flash should have some purpose forced on it

Knight SoIaire ··11 votes·1,497 views

it has like 99.99999% pickrate ?

we already saw this with champions, who tends to do everything good is always better than others even when you nerf him hard ofc you can nerf those champions even harder but at some point they will become minions and be totaly useless

well flash is such a case, it does everything good so it stays op even when it has 2x the cooldown other spells have

and the thing is that we need flash to stay, it impacted our champion ballance but i think that flash needs to be either changed, or tweaked in a way that limits the amount of scenarion its usefull in

lets say that we make it a gapcloser/escape only spell or juke only spell or wallhopping only spell or any combination of those that does not involve all of them at once

but as far as flash is everything and probably more it is a problem, especialy when even kassadin picks up flash, kalista picks up flash

it doesnt matter if you can just hop from one end of the map to the other every 2 seconds, you will still take flash

40 Comments

HeraldOne4 votes

[deleted]

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

Remove Flash from the game and suddenly anyone who can blink/dash/wallhop becomes 100% pick or ban.

thats why this is a thread aplauding for riot to change flash so it has less funcionality instead of removing it

you used syndra as an example but what about darius, he will barely get a chance to even hit lee sin once, not to mention ranged champions with any sort of cc or mobility, not to mention kalista

flash needs to be kept because riots ballancing fails and all of its flaws are kept hidden or at least reduced by flash, but flash cant be the be all end all summmoner spell

the next thingthat lol's ballance is evolwing meaning that the mminute flash is removed all mobile champions get nerfed to match their map pressure/jukiing capability (just a counter argument to you, not realy important since i dont find it a good way, entire ballance would be in pieces for long time)

SEKAI4 votes

Other than the fellas who need Ghost as their core like say Hec or Olaf, or if you're heading top lane while gearing for that lane and map presence you run Teleport.

Otherwise everyone runs Flash in this game, which is stupid and should have been addressed ages ago.

They successfully removed the Ignite every game phenomenon, which I applaud them for that, it's about time for the next step.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

top lane while gearing for that lane and map presence you run Teleport

well there is the thing that ower 50% of those cases its tp+flash not tp instead of flash, but toplane is safety oriented place, many champions played there competetively have some form of additional escape to back it up, so then they can drop that flash

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Changing Ignite worked because it's solely damage.

Power creep is easier to address than mobility creep. If you don't have mobility, Flash is necessary or else you WILL be camped all game.

Sire Hippington4 votes

I actually see no problem in removeing Flash. Sure, there will be some tewaks needed and the overall balance gets a bit shaken up, but thats what happens on every bigger change, so on every preseason. The problem with flash compared to other summoners is that it has a extremly clear usecase. U rarly wonder if it would have been better to flash or not, u usually know the instant u use it that it either saves your sorry as or that you will get a kill. The only inda spray and pray moments are flash engages, but it's still quite predictable what will happen after you flash, makeing it easy to judge whther it's a good idea or not. Most other summoners leave you with far more doubts, as they don't have such a clear instant impact, and they are usually either offensive or defensive, not both at once.

The main argument most people bring for keeping flash is that it's needed to make plays, but i call bullshit. From my experience, both my own games and pro games i watch, Flash is used in ~70% of the time to deny plays.

Copyrat2 votes

Yeah, let's remove Flash and rename mid lane to feed lane.

Sire Hippington2 votes

why so? cause pant cant flash stun you out of the brush anymore? cause vi can't towerdive you and then flash out of turret aggro if she drops low anymore? I hardly need flash mid unless the enemy uses flash to get me, or i missplay badly, in which case a death might actually be deserved.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

I mean, Flash is the only thing saving you from a Zac dive, or a Sion ult. Or a J4 E+Q into ult. Or a Vi Q into ult.

Sire Hippington2 votes

barrier helps alot, cleanse is also a nice option, maybe some other summoners need a small buff, like a 50% aoe slow for 1 sec on cleanse or something, but there are options.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Barrier is really weak currently. And you can't cleanse knock-up, unless I'm mistaken... nor can you cleanse out of J4's circle.

IcyPepper2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mad Rabbit,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OyvrAEv0,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-04-04T15:19:08.671+0000)

Yeah, let's remove Flash and rename mid lane to feed lane.

Or midlaners can, gasp, buy wards and position properly :/

Copyrat1 votes

Yeah, it never happens in the LCS. The midlaner burns his flash, then 20 seconds later, the jungler roams and "First Blood".

