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people are forgetting that support is a role, not a type of champion

resumed··87 votes·3,915 views

the only things that require a champion to fulfill the support role is being able to function effectively on a low gold income and being able to do so successfully

you're not going to say that mid lane is only for assassins, because it's not

you're not going to say that top and jungle are only for tanks, because they're not

then why are people so willing to say that the support role is only for enchanters and wardens, when it's not?

if brand isnt a support, then why is he played there more than he's played mid?

if velkoz isn't a support, then why does velkoz support have a higher playrate and similar winrates to many champions for their "correct" roles, like anivia mid and rammus jungle?

another thing, isn't it a double standard to complain about zyra and brand support and also not care about utility midlaners like orianna, zilean or karma mid? i haven't seen anyone complaining about those. they deal tonnes of damage wile also providing peel for the team. wheres the qq threads? why havent people told people who play them to buy a sightstone and stay bot lane?

142 Comments

Iwinatlife4212 votes

I just hate brand bot lane personally because it works well as high pressure. I am a bit of a purist though I play Taric Sona and Nautilus and not much else. Brand is just a pain to deal with. same with annie lux and zyra. I wont say they are not supports but i prefer straight support match ups...except blitz fuck that guy

resumed1 votes

i know everyones got a raging hateboner for brand atm but i probably dont hate brand due to bias because i play champions that work well against him like zyra and soraka, my two most played

midnight oil242 votes

My problem is that the enemy never has a brand or zyra, but whenever I get one of them as my support they take kills that I'm in range to get. Maybe they could give me one of those kills? They've got 9 while I've got 2.

resumed16 votes

the learning curve with zyra and brand is learning how not to take kills

Verdade3 votes

With Zyra i can understand, but Brand? Why? Im not letting someone live because i want to give kill to my incompetent ADC. Like, im not flashing on already secured kill to steal it, but i carry as hard as any ADC in mid/late-game teamfights.

Killing fed ADC is easier, you can just jump at him with several people. Killing fed Brand is very dangerous with multiple people.

Also, when Brand gets ahead it means 99% of the time ADC gets also ahead. Brand is generally more dangerous in blown-out teamfights, so he's getting focused, which means he serves as meat shield for his ADC

Errastas7 votes

Brand and Zyra out dmg adcs early on, they're gonna get kills. At 6 as Zyra, I can 100-0 most adcs on my own pretty easily. I'm there to kill and keep them out of lane, so you can farm in peace, worry about kills later.

Supreme Senpai696 votes

ADCs get CS. The support can either protect the ADC in order to let em get CS safely, or they can go full damage and murder the enemy ADC so that their ally ADC can farm without trouble while the enemy ADC loses CS. Whenever I play support I absolutely take every kill I can. Which is different than KS'ing, like I won't flash+AA just to last hit it, but I'll be damned if the enemy gets away because the ADC couldn't get it in time.

CS is for ADCs but kills are fair game to anyone imo. It doesn't matter who gets it as long as the enemy dies

midnight oil241 votes

While I agree with that in general, I often deal with them taking cs too. One time I got a support who took all cs for the first five minutes then went mid for the rest of the game.

Verdade1 votes

Velkoz support main here.

Im not laning with 0 CS, im leaving all CS to my ADC if things go normally BUT there are situations when im taking CS, and these situations are:

  1. wave is getting pushed into our tower and we are low/dive danger. Im clearing that wave so it's not possible to dive and kill us, OR my turret is already low enough and enemy is pressuring it
  2. my ADC recalls. I just double W next wave, clearing it and thus pushing this minion wave into enemy turret and then recall. This is because it prevents enemy from hitting your turret before you return, unfreezes and resets the lane. Also makes them unable to go dragon because otherwise they'd miss farm, XP and take turret damage
  3. when we are actively hitting enemy turret and there's incoming wave. I do this so that our minions don't take extra damage and focus their attacks at enemy turret, buying us more time and turret damage.
  4. When is my ADC unable to last-hit minion that is second before dying. This happens he's either out of AA range, he's mid-animation or something similar. Minion will die regardless, and because of my superior AA animation i can get the gold instead of wasting it.

