zed has a 60% banrate accross all* elos

resumed·Mar 19, 2016·189 votes·45,700 views

nerfs when

*59.9 in bronze, 62 in silver, 63 in gold, 62 in plat, and 59.5 in diamond

edit:

because people like to tell me banrate doesnt mean everything, i'm going to address it before people post it again

zed has an extremely high winrate, banrate, AND pickrate consistent within all elos

he is pick or ban

edit2:

since meddler commented everyone who would drink zeds bathwater has flocked here and to this day i am plagued by zed mains who think hes balanced

edit3:

and to be honest

i would drink zeds bathwater

hes kind of hot

428 Comments

RiotMeddlerMar 19, 2016129 votes

Usual disclaimer: Win rates, pick rates and ban rates are useful information, but we don't believe they should drive balance decisions. They should certainly be part of the conversation though, particularly when broken down into more applicable stats (e.g. win rate for experienced players over sufficient patches to generate a large sample size).

With that out of the way we do think Zed's too strong at present. The things we're currently looking at as problems to address are his damage early and insufficient windows when W is down for his opponents to play around. Possible solutions there right now look like lower Q damage below rank 5 (55-235 instead of 75-235?) and higher W CD below rank 5 (22-14 instead of 18-14?).

ModKnightsKemplarMar 19, 20169 votes

Wonderful, because I didn't agree until I played against him a little yesterday. His early damage is indeed ridiculous. Keep it up Meddler, and thanks for taking the time to drop in!

Sneakyy XDMar 19, 201616 votes

{quoted}

Usual disclaimer: Win rates, pick rates and ban rates are useful information, but we don't believe they should drive balance decisions.

And yet you guys always use win rates, pick rates, and ban rates as evidence or reason for a champion being OP

Every single time one of you comments on a champion's balance, it contradicts something you have previously said or done. If you don't want those things to influence balance decisions, fine. If you do, fine. You can't have both, though. Pick one and stick with it.

RiotMeddlerMar 19, 201633 votes

If you want a bit more detail on how we approach using stats this article's a good starting point:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/data-and-champion-balance-part-1

I'm not saying stats aren't relevant, but that you get better balance by using them appropriately as one of the factors you consider.

lolptwoMar 19, 20164 votes

No offence Meddler but those Nerfs to Zed will mean Zed will never see another pick in Competitive play High elo again. Simply because other Assassins are safer, and better (ex: LB). Zed does need some nerfs but as a high elo player please do not make drastic nerfs because of the whining of low elos on the boards, next they will have you nerf Cannon Minions because they cannot last hit.

Zed is safe right now, however reducing his stats nearly across the board like that will make him obsolete in high elo.

Also why make a new item for assassins and then just massively nerf Zed? Also as a game designer please consider that people are taking "Feast" and |Recovery" as mastery trees right now meaning that MASSIVE window and pretty large early game deduction you're giving him will mean people will mostly be able to remain at full health against Zed making him extremely weak and pretty much irrelevant unless someone makes a huge mistake(low elos always make huge mistakes against Zed which is why they are complaining) I called this happening, you guys didn't listen.

Sincerely, A Diamond 3 ADC main.

LankPantsMar 20, 201647 votes

No offence Meddler but those Nerfs to Zed will mean Zed will never see another pick in Competitive play High elo again.

Good

NeverClarkolasMar 19, 20169 votes

Thats exactly what everyone has been saying for a very long time. Thank you.

HauntMar 19, 201661 votes

{quoted}

Usual disclaimer: Win rates, pick rates and ban rates are useful information, but we don't believe they should drive balance decisions. They should certainly be part of the conversation though, particularly when broken down into more applicable stats (e.g. win rate for experienced players over sufficient patches to generate a large sample size).

With that out of the way we do think Zed's too strong at present. The things we're currently looking at as problems to address are his damage early and insufficient windows when W is down for his opponents to play around. Possible solutions there right now look like lower Q damage below rank 5 (55-235 instead of 75-235?) and higher W CD below rank 5 (22-14 instead of 18-14?).

Hey Meddler, as someone who has played up to Master Tier with Zed, I just want to give you some insight on what I think about that nerf and what could be done, just some food for thought from someone that knows the in's and outs of him.