If it was simply a matter of wards and proper positioning, junglers would never roam to mid, and ADCs would be alone in lane. You can ward the bush, and the gank could come from the path leading to your blue, or behind your turret, or from your chicken camp.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

I actually see no problem in removeing Flash.

long term ? no problem

but if you look at the instant effects of flash remowall it will be a nightmare

the problem that i think completly removes removing flash as an option is the fact that league needs continuity, it cant just be completly broken down to get fixed at its core

thats why riot wont ever do it

Sire Hippington2 votes

i don't think the changes are to drastic to not do them as te big pre-season change. It's not really on a bigger scale than support+pen+tankitem rework in pre-S3, or the resent jungle changes

Raxicor1 votes

I feel like removing flash will hurt other summoner spells more than help them. Like if you removed Flash then everyone will auto-use Ghost(which can be used as an engage/disengage), remove Ghost then everyone will take Heal(for both the heal and burst of mobility) and etc.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Except that Ghost doesn't instantly drop tower aggro. Or get you over walls. Or get you out of J4's ult. And the enemy will see you coming. And MS debuffs affect it. And since it's a percent increase to MS, those with higher existing MS will get more benefit out of it.

Not all mobility is created equal. Ghost has its uses, true, but they are different than Flash, and trying to use Ghost as only a Flash substitute will get you killed.

Sire Hippington2 votes

ghost isn't a instant escape, it needs more planing around rather than a reactive savety net. In alot off situations you might prefer heal or cleanse. Other summoners would need a bit rebalanceing, but non of them is inherently broken by it's mechanic so it will always outshine all other summoners in nearly every situation as flash does right now.

Raxicor1 votes

I didn't say it was? I was just pointing out that flat out removing commonly picked spells only makes people choose another spell to spam to death. Then they'll want it buffed/nerfed/removed and move on to the next one. The cycle already happens with champions on these boards.

Sire Hippington2 votes

while some might still complain, it would only be subjektive complaints and not an objectivly overhelming balance issue. >90% pickrate since ever suggests that flash beeing off balance i's not only a subjective opinion of some people that want to cry on the forums.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Flash is the only thing keeping immobile champions from getting stomped by mobility. After all, mobility skills can be used to juke, to wall hop, to gap-close, or escape. It would be ridiculous to limit flash to one or two uses, while Lucian's dash/Nid's Pounce/LB's Distortion can be used for all those things.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

Flash is the only thing keeping immobile champions from getting stomped by mobility.

well thats both flash and their current ballance who is creating the situation

but the current ballance is also shaped by flash existance

what i want to aim at is keeping flash core for immobile guys, while making it more obsolete for already mobile guys

so darius will still work thanks to flash, but kassadin will waste a summoner spell slot for picking it

as do riot loves to say it, keeping the core identity intact while still nerfing it

also to clarify, flash isnt like keeping the mobile ones from stomping the immobile ones, in my opinion its exactly reverse we cant put it up in 2 ways way one: immobile guts get flash so they dont get this much compensation for not being mobile way two:immobile guys have flash so mobile guys dont need to pay for their mobility too hard

if we substract flash from the entire situation then the ballance goes like this immobile champions win all trades so the only case where mobile champions can actualy do something is when they kite them for hours or gang up on them but that isnt realy fun isnt it, so i would like to keep flash, but not as the only summoner spell realy worth picking

Kitten of Evil1 votes

But is it better? If an immobile champ HAS to bring flash, while Kassadin can bring both heal AND ignite? Seems like Kassadin still wins in that situation because now he has two extra abilities rather than just one.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

valid point

this pushes me to the idea of making flash an item (someone suggested it before) then summoner spells are equal on both sides immobile champions already have some compensation in their numbers so they wont get behind for buying the item and whatever mobile guy gets opressive can get his numbers easily reduced in early game

so all the problem that could arise seem easy to solve

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Right, but then supports get screwed there... they can't justify spending gold on flash items.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

yea thats probably true, the problem is the sheer amount of gold support gets, the item drawback wont hurt them

Sire Hippington2 votes

what keeps the mobile one from useing flash to double their mobillity? Lucian dashes over a wall. you flash after him, he flashes over the next one.... Unless you have instant cc+enough burst to kill, flash can always be used to counter flash. which is why it's used by nearly all champions all the time. and vs cc+burst, a mobile champion could take cleanse or barrier, or even exaust to survive the engage and then escape due his natural mobillity. Imobile melees are always at a disadvantage as long as their kit doesn't make up for it, as everything that isn't bound to theri kit can also be abused by mobile champions.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Right, so there isn't really any obvious solution, but further immobilizing immobile champs isn't going to improve things.

