Literally hundreds of upvotes. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4kj1np/taliyahs_w_should_be_changed_to_act_like_rumbles/?st=iqmfmikp&sh=967ec685
Now its "change it back roit wtf" http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dEU7p2YO-patch-614-taliyah-change-official-seismic-shove-w-change-request-petition
LOL
Quepha77 votesA bunch of people who didn't like Taliyah were asking to change Taliyah into something they liked. Meanwhile, a bunch of players were actually playing Taliyah instead of posting on the boards because they liked her. When Riot changed Taliyah to appeal to people who didn't play her, suddenly her players had a reason to go to the boards.
Xenos1111116 votesYeah, this is usually what happens when people don't like a change. The people who asked for the change were the ones being vocal then, and the people who object to the change are the ones vocal after because they get more attention for voicing thejr disdain once the change goes live.
Some people fail to recognize that it's a DIFFERENT group of people who asked for the change than the ones complaining about it.
That said, there's also the case where the change was popular in concept but after people get a taste of it they change their minds (either because they're just hard to please, or because the change was implemented badly cough DQ cough)
Leetri5 votesThere's also the case that people generally don't know what they want until they see it. Everyone's most likely seen something on for example a restaurant menu and thought "ooh, that sounds good. I'll take that". Up until that point you had no idea you wanted that meal. In this case it's the reverse in that they thought "ooh I want that" and then when they get what they thought they wanted they realize they didn't actually want it.
Decrit3 votesAnd people say "if someone likes something they downvote who thinks otherwise so posts with lots of upvotes are legit!1!!1"
Boards will never learn.
OverpoweredSoap32 votesI'd argue its different people complaining about it though?
Not to mention the boards here tend to hate Reddit anyways.
Jeddy01716 votesYeah, the people who wanted vector cast are the noob Tali players who only played her once or twice & didn't bother trying to ACTUALLY learn her.
The people who want the old W casting back are the players who ACTUALLY took the time to learn how to play around the W.
This is clearly a case of inexperience vs the experienced.
Mandang019 votesOr it's a bunch of people who learned something (for better or worse) that don't want that something changed.
The way you put it makes it sound like there's a good reason for the old way over the new.
Elikain4 votesYea, you can't hide her "super-hard-to-get-used-to" W behind her steep learning curve. Especially when her core functionality on her old W could only work with one combo - EW and that was it.
This is clearly a case of inexperience vs the experienced.
This is somewhat true but not entirely. People that could stomach her W and took it on as a challenge had gotten used to it and people who found the spell to irritating to use stopped playing her because of one ability alone.
Rico Nasty26 votesYeah I've stopped expecting anything from this community. No one is happy about anything.
Ralanr9 votesFinally someone gets it.
inplane18 votesI came to these boards after 2 years of leaving it because of this horrendous change.
I think I speak for every damn Taliyah player out there that we did not expect Riot to handle the Vector Casting change this poorly. They literally got Viktor's E control scheme, copied it, pasted it onto Taliyah's W, shortened the line target reticle, and called it a day, which was NOT what we wanted at all. They didn't even bother to change the max range casting so it would force Taliyah to walk into range if she tried to cast it outside of the designated range, which makes it feel much more clunkier than before.
Eedat16 votesWhat were you expecting? Of course its going to function like Viktors laser. That's what vector casting is
inplane13 votesWhat were you expecting? Of course its going to function like Viktors laser. That's what vector casting is
I expected Riot to fine-tune the controls to fit Taliyah's movement speed-based playstyle.
The skill should activate as soon as you click and then you drag it during it's activation into a direction. As it stands now, there's a delay from the controls on top of the delay of the skill itself. It also doesn't have a way to vertically knock people directly upwards anymore due to it defaulting to knocking people away from Taliyah, which is clearly an unintended change.
Eedat3 votesNo, its working exactly as it should. That's how vector casting works. You just seem to not understand how vector casting work. What you are describing is not vector casting
inplane6 votesNo, its working exactly as it should. That's how vector casting works. You just seem to not understand how vector casting work. What you are describing is not vector casting
Then why did the community vote to change it to Vector Casting? Do you people even play Taliyah or are you just doing this out of spite because you hate how she just wrecked you in your promos?
Also, you should elaborate here instead of saying "No" like how you did in my topic: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/W721WulP-as-a-taliyah-main-with-level-7-mastery-on-her
Eedat4 votesFfs stop crying. I never said vector casting is good. I'm merely explaining how it works since you obviously still don't get it
inplane3 votesFfs stop crying. I never said vector casting is good. I'm merely explaining how it works since you obviously still don't get it
I never implied you said Vector Casting is good. I do get it and I suggested that Taliyah should get a different form of casting altogether since it doesn't suit her playstyle.