Because of these, im maxing W first (unlike 90% of Vel'koz players) in both mid and support role. While i lack poke damage from Q, i gain immense lane control and kill pressure (as W deals much more damage than Q)

Supreme Senpai691 votes

You should probably still max Q or even E honestly, even if I do agree with your points mostly.

Verdade1 votes

I get why would you max Q, but why E?

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Because it's your hard CC so you should be using it more than W. It was more of a "If not Q, then E before W."

Verdade1 votes

Leveling unreliable low-damage high-cd ability that doesn't work alone? Why?

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Support Vel'Koz doesn't really need his W for waveclear

Verdade1 votes

He needs it for kill pressure, waveclear is nice bonus

JQKAndrei1 votes

I hate brand because he's not a support, he couldn't care less if the adc is being engaged or zoned, all he cares is "muh damage is higher" and goes full ap.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

When I play Brand support, it's all about that harass and that sweet, sweet peel.

That and making people regret trying to mess with your ADC. Damage is a CC. It scares people away and shifts focus to you. I'd expect a Brand support to go tankier with RoA with his Rylai's+Liandry's, as well as potentially taking tank items since we have a functional mage in mid (usually).

And penta-assists.

JQKAndrei1 votes

Never seen a brand "support" with RoA. And most of them don't care about the adc.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

Then they aren't a support. They're a mage that didn't get mid and doesn't have the balls to go top lane.

fite me

AttackOnTeemos6 votes

When Blitzcrank was released he was actually a "Bruiser" However the people found out he was a gift in the bottom lane. And all of that was waaaay before people wanted to actually gank junglars in their own area.

Almost every champion that's been released has been found working better in other lanes or builds. Graves rework, he is a junglar and a top. Lulu was made a mid doing season(5?) I believe. Most people when they think support they primary think ONLY sightstone. Others just want peel and others just want to make sure they win the lane...

GiveMeUrMilk4 votes

Let's not forget my waifu Vi. Made to be a top laner but far better in the jungle. Blitz was designed as a Top laner iirc, but he functions so much better as a support than as a solo laner.

AttackOnTeemos6 votes

{quoted}

Let's not forget my waifu Vi. Made to be a top laner but far better in the jungle. Blitz was designed as a Top laner iirc, but he functions so much better as a support than as a solo laner.

Only wrong I see in this is that Vi is my waifu >_> Get it right.

GiveMeUrMilk2 votes

LIES! She is mine

LankPants6 votes

The opposite also applies. Riot has consistently gutted Zyra mid in favour of Zyra support, Zyra isn't a support, she's a mage. The community clearly wants Zyra mid to be playable, hell more would prefer Zyra to be a pure mid than a pure support, or even a primary support at all based off of a poll that was taken during the MYMU.

The reason why I despise Zyra support and want Riot to shift Zyra into mid is because I know as long as this bastardisation of a champion I used to enjoy exists I'll probably never be able to play Zyra mid and expect top have a decent chance of winning.

Verdade2 votes

How would you fix her mid lane? I mean, look at Velkoz , he's both very good MID and SUPPORT. What makes Zyra worse at being mid laner and better at being support?

LankPants1 votes

What makes Zyra worse at being mid laner and better at being support?

Quite simply her bases and ratios are out of whack. The main problem is her plant damage at 109+(0.15AP). In order to double the damage her plants do at level 18 Zyra needs 760AP, which is an absurd number. Her other AP ratios are also a little low, but this is the main problem. Other similar abilities like Hiem's turrets on their basic shot (227AP to double) and Malz's crabs (400AP to double all damage, 150 to double magic) scale several times better than Zyra's plants.

How would you fix her mid lane?

This probably isn't a cure all, but I'd start by reducing Zyra's plant's base damage from 24+5/level to 24+3/level. Then I'd buff the AP ratio up to 0.25 from 0.15. This is worse until if you have less than 20xlv AP, 360 at 18. This would mean an early game Zyra would have similar damage but if she doesn't itemise for AP it will fall off like other mages.