Copyrat1 votes

At this point, Flash is so deeply integrated to the game, they might as well make it an innate ability like Recall.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

indeed that wouldnt make a diference

but looking at the amount of mobility on some of our champions i would like it as a decision

i just dont want to see kassadins picking it up because it beats anything else

ZephyrDrake1 votes

this late in the game it's far too late for Riot to do anything about Flash. Changing it to make it more situational is just going to make champions with mobility have that much more of an advantage over immobile champions which will then force them to literally look at every single champion and start changing things left right and center for something that might not even work. At this point it's just not worth the effort and you might as well make "League of Legends 2" since it would be more cost effective and way less disruptive than literally changing everything for something that isn't even guaranteed to succeed

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

then how about pushing flash to be an item ? item with barely any stats that is early accesible but requiring you to commit some gold

champions without mobility have better base stats early so they wouldnt be hurt as much by the buy champions with mobility couldget a tab weaker early so they wouldnt just destroy immobile guys, but would make up for it with stats they buy instead of flash

in the end changing numbers could easily solve any problem that arises, and i thing numbers wouldnt have to change too much

and well the flash stick would get some power too since it costs gold and takes an item slot, the price for creating it would be equalizing mobile and immobile champions, but riot already does that, because they screwed up and immobile champions arent worth it

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OyvrAEv0,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-04-04T20:55:08.269+0000)

then how about pushing flash to be an item ? item with barely any stats that is early accesible but requiring you to commit some gold

champions without mobility have better base stats early so they wouldnt be hurt as much by the buy champions with mobility couldget a tab weaker early so they wouldnt just destroy immobile guys, but would make up for it with stats they buy instead of flash

in the end changing numbers could easily solve any problem that arises, and i thing numbers wouldnt have to change too much

and well the flash stick would get some power too since it costs gold and takes an item slot, the price for creating it would be equalizing mobile and immobile champions, but riot already does that, because they screwed up and immobile champions arent worth it

that will only make things be even more dumb, since it will be the entire "melee vs ranged" thing all over again with the item and not only that champions with mobility that decide to not buy the new Flash item will be ahead of their immobile counterpart since now said immobile champions need to get the item in order to stand a chance against mobile champions. You cannot "change numbers" and hope forcing an entire set of champions to buy a very specific item will solve all your problems that is wishful thinking at best. Not every immobile champion has better stats than mobile champions early some do but some don't. You also have to make sure that not only is this one item doesn't break the game and actually does what it's intended to and not make mobile champions be even stronger than they are right now.

You will essentially not change much if anything and for the most part immobile champions will be at a bigger disadvantage now. Then what will happen to the summoner spells? people are just going to main either Ghost or Exhaust instead of Flash then what? should we change those into items as well? the cycle will continue until everyone is using the only two spells remaining of Clarity and Clairvoyance since all others are either gone or made into items since they became the norm to use

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

well my point is that imobile guys are alreay compensated in numbers for lack of mobility if they pay gold for picking flash item then they should get equalized with mobile guys

ofc the item would be stronger than the summones spell, since it takes an item slot and costs gold

thats something that mobile guys wouldnt be able to afford since that lack of stats would backfire on them hard (whats the use of mobility if anyone removes you with one hit and you dont deal damage, immobile guys have that covered with base stats)

not only that champions with mobility that decide to not buy the new Flash item will be ahead of their immobile counterpart

nope, the immobile champions start ahead thanks to the base stats, but they dont get the kill potential cause no mobility they grab the flash item, lose the advantage of power but gain the mobility required to fight or run while mobile guy gets items he needs to match the immobile guy in the end they should be equal ... but that would be up to ballance team

since now said immobile champions need to get the item in order to stand a chance against mobile champions.

and what does that change ? now they are forced to take flash, and their enemies have flash too the only thing that it changes is that their enemies might not have flash but only the jumps in their kit and if mobile guy gets the flash he loses stats which immobile champion already has by default, so he wont do anything besides running and in the end he is left with one less item slot (decimating for glasscannon squishies who need to assasinate)

the only downsides that i trully se here are 2 -immobile guys need to get the item to have it, this creates a timeframe for enemy jungler to capitalize on, and they have 0 mobility till they get the item -mobile champions gain less from buying flash since they have usualy lower base stats so the need to gain them from items

Not every immobile champion has better stats than mobile champions early some do but some don't.

valid problem ... fixable

You also have to make sure that not only is this one item doesn't break the game and actually does what it's intended to and not make mobile champions be even stronger than they are right now.

