Can we give Yasuo energy costs?
So he has an actual limit to his stupid infinite mobility?
So he has an actual limit to his stupid infinite mobility?
i dont know. can we give ranged adc mana costs for ranged auto attacks?
because yasuo does and builds exactly the same as marksmen, and has his mobility as compensation for having to fight on a squishy build in melee.
if were putting a resource on his mobility, we also need to put a resource on ranged auto attacks to keep it fair. id be down for it.
Do you ever say anything not retarded?
You probably think all ranged attacks should heal melee champions just for being melee.
Do you ever say anything not retarded?
You probably think all ranged attacks should heal melee champions just for being melee.
its a pretty fair comparison. yasuo isnt an assassin. he doesnt rely on burst, but uses his spells to deal sustained damage just like a ranged adc does with his auto attacks, on pretty much the same build as them.
putting his spells under restrictions of a resource is putting his ability to carry under that restriction. its very well comparable to putting a resource on ranged auto attacks for marksmen.
if yasuo with his current kit would run out of mana or energy, then what would he have left? he would be squishy sitting in arms length of the enemy team only able to auto attack.
its basically the same situation as putting a marksman into melee with only melee attacks to work with. how long do you think you would survive in that situation?
This guy has been saying this in every recent Yasuo thread, but people prefer to hate.
Yasuo is a melee ADC, builds the same items and is expected to have the same job: kill everyone that steps too close but falling to coordinated efforts.
Look at the other melee ADCs:
Lord of free stats and damages: He has a mov speed boost to get in range of RANGED ADCs, a attack speed boost, free hit every 4th and true damage to help. Because he starts at melee range, if he had to walk to enemy ranged ADCs he would die before getting there.
Dash, slow and the crit gimmick to give him some damage to compete for the enemy's safety. He is trading the Ranged advantage for a damage advantage.
%max hp true damage to shred through everyone (like ranged ADCs do) and quick dashes to simulate high attack speed, like a Ranged ADC (the AOE heal is still weird, I think only she should heal, or reduce healing for allies)
He is melee but not really. His barrels have huge range and bonus damage to champions (for squishies) and ignore armor (against tanks), again, so he can shred through everyone.
The armor pen from the ultimate allows him to shred tanks, the low CD on Q allows him to mimic 3-attack-speed-items-marksman, by allowing him to fluently unleash damage (his Q is barely better than an auto attack, while being a skillshot).
Now, all of these champions have mobility in some ways.
and
get huge move speeds buffs;
gets a long range dash with reduceable cooldown;
and
get low CD fast dashes, but Fiora's are better than Yasuo's. Hers doesn't require an enemy to use, have no restrictions to be casted and prioritize vitals, so, to make Yasuo's dash something decent, they gave him the no resource treatment.
I hope it got well explained, ty Critmaster Garen for focusing on the rational part of the explanation ^^
's q actually has a meaningful cooldown in early lane, so it is actually possible to play around her
And Yasuo's has a 10 second recast time and needs enemies. And is pretty slow. Fiora's Dash is way better than Yasuo's.
If he starts dashing through the minions you don't throw every single skillshot at that time, you wait, and when he has all minions marked, you hit him.
[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T02:17:44.907+0000)
its a pretty fair comparison. yasuo isnt an assassin. he doesnt rely on burst, but uses his spells to deal sustained damage just like a ranged adc does with his auto attacks, on pretty much the same build as them.
putting his spells under restrictions of a resource is putting his ability to carry under that restriction. its very well comparable to putting a resource on ranged auto attacks for marksmen.
if yasuo with his current kit would run out of mana or energy, then what would he have left? he would be squishy sitting in arms length of the enemy team only able to auto attack.
its basically the same situation as putting a marksman into melee with only melee attacks to work with. how long do you think you would survive in that situation?
lol doesn't burst. That bitch three shots you.
lol doesn't burst. That bitch three shots you.
maybe other squishies. but so does any marksman. ever seen a varus deleted by 2 jinx rockets lategame? i have.
and due to his passive, his crits deal less damage than that of an average marksman.