Also, at what point was I crying. All I asked was for more details since I'm giving lots of it out, but I'm receiving little to none on the other end.
Eedat3 votesAlso, at what point was I crying.
Your little baby rage impying I'm just salty because I got wrecked by a Taliyah at some point. All I was doing was explaining to you what vector casting is and you threw a little temper tantrum. I never said whether I'm for or against reverting the changes. All I did was point out that her W is working correctly when compared to other vector spells. You said:
The skill should activate as soon as you click and then you drag it during it's activation into a direction.
which is not how vector casting works. Vector casting does not start the spell until both the start position and direction are both locked in. It's working as intended. Whether you like or dislike vector casting is a different subject, but it doesnt change the mechanics behind it
SubRosa14 votesDude you dont get aything, so stop bitching pls. He said how her W SHOULD work, and you explain how works vector cast. Everybodu fckn know how it works.
Sire Hippington6 votesit's not what it has to be.
There is plenty room for fine-tuneing that wasn't used.
Cosnirak7 votesI think I speak for every damn Taliyah player out there
You don't.
Erdamon12 votesWell I mean, it's just a boards thread and it has the word "petition" in it.
xTropicalPenguin10 votesA month ago she came out, after playing her for a month people realized that the way W was cast was completely fine, but riot in their infinite wisdom thinks "If they complained about it but stopped that means they still want it", must explain solo q "If they complain about it all the time they don't want it"
Marshbouy9 votesDouble standard resulting from a lot of people on one social media platform
Battlecast Sona7 votesI just feel like 90% of the posts are in this vein, and it's not very helpful:
"I have 100~150 games on Taliyah and -I- did it with the old way of casting! now I hate the new way!"
It makes it sound like you're basically faulting these people for not playing a champion that, for whatever reason, didn't appeal to them mechanically.
That said I put a pretty good effort into Taliyah and never found her to be anything special, but I didn't feel that her old W cast particularly strengthened her gameplay. I've mostly been laughing about the people trying to tell me vector casting 1 ability takes longer than casting the same ability twice (lol). If that's true, you need to pick up a slower paced game... Cause my cast time for Taliyah's W went from maybe .51 second to like .15.25 at most, and I've found it to be much more reliable.
I totally understand people being upset that they learned it a certain way, but a lot of people (not you) come at it from this place of "Well I am a Taliyah main (Kappa) and I CLEARLY understand this champion better than the designers or the players". Let's stop calling people who wanted vector cast "noobs", because I was for it as well if nothing else because it's more inline with the rest of the game mechanics (and it really seems faster now, much more reliable, and though the indicator could use some QoL I think it's a superior method of casting, mechanically). Does being unhappy with Taliyah's W and choosing not to play her as a result somehow make me unskilled at the game? I don't see why - I chose to wait until Riot either buffed the character or changed the cast paradigm because I found it lacking. As someone who has been playing since season 1, I don't feel that I couldn't have learned Taliyah's W with the previous cast method, but rather I just didn't think she was that great (and as a support main seeing her with a 30% winrate in support didn't make me very confident in picking her for that role).
tl;dr: taliyah mains need to stop coming into threads and immediately insulting anyone who has an opinion who didn't "main" the champ on release, or nobody will ever take you seriously. if you have a legitimate problem back it up with logic and reasoning not "well I learned it the old way and the old way is better".
inplane2 votes[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A5AfJNpr,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-07-14T18:42:21.200+0000)
I just feel like 90% of the posts are in this vein, and it's not very helpful:
"I have 100~150 games on Taliyah and -I- did it with the old way of casting! now I hate the new way!"
It makes it sound like you're basically faulting these people for not playing a champion that, for whatever reason, didn't appeal to them mechanically.
That said I put a pretty good effort into Taliyah and never found her to be anything special, but I didn't feel that her old W cast particularly strengthened her gameplay. I've mostly been laughing about the people trying to tell me vector casting 1 ability takes longer than casting the same ability twice (lol). If that's true, you need to pick up a slower paced game... Cause my cast time for Taliyah's W went from maybe .5
1 second to like .15.25 at most, and I've found it to be much more reliable.I totally understand people being upset that they learned it a certain way, but a lot of people (not you) come at it from this place of "Well I am a Taliyah main (Kappa) and I CLEARLY understand this champion better than the designers or the players". Let's stop calling people who wanted vector cast "noobs", because I was for it as well if nothing else because it's more inline with the rest of the game mechanics (and it really seems faster now, much more reliable, and though the indicator could use some QoL I think it's a superior method of casting, mechanically). Does being unhappy with Taliyah's W and choosing not to play her as a result somehow make me unskilled at the game? I don't see why - I chose to wait until Riot either buffed the character or changed the cast paradigm because I found it lacking. As someone who has been playing since season 1, I don't feel that I couldn't have learned Taliyah's W with the previous cast method, but rather I just didn't think she was that great (and as a support main seeing her with a 30% winrate in support didn't make me very confident in picking her for that role).