thats why im so hung up on the base stats deal

im assuming said item costs little gold and it can be obtained early into the game, still requires you to farm some

the thing here is that mobile champion will need to buy his items when he backs, not getting those will create a drawback in power meaning no effectiveness (post nerf kassadin, he is everywhere but doesnt do anything)

while immobile champion with better base stats will pick the item up and the drawback will put him on preety equal footing with mobile champions in terms of stats and fighting power

what im proposing is creating a real drawback to taking flash it cant be created when its asummoner spell, but item seems to give a big floor to ballance it, and i think that it allows us to manipulate the game in a way that makes both sides equal

the only thing i dont like about that idea is that it kills immobile champions, they become mobile and fight like mobile ones do

but i dont see riot even trying to fix that problem, nor even care for immobile champions working in their game

should we change those into items as well?

now you are just lashing out the thing with flash is that there isnt realy much of space to ballance it in comparison to other spells on the other hand the rest has loads of handless to pull and even some space for minor changes (like that ms buff they added on heal)

ps i want to make sure you understand what i mean (its a wall of text, it can confuse ppl)

lets asume that champion's power is represented by a number, this number compares how well he trades with others

lets say immobile champion has power equal to 2 while mobile one has power equal to 1

mobile one gets less trading power because part of his power is mobility

now lets say that time passes, champions get gold and go back to base, ofc no kills hapened, mobile guy disengaged everytime a immobile guy tried to hit him, while attempts at kiting werent too lucrative since immobile guy is tanky our immobile guy buys flash, so his fightin power drops to 1 since he didnt buy any offensive or defensive stats while mobile guy got himself some stats, his power is still 1 because thats how he is made and ballanced

so those guys get back to lane and both of them have 1 point of fighting power, and mobility, so they are quite equal

this is so insanely simplified, but explains the concept behind my reasoning

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OyvrAEv0,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-05T00:03:27.968+0000)

well my point is that imobile guys are alreay compensated in numbers for lack of mobility if they pay gold for picking flash item then they should get equalized with mobile guys

ofc the item would be stronger than the summones spell, since it takes an item slot and costs gold

thats something that mobile guys wouldnt be able to afford since that lack of stats would backfire on them hard (whats the use of mobility if anyone removes you with one hit and you dont deal damage, immobile guys have that covered with base stats)

nope, the immobile champions start ahead thanks to the base stats, but they dont get the kill potential cause no mobility they grab the flash item, lose the advantage of power but gain the mobility required to fight or run while mobile guy gets items he needs to match the immobile guy in the end they should be equal ... but that would be up to ballance team

and what does that change ? now they are forced to take flash, and their enemies have flash too the only thing that it changes is that their enemies might not have flash but only the jumps in their kit and if mobile guy gets the flash he loses stats which immobile champion already has by default, so he wont do anything besides running and in the end he is left with one less item slot (decimating for glasscannon squishies who need to assasinate)

the only downsides that i trully se here are 2 -immobile guys need to get the item to have it, this creates a timeframe for enemy jungler to capitalize on, and they have 0 mobility till they get the item -mobile champions gain less from buying flash since they have usualy lower base stats so the need to gain them from items

valid problem ... fixable

thats why im so hung up on the base stats deal

im assuming said item costs little gold and it can be obtained early into the game, still requires you to farm some

the thing here is that mobile champion will need to buy his items when he backs, not getting those will create a drawback in power meaning no effectiveness (post nerf kassadin, he is everywhere but doesnt do anything)

while immobile champion with better base stats will pick the item up and the drawback will put him on preety equal footing with mobile champions in terms of stats and fighting power

what im proposing is creating a real drawback to taking flash it cant be created when its asummoner spell, but item seems to give a big floor to ballance it, and i think that it allows us to manipulate the game in a way that makes both sides equal

the only thing i dont like about that idea is that it kills immobile champions, they become mobile and fight like mobile ones do

but i dont see riot even trying to fix that problem, nor even care for immobile champions working in their game

now you are just lashing out the thing with flash is that there isnt realy much of space to ballance it in comparison to other spells on the other hand the rest has loads of handless to pull and even some space for minor changes (like that ms buff they added on heal)

ps i want to make sure you understand what i mean (its a wall of text, it can confuse ppl)

lets asume that champion's power is represented by a number, this number compares how well he trades with others

lets say immobile champion has power equal to 2 while mobile one has power equal to 1

