Suggestions: Base AD Itemization for Juggernauts

La Bello··29 votes·1,377 views

I think Riot should add more BASE AD to items to give Juggernauts a nice corner of Itemization. Riot now it feels like most Juggernauts just go Cleaver/T-Force into Full Tank dipping a bit out of both the pure tank options and pure offensive options to find a in-between. I want to give Juggernauts some more viable options specifically to give them sharper Item direction and some more tailored options that give Juggernauts their intended mix of Beefiness and damage.


WHY BASE AD IS A GOOD DEFINING LINE +Marksmen and non Juggernauts have a hard time making use of it! Base AD does not interact with BONUS AD scaling meaning your classic high AD focused champions will avoid these items. Riven,Zed and Fiora will still be better off going high AD focused builds due to scalings. If Riven opted for this kind of itemization she might be tankier but would ultimately sacrifice a large plot of power. +Synergy with current Juggernaut Itemization item 3053 item 3078 and item 3025 +Juggernauts having access to TOTAL AD ratios often means these items will benefit this class in particular but have reduced effect on others

ITEMS THAT SHOULD HAVE THEIR STAT LINE REWORKED TO INCLUDE BASE AD FOR JUGGY's

item 3742 At the moment this Item is in a weird spot. Makings its initial debut in the Juggernaut class rework this item sees very little play nowadays thanks to it often being unable to compete with items with a similar stat line item 3068 item 3075 item 3143 . This Item is clearly for Juggernauts who often heavily rely on closing the distance however its stat line is suited more for tanks. The tanks however often don't build Dead Mans due to tanks caring more about the amount of damage they can soak rather than mobility and this item tends to be inefficient compared to other survivability options.to add If a tank REALLY wants to gap close they wont get Deadmans they will get item 3800 because often tanks value INITIATION power over stick power.

So in conclusion I really think Riot should re balance this Item for Juggernauts, re balancing the stat line and introducing base attack damage into this items stat line.

MY SUGGESTION: item 3742 -125 HP -15 Armor +20 Base AD +Crushing Blow passive now has a additional BASE AD ratio and no longer procs for ranged champions

NEW STAT LINE W SIMILAR GOLD EFFICIENCY 300 HP 45 Armor 20 Base AD

item 3022 With the removal of Atmas Frozen Mallet has really had trouble standing out among other options . Hopefully this suggested will make it much more viable option when looking for sticking power on Juggernauts and bring Frozen Mallet back to a limelight on low CC bruisers and Juggernauts

+BONUS AD> BASE AD -100 HP +10% CDR +slow now works on all forms of **PHYSICAL **damage with reduced effectiveness for DoTs and spell damage . Auto attacks=40% slow, spells=20% slow,DoT=15% slow. all values are HALVED on ranged champions.

NEW STAT LINE 30 BASE AD 600 HP. 10% Cooldown Reduction

Anyways those are my suggestions for attempting to increase build variety among the Juggernaut class.

32 Comments

Sire Hippington11 votes

it feels like most Juggernauts just go Cleaver/T-Force into Full Tank

That's not really because juggernaut's lack proper off/hybrid items but more becuase they desperately need that tankiness past the laneingphase to do anything at all, atleast in high elos. With your changes, hardly any juggernaut would get deadmens unless snowbaling because of the lacking tankiness.

And while base-ad for items feels like a good idea for juggernauts, it has some serious issues. Mostly item 3078 . If your item changes get done, prepare to see Irelia running wild with item 3078 +item 3022 +item 3053 +item 3742 for insane trinity procs paired with absurd stickiness and decent tankiness for a mobile fighter.

La Bello1 votes

yeah my biggest fear would be characters like Irelia or Jax who rely on combat stats other than Bonus AD completely steamrolling everything while being unkillable (I'll never forget the tank yasuo patches back when he could itemize PD,Tabi and FM while still maintaining his high damage output).

I definitely think Riot would have to adjust Sheen/Triforce before shipping this which could inadvertently effect the non juggernaut champions who rely on Triforce. Corki MonkeyKing Ezreal Gangplank Shaco Vi Camille could all be hurt really badly.

Off the top of my head my guess would be that Riot would have to make Sheen scale off Base AD and Bonus AD together in a 80/20 split leaning towards Base AD . You would have to crunch numbers in a way that the glass cannon squishies would still benefit from the item with high enough bonus AD but the scaling is low enough that Juggernauts dont get TOO much mileage out of it just any sort of AD (Looking at you Darius...) .

Diamond Key16 votes

What about AP itemization for Juggernauts?

Jeddy0174 votes

You say "Juggernauts", but don't you really mean Mordekaiser? Isn't he the only Juggernaut with a significant amount of AP scaling?

Diamond Key11 votes

Well yeah :D that is what I meant

Shadow Hazard1 votes

In my opinion "AP juggernauts" are simply battle mages for the most part.

Jeddy0171 votes

I assume you mean the likes of Vlad, Swain, maybe even Rumble & Ryze.