From there I'd look at possibly buffing per level damage or AP ratios on Q as well, since at best the plant change would most likely make Zyra garbage (although equally garbage, so there's that) as a mid and a support if implemented alone. An increase in base in the order of 25+35/lv to 20+40/lv and an increase in ratio from 0.6 to 0.7 would probably be ideal here. I'd also put back the old circle Q, because it was just better to use and felt fairer to play against, so that's really just a free win.

Verdade2 votes

Problem with her plants lies in their placement AND low visibility. I mean, Heimer has to be very close to spawn turret, Zyra can do it at 1k range. Her ability to spawn plants is basically limitless when compared to Heimer who has pretty high CDs.

So we'd need to

  1. make plants fewer and stronger
  2. give her seeds arm-time so she can't cast them mid-animation

THEN we can buff her ratios.

Dêcoy5 votes

Orianna "Utility midlaner"

wtf I just read? XD

resumed47 votes

sorry for saying a champion designed to buff her allies and zone her enemies has utility

MinaZer011 votes

To be exact Orianna is a utility, control, nuke mage literally, in that order. She changes abit as the game progresses like vayne, she an adc then becomes an assassin and a tank shredder.

Mhihnj2 votes

isn't one of the adc's jobs to shred tanks.

MinaZer01 votes

not particularly because the main goal is just to kill the dmg dealers and worry of the tanks after, shredding the tank isnt that useful in the large scheme of things if you just wiped the enemy team and your team has 4 members alive and they have a tank left alive that cant do much dmg to defend your team from pushing.

GiveMeUrMilk12 votes

She is a utility mid laner though. A zone control mage with shields, a speed boost/slow, large AoE stun? Yeah she qualifies as a utility mid laner. granted, not to the same effect as someone like lulu or Karma mid, but she still has more utility than the average mid laner.

midnight oil242 votes

Exactly. I only play her mid, and she's a great yasuo killer. She's all about zoning, and the shield is more to just move the ball to another focus.

RogueWill2 votes

she works nice as support if you invest heavily on mana and mana regen runes and masteries...although that ends up being suboptimal damage wise and that's why she gets outshined by lulu or karma or even morg as suppport

Rebonack4 votes

In other words, there is a difference between lane positions and champion archetypes.

Adriqnohee4 votes

The top lane needs someone that can stay in relatively safety in a long lane and that needs minimal jungle interference, so that their jungler can focus on the lanes closer to the dragon pit thus its populated by tanks and duelist, the mid lane is a short lane right in the middle of the map, so its perfect for roamers and squishy characters that are susceptible to ganks, its mostly populated by mages and assassins, the jungle doesn't discriminate, anything that can clear it and help the team contest objectives is good to go, ADCs are gold dependent but don't care too much about levels, so they can afford to share their experience, but, supports are the fifth player in a game with four sources of gold income, anything that don't need XP or gold to be useful goes here.

HazyCloud74 votes

Zyra is played almost exclusively as a support and you still have people saying she's not a support.

LankPants7 votes

I'd advise you to read through this if you want to see how Zyra players actually feel about her. Zyra only being playable as a support was a massive failure in her rework.

HazyCloud71 votes

Just to clarify I'm talking solely about her current state, Zyra is a support first and foremost at the moment. Intended or not, this is the current result. Just as Vi was intended to be a top laner but ended up becoming a jungler.

Whether her rework was a failure because she doesn't see much play mid is a different discussion, one that I'd be open to hearing but it doesn't mean she's not a support at the moment.

LankPants1 votes

Whether her rework was a failure is a different discussion entirely.

Just going to point out that 20thCenturyFaux said this.

Update here! We’ve done some research and had a fair number of internal discussions on the topic, and we wanted to post about changes in our thinking. The #1 clearest thing that’s come from the conversation is that there’s a lot of passion about where Zyra wants to go and everyone wants the freedom to make their own way on the rift, without feeling like someone's telling them what lane they should be in. To that end, we think it isn’t smart to aim balance toward a specific lane. We feel we should update Zyra as a whole, not any given role for her.