[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-26T01:47:22.192+0000)
i dont know. can we give ranged adc mana costs for ranged auto attacks?
because yasuo does and builds exactly the same as marksmen, and has his mobility as compensation for having to fight on a squishy build in melee.
if were putting a resource on his mobility, we also need to put a resource on ranged auto attacks to keep it fair. id be down for it.
Okay, I call bullshit on this.
What ADC can strictly block multiple projectiles, even if they are ultimates, without the shield being consumed until the cast time itself is down?
Mobility I can understand cause he is a melee and squishy, but he has the damage of an assassin and does not need a shield that generates with movement (or instantly if his ult lands, which is on-click due to E and ranged due to Q), nor did he need to have 100% crit with Infinity Edge compensating for the cut on his critical hits, making him one of the hardest hitting "Warriors" in the game.
As far as I'm concerned, no Yasuo that is good has had a problem with ADCs since they are always around minions or are easily caught so long as they are alone. If you are fighting an ADC who has friends around alone? You're the problem.
In my opinion, fuck putting a resource on his mobility, put a straight up cap on the amount of targets he can E on. Hell I'd love to see his shield removed all together, or his wall tampered with, but no, we got you and CertainlyT bitching whenever Yasuo is even touched.
EDIT: Not to mention the armor penetration from the ultimate is straight up catering to Yasuo mains that don't want to buy an armor pen for tanks.
[{quoted}](name=Burnt Light,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2016-07-26T18:01:41.196+0000)
Okay, I call bullshit on this.
What ADC can strictly block multiple projectiles, even if they are ultimates, without the shield being consumed until the cast time itself is down?
Mobility I can understand cause he is a melee and squishy, but he has the damage of an assassin and does not need a shield that generates with movement (or instantly if his ult lands, which is on-click due to E and ranged due to Q), nor did he need to have 100% crit with Infinity Edge compensating for the cut on his critical hits, making him one of the hardest hitting "Warriors" in the game.
As far as I'm concerned, no Yasuo that is good has had a problem with ADCs since they are always around minions or are easily caught so long as they are alone. If you are fighting an ADC who has friends around alone? You're the problem.
In my opinion, fuck putting a resource on his mobility, put a straight up cap on the amount of targets he can E on. Hell I'd love to see his shield removed all together, or his wall tampered with, but no, we got you and CertainlyT bitching whenever Yasuo is even touched.
EDIT: Not to mention the armor penetration from the ultimate is straight up catering to Yasuo mains that don't want to buy an armor pen for tanks.
yasuo being manaless and using his spells as compensation for melee auto attack range doesnt give him an actual kit. its just whats neccessarry to compensate for the ranged disadvantage.
also
are you saying ranged adc dont have team utility?

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=000200020000,timestamp=2016-07-26T18:20:12.628+0000)
yasuo being manaless and using his spells as compensation for melee auto attack range doesnt give him an actual kit. its just whats neccessarry to compensate for the ranged disadvantage.
also
are you saying ranged adc dont have team utility?
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
Kindred, slow MS and her only kite utility being E.
Sivir, once spell shield is down (any smart Yasuo would engage her with E first) she's a sitting duck as her ulti doesn't mean anything once you have her in Yasuo's ultimate.
Ashe, wind wall her ulti, and E your way towards her since slow does not affect the speed of E.
Kalista's MS is pathetic and her hops are mediocre, a well aimed tornado makes her a sitting duck and the crit proc cuts her health by half or more.
Tristana's R and her W are to disengage, making it not possible for her to kite you if she has lept away.
Your concern is ADC range, but you never even thought of closing the gap or making the use of your E and wind-wall to ensure they can't kite you. In fact, you are so concerned about these champions that you never took into consideration of some underrated champions that can completely ignore your wind-wall and destroy your positioning.
You missed Kalista's ult utility.
You missed Kalista's ult utility.
If you're a Yasuo that is alone engaging an ADC that has its partner with him/her, that's on you.
If we're arguing Yasuo as a bot lane carry, then he and his opponent would have supports with them.