The Q damage thing is good, I'd say that is pretty solid. Question though: If you nerf the damage on the Q, are you going to up the damage a BIT on when the Q goes through minions? Because early on currently, if it goes through minions, it isn't doing very much damage. If this is the point, then by all means go for it, I'm just making sure you realize it will be doing little to nothing to enemies if it hits a minion, which is fine I guess.

The W nerf I don't feel is the right way to go about it, but let me explain:

Zed's W already has a decently long CD tied to it, another thing about it is that it IS the skill you max LAST, so it is always on a high CD until later on. Whenever I'm against the good players in ranked games, they actually know how to take advantage on Zed when his W is on CD, if I use it under tower I'm already getting ganked. If I use it for harass, I'm already getting harassed back because after I use it I can't retaliate unless I can go for a kill. In my opinion, I feel the W CD is already long enough. Maybe you could elaborate on why you feel it needs to be higher? His opponent already has 18 seconds to do whatever to him, so I'm curious.

As for what I would do:

If I was to nerf Zed, my nerfs would consist of possibly making it so that Zed needs to hit a FULL combo (W E and Q) on them for maximum damage. Maybe make the q do less on it's own, but have the combo actually do meaningful damage, making it so he can't just harass without burning an escape, and making it so his harass is on a much higher CD if he want's it to do meaningful damage.

If I didn't use that for a nerf, I'd say to change how his ult works again with Shadow placement. I would have to think hard about this one, however. How it stands currently is very frustrating for the person being ulted because of how he can just port back, on the other hand Zed used to be a suicide bomber with his old ult, but it was way too easy to kill someone with it, and the damage was near unavoidable. Maybe try something else with his ult shadow placement, or how it works?

That's just my 2 cents on the proposed changes, and some of my own. Hope you take all of this into some possible consideration.

KSHarrisonMar 19, 201619 votes

Awesome reply, knowledgeable and not overbearingly aggressive like so many other suggestions, with good insight for other readers too.

LankPantsMar 20, 201613 votes

The Q damage thing is good, I'd say that is pretty solid. Question though: If you nerf the damage on the Q, are you going to up the damage a BIT on when the Q goes through minions? Because early on currently, if it goes through minions, it isn't doing very much damage. If this is the point, then by all means go for it, I'm just making sure you realize it will be doing little to nothing to enemies if it hits a minion, which is fine I guess.

I'm fairly certain it's meant to be a nerf to his waveclear. Upping the damage after the first hit would negate this change.

Personally I'd say it's his wave clear that needs to take some hits. There's no reason why an assassin, yet alone a manaless one like Zed should have such great waveclear. A traditional weakness of assassins is that mages can shove them back, Zed on the other hand pushes mages back, which is just stupid.

I'd personally say increase the damage drop-off on his Q against creeps, reduce his E damage VS creeps and remove his ability to proc passive on creeps. For the reduced Q damage VS creeps this would mean after the first hit his Q deals something like 40% to additional creeps and 60% to additional champs. For the E I'd say around 75-80% damage VS creeps.

These changes would hurt Zeds waveclear and make it possible for a mage to actually push him under tower, which I feel they should be able to do since they're investing a long term resource while Zed doesn't.

Voluug13Mar 19, 201611 votes

What Zed needs is a less one sided laning.

Because that is what his laning is, unless you play a Zed counterpick to deny interaction in lane, he simply dominates the lane against everyone else thanks to:

Lack of meaningful window to punish errors
Safe laning
Push potential way stronger that many mages, and on energy.
Energy based poke that can be placed behind your minion wave.
Way too much synergy with TLD, lack of meaninful laning resource means he can get TLD proccs much easier and frecuently that other midlaners.
Strong earlygame itemization, specially anti AP
Zhonia's nerfs making it an even worse item to rush, making counterbuilding a nightmare for most ap midlaners.

All together makes Zed one of the most unfun, one-sided and frustating lanes on the game.

Specially his R that is extremly hard to play around for most of the midlane rooster. Very few champions have the CC lockdown, damage and tankiness to punish terribad Zed dives before they press R to escape.

