Is it just me or does the assassin rework seem more counterintuitive?

Astôlfo··51 votes·3,464 views

The whole point of the assassin rework was to add even more counterplay than the loads there already were. The ones asking for this were mostly the bad players who didn't already know or want to bother learning the pre-existing counterplay. The rework succeeded in that sense.

However, the general approach was by increasing the burst times with massive delays so that there was plenty of time to react to said assassination attempt. In return, the damage for actually landing said combo means it would hit far harder.

When the ones complaining in the first place are the ones who are fairly bad, it seems like the only thing that would happen is the bad players would get hurt even worse while better players would generally just laugh and pick a mage instead of an assassin, and then play at their high-tier of play.

If a high-tier player (outside of the top like Faker or such) played just about any assassin (excluding LeBlanc, Kha'Zix, and/or Rengar, possibly Katarina?), they probably would not get very far, due to how incredibly long the potential reaction time is, as well as being able to avoid the combo's main damage altogether for most of the current reworked assassins fairly easily.

Like, yes, congratulations, they are more potentially complex and potentially rewarding, but outside of a few exceptions, almost all of them would be completely useless in the face of a half-competent player. On the other hand, the lower-tier players who already can't dodge skillshots or respect kill zones/pressure timers and cooldowns would just get stomped even harder, and then probably complain even more.

EDIT: If you're going to downvote, at least bother posting why you disagree. Jeez.

145 Comments

Ralanr31 votes

So are we just ignoring that the assassin rework was also meant to diversify the individuals in the class so people would actually have a strategic reason to pick Talon over Zed beyond him being stronger in the current meta?

The rework IMO did help diversify the class (for the most part) and it also allowed ways for players to play around assassins. I won't disagree that there's some problems in their counterplay and their targets, but I feel that can be fixed with some Qol buffs.

Honestly the biggest issue I see is that divers do the assassin job better because they effectively function like old assassins but lack the escape (and get durability instead). So it makes them more reliable. I think when Riot reworks divers, this will become less apparent. They may make divers more sticky at the cost of some damage.

Astôlfo5 votes

Yes, Talon and Zed are more different now so there are different reasons to pick each one… except picking either one is a horrible idea to begin with, after the "rework".

Yeah, AD assassins are just worse divers and AP assassins are just worse combo-mages.

Ralanr14 votes

Hence why I think divers will be made more sticky and less damaging so they don't really step on the assassin's toes too much.

AP assassins I don't really have a comment on. Riot found a way to keep marksmen from heavily abusing AD assassin items, but there's no way to really make an item for an AP assassin that won't be heavily used by a mage since all mages pretty much make the strongest AP item a part of their core build.

Rylai's, DFG, etc.

Penns4 votes

Well Riot could just slap a "melee only" on those ap assassin items (or give them actives that work best on melee champs), I dont see a problem with that. LB wouldnt be able to buy them but shes like... basically a mobile mage anyway, not really more of an "assassin" than Ahri imo.

Ralanr11 votes

If Riot doesn't slap melee only on items like BC or Steraks then what in god's name would make you think they'd put melee only on an AP item (items built for champions that are more ability based than AA based mind you)?

At this point it's clear Riot supports their build diversity gameplay so much that they'll never restrict items to ranged and melee again. They probably only have Hydra as melee and hurricane as ranged because it'd be a bitch to code them as both.

I'm sorry but I'm honestly sick of hearing the same suggestion when it's clear that Riot ain't ever going to take it. We're beating a dead horse at this point.

And please no one send me a dead horse gif. I don't need to kill more data.

Penns3 votes

Well didnt they say they would do it do Duskblade and stuff if they were built on adcs all the time? So I dont think theyre 100% against it even tho they didnt do it.

Ralanr9 votes

At this point I'm pretty sure they just say that to calm people down. AP itemization can't seem to support much diversity among the classes that use it IMO and I doubt Riot can change that.

Penns2 votes

Hm, kind of sad imo because from what Ive seen people dont even care about AP assassins anymore. When someone talks about "assassins", they basically only talk about AD assassins by default. And when someone says "ap (mid lane) champs", theyre only talking about ranged mages :/

Ralanr6 votes

You're pretty much right IMO. AP assassins are only a hot topic when they themselves are too strong or AP items they use are too strong.

You guys are at the mercy of mage balance.

TheHappyReaperz10 votes

"Loads of counterplay there already were."

In what way did the old assassins have counter play?

Astôlfo8 votes

Warding, grouping, CC, counterbuilding, dodging.

TeCoolMage7 votes

That's pretty much every other non-ADC champion, including supports and tanks that have to deal with taking years to kill someone

Astôlfo9 votes

And? Does it have to be unique to just assassins if it still worked perfectly well?

