RIP Kindred/Kalista

Caítlyn·Jul 10, 2016·2 votes·1,065 views

RIP

Because they are "toxic to play against" they get nerfed out of the game.

Meanwhile exists. A ranged mobile bruiser burst assassin marksman tank.

60 Comments

Darkslayer85Jul 10, 20166 votes

Kindred has deserved these nerfs.

No, I'm not biased against her, I have mastery 7.

IA9hRfpP5qJul 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kindred has deserved these nerfs.

No, I'm not biased against her, I have mastery 7.

More like a "Freelo lvl 7"

ArakadiaJul 10, 20164 votes

Why would he want nerfs then?

CaítlynJul 10, 20163 votes

The nerfs went too far. Straight up removing the heal? When have they done something similar for any other champion? I dont see them removing the stun from Ekko etc

Darkslayer85Jul 10, 20163 votes

The heal isn't needed now, thanks to the slow. People think nerfs break a champion and end up just assuming they're unplayable. The slow actually improves kiting drastically, and I love it. Much better than the heal.

PnakoticJul 10, 20161 votes

The people forgot the jungle without pvp is a big fail. If i want to farm to win i don't take Kindred...

DefendedJul 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The nerfs went too far. Straight up removing the heal? When have they done something similar for any other champion? I dont see them removing the stun from etc

nah. kindred reached a 80% bann rate for a reason.

Problem with kindred is

No CD Dash/tumble A long range click and point 60% slow that did MAJOR damage A gnar 3 hit passive with wolf Built bruiser but completely melted tanks in sheer seconds while kiting Can 1v1 any melee champ

If kindred ulted it made it so either your team gets in and gets a heal enemy team doesnt, or enemy team gets in for the heal and loses their backline being seperated from the front line.

Kindred WAS completely broken. I think shes balanced now

PnakoticJul 10, 20161 votes

In 6.10 and fall drastically when the nerf after nerf coming.

AptestJul 10, 20162 votes

people just love sustain mechanics.

however sustain mechanics are actually bad for the game.

with respect to kindred specifically: it was supposed to be a tool for PVE jungle endurance, and ended up too good when 1v1ing the other jungler or when laning.

having to lane VS an opponent that gets 2 free potions every creep wave is abnoxious.

however the monster damage thing being a pure pve tool feels bad. it basically locks kindred into a jungle position, where i'd much rather have her as a character that can jungle but can also lane.

kindred's hunt mechanics clearly positions her as a late game hyperscaling champion. this means she can't be an early game bully. the "need to be strong early to be strong late" just does not fly because if her power window is late, early is the window where her opponents are supposed to have opportunities against her.

CaítlynJul 10, 20161 votes

Why not give it reduced effectiveness vs minions, or only work on monsters?

AptestJul 10, 20161 votes

pretty much because you can reach the same results without giving a sustain mechanic so you should.

AptestJul 10, 20161 votes

I would presume reduced effectiveness VS minions is trying to balance ineffective/irrelevant VS abusive on sustain mechanics which is difficult. I would presume VS jungle monsters is to prevent kindred from picking a fight near a jungle monster and proccing the heal off the monsters while fighting the enemy jungler.

PnakoticJul 10, 20161 votes

how you get your dmg without early game ? and how you sustain for early duel now ? KOg / Twitch have more dmg / sustain than Kindred. Sure Kindred deserve some nerf.

AptestJul 11, 20161 votes

you dont; In picking kindred you've assumed a risk. In picking lee sin, the opposing jungler aims at making you pay for the risk you've taken.

you get abused early game and lose early duels and therefore your late game stacks are delayed and your team lacks that damage in fights causing lost ganks and lost objectives and not enough jungle control to freely tour the enemy jungle looking for wolf's marks.

now question: is this a desirable scenario? if so, y? if not so, y not?

PnakoticJul 11, 20161 votes

actually the risk, doesn't give you a reward, that the problem some jungler challenger said "now KIndred is very situational" more than any jungler, this is no good.

AptestJul 11, 20161 votes

my follow up questions:

given that some jungles should be situations whereas others should be "safe picks", what is the argument for kindred to be one of the safer picks rather than the situational picks?
we know that "can 1v1 the other jungler" is a big issue in jungler selection. junglers that can 1v1 a large spectrum of opponents severely limit the number of viable junglers. what is the major downside to picking kindred as a jungler, and what is the best argument for kindred to be one of the "can 1v1 the other jugnler" characters (given that this leads to kindred invariably aggressively invading)?

ArakadiaJul 10, 20163 votes

Don't you mean your not biased against them?

Darkslayer85Jul 10, 20163 votes

https://i.imgflip.com/175x3u.jpg

ArakadiaJul 10, 20161 votes

I'm so mad when people assume Lamb is the main character,.....

MarshbouyJul 10, 20162 votes

she is tho. It frustrates me how wolf is but a pet.

ArakadiaJul 10, 20161 votes

I could go into a massive post about why Lamb isn't the main character and wolf could even be it, but that'll just piss people off probably.