Pika310Mar 19, 201610 votes

Screw what ban rate says about balance. I feel ban rate says a lot more about a champion's "feel" when playing against them. With a 60% banrate, that means a very large chunk of the community feels playing against Zed is a toxic experience they don't want to deal with. Is this a result of the champ being OP? Maybe.

I can tell you myself, I'd be amongst those banning Zed if I didn't already have to ban Rengar 100% of the time and Xin Zhao right after him.

Knight DevoutMar 19, 20162 votes

Since you mentioned Zed, there are many others assassins who happen to perform well even with a tanky builds that usually involes Maw and Sterakk. How do you feel about this? I think that it was back then when Yasuo was released that you mentioned how you still want high risk/high reward champion to feel useful for their team even when playing from behind (in terms of gold/exp), but from what I see these kinds of builds aren't picked when lagging behind, rather they are used to circumvent the class weaknesses of being squishy. They do drop off in damage but for the midgame they seem to perform still enough well to do their job properly on squishies. You recently addressed Fiora and Master Yi with a power shift from base skill damage to scalings. How do you think a similar change work on Zed and perhaps on other overperforming assassins?

AbyssphereMar 20, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Knight Devout,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OsFkRcjW,comment-id=0016001d,timestamp=2016-03-19T23:09:03.569+0000)

Since you mentioned Zed, there are many others assassins who happen to perform well even with a tanky builds that usually involes Maw and Sterakk. How do you feel about this? I think that it was back then when Yasuo was released that you mentioned how you still want high risk/high reward champion to feel useful for their team even when playing from behind (in terms of gold/exp), but from what I see these kinds of builds aren't picked when lagging behind, rather they are used to circumvent the class weaknesses of being squishy. They do drop off in damage but for the midgame they seem to perform still enough well to do their job properly on squishies. You recently addressed Fiora and Master Yi with a power shift from base skill damage to scalings. How do you think a similar change work on Zed and perhaps on other overperforming assassins?

I expect that they're expecting the Titanic Hydra AD nerf to take care of tank assassins like Zed. If that doesn't do it, the Hexdrinker/Maw nerfs they're expecting to make in a couple of patches should help out a bit more.

InivtesPreezeMar 19, 20163 votes

Remove his waveclear so he can be punished for being an assassin in lane, and not a generalist.

There's no reason he should be able to clear so easily as a melee AD with ranged mage-like harass, clear, and mobility.

gottrjrMar 19, 20168 votes

{quoted}

Usual disclaimer: Win rates, pick rates and ban rates are useful information, but we don't believe they should drive balance decisions. They should certainly be part of the conversation though, particularly when broken down into more applicable stats (e.g. win rate for experienced players over sufficient patches to generate a large sample size).

With that out of the way we do think Zed's too strong at present. The things we're currently looking at as problems to address are his damage early and insufficient windows when W is down for his opponents to play around. Possible solutions there right now look like lower Q damage below rank 5 (55-235 instead of 75-235?) and higher W CD below rank 5 (22-14 instead of 18-14?).

Zed is too strong at present? Really? Couple patches ago I remember somebody saying Zed wasn't strong enough. Then you create an item that works really well on him to buff him a bit AND NOW he is too strong. Whatever numbers you are using to drive balance decisions are clearly not the correct ones. Despite your make believe balance numbers the community has been telling you he is too strong ... for ... farking ... ever. How about those numbers.?..?

Lithium RosaMar 20, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Usual disclaimer: Win rates, pick rates and ban rates are useful information, but we don't believe they should drive balance decisions. They should certainly be part of the conversation though, particularly when broken down into more applicable stats (e.g. win rate for experienced players over sufficient patches to generate a large sample size).

With that out of the way we do think Zed's too strong at present. The things we're currently looking at as problems to address are his damage early and insufficient windows when W is down for his opponents to play around. Possible solutions there right now look like lower Q damage below rank 5 (55-235 instead of 75-235?) and higher W CD below rank 5 (22-14 instead of 18-14?).