TheHappyReaperz3 votes

Because wards work on an assassin who can go inisible, blink, then stab you in the back until your dead. Grouping works, with the exception of assassins who were AOE damage dealers, ie Kat, Talon, Fizz. You know your doing great when your an ADC with 300 armor, because why be useful, when the enemy team has an assassin? Wonderful things to dodge: Zed ult, Fizz Q, Kat's Shunpo, Old Talon Q/New Talon Q, etc. Assassins had little counterplay.

Astôlfo3 votes

Stealth doesn't last forever. Ward flank routes to see prior to stealth ability. Pinks affected all stealth back then.

Kat's AoE got instantly shut down by a single CC ability. Talon could be CC'd even in ult. Fizz's ult can be dodged altogether. The rest of his "AoE" is so small range it's effectively single target.

As an ADC: Zed ult - team just instantly CCs him before he can return, now he's dead. Yes, Fizz dashes into your team… okay? The Q alone won't kill you. Same concept with Shunpo. Old Talon Q was melee. If he's in melee, it's guaranteed suicide. New Talon Q damage is shit if not melee range.

Nah, people just didn't want to acknowledge it. Because who needs effort?

MisterJulia6 votes

the rework overall just made a lot of ppl quit their mains and go look for other champs outside the assassin class. I had 400k Mastery on Talon but he's not worthed anymore, I stopped playing him 2 days after the update was released. Talon item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070

ChaddyFantome17 votes

{quoted}

the rework overall just made a lot of ppl quit their mains and go look for other champs outside the assassin class. I had 400k Mastery on Talon but he's not worthed anymore, I stopped playing him 2 days after the update was released. Talon item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070 item 3070

Season 3 Talon main here. I actually LOVE the Talon changes. Talon is much more deep and rewarding now and less binary. Before, you just jumped on someone and pressed all your buttons for the most part. And the fact that pink wards don't reveal u now is bless.

He is much harder now and some matchups that were once easy are now difficult, like Veigar. But overall I think Talon greatly benefited from the changes.

Give it some time and IF you were a true Talon main at heart, I feel like you will find that talon is still the Talon you remember at his core.

Ahristocats5 votes

43% win rate yeah, he benefits from the changes

back in 2011 talon was my first main there is no way i play a gamebreaking roaming champ that has troubles to assassinate people now

TeCoolMage9 votes

benefit isn't always win rate. Look at Kassadin.

Nothing you said has anything to do with his comment

Ahristocats4 votes

"if you're a real talon main in heart you will find that talon is the same"

talon isn't the same, he's no longer the assassin that fits into wombo combo and assassination pathern was nerfed for a better roaming. he's like a second jungler, his laning phase sucks like before and anyway he sucks right now.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OxquIgXf,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-28T16:33:54.376+0000)

"if you're a real talon main in heart you will find that talon is the same"

talon isn't the same, he's no longer the assassin that fits into wombo combo and assassination pathern was nerfed for a better roaming. he's like a second jungler, his laning phase sucks like before and anyway he sucks right now.

His laning phase is much better now if only because 1, his W doesn't eat up all his mana as much now. and 2, he has a way to escape outside of ulti now.

Q changes also made it so he can get some minor sustain in lane to power through the harass.

Ahristocats3 votes

most likely because his W is delayed, before the mana cost was high but you could bully someone out of the lane due to W being unavoidable, and you still had mana back with corrupt potion. Now his W no longer slows on the ongoing blades, and his return blades deals most of the damage and has a 0.75 sec delay. are you kidding me?

it doesn't matter that his W has less mana, the waveclear is shittier since W damage was increased by 10 but reduced by 20% AD, you can no longer oneshot ranged creeps

Q heals for 17 or 25 in laning phase, that's less than a mage autoattack, that's like nothing.

his base ms was literally nuked, he's a walking free kill for the jungler in laning phase

there is no words for what happened to talon, he's an illusion, making people thinking that he's the same as before. He's like what i said a second jungler

ChaddyFantome4 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OxquIgXf,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-28T16:53:07.618+0000)

most likely because his W is delayed, before the mana cost was high but you could bully someone out of the lane due to W being unavoidable, and you still had mana back with corrupt potion. Now his W no longer slows on the ongoing blades, and his return blades deals most of the damage and has a 0.75 sec delay. are you kidding me?

it doesn't matter that his W has less mana, the waveclear is shittier since W damage was increased by 10 but reduced by 20% AD, you can no longer oneshot ranged creeps

Sure you can if you max the spell.

Even then, Talon needed Tiamat to do that before as well. It's pretty much the same scenario now.

Q heals for 17 or 25 in laning phase, that's less than a mage autoattack, that's like nothing.

the cooldown on Q lowers by 50% every time u kill a unit with it. It isn't supposed to make you unbeatable in lane and unable to be poked out. it is supposed to help you muscle through the laning phase. and it does this just fine.

his base ms was literally nuked, he's a walking free kill for the jungler in laning phase

Yes it was and its bothered me at first, but all he needs to do it walk to the nearest wall or structure and press E to escape the jungler.