tl;dr: taliyah mains need to stop coming into threads and immediately insulting anyone who has an opinion who didn't "main" the champ on release, or nobody will ever take you seriously. if you have a legitimate problem back it up with logic and reasoning not "well I learned it the old way and the old way is better".
Read through this topic and you'll know exactly why this issue is blaring: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dEU7p2YO-patch-614-taliyah-change-official-seismic-shove-w-change-request-petition
I've already explained in this topic and I'm honestly feeling very tired of explaining and posting the same damn thing that people didn't even bother to read. Vector Casting on an AOE, delayed circle skillshot is VERY different compared to an AOE, line skillshot. Getting use to it is one thing. Flexibility and freedom is another.
Battlecast Sona7 votesI don't actually know a damn thing.
I've read through that topic, and it's literally just pages of people complaining about the change and insulting anyone who thinks it was good. The original topic is just "it's clunky" which is what people said in all forms of every Viktor change since the beginning of time so it literally means nothing to me (MYMU was "clunky" and he became the #1 mage pick in LCS). Every post following it is ramblings about how it "takes longer to cast" and "loses flexibility and freedom", neither of which seems like it can possibly be true when vector casting is patently simpler than normal casting if you're familiar with the cast paradigm. Implying that somehow having to cast W twice is harder than pressing W once and flicking the mouse the direction you want is crazy.
So it's literally exactly what I posted about - that thread (and this one) are just a bunch of Taliyah mains circlejerking about how they didn't want this change. Nobody has explained why they actually think it's bad aside from complaints and assurances that THEY have played enough Taliyah games to REALLY know what they're talking about.
There are some legitimate concerns (the cast indicator is lacking, certainly, and I hope the nerfs weren't too much), but I don't think that W being or not being vector cast is really a huge make or break thing for the character. I totally advocate speaking up for what you want and believe in but I'm tired of people on the boards thinking that having an opinion and having a supported argument are the same thing.
inplane4 votes[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A5AfJNpr,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2016-07-14T19:03:18.263+0000)
I don't actually know a damn thing.
I've read through that topic, and it's literally just pages of people complaining about the change and insulting anyone who thinks it was good. The original topic is just "it's clunky" which is what people said in all forms of every Viktor change since the beginning of time so it literally means nothing to me (MYMU was "clunky" and he became the #1 mage pick in LCS). Every post following it is ramblings about how it "takes longer to cast" and "loses flexibility and freedom", neither of which seems like it can possibly be true when vector casting is patently simpler than normal casting if you're familiar with the cast paradigm. Implying that somehow having to cast W twice is harder than pressing W once and flicking the mouse the direction you want is crazy.
So it's literally exactly what I posted about - that thread (and this one) are just a bunch of Taliyah mains circlejerking about how they didn't want this change. Nobody has explained why they actually think it's bad aside from complaints and assurances that THEY have played enough Taliyah games to REALLY know what they're talking about.
There are some legitimate concerns (the cast indicator is lacking, certainly, and I hope the nerfs weren't too much), but I don't think that W being or not being vector cast is really a huge make or break thing for the character. I totally advocate speaking up for what you want and believe in but I'm tired of people on the boards thinking that having an opinion and having a supported argument are the same thing.
This person posted some good insight on the first page:
First of all, great post dude!
May be add some math and facts to clarify some moments. First of all, in 6.13 I need to predict where enemy will be in next 0.85s in order to land W, moreover, my enemy has even more time of awarness, cse I must land E first. In 6.14 I need to predict where enemy will be in next 0.85 + time of vector casting(aka click and drag which is like 0.35-0.45 sec I guess in skilled hands) which bring us enormous 1.2-1.3s of prediction. And here even more. With vector cast, casting spell OUTSIDE of MAX range force champ to go into it(max range) to cast spell, while casting it same way with double cast make champ to cast it IMMEDIATTLY at MAX range... Obviously, that change mess up a lot of combos, cse you accidentally cancel your W cast with E or Q
But I guess I'll explain it more. Again.
One current problem is the fact that the target reticle doesn't match what the skill does. It's clear that this is a result of laziness.