If we're arguing Yasuo as a bot lane carry, then he and his opponent would have supports with them.
Why would Yasuo even be in a bot lane carrying position when he can go mid or top, where he is a lot more efficient?
Because CritmasterGaren is saying that he was originally designed for bot and a lot of the stuff on his kit was given so he could work there.
Because CritmasterGaren is saying that he was originally designed for bot and a lot of the stuff on his kit was given so he could work there.
eh, thats not really what i said^^
i said hes a melee adc not that he was designed to play on bot lane.
his kit was designed to work on a squishy adc build similar to tryndameres or like the ones of marksmen. his relatively high mobility is the compensation for the range disadvantage.
but besides that, he still needs his own strength and his own kit that separates him from other carries.
this is why his kit seems so loaded. because they had to squish a lot of stuff in there just to compensate for the auto attack range disadvantage.
[{quoted}](name=Burnt Light,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2016-07-26T18:01:41.196+0000)
Okay, I call bullshit on this.
What ADC can strictly block multiple projectiles, even if they are ultimates, without the shield being consumed until the cast time itself is down?
Mobility I can understand cause he is a melee and squishy, but he has the damage of an assassin and does not need a shield that generates with movement (or instantly if his ult lands, which is on-click due to E and ranged due to Q), nor did he need to have 100% crit with Infinity Edge compensating for the cut on his critical hits, making him one of the hardest hitting "Warriors" in the game.
As far as I'm concerned, no Yasuo that is good has had a problem with ADCs since they are always around minions or are easily caught so long as they are alone. If you are fighting an ADC who has friends around alone? You're the problem.
In my opinion, fuck putting a resource on his mobility, put a straight up cap on the amount of targets he can E on. Hell I'd love to see his shield removed all together, or his wall tampered with, but no, we got you and CertainlyT bitching whenever Yasuo is even touched.
EDIT: Not to mention the armor penetration from the ultimate is straight up catering to Yasuo mains that don't want to buy an armor pen for tanks.
Now now. How about you look around to know what Yasuo actually is?
Yasuo is classified under Skirmishers in the "soon to come" (aka: 2018) classes changes. Guess what Skirmishers do? This is straight from the Dev Blog that introduces these:
"Unlike Assassins, Skirmishers aim to shred through any nearby enemy that approaches. Because Skirmishers lack high-end burst damage or reliable ways of closing in on high-priority targets, they are instead armed with situationally powerful defensive tools to survive in the fray, along with extreme sustained damage to cut down even the most durable targets."
Skirmishers are meant to be doing high end damage at a sustained rate. They all have defensive tools so that they won't get blown up immediately due to the fact that they're innately squishy. They all have damage steroids somewhere so that they can be a threat to everyone, not just high priority squishies like Assassins do. Yasuo's defensive tools are his shield and windwall. His steroid is the bonus armor pen he gets whenever he ults, which is a lot less accessable than all of the other skirmishers' (Fiora passive, Riven passive, Ekko passive on W, Yi... I don't know jack shit about Yi's kit but doesnt he have true damage somewhere?). Assassins and Skirmishers are both put under Slayers. Slayers are light fighters that use their mobility to murder their targets. Assassins have the burst to delete a squishy or two, but have to leave since they can't survive being focused once they use their rotation. Skirmishers lack escape mobility in a teamfight, but have the defensive tools and sustained damage to be able to fight against anyone they have to.
Oh, and Yasuo does have a cap on how many targets he can dash to. How you use that time cap is up to whoever has the displeasure of laning against Yasuo.
"Balance in all things."
"stfu dude this is why I didn't join your stupid club in the first place."
do you ever post anything NOT ignorant? yasuo is completely balanced right now despite what you may say. over-exaggerating the power of a champion doesn't make them op.
Where did I say anything about him being OP?
All I said is he has infinite mobility, which is true. There is no cost, and no cooldown.
Where did I say anything about him being OP?
All I said is he has infinite mobility, which is true. There is no cost, and no cooldown.
well, there is no cost on marksmen auto attack range.
please justify them being able to inifnitely attack at range for free, while other champions cant.