I don't have a problem with his burst, like that's what Assassins supposed to, but what the actual fuck is his ridiculous range? 900 range at main skill with a possible range of 1600? Are you kidding me? This is a melee assassin? Who already has tons of mobility? Hell he outranges a huge part of mages.

Nanuk PihoqahiakMar 20, 20163 votes

Could you maybe look at his absurd waveclear? He effortlessly last hits under a turret due to his passive and will push waves on cooldown using his abilities. It's rare that a Zed will miss any farm unless he's asleep at the wheel. It seems counter-intuitive that he not only has good roam, but amazing push as well that comes at no real cost.

SlampieceHawkeMar 19, 201636 votes

upvote this comment if you hate yasuo

resumedMar 19, 201618 votes

REAL YAS HATE HOURS

SLAM THAT MFKING LIKE BUTTON

Heckin SupportMar 19, 20169 votes

I have a friend who plays Yasuo, and Yasuo is definately my #1 most hated champ. And everytime I'm against a yas, a yas is on my team, or he plays yas, I always make an effort to talk about how bs and overloaded his kit is.

Blackstone01Mar 19, 20165 votes

Same, and to add to that I show literally no mercy, unlike with other champs (except zed, I hate him too). Yasuo was DCed for the first 5 minutes? He's dead when he gets to lane. Yasuo is 0/20? Better make that 0/21. Yasuo obviously DCed? Better help him get back to fountain.

Very Hard EngageMar 19, 201617 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slampiece Hawke,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OsFkRcjW,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-03-19T19:10:41.086+0000)

upvote this comment if you hate yasuo

totally biased, hateful, ambiguous comment which promotes absolutely nothing.....

count me in.

J EevoMar 19, 201617 votes

It's less of "holy shit he's op better ban" and more the lines of "I ain't dealing with that shit, let's spare a ban"

He's really infuriating to play against with his laning being one of the best.

DoctorFunguyMar 19, 201610 votes

nah man we gotta nerf champs that counter him

like lulu

Only Play DariusMar 19, 201610 votes

Ever played Zed against a Lulu? He literally cannot do** ANYTHING** when she is nearby

TarynMar 19, 201613 votes

Good, someone needs to show him what it feels like for once.

SimpumbaMar 19, 20167 votes

As a zed main, he's so easy to counter, but he's like fizz and people don't know how to beat him. Honestly take summoner 3 rush qss or zhonyas, and if you die then he just outplayed you or you misplayed. I can NEVER kill my opponent when they used a well timed exhaust, when he ults you just use it, he literally does no damage then.

resumedMar 19, 201616 votes

ZED ISNT OP YOU JUST HAVE YOU ALTER YOUR ENTIRE BUILDPATH AND FORCE SEVERAL ENEMY TEAM MEMBERS TO ITEMIZE SPECIFICALLY AGAINST HIM

what

Devo HesMar 19, 201610 votes

You're actually supposed to base your entire build path and itemization for the team you are facing....

YumaS2AstralMar 20, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devo Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OsFkRcjW,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2016-03-19T20:17:16.552+0000)

You're actually supposed to base your entire build path and itemization for the team you are facing....

I think the main problem is that against Zed, you in fact need to build Zhonya. The problem is that almost all mages cannot afford to build Zhonya as a first item because other items are usually more important for them to rush. This is especially in the case of mana-based mages which need mana/mana regeneration items to cover their needs. They can't afford to rush Zhonya, but are forced to do so because of Zed. They can still ignore Zhonya and build their core items regardless, but this means Zed has a lot more kill potential on them, which means they are at the risk of feeding.

Generally, counterbuilding is healthy if you are not forced to lose any stats when doing that. Against Zed, however, this is not the case. Most mages are forced to lose CDR/mana regeneration to rush Zhonya. This makes them unable to compete with Zed's waveclear potential, as most of the mage's waveclear cost a lot of mana. This means that even if Zed is unable to kill them due to Zhonya, he can still outfarm them, push them under tower, and roam freely. This puts mages into a situation where they are unable to do much against Zed.