Another problem is the fact that the skill doesn't give the player the option to knock people vertically upwards anymore, which restricts the freedom. If you're wondering why you would want to do that, read what people have to say in the other topic.
Another problem is that it doesn't mesh with Taliyah's playstyle. She's a roaming movement speed-based mage that has to move all the time. The time it takes you to click and then drag is already too much time wasted when you're trying to hit someone like Hecarim. The old W lets you select an area of the ground and whether or not you wanted to, you can push, pull, or shove to the side. There is a huge difference and I noticed right off the bat.
Honestly, the change just isn't good because it's so lazily implemented. I'm not saying Vector Casting is bad, but Taliyah's W needs a completely different casting control scheme at this point because it doesn't fit Taliyah at all.
Battlecast Sona3 votesI think "I feel that the new change makes Taliyah's gameplay change" isn't really a valid argument. The post you quote is actually one of my major problems - it definitely does not take me anywhere near .25~.35 seconds to vector cast Taliyah's W. It's instant. With smart cast with indicator on you can literally press W and flick your mouse and release W and you're done - MAYBE, just maybe .1 second longer than normally casting a spell, but it's not challenging at all to cast the spell faster once you're familiar with the paradigm.
Not liking a change because it feels wrong or is different from what you experienced before is fine, but there are people all over the threads claiming she's ruined and dead and she's gonna lose 10% more winrate and..,
To be clear, I don't mind that there are people unhappy about vector cast - lots of changes happen in this game every day that I disagree with. But most of the posts supporting the other side use logic and "math" that is completely made up. And I'm incredibly confused as to how removing spell lockout made her LESS mobile.
Cosnirak1 votesIt's clear that this is a result of laziness.
Laziness and having a different set of priorities than you think they should are NOT the same thing. Riot isn't lazy.
inplane2 votesLaziness and having a different set of priorities than you think they should are NOT the same thing. Riot isn't lazy.
They didn't even bother to change the skill description. I highly doubt the inability to vertically knock people upwards is intentional.
It's sad that this topic is starting to become a flamefest more than anything. I've already stated my facts and opinions and I really miss the freedom the old W gave. It's just frustrating after a month of trying to master her and actually liking to play this game.
Cosnirak2 votesThey didn't even bother to change the skill description. I highly doubt the inability to vertically knock people upwards is intentional.
They didn't PRIORITIZE it. That is not laziness, no matter how hard you fail to understand my point, it remains true.
It's just frustrating after a month of trying to master her and actually liking to play this game.
This is legit feedback, but also highly anticipated and deemed worth the cost. It sucks, yup. Want a hug? I'm down for giving the people who got used to it hugs (virtual hugs but still), seriously. There's real and justified frustration and pain there, absolutely. But that doesn't make the change not worth while, and it sure doesn't make Riot lazy.
inplane2 votesThey didn't PRIORITIZE it. That is not laziness, no matter how hard you fail to understand my point, it remains true.
This is legit feedback, but also highly anticipated and deemed worth the cost. It sucks, yup. Want a hug? I'm down for giving the people who got used to it hugs (virtual hugs but still), seriously. There's real and justified frustration and pain there, absolutely. But that doesn't make the change not worth while, and it sure doesn't make Riot lazy.
A hug would help at this point.
Although it's painful to see my main being gimped at the moment, I guess there's nothing to do but sit back and let Riot decide.
Astôlfo1 votesIf you don't know anything, your opinion really isn't valid.
And people have stated reasons, logic, and proof. You must have somehow missed reading the dozens of times people mentioned them.
And no, the W change has killed and ruined her.
Defended1 votes[deleted]
Astôlfo2 votesimplying that has anything to do with it lmao
Battlecast Sona3 voteswhy does your rank have nothing to do with it but my number of games on Taliyah is relevant?
Shouldn't someone having more games of League of Legends played give them more experience than you, especially if they're a higher rank?
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Astôlfo1 votesI mean you're unranked this season and Gold last season, which is pretty much average. I've literally started mid/late S6 and am still new to the game. I still have far more experience on Taliyah than you, as do many other players. I think that's more relevant when discussing… you know, Taliyah.
Or, obviously, it doesn't, right? The words of someone who's basically never played pre-ruined Taliyah versus new Taliyah extensively trying to argue about this… like, what?
Cosnirak4 votesYou're both wrong. Experience with Taliyah isn't required in the slightest to understand casting inputs and how they make an individual feel. Rank is also not relevant here. Get on with real discussion of the issue.
Battlecast Sona5 votesbasically:
nep2une has decided I don't know what I'm talking about. Rather than actually dispute any of my points, he just wants to keep pointing out that I didn't play Taliyah as much as him and the other mains did.