La Bello1 votes

you can also make a case for AurelionSol Diana Swain Rumble

TequilaZombie2 votes

Aurelion is not a Juggernaut by any means. Diana is an AP Fighter/Assassin hybrid with a whole lot more mobility than any Juggernaut should ever have, I'd rather classify Evenlynn as a Juggernaut than Diana.

Agreed on Swain and Rumble, tho.

RankOneUganda1 votes

morde is quite a toxic champions for melees to deal with.

Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes

I actually run Deadman's on some ranged AP champs for a perma movespeed buff since I rarely even auto. It's fun as hell.

XxxLumberJackxxX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yi Shenpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OwcGlBmV,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-08-27T17:02:34.278+0000)

I actually run Deadman's on some ranged AP champs for a perma movespeed buff since I rarely even auto. It's fun as hell.

Veigar uses it well

Acheron162 votes

So people can buy tank items+Triforce and hit just as hard as adc crit? And turn Frozen Mallet into the new Rilays except AD?

Yeah no, these ideas create a lot more problems than they solve.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

So people can buy tank items+Triforce and hit just as hard as adc crit? And turn Frozen Mallet into the new Rilays except AD?

Yeah no, these ideas create a lot more problems than they solve.

the idea is good. but it would require to rework sheen procs.

they should probably just make sheen combined level scaling damage and base ad, so they can somewhat reduce the impact of the base ad scaling and introduce more items like steraks gage.

Acheron161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OwcGlBmV,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2017-08-27T17:28:47.956+0000)

the idea is good. but it would require to rework sheen procs.

they should probably just make sheen combined level scaling damage and base ad, so they can somewhat reduce the impact of the base ad scaling and introduce more items like steraks gage.

Not even that. Base AD is pretty much the same as normal AD except it scales better with Triforce and marginally better with total AD items.

So this guy is specifically suggesting these changes so that TriForce (an item prefered by a lot of Juggernauts) ends up stronger and they have easier access to items that offer tank stats paired with damage, a very dangerous combination.

When people suggest these they usually think of a purely Juggernaut VS marksman confrotation, and tend to forget that fighters, tanks, tank supports exist and those are usually the ones that end up fighting Juggernauts, most often than not ending up in the Juggernaut's favour.

Great care is needed when suggesting changes that pair defense items with offensive stats, otherwise it just ends up making a class completely overbearing.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Not even that. Base AD is pretty much the same as normal AD except it scales better with Triforce and marginally better with total AD items.

So this guy is specifically suggesting these changes so that TriForce (an item prefered by a lot of Juggernauts) ends up stronger and they have easier access to items that offer tank stats paired with damage, a very dangerous combination.

When people suggest these they usually think of a purely Juggernaut VS marksman confrotation, and tend to forget that fighters, tanks, tank supports exist and those are usually the ones that end up fighting Juggernauts, most often than not ending up in the Juggernaut's favour.

Great care is needed when suggesting changes that pair defense items with offensive stats, otherwise it just ends up making a class completely overbearing.

the risk in making ad/defensive items isnt in making juggernauts too strong. thats riots least concern usually. the problem is the side effect these items have on divers, assassins and adc.

like when items like steraks or frozen mallet are built on marksmen, or we have a meta of bruiser assassins stacking jugg items, is when we have serious problems.

op's suggestion is in principle a good idea because % base ad bonuses benefit juggernauts more than squishier carries, since

a) juggs have the highest base ad/lvl scaling in the game, so they benefit most from the bonuses and get more ad from it than other champions

b) their abilities scale with total ad, while most squishier champions abilities scale with bonus ad. so items like steraks dont factor into adc and assassin abilities, but into abilities like garens q and spin, or darius q and w.

thats why its generally a good idea to make juggernaut items scale off base ad and make them increase base ad.

the only thing thats in the way of that is sheen really. otherwise the ability to increase base ad off multiple items and stack that with an item like triforce, would make sheen procs insanely bursty and entirely broken.

if riot were to rework the way sheen procs scale, they could design an entire item line targeted at divers and juggernauts that works off base ad increases.

Acheron161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OwcGlBmV,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-27T19:25:09.988+0000)

the risk in making ad/defensive items isnt in making juggernauts too strong. thats riots least concern usually. the problem is the side effect these items have on divers, assassins and adc.

like when items like steraks or frozen mallet are built on marksmen, or we have a meta of bruiser assassins stacking jugg items, is when we have serious problems.

op's suggestion is in principle a good idea because % base ad bonuses benefit juggernauts more than squishier carries, since

a) juggs have the highest base ad/lvl scaling in the game, so they benefit most from the bonuses and get more ad from it than other champions

b) their abilities scale with total ad, while most squishier champions abilities scale with bonus ad. so items like steraks dont factor into adc and assassin abilities, but into abilities like garens q and spin, or darius q and w.

thats why its generally a good idea to make juggernaut items scale off base ad and make them increase base ad.

the only thing thats in the way of that is sheen really. otherwise the ability to increase base ad off multiple items and stack that with an item like triforce, would make sheen procs insanely bursty and entirely broken.

if riot were to rework the way sheen procs scale, they could design an entire item line targeted at divers and juggernauts that works off base ad increases.