There are also other problems. The first is that Zhonya by itself is an extremely expensive item with an horrible buildpath means that rushing it will be a pain for most mages and by the time that you complete it, Zed will probably have outfarmed you a lot and even killed you. And lastly, Zed himself does not need to worry, he can just build a Maw of Malmortius and do not care about what the enemy mage can do against him. Oh, and Hexdrinker by itself already protects him from mages, while Seeker's Armguard still don't protect you from Zed.

My Waifu VanillaMar 19, 201614 votes

Because not having to change anything and being able to build the same item and use the same spells and do everything the same is great game design.

You sound like one of those people that takes Ignite midlane against an Assassin you have NO kill potential on and then complain that they killed you and that there was "nothing you could've done about it"

AbyssphereMar 20, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OsFkRcjW,comment-id=000b00000002,timestamp=2016-03-19T21:19:33.760+0000)

Because not having to change anything and being able to build the same item and use the same spells and do everything the same is great game design.

You sound like one of those people that takes Ignite midlane against an Assassin you have NO kill potential on and then complain that they killed you and that there was "nothing you could've done about it"

This argument comes up so often and I don't get it. Altering build paths is something everyone should be doing in every game but there are occasions where you put yourself on the back foot to do it and that's less good. Zed swapping a Serrated rush for Hexdrinker is cool, it makes sense against AP. A mage swapping Morello for Athene's if they're against a threatening mage is great. A support rushing Sightstone versus a ganking jungler or leaving it a tad later versus a farming jungler is great. A bulky top laner against an AP tank/mage top can rush Spectre's, or against an AD they can rush Warden's Mail, etc. The important thing to note here is that few trade offs are made. The top laner is happy with either Spectre's or Warden's because they do the job you need them to do at that stage of the game - you're not pissed off that you can't itemise some other form of bulk because you don't need it. The mage isn't (too) pissed off about having to buy Chalice instead of Idol because it's still mana regen and they want that anyway. Zed is happy with Hexdrinker becaue he's still getting AD and that's all he needs to worry about.

Then you get to mage vs Zed. You get something you don't want at that point of the game (AP without mana regen and CDR), which denies you of something you very much need to do what you're expected to (mana for waveclearing and trading back with the enemy laner) and the reward is... that Zed has to work slightly harder to murder you. I don't mind swapping Ignite with Exhaust and stuff like that but for a lot of mages not rushing mana regen is a serious hindrance and in the end it's essentially being done just so that you have some chance of surviving Zed. Seeker's doesn't reduce his kill threat to zero, and he can ult twice in the cooldown of Exhaust. His late game also frankly isn't bad enough to justify ruining his enemy laner's laning phase.

If itemising against enemy champions was such a painful experience in other class or champion matchups then I'd be fine but mages are the only class in the game reliant on buying non-combat stats (mana) early and that means they're the only class that misses out on something they need if they choose to itemise against their enemy laner. That's always going to feel unfair for the person having to ignore mana and go for Seeker's because... it just objectively is unfair. It only happens to them, there's nothing comparable.

If there was a mana regen + armor item that built into an AP + CDR + MP5 item then I think itemising against Zed would be healthy and justifiable as counterplay but until such convenient itemisation exists it's always going to be a one-sided trade in his favour. And you can't expect people to be OK with that.

DumplingChowMar 20, 20161 votes

Late game, Zed statistically has a worse chance of winning the game. IIFC there was a reddit post talking about how 30 min. or so is the optimal time to end games with Zed. After this point, people start finishing their qss and tankier items, so it becomes incredibly dangerous for Zed to go in the later the game progresses. Not saying his late game is terrible, but since he has the slowest combo/damage output out of all the assassins, he's at much more risk attempting to kill enemies. Laning phase can be pretty oppressive from LVL 3+, I admit, so the correct nerf would be to reduce Q damage at early levels. Nerfing his W would be too much, as it's already on a huge cooldown. His ultimate is fine as it is, as the past nerfs to it were more than enough.

AbyssphereMar 20, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Late game, Zed statistically has a worse chance of winning the game. IIFC there was a reddit post talking about how 30 min. or so is the optimal time to end games with Zed. After this point, people start finishing their qss and tankier items, so it becomes incredibly dangerous for Zed to go in the later the game progresses. Not saying his late game is terrible, but since he has the slowest combo/damage output out of all the assassins, he's at much more risk attempting to kill enemies. Laning phase can be pretty oppressive from LVL 3+, I admit, so the correct nerf would be to reduce Q damage at early levels. Nerfing his W would be too much, as it's already on a huge cooldown. His ultimate is fine as it is, as the past nerfs to it were more than enough.

