOLOQSUPERHEROJun 16, 20162 votes

I personally just miss zyra mid. I had my first penta kill on her.

VekknaJun 16, 20161 votes

You can still play her there. She's just changed from high risk/reward to low risk/reward. Max E first.

SOLOQSUPERHEROJun 16, 20161 votes

Alright, I'll give it a go.

VekknaJun 16, 20161 votes

I always get a lost chapter first back. Then... If enemy team is mostly squishies build luden's If they have lots of healing, I finish morello If they have multiple hp stackers rush liandry's If your laner or 2 other enemies stack MR, rush void staff (eg Graves, Galio)

Standard path (for me) is item 3802 item 3136 item 3020 item 3165 item 1058 either item 3285 or item 3116 item 3151 then the other between luden's/rylai's item 3135

Flat pen early, AP mid, utility/hp late.

If I'm behind and someone on my team is fed, I'll finish Liandry's early, pick up a zzrot mid game, and pretend I'm a Heimer.

Personally, my hardest matchups during laning are Ahri Fizz Ekko Zed (but much easier now) Vladimir Chogath

Skill matchups are Katarina Azir Leblanc Heimerdinger Velkoz Viktor Chogath Malzahar Yasuo Anivia

Easy matchups are AurelionSol Annie Lux Cassiopeia Lissandra Syndra Zilean Viktor

Win early, lose late Chogath Diana Veigar Akali

SOLOQSUPERHEROJun 16, 20161 votes

I used to double dorans into liandrys way back in the day.

VekknaJun 16, 20161 votes

You can still get away with that sometimes. If your team has no tank, a Liandry's rush will help your zoning. It's not always optimal, but it's never bad on Zyra at any point of the game.