But still wouldnt solve anything, just make Juggernauts blatantly overpowered.

OP's specific complaint is that Juggernauts buy Cleaver+Triforce and build full tank. Yet they seem to manage just fine with that. If extra damage is added then they get absolutely ridiculous, the ultimate example of "I could get near you, now you will 100% die"

Every other game or so I always see a juggernaut top, usually Darius, and I never saw them struggle at all. If these changes went ahead the only result would be Juggernauts being OP for two patches and then get their base damages chain nerfed so that they are now forced to buy these items to function.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

But still wouldnt solve anything, just make Juggernauts blatantly overpowered.

no, it allows them to make targeted bruiser itemization for the class without the risk of making other carry classes overpowered.

juggernauts ARE already building tanky + damage oriented builds. but its difficult to support the class with proper itemization without breaking other classes in the process and turning them into "mobile juggernauts" like weve seen with hecarim last season.

juggernauts are supposed to be tanky melee carries. thats their entire purpose.

their engagements are slow and telegraphed and theyre easy to kite and disengage on. in return theyre supposed to dish out hypercarry damage while being almost as tanky as actual tanks, when they get into your face and into the middle of the enemy team.

and if youve seen it or not. in general game comparison, a lot of juggernauts are undertuned atm. especially with marksmen running rampant due to all the support and tank protection, its hard for them to turn even an early game victory into the ability to carry games.

they can get fed as crazy early game and are still useless midgame against adc who are walled off behind cc and shields. ive legit seen marksmen play like shit and get caught out by juggernauts in teamfights, just to sit in place and kill the juggs with auto attacks because they received multiple heals and shields during the fight.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Yeah, a Juggernaut should hit harder than an ADC.

That's what they get for being really slow and kitable.

La Bello1 votes

Well I dont think Juggernauts should hit HARDER than someone who built full glass cannon but they should definitely be able to OVERWHELM them if they ever manage to close the gap through their mix of HP/Resist while still maintaining decent enough sustained damage to that point that Ashe cant just sit in one spot and facetank/outheal their damage . If a Darius ever gets to Ashe with at least 50% hp left he should probably come out on top or at least 1 for 1 trade.

EternalSmiley1 votes

My my! This is an interesting post, i loved reading it. keep up the constructive thinking :)

Mordepool1 votes

Deadman is fine.
Frozen Mallet that is a Great Change making it Base AD driven damage and slow pushes it back towards Fighters

WacingTheFind1 votes

deadmans stats are fine, but the base AD ratio seems a good idea.

Toru Itai1 votes

I agree. what they did with Supports VS mages and the base MP/5 stat was a good direction for future balance.

(they'd have to change base AD/lvl on all AD champs to do this right, which would be a lot of work, but it'd probably fix a lot.)

Teridax681 votes

I completely agree with making more juggernaut-oriented items provide base AD in order to lower their chance of abuse by non-juggernauts, and more generally I support the idea of making items amplify base stats, instead of offering flat amounts. In the short term, this might require adjusting a lot of base stats, which is likely why Riot didn't want to implement such changes for health and resists during the Tank Update, but in the long term, it would naturally bind stats to classes by making certain champions the only ones to truly get the most out of their intended items.

Just to stay on the subject of juggernauts, I think you could go one step further and have those items amplify base HP, instead of providing bonus HP, and bump up the base health and growth of juggernauts to adjust. That way, they'd be guaranteed to make the most out of their own items, which would provide AD and HP in such a way that it would scale the best on them, and it would also allow those items to be made strong without getting hijacked as easily by other classes, who'd lose a ton of value simply by virtue of not getting nearly as many of the item's stats.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

hp nerfs are a bad idea, since juggernauts are balanced and designed around health stacking.

think mundos e, olafs passive, darius and illaois % missing health heals, yoricks ghouls/maiden and steraks shield.

when riot reworked the class, they set 4000+ health and 250 ad for a full build jugg as a goal. if youre removing health from these items, its going to hit them hard, since all of them have health scalings in their kits. health is supposed to be their main defensive stat that keeps them alive in the middle of the enemy team.

another problem is, that base ad items would be limited by item 3078

not every juggernaut wants the item, and youd basically make jugg itemization for them garbage just because triforce exists.

we need to rework sheen procs before we can add more base ad increasing items.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

if anything, we should increase health on juggernaut items and give them more resistances built into their kits.

Blåbæret1 votes

OP is suggesting nerfs to survability lol. Juggs can't survive without it. Juggs don't need more damage.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I'd say make it +% Base AD like Sterak's. That way it has greater effect on high base AD champions like Juggernauts and less on low AD like Assassins and ADCs.

Sageace1 votes

While I do not agree with your Item Changes, I do agree we could change items TOWARDS the Juggernauts by applying Base AD and Base HP effects.

Dr Dormidon1 votes

B-but Darius scales with bonus AD :(

Mokuto Bunshi1 votes

Thumbs up for the idea, need to be fleshed out more.

CHANGE IS GOOOOOOOD Khazix

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