MarshbouyJul 10, 20162 votes

id like to read that. Lamb is clearly the main character in their kit IMO. really its "the" since technically they are just the embodiment of death but whofuckingknows. its a video game.

ArakadiaJul 10, 20164 votes

Some guy downvoted both of us so I brought you and ScarletSkolver back up to 1.

So Lamb controls the basic attacks and Q. The ultimate uses the power of Kindred not just Lamb. The W and E are part of Wolf and the passive is split between them. Wolf also gets to basic attack with the W.

Now you might say that Wolf is just a cool particle effect. But leaders usually are depicted from above. And where is wolf? Exactly. Who's to say Wolf isn't the one that is telling Lamb who to basic attack and where to jump? Wolf could hold the healthbar or armor stats.

Wolf is the only reason Lamb exists and Lamb is the only reason Wolf exists.

We know very little about Kindred, but most people just assume that because Kindred basic attacks she is the "main part". Yin is not dominant over Yang just because white is "more vibrant" or whatever then black. [Im not sure which of the YinYang are black or white sry].

Wolf also might be only showing a portion of his form. I believe one of his quotes mentions that wolf has "claws". His physical form appears much more eatherial then Lamb who looks very physical. It is quite possible that not all of the damage from Kindred's basic attacks comes from Lamb.

Finally gameplay is far from cannon. The physical embodyment of death cannot be chained, nor has time for, simple mage summoners. So the argument that in game Lamb has 4 actions while Wolf has 3 doesn't matter so much as I explained above along with the fact gameplay isnt relevant to lore.

I thought I could ramble more then that lol.

warpenguin555Jul 10, 20161 votes

probably the op. not too bright by the looks of it

ArakadiaJul 10, 20161 votes

I see them complaining alot.

MarshbouyJul 10, 20161 votes

i dunno man

ArakadiaJul 10, 20161 votes

Welp different opinions are bound to happen and thats ok.

MisterShamelessJul 10, 20161 votes

I think it's more that Lamb is the decision maker of the two and Wolf is the follower. Lamb thinks before acting while Wolf wants to jump in before thinking. Just ying yang stuff since they were one being at one point that split into two.

RevaliJul 10, 20162 votes

*Lambutt

Linna ExcelJul 10, 20165 votes

Kalista's main problem is her kit is currently designed around LCS play specifically and probably needs a rework.

I agree about kindred though.

Dominick DestineJul 10, 20165 votes

Graves has two shots and is incredibly short ranged.

DefendedJul 10, 20164 votes

Kindred needed every nerf she got. Way too strong

But i agree with you on graves. too broken atm even with multiple nerfs

CaítlynJul 10, 20161 votes

What nerfs? They need to nerf literally everything on his kit. Gut or straight up remove the free tank stats. Double his reload speed so he has real "windows of opportunity" to fight back. Remove the slow and damage on his W. And reduce the range, damage, and increase cast time on Q. Also halve the damage and range on his ult. Its literally point and click 500+ damage. Also change how lifesteal works on him so he only gets it from 1 bullet not 6.

DefendedJul 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What nerfs? They need to nerf literally everything on his kit. Gut or straight up remove the free tank stats. Double his reload speed so he has real "windows of opportunity" to fight back. Remove the slow and damage on his W. And reduce the range, damage, and increase cast time on Q. Also halve the damage and range on his ult. Its literally point and click 500+ damage. Also change how lifesteal works on him so he only gets it from 1 bullet not 6.

He was nerfed multiple times but it just goes to show you how fucking broken he is that he still is one of the best junglers. I autod him 7 times as caitlyn at level 6 and boom he was like 60% health

CaítlynJul 10, 20161 votes

I dont understand why hes not played more. Not only is he broken as fk, hes braindead easy to play too. Caught out of position? Oh I get bonus damage in melee range and 120 free armor and mr, and Ill just auto this guy once and heal to full LOL

Darkslayer85Jul 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What nerfs? They need to nerf literally everything on his kit. Gut or straight up remove the free tank stats. TRIPLE ~~Double~~ his reload speed so he has real "windows of opportunity" to fight back. Remove the slow and damage on his W. And reduce the range, damage, and increase cast time on Q. Also halve the damage and range on his ult. Its literally point and click 500+ damage. Also change how lifesteal works on him so he only gets it from 1 bullet not 6.

ArakadiaJul 10, 20164 votes

Doubling his reload is a gut in itself. That's like cutting a champions attack speed by 1\3. An ADC needs to be able to attack consistently.m

The slow on his W is his only CC and makes it so you can't easily walk out of his W.

Each bullet only deals a percentage of his AD so life steal is fine on him.

CaítlynJul 10, 20161 votes

If youre going to have a champion be able to 100-0 you with only 2 autos, his reload speed needs to be MUCH higher.

His W is far too powerful. People need to be able to easily walk out of it.

Life steal is fine on him? Have you not seen him healing for more then 500 per hit?

ArakadiaJul 10, 20165 votes

Many ADC's that use crit can heal 500 per hit.

Your making those numbers up unless he is massively fed or your full damage and he's full damage squishy.

warpenguin555Jul 10, 20164 votes