Since his E scales with MS, it makes sense they would lower it a bit. Still not a fan of that change tho.

there is no words for what happened to talon, he's an illusion, making people thinking that he's the same as before. He's like what i said a second jungler

Honestly, i think you are just being petty and unwilling to give the guy a change now because they dared change anythign about him.

Looking at other reworks, they could have done terrible with talon but instead did something that not only befits him, but puts emphasis on what made Talon Talon and how Talon players played him and what we liked about him.

You can list the downsides to the changes, but imho they do not outweigh the positives by a mile. And while Talon after the rework needs some lovetaps to push him into a better stop, he is by no means "ruined". Not even close.

His kit is eons more well rounded and and balanced, and way more fulfilling than it was before and that alone makes it a success in my book. Winnrates are low? Ok all that means is i can expect my boi to get some buffs in the future. I don't see an issue with that.

And lastly, Talon was already a "second jungler", as he spent more time goign botlane for double kills than laning with his opponent before, assuming the enemy wasn't ass, as Talon hasn't been in anythign close to a good spot since the Marksman update.

Squey3 votes

While i agree with you, i also agree with the person above you. As a talon main, i loved playing him every time it was viable, ( knowing the lane opponent and team not needed ap) but he wasnt in a good enough spot pre-rework to pick blind. Now he is not only more enjoyable, diverse, and active in fights. He is also blind pickable. The serious downsides i have with him though are

  1. alot of divers do his job better then him, faster then him, more reliably then him, and live longer then him.
  2. alot of mages do his job faster, farther away, and dont need to do it to even be effective in a fight.
  3. while his early game is insane, it is very counterable.
  4. and the biggest issue i have with him is in a 5v5 team fight his job is retardedly difficult if not near impossible. he has to deal with exhuast, insane shielding, peel, cc, heals, and all the while going at someone who will 100% out dps you and kite you and kill uif u miss even 1 of ur abilities.
    His early game is insane and fun but if u dont snowball harder then any snowball champ in the game and the game gets to mid game then you become garbage. Yes you will still at times find that opening in a team fight but you will fail to more often. I bet you if u saw average game for talon players it would be really high early game and decline rapidly past 20 min. At least this is what i have noticed in my plat games playing as, with , or against the talon.
AgentBlack6 votes

I think another purpose of the Assassin rework that nobody's recognizing is that your choice of assassin is more important now. I'm not an Assassin player, but I'll try to think of some decent examples...

Zed's ultimate now scales with the AD of his target - he was already great against Jhin, able to reliably assassinate him, and is now even more rewarded for counterpicking appropriately. However, as he's now balanced around that potential, he's weaker when he's forced to prioritize AP and utility targets like Cassiopeia and Soraka.

Talon excels at assassinating targets who need foresight to survive assassinations, like Caitlyn and Jhin (who partially rely on traps), because he has a reliable gapcloser and can attack from unpredictable angles.

Katarina mobility lets her excel against skillshot based peel, while being as vulnerable as ever to targeted CC.

Kha'zix excels against isolated targets, making him invaluable in skirmishes and weaker in full-on teamfights.

Etc etc. Assassins were reworked to have counterplay in general, but also to give them strengths and weaknesses in terms of who they can reliably assassinate. The delayed damage on their kits also means that a snowballing Assassin can usually assassinate their targets while holding their escape tools (Rengar's W, Katarina's W, Talon's wall jump if he doesn't use it to enter a fight), but can choose to sacrifice those tools for more reliable assassination if they're even or behind.

It's preseason, so Riot has a lot of tuning to do, but I'm calling it a success as things start to settle down.

Sraeg20131 votes

Except that Zed actually gains more AD from an ADC with only IE with 1st rank of the ultimate, than he used to with W until like level 14 while having 300 AD.

Jhin is the only exception, but hardly a counterpick.

AgentBlack2 votes

That's the point, though: now Zed actively wants to kill the ADC as opposed to just any squishy that comes in range. He's stronger when he can do so, but weaker when his priority target is non-AD, a la Cassiopeia or Soraka. This makes him a counterpick to AD-heavy teams (AD midlaners like Yasuo, melee carries like Fiora) and ADCs that prioritize AD (like Jhin, as opposed to Vayne).

Sraeg20131 votes

Except he only needs to do it to refresh the passive after leveling up the ult.

As I said, he gets more AD from rank 1 ult on any AD champion, than he used to with 300 AD until level 14.

AgentBlack2 votes

Yeah, but just because he wants to kill an AD Champion to refresh the bonus doesn't mean he'll easily pull it off. And in the meantime, he may be focused on an AD Champion at the expense of a higher priority, non-AD target.