AbyssionKnight7 votesPeople hate change, it's as simple as that.
Taliyah releases and people don't like a new casting mechanic. So Riot listens, but by the time they change the mechanic, people who have played the champion a lot are used to the 'new' casting mechanic, so a change to a more traditional vector cast, upsets them.
The simple reality is that Riot should just do what's best for the champion. If they honestly feel Vector casting makes her more reliable / playable, then they should keep it this way, even if it upsets her core players. After all, she can get new core players, and if she's healthier on the game, that's what really matters.
Paletongue5 votesHere's the other side of the coin, I'm ready for the downvotes
I'm a Viktor main. I have plenty of practice with his vector casting and it's one of the quickest and easiest skills to cast to me, specifically beuacse im used to it. When Taliyah came out and I tested her on PBE, I was shocked and confused that her W didn't already have vector casting, because, at least in my opinion, that would be the simplest way to throw someone. I actually stopped playing her because I couldn't get the W to do what i wanted to, and I repeatedly tried to cast it like Viktor's E.
Obviously i had no practice with Taliyah's original W, so i was bad at it. If you really do enjoy playing Taliyah, you'll just have to get more practice with the casting and you'll eventually see its quick and fluid, perfect to be running and jumping around with. No vertical knockup will definitely be missed, but it just may be worth it.
Ultîma5 votesPretty much this.
Introducing an entirely new casting paradigm over the already-existing cast-and-release method of vector casting was a mistake. Now Taliyah has a control-scheme consistent with other league champions and will be more accessible for it. Especially at higher levels of play where fluid command inputs are absolutely necessary to perform.
MrBuffington4 votesI mean, I was very vocal about not changing to vector cast, and I still don't like it, but the reasoning made sense if you actually read Zenon's post. Vector is, strictly speaking, a faster input method, since it requires one button press and a mouse movement, instead of two button presses and a mouse movement. The reason they changed to vector was to complement the fact that Taliyah no longer had a lockout on her other spells, and, while it is not absolutely necessary (you can still hit WEW in the delay time), it's just faster.
Personally vector cast still makes no intuitive sense to me, so I still can't play it. On the plus side, if I ever invest enough time to learn it, I'll be able to play Viktor and Rumble as well, who are two champions I've always wanted to play but never could because of vector casting.
Jynweithek3 votesHere's the thing, though: Unlike Viktor and Rumble, Taliyah's W has a delay before actually knocking people away, part of this being visible to the enemy. Vector casting makes sense on an almost instant damaging spell that travels in a line, but not on a time-sensitive, ground-targeted circle with a delay. The fact that the casting doesn't start until you release W as opposed to before where it started on press-down, means that another layer of prediction is involved of the Taliyah player on top of the already existing delay. It makes it worse in clutch situations(by a lot), which also means it's a worse ability now in higher levels of play. Other than that, Viktor or Rumble hardly ever need to cast their spells in max range, while Taliyah needs to more often, especially if you've internalized the range.
Also, the lock-out removal essentially makes her a bad Viktor clone with a burst-mage profile, an unreliable combo and semi-global non-damaging ult. Before, landing her E>W required planning, zoning and outplaying/outsmarting your opponent because it was so telegraphed, so the interaction was very engaging and offered counterplay for the opponent. Now you rely more on dumb luck, because if you land the W you land everything else, and her W is unreliable/easily dodged.
It's not only a question of having to learn a new way of casting(which I think many Taliyah players won't mind) it's that it's now inferior when mastered compared to the old one when mastered. It's also not about which casting is better overall, it's that the old W casting was a better fit for a spell like that, because it's a spell that's different from Viktors and Rumbles spells, even if they can be cast in the same way. If you want to try a simulation of how it feels for a Taliyah main to cast the new W, try playing a champion with skillshots you know very well(except for Viktor and Rumble), and enable quick-cast with indicator on all spells.
Partholonian3 votesThe reason Riot doesn't listen to all their players is that they're contradicting each other.
Whichever players Riot doesn't listen to will then complain about it.
Conclusion: whatever Riot does or doesn't do, it will piss off someone.
Tacosrock3 votesYes, because I definitely use the boards when I don't have an issue rather than just playing the game. Makes sense right? LOL LOL LOL
Wyrmblade3 votesThe problem is that they changed it in a way that's equally clunky.
The ability should start on the button click. Any other way is just unintuitive.
LordOfTheLeague3 votesDo you think possible that the 100 persons who want vector casting are not the same that don't want it ?
FakeGravity3 votesI thought the change was going to be good but it feels clumsy it don't respond like it should basically if you move your cursor too fast you miss place the skill