[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T02:37:57.920+0000)
well, there is no cost on marksmen auto attack range.
please justify them being able to inifnitely attack at range for free, while other champions cant.
You're asking for logic in a thread about Yasuo. Better off trying to cure cancer; you're more likely to succeed at that than you are to get any reasonableness from the mindless Yasuo haters that inhabit this place.
[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T05:26:57.814+0000)
Better off trying to cure cancer.
That's the whole point of the Thread!
yes, and it's what's making him balanced. adding on energy costs is a huge nerf, which implies that you think he's OP/too strong which he isn't.
[{quoted}](name=Ruin Lance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2016-07-26T02:41:52.666+0000)
yes, and it's what's making him balanced. adding on energy costs is a huge nerf, which implies that you think he's OP/too strong which he isn't.
op is just farming for upvotes/trolling. just look into his profile.
everyone else just doesnt seem to understand the concept of a power budget.
yeah despite knowing that i can't help posting on these types of threads sometimes
Yasuo? Fine, a balanced champion His current buildpath? It's obnoxious because it makes him very difficult to kill whilst still dealing extremely high and consistent damage, with much more safety than the old build. Yasuo isn't an issue but maybe some of the items he is building need to be looked at soon, because the Yasuo with PD IE 2 tank items and a sustain item like BT or BoTRK + merc treads or ninja tabi should /not/ be outdamaging a glass cannon such as assassin Akali, Zed, etc. But he is.
[{quoted}](name=Kurisu Makíse,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=000300000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-26T03:57:27.273+0000)
Yasuo? Fine, a balanced champion His current buildpath? It's obnoxious because it makes him very difficult to kill whilst still dealing extremely high and consistent damage, with much more safety than the old build. Yasuo isn't an issue but maybe some of the items he is building need to be looked at soon, because the Yasuo with PD IE 2 tank items and a sustain item like BT or BoTRK + merc treads or ninja tabi should /not/ be outdamaging a glass cannon such as assassin Akali, Zed, etc. But he is.
The items Yasuo's building being a problem problem is true, I'll give that much. Especially his Off. Tank build known as Frozen Force. Riot really needs to do something about Trinity Force because it's not only Yasuo abusing this item obviously with Hecarin and Irelia running amok. Hell, Yasuo was expected to suffer from the TriForce changes but he still builds it even in his mid builds when he can afford to prioritize damage. Even in his standard build, Phantom Dancer is too good of a duelist item in my opinion.
And what you say is false. Skirmishers like Yasuo are eventually going to outdamage an Assassin due to the fact that Skirmishers deal sustained damage and have the capability to shred through even tanks, but they are off course trading off Assassin's unrivaled overall mobility and burst. Assassin have the burst to kill one or two squishies, but little sustained damage and they usually want to get out of a battle once they do their jobs in order to avoided being killed by the frontline.
inb4: But Yasuo has unlimited mobility!1!!. No, he doesn't. He may have the best Offensive mobility in the game, but his Defensive mobility is no where near on the par of Zed, LeBlanc, Fizz, and other assassins. Plus, it's on a fixed distance, quite limited to the number of enemies present, a on-target mark cooldown, and is completely one hundred percent interruptable if you manage to land a skillshot when he's in mid dash.
The problem is laning phase where the mobility is both offensive and defensive. Its impossible to hit him with any skillshots or attacks so he hurts you and you can almost never retaliate. Even if you do hit him, you need to bust through that stupid shield first and then he can just dash away having taken no damage.
The problem is laning phase where the mobility is both offensive and defensive. Its impossible to hit him with any skillshots or attacks so he hurts you and you can almost never retaliate. Even if you do hit him, you need to bust through that stupid shield first and then he can just dash away having taken no damage.
Oh how I've seen this so often. It isn't impossible to hit him with skillshots. Why are you using your skillshost when there's a minion wave incoming and when he has windwall up? Hell, why are you using abilities when his flow is full? Why aren't you autoattacking him whenever you can (what Yasuo would windwall auto attacks?)? Why aren't you calling for your jungler to gank the easy to gank Yasuo when he pushes the lane (lets see him use that defensive mobility then)? I could go on and on, but I feel like the point still won't carry.