We want to improve the experience of playing Zyra without mind toward lane. When we update a champion, we try to preserve what’s cool and unique about a character—a lot of what makes Zyra cool and unique has found success in bottom lane and we don’t want to remove it. That’s always been our aim; extending that to balance philosophy is a bridge too far. In the end, that’s what these direction threads are meant for—to catch stuff like this and fix it.

We’ve seen the poll and are doing our own surveys and studies etc, and the main lesson from them is that both roles have lots of players. Our goals for the update are to make Zyra feel more like a plant mage, enhance her strategic role as a counter-initiate mage, and help make her more fun. There’s nothing in there about lane, and it’s not our intent to tell either group where they should or shouldn’t play. Going forward, we’re putting her in more midlane tests and making sure we don’t leave a lane behind.

If you assume this was one of the goals of the rework then it unarguably failed.

Just to clarify I'm talking solely about her current state, Zyra is a support first and foremost at the moment. Intended or not, this is the current result.

Most of the people who say Zyra is not a support are arguing specifically against this mindset. 'It is therefore it should be' is and always has been a poor argument.

HazyCloud71 votes

I'm not disputing that the rework failed, just pointing out that her current state/intended state are two different things.

it seems like we are arguing semantics here at this point. I'm not arguing that the rework accomplished its goals or that she should be a support. I'm saying that whether it was intended or not, she IS primarily a support right now. Riot designs champions but the players define the meta. And sometimes, the way and the role a champion ends up being played in ends up being entirely different than what riot intended. See tank Fizz, tank Ekko, Frozen Mallet tank Yasuo to name a few.

If you or any Zyra player feels that she should be in a spot where she is a lot more viable as a midlaner I'm completely open minded to that opinion.

...why am I not surprised 20thcenturyfaux handled her rework. Same designer behind Leblanc's assassin mage rework.

LankPants3 votes

...why am I not surprised 20thcenturyfaux handled her rework. Same designer behind Leblanc's assassin mage rework.

He also handled Shaco I believe. He has a fairly terrible track record on these reworks.

Jabberwöcky3 votes

top Shen mid Orianna
jung Nautilus
adc Kalista supp Zilean

is one of my fave team comps, plenty of damage and a super amount of CC, Utility, tank.

Ori puts her ball on Naut, Kalista throws her ult on Naut, and throws him into a fight, but not before zilean throws his bombs on naut, and even more so, after the throw, shen ults ontop of naut as well, making him an unkillable, suicidal, AoE bomb that will CC everythign to death with oris and zileans abilities.

Where im getting with this, is its more about team work, than it is about just doing damage, as long as whatever it is your playing, can contribute to the team, im 100% fine with it.

ScissorsNstuff2 votes

support is both a role and a champion type

nobody of importance has forgotten this.

though I guess there is a new classification system?

Abyssphere2 votes

Yes, there is. And "support" is not part of that classification system.

Bârd1 votes

A support champion is one whose primary focus is to put their allies ahead and keep it that way.

Brand Blitzcrank Zyra do this by killing the enemy and snowballing.

Taric Soraka Zilean do this by making their carries hard to kill.

Ivern Nunu do the job of a support even when they have money.

6Sfool1 votes

I pretty much agree, but brand (and somewhat zyra) is a special case. He ends up taking many the kills by nature of his delayed damage, and then he often outshines the adc in terms of damage later in the game. He gives up all the farm, sure, but he supplements raher than complements the adc's damage, making it less worthwile to kill the adc, but not really any harder. Most supports make it harder and more worthwile to kill the adc because they're best suited to helping a ranged carry.

I'm not knocking his effectiveness or legitimacy, but a team with a brand support does not truly have a support, but has an nonstandard comp based on having each champion able to function on their own.

Verdade3 votes

Brand enforces "guerilla tactics" on enemy team, they just can't make 4/5man deathballs and hope Brand doesn't nuke tyou. Also Brand changes priorities in enemy targeting, usually it's "kill ADC, then mid, then clear up the rest", with Brand it is "Kill that goddamn Brand, then ADC, then mid, and then we die because there were too much threats unchecked"

ImmortalBloodCY1 votes

I can agree here.

Stupid Brand Ulti....

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