As Zed stands now, he's rewarded for prioritizing AD Champions, and punished when he can't. This logically makes him better against teams with more AD Champions, especially ones that prioritize stacking AD. It gives him a niche that he didn't have before.

Big Lincoln5 votes

they should have focused more on making assassins about fast decisions instead of this weirdly drawn out shit

played Bard mid and up until enemy Leblanc snowballed off my team to get a lead I was crushing her in most trades. kind of ridiculous lol

Astôlfo6 votes

Like, most of the assassins are literally just crappier fighters with less survivability (for AD) or battle combo mages (for AP). It literally prevents making quick decisions and good, fast plays, because of the absurdly long built-in delays.

Ralanr3 votes

I feel they promote more focus on planning ahead then quick reactions.

The assassin is supposed to make their target react. At least that's how I understand it.

Big Lincoln3 votes

even when planning ahead you can't really do much if they have an attentive support

it's kinda dumb how it works, assassins should be countered with good reflexes and positioning, not getting out of a trap within 1.5 seconds and winning the duel every time

Ralanr1 votes

"Attentive support"

Supports were also the monkey wrench to assasinations. That's pretty much intended.

And is it really a duel if the support is there?

Astôlfo4 votes

And assassins should be able to kill said carry surrounded by 1 or more teammates with good play. Let alone delete a carry by themselves. But they can barely do even that as is now.

Ralanr2 votes

{quoted}

And assassins should be able to kill said carry surrounded by 1 or more teammates with good play. Let alone delete a carry by themselves. But they can barely do even that as is now.

Better define good play. Because that's where individual skill comes in.

As for deleting the carry alone, I find it hard to take you seriously because I have seen and done it several times on an assassin when I set it up properly.

Astôlfo3 votes

But did the carry play it badly?

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

Here's the thing with assasins. They are meant to be niche, not a everygame pick.

Like what Zoneout said below me, Assassins are each meant for a specific target/purpose. If you don't have an appropriate target on the enemy team you didn't pick well.

They are not something you pick everygame, now they are a counterpick.

Astôlfo2 votes

I'm not sure how you got that out of what I said...

6Sfool4 votes

They wanted counterplay in terms of reacting, not dueling. If an assassin jumps on a lone adc they should almost always win, but the adc should at least have a half a second where they realize that they're getting jumped. Before, most assassins were not all that flashy, but just instagibbed unsuspecting people. Now especially with LB, you have a little bit of reaction time to get behind minions or flash away. This was not entirely successful, but I feel like it at least took a lot of frustration out of the game.

In summary - The "what just happened??" was turned into "OH SHIT!!"

Astôlfo2 votes

Eh, I'd be fine with that except like, they made the delay far too long and just made the damage on anyone it does hit far stronger. AKA, it pretty much won't hit most good players but it'll curbstomp the hell out of worse players.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Correction, damage across the board is too high; and riot shifted the blame entirely onto the assassins so their precious marksmen are overlooked.

Tha Light4 votes

I believe that this is the biggest problem. It`s kinda funny that AA ADCs that should excel at constant DPS can burst you faster than casters ADCs and assassins. Same goes for AP champs.

Emojay2 votes

Lulu

ChaddyFantome6 votes

"Oh, you wanna kill my ADC?"

  • Presses W

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XysDv7v0KeA

Elewd2 votes

Correction, the ap Assassins actual got the "window of time" thing on them and its obvious because they dont feel as strong as they used to (leblanc/Akali) while the ad assassins are exactly the same just flashier.

Astôlfo3 votes

Besides Rengar and Kha'Zix, Talon's abilities and combo got slowed down quite a lot, Zed's W passive got removed, and AD Shaco got gutted altogether.

Great Muta1 votes

Assassins are worse than ever. Just as bursty and more damage. Talon can outduel a Yi 1v1(say this first hand), Rengar destroys everyone and Khaz does way too much damage. Not sure where the "playability" part comes in, but I haven't seen it. As it stands right now, you pick Talon = You got an easy 15 kills.

Ralanr4 votes

With Talon, there's the delay in his W and that he needs to AA you to proc his bleed. Yi is pretty weak right now so him being outdueled by Talon is more because Yi is weak.

Kha'zix and Rengar are just a bit too strong right now.

ChaddyFantome8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OxquIgXf,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-11-28T15:05:58.806+0000)

Assassins are worse than ever. Just as bursty and more damage. Talon can outduel a Yi 1v1(say this first hand), Rengar destroys everyone and Khaz does way too much damage. Not sure where the "playability" part comes in, but I haven't seen it. As it stands right now, you pick Talon = You got an easy 15 kills.

Yi will outduel Talon if the Yi isn't grossly behind and isn't dumb. Early level, sure, because Yi is always weak early and talon's level 2 is strong with his passive. But past that, all Yi has to do to win is press W right before Talon procs his Bleed.

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