Oh how I've seen this so often. It isn't impossible to hit him with skillshots. Why are you using your skillshost when there's a minion wave incoming and when he has windwall up? Hell, why are you using abilities when his flow is full? Why aren't you autoattacking him whenever you can (what Yasuo would windwall auto attacks?)? Why aren't you calling for your jungler to gank the easy to gank Yasuo when he pushes the lane (lets see him use that defensive mobility then)? I could go on and on, but I feel like the point still won't carry.
"What Yasuo would wind-wall auto-attacks?"
Probably one fending off against a fed Cait. I've seen some pretty decent plays where Cait is just about to kill someone until Yasuo comes in and protects them with the wind-wall that stays up long enough to get away from even an ultimate (fog of war).
This also depends on the Jungler. Someone like Vi can easily destroy Yasuo, but if you're sending a Yi in? Easy, E through the Yi and throw a tornado back at him to peel off while running away.
If it's an ADC Jungler? AHAHAHA
[{quoted}](name=Burnt Light,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYEAyzHz,comment-id=0003000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-27T00:28:29.062+0000)
"What Yasuo would wind-wall auto-attacks?"
Probably one fending off against a fed Cait. I've seen some pretty decent plays where Cait is just about to kill someone until Yasuo comes in and protects them with the wind-wall that stays up long enough to get away from even an ultimate (fog of war).
This also depends on the Jungler. Someone like Vi can easily destroy Yasuo, but if you're sending a Yi in? Easy, E through the Yi and throw a tornado back at him to peel off while running away.
If it's an ADC Jungler? AHAHAHA
I was talking in the context of laning phase, like you suggested, mostly when trading against lane opponent. Unless you're facing something like Jhin mid on his fourth shot or Vayne top or something, you're not going to, because Windwall is on too long a cooldown to use it on something that doesn't have the potential to kill you when you're in danger of dying.
Yi can easily Delta (or is it called Alpha? I forget) Strike Yasuo charged Q and use it to gapclose on him and then proceed to murder him one he's in melee range, especially if he's the only available dash, and the quickest dash available is heading back into lane instead of towards turret.. ADC Junglers I might agree with, but then again, I've usually forced at least a flash from a Yasuo whenever I ganked as Kindred or Graves. They can easily reposition with their dashes and proceed to chase him off.
In response to the other post:
Yeah sure, it looks like burst damage... because against a squishy target, nearly anything is burst damage. Of course Squishies are going to blow up as if it were an assassin killing them if skirmishers are allowed to without retaliation from the team. The thing that sets Skirmishers apart is the fact that they can also deal damage against the beefier problems in the team, while trading off the reliable deletion of a high priority squishy (So... you utterly lack CC on the team once Yasuo's ult animation is finished to make sure he doesn't finish the job?). Also, you said the thing yourself... "BONUS armor penetration" Meaning from runes, masteries, and items. Unless it's a mage building Zhonya's, no ADC or Mage is building significant armor early on (maybe a cloth armor or two and a GA in the late game for ADCs), much less stacking it, because they're not supposed to. The bonus armor pen buff he gets from his ult is solely aimed at helping him at dealing with tanks when he would otherwise have trouble doing so if they have the slightest of a brain.
It is much less accessible... it's on an ultimate ability on a cooldown of one (I admit, negligible at rank 2 and 3) that lasts around 15 seconds, while the other Skirmishers pretty much have their tank killing power on their passives or normal abilities.
Yes, Yasuo lacks escape mobility, because, as you said, if it's a teamfight, Yasuo will be CC'ed the moment he completes a dash (point and clicks will cancel that dash where ever he's at once put under the effects, think Lissandra, Ryze, and Annie), windwall has dissipated, and/or his ult animation has finished and then duly dealt with (please don't try and say 4-5 people focusing a Yasuo building anything but the Frozen Force build won't delete him).