I realise that his late is worse than his early/mid, I just don't think the drop off towards the late game he experiences is steep enough to justify the insane early. Zed has a couple of massive flaws late game that could make you think he's worthless late (the hard counter situations of QSS/Zhonya's are almost unique to him), but they don't actually hold him back too much, they just restrict him. He's still a fantastic duelist against particular champions and if he decides to splitpush he can output a lot of pressure.

Obviously none of this is really new, he's being nerfed for a reason after all. But I really do think Zed's late game weakness is heavily overstated.

PowderkeggMar 19, 20166 votes

What's your point?

resumedMar 19, 201642 votes

nerfs when

Babo MigugMar 19, 20165 votes

Ban rate doesn't really mean anything especially public win rates/ban rates. So easy to skew.

resumedMar 19, 201631 votes

kench got nerfed when his winrate was 47%

zeds winrate is 52% in gold+ and his pickrate is huge despite his high banrate

zed is broken

Babo MigugMar 19, 20164 votes

If zeds broken then so is urgot. And I guess rammus has been broken for 4 years since hes got the highest win rate in every elo for 4 years. Like I said public win rate hardly means anything. If zed was broken he would be constantly pick ban and played in the lcs but hes not.

resumedMar 19, 201627 votes

i dont think your statistics are accurate

YCitizenSnipsYMar 19, 20165 votes

It actually means a lot. Unlike the circle jerkers on these boards who just pull statements out of their ass on what people do an don't like in the game, this is real proof that a large majority of players aren't enjoying facing Zed right now.

EndlessSorcererMar 19, 20166 votes

Or don't trust their allies not to feed him.

Honestly, I think that's the only reason I ban anyone who doesn't specifically counter my preferred pick.

Magnum MackMar 19, 20165 votes

Dr Mundo, Jax, Fiora and Vayne would like to talk about the ban rate. And why even bother banning zed when Talon is back too?

This is why we need more than just 3 bans per team.

"Dude, they banned zed again. I'm gonna go talon or maybe katarina."

"They banned Tahm Kench. Guess I can go volibear or malphite or trundle."

"No jax? Kayle can top too then and abuse that rageblade thing."

There's just not enough bans per game to really do anything with.

Seriously, there's ALWAYS another similar pick to choose from so bans just don't do anything except show what's already broken. I see jax, dr mundo, volibear, tahm kench, lulu and kog'maw banned almost every game. When bans are like this something should PROBABLY be done.

DrehirthMar 19, 201610 votes

ALOT of those are a complete waste for bans.. I cringe hard when I see mundo and tahm banned still lol...

KnoyleMar 19, 20165 votes

I mean some people ban champions purely because they don't want to deal with them. That is what banning was meant to be for not banning something because it's rage tier broken or freelo. Shoot, I'd ban Singed just because he is the embodiment of an annoyance itself.

Zero Skill TankMar 19, 20166 votes

Dr Mundo, Jax, Fiora and Vayne would like to talk about the ban rate.

Because broznies still ban them. All champions with ban rate similar to Zed in plat+ recently were, or are soon going to be, nerfed. meanwhile Zed received excuse for a lovetap and new shiny item.

And why even bother banning zed when Talon is back too?

Talon is not nearly as strong and not nearly as unfun to play against.

Troll for TrumpMar 19, 20166 votes

Talon is EXTREMELY good at crushing people at low elos, and snowballs hard, like pre-rework Darius. But yeah, higher elos know how to play against him better.

YumaS2AstralMar 19, 201611 votes

{quoted}

Talon is EXTREMELY good at crushing people at low elos, and snowballs hard, like pre-rework Darius. But yeah, higher elos know how to play against him better.

Talon has a worse laning phase. He can't poke you from a distance and he actually has a mana bar. Due to this, you can still try to stomp him on lane and render him useless.