mobile one gets less trading power because part of his power is mobility

now lets say that time passes, champions get gold and go back to base, ofc no kills hapened, mobile guy disengaged everytime a immobile guy tried to hit him, while attempts at kiting werent too lucrative since immobile guy is tanky our immobile guy buys flash, so his fightin power drops to 1 since he didnt buy any offensive or defensive stats while mobile guy got himself some stats, his power is still 1 because thats how he is made and ballanced

so those guys get back to lane and both of them have 1 point of fighting power, and mobility, so they are quite equal

this is so insanely simplified, but explains the concept behind my reasoning

it doesn't matter what you do with Flash to create "drawbacks" because if your way of "fixing" it is to make it an item doesn't really mean much. You underestimate mobility way too much. Mobile champions are not going to care about the item having no stats they will still take the item because now that it is an item it will most likely be stronger and they will need it in order to catch up to the immobile champions but if you make it so that they don't need the item to catch up to them then what was the point of even making it an item in the first place? another thing you still haven't said is what will happen when another summoner spell takes it's "must take this every single game" status? there will always be a "best" summoner it's not me lashing out or anything. People are just going to take either Ghost or Exhaust since they are so much more useful than the other spells atm or maybe they'll just take Teleport what will happen to them then?

Numbers cannot fix everything like you think they do, that's kits are changed, that's why abilities are changed. Flash is what the game is balanced around and messing with that means that the entire balance goes out of whack and can backfire so easily and horribly. Riot will need to seriously put so many resources into making sure that the item Flash is going to become is strong enough that immobile champions can take it while not making it mobile champions not want it. Adding a bunch of stats to immobile isn't the way because that creates a while set of trouble where they will most likely purely because of numbers beat out any champion and will risk them stagnating the entire thing because they are so much stronger early and scale really well late game due to them now having Flash as an item so where does that leave mobile champion? get screwed early game? if so unless they have insane scaling then why would you pick them? just pick the champion that will win purely because of bloated numbers.

You change Flash in any radical manner and that means that you need to look into every single champion, every single item, every single little thing just to make sure that the impact of said change is the desirable one and let's face it Riot is not known for that since it takes them months if not years to rework specific champions because their priorities are all over the place and prefer to put priorities into champions that don't need it while other who have been needing to be looked at are just ignored and the reason? lack of resources now you are telling them that they need to make this change which will require them to put even more resources and will be such a giant project that will without a doubt put a halt to pretty much everything except E-sports and very minor things... i don't see that happening and in my opinion it would be better to just create an entirely new game from scratch

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

another thing you still haven't said is what will happen when another summoner spell takes it's "must take this every single game" status?

i sincerly thank you for at least reading the post

i already wrote about that

People are just going to take either Ghost or Exhaust since they are so much more useful than the other spells atm or maybe they'll just take Teleport what will happen to them then?

cleanse vs exshaust seems fair exshaust vs ghost ignite vs heal barrier vs ignite heal for utility
tp, well this spell has no counter but is balanced

there is a lot of options to play your spells and well check what i wrote about summoner spells before ... i wont repeat myself

Numbers cannot fix everything like you think they do, that's kits are changed

hence i change flash, didnt you notice ?

ok i bail out, whatever i say you will counter my arguments by ignoring what i already wrote

i make you a realy long post on "why mobile champions will be punished for flash" make loads of valid points and your response is that every mobile champion will just take it becuasethere is no drawback i write about what will happen to summoner spells after flash leaves their pool and in next post you blame me for not considering it there is o fcourse a big post about the ballance of "numbers" which you totaly ignore again

if you wish to discuss it like that then find someone else, cause it will just end in a flame war

Penguin Eclipse1 votes

I actually almost never take flash on champions with mobility. The exception is adc's.

Once you play without it you realize how unnecessary it really is if you have any form of mobility. The champions that don't have any form of mobility are really the only champions who need it.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

i tried it couple of times, and found flash negating most of my attempts to capitalize on it

The champions that don't have any form of mobility are really the only champions who need it.

true. i would like to encourage it as a tool for those, while discouraging mobile guys from getting it

Meep Man1 votes

I never got why Flash can't be on an active item, like boots, since while it is great, you are giving up cheap tenacity and such for it. I think if they did a Boots revamp, they could bring back Yordle Stompers so Flash could be an item.

Kaokentake1 votes

i believe flash is such a GOOD aspect of this game when you consider LCS big plays

think about it. flash is a 5 minute cooldown that you need to be PRO AS HELL to know when to use or not. it is a big decision and the players who are better at knowing when to use their summoners create a large aspect of skill that would not exist if you removed the summoners

More from Gameplay

More by Knight SoIaire