You say this and that, but it doesn't stop any of the champions from falling under the term of Skirmishers as they all have the requirements stated to be one; a way of dealing sustained damage against anyone and everything (which looks like burst damage against squishy targets because again... they can't take damage without nearly disappearing in the first place) while having some mobility but not on the level of being able to go in and out of a team fight like assassins (LeBlanc and Zed for example) and defensive tools to help them stay in the battle (Yi's -whatever- Strike and his Meditate counts. Even his Ult can be used to run away if needed).
I mean, the terms are already being used pretty widely by Riot all around. Hell, Kled has very recently been called a Skirmisher in the teamfighting section of his Champion Reveal. I've seen other terms like Artillery mages, Battle mages, and Burst mages being used to differentiate the styles between mages. Meddler has called Nocturne a Diver in a thread questioning why Nocturne wasn't in the Assassin update. The term Juggernauts has been used since before the list of planned classes have come to light.
The original Dev Blog was made by Stattik, and here's a list of all the champions and the classes where they fall under (which is, of course, tentative).
Well it's not like every champion uses autoattacks as their main source of damage, hell most only use autos to supplement their spell damage. Its like telling a vayne she can't use her autos and needs to rely on her spell damage to kill. That isn't even possible as far as i'm aware.
So you have a champion who can both not be hit by any skillshots because he is everywhere in the lane at once, and can avoid ranged attacks with his wall, AND has a shield which negates trades in lane. As such, a good yasuo will never lose a lanephase and then transition into lategame as a hypercarry.
Basically a similar problem to azir, they have no ACTUAL exploitable weakness, and no getting cc'd is not a weakness of any kind of champion because anyone can get cc'd and blown up (especially in this meta) so that argument altogether is invalid. Neither is targeted cc because ALL champions can be directly targeted by that same cc. Yasuo's ONLY flaw is his lack of mobility without targets to dash through but when fighting someone you already gain a target to dash through potentially negating some massive damage skillshot or spell.
He doesn't have infinite mobility. It is limited by the number of targets around him since there is a gap of time before he can dash the same target again.
what other champion gets 7-8-9 dpending on cannon minion and ult gapclosers every 30 seconds
only 1
kassadin
but his is managated that 7th gapclose consumes all his mana provided he has enough mana to gapclose that much at all which will take about idk 30 minutes for him to actually get there
Problem is that Yasuo was designed to do this and is doing it as designed. If other champions were doing it too much, then they'd get a nerfed because they weren't designed to do it as much.
I don't like fighting Yasuo, but he's working as intended for the most part (aside from not being able to play in bot).
It really says something about bot lane when champions that had designs in mind to play there start annoying the fuck out of the other lanes when played there.
Yas mid is like an ADC top. And Yas top feels embarrassing as fuck to lose to if you're a tank or bruiser.
Saying hes "working as designed" doesnt make something balanced. I could design a champion where his Q did 100% max HP true damage. His design is to 1-shot you. And when he does so, we would get people like you saying "but hes just doing what hes supposed to do".
True. Same can be said about Caitlyn's traps.
Her traps punish retards who walk over them.
Working as intended.
I like the double standard established here. "When this other champion does something obnoxious, it needs changed! What, my champion's obnoxious things? Completely balanced and don't need changed at all."
This is about what it would look like if I complained about Xerath's range as Ezreal.
But I'm not saying cait needs a change, where as OP wnats yasuo to have energy.
Can't give him energy costs. That would require giving him energy, and his secondary bar is already used to show his Flow.
And this comment is downvoted because...?
Caitlyn downvotes pretty much anything that he/she doesn't agree with.
Could be someone else, but I have a good feeling.
Betcha it's alt accounts. One downvote couldn't bring it to -1
Inb4 Every time target Yasuo dashed through in the last 1 second dies he refounds his energy. Costs 20 energy
Wait a minute that actually sounds legit
Give him energy but give him a way to refound it
Yah thats a good idea, make him work for that mobility at least.
Unless yasuo has enemies around he has no mobility, are you stupid? just stay away from the minion wave and he cant dash to you, run into the jungle if he's chasing you.