Seriously Riot... WTF IS WRONG IS WRONG WITH YOU

SymbolicFear·Oct 14, 2015·4 votes·1,703 views

Just read 5.20 patch notes... I am sooooo close to giving up on this game riot... Darius still has his incredibly high % heal on his Q, he still gets insane amounts of AD from his passive, and the only things tuned down was his slow and Q width, which isn't that big of a deal... Riot, I know you think Juggernauts should be immensely strong, but when they have % heal on moderate cooldown, bleeding passive that buffs for massive amounts of AD, a pull & slow, and a deleting ult that resets each kill is too much. If a champion only has to buy 1 ad item or goes full tank, there is no reason they should be able to dominate like this.

At this point, I would say to revert the changes from 5.20 and instead reduce the heal on his Q to maybe a flat number and 2% heal for each enemy champion you hit. Maybe even make the flat number increase per level but no more than 350 per target. Just tuning down his heal to this point, should make him balanced to the same level as other champions for his role.

62 Comments

AithosOct 14, 20154 votes

The problem isn't the heal at all, just like with past nerfs to champions like Riven and Akali it's just two main factors:

people don't know how to lane properly and are either too passive or over aggressive, especially at low MMR.
we don't have a real communication system and so it's very difficult to prevent a good Darius from getting a reset in solo queue.

I think Darius is in a fine place, if you watched him over the past two weeks at worlds he was very hit or miss based on the team and matchup. The heal is necessary or he becomes too easy to kite and kill again. Besides, making the Q smaller and easier to dodge IS a nerf to the heal...

SymbolicFearOct 14, 20151 votes

The issue with using Worlds as an example, is that only pro's play like pro's... 95% of the time, your team won't have communication like pros, 95% of the time, your team won't have the mechanics and skills of pros, so when someone uses that 5% to judge the entirety, its just not how it should be done.

Darius has the most sustain in the game right now, his damage is massive and he also has a pull. His slow may have been the big way he applied his stacks, but it doesn't change how safe and powerful he is right now. Besides, it was 20 range nerf on his Q, that is almost unnoticeable to be completely honest.

He is a juggernaut, he is supposed to be kited into oblivion, considering that is the only weakness these juggernauts have, taking that away leaves too little room for counterplay.

AithosOct 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The issue with using Worlds as an example, is that only pro's play like pro's... 95% of the time, your team won't have communication like pros, 95% of the time, your team won't have the mechanics and skills of pros, so when someone uses that 5% to judge the entirety, its just not how it should be done.

Darius has the most sustain in the game right now, his damage is massive and he also has a pull. His slow may have been the big way he applied his stacks, but it doesn't change how safe and powerful he is right now. Besides, it was 20 range nerf on his Q, that is almost unnoticeable to be completely honest.

He is a juggernaut, he is supposed to be kited into oblivion, considering that is the only weakness these juggernauts have, taking that away leaves too little room for counterplay.

I think you're being a bit generous estimating 5% of the time your team with have any of the attributes of pros. The problem with that argument is that it absolutely IS how it should be done. You never, ever balance a competitive game on anything except the highest level of competitive play. Period.

If your top laner is incapable of laning against Darius that's a problem for your top laner to figure out, it's not the person playing Darius' problem. If your team can't communicate and know when to run and when to fight that's a problem for your team to figure out, not the Darius' team. Darius is a SOLID top-tier pick, he's not even close to OP (which Mordekaiser is clearly more on that line).

Darius doesn't have close to the most sustain in the game, and it's entirely dependent on his ability to hit multiple champions and iirc it is also based on the number of stacks he has. Also, it's a nerf to the WIDTH, not just the range. That means the dead zone around him where you can step close to avoid the blade is larger and it has slightly less range.

Besides, he is SUPER easy to kite and there are quite a number of lane counters to him. Renekton, Gnar, Fiora, Lissandra, Lulu are just a few of the champs who can easily beat him in lane. You and the other crybabies of GD just need to learn to master champions and matchups instead of expecting nerfs every time a champion with a snowball mechanic is viable. Darius has been garbage in competitive for a LONG time and he's just now worth considering.

SymbolicFearOct 15, 20151 votes

What they should do is balance the game overall. Not for any one select group of people. Not just the pros, not just the majority, but everything. Thing is, its a little more time consuming and Riot doesn't want to do that. But the issue with that, is this game becomes toxic. It becomes much more infuriating to play, resulting into angry players and the prevention of new players. A majority of new players stop soon after starting due to the game not being enjoyable as it takes too long to get the champions you want to play, you lose repeatedly due to smurfs, or etc. Riot is really only hurting themselves by doing this. Only their die-hard fans such as myself and most other forum users, will stay hoping for a better turn-out.

AithosOct 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What they should do is balance the game overall. Not for any one select group of people. Not just the pros, not just the majority, but everything. Thing is, its a little more time consuming and Riot doesn't want to do that. But the issue with that, is this game becomes toxic. It becomes much more infuriating to play, resulting into angry players and the prevention of new players. A majority of new players stop soon after starting due to the game not being enjoyable as it takes too long to get the champions you want to play, you lose repeatedly due to smurfs, or etc. Riot is really only hurting themselves by doing this. Only their die-hard fans such as myself and most other forum users, will stay hoping for a better turn-out.

No, they really shouldn't and what you're suggesting isn't possible. The reason you balance based on the pros is because those are the people who give you the best information about relative power of champions, they are significantly closer in skill/knowledge/potential than any other segment of players. They make the smallest number of mistakes and their skill-cap is very similar, as soon as you start looking at the "average" player it seriously skews the data because of the large number of mistakes and misplays inherent in their play.

That's why you NEVER balanced based on a champion being a "pubstomper" in low ELO and why the Akali nerfs were really stupid in S3. She was a fringe competitive pick, only really taken as a comfort champion in very specific circumstances and she had clearly defined weaknesses that could be easily exploited to make playing against her easy. The same was true of Riven except her early game was a little more oppressive in lane, Riven needed some slight adjustments (and she was hit a bit too hard initially but is ok now).

The problem with champions like Riven, Akali and Darius in average ELO is two-fold:

People don't have a solid grasp of the fundamentals of how to lane. I see so many people in Silver and Gold that expect to start with the same items and use the same lane strategy in every match-up. Then if they get behind (have to back or give up a kill) they think they can go to lane and play the same way because 300g isn't that big a deal. It's not the gold, it's the EXP. If you're two levels down you're at a HUGE disadvantage even if the only difference is a ruby crystal or a long sword.
People don't know how to be aggressive or safe without being over-aggressive or overly passive. You need to know how to remain relevant even when you're behind, and you need to know how to work with your team to make sure that you're doing what needs to be done to win the game. If you're against an Akali it is absolutely crucial to punish her levels 1-5, if you don't you're probably going to lose (same with Katarina). If you even just let her sit under tower and CS for free...you're losing. You need to have people push and roam, get jungle help, dive her if you can do it safely. You need to force her out of lane and then get an exp advantage to take her tower and not let her roam.

Darius is similar, he's strong but he's VERY easy to out-position and with good jungle pressure you can zone him and keep him down pretty easily. If you itemize properly you can still push on him and look to make a TP play while he's dealing with a big wave, your timing just has to be better because the timing window is smaller since he can push quickly as well. That's why Renekton, Fiora and Gnar are all good choices against him. Renekton can out-push and out-trade him and look to snowball bot-lane or mid, Gnar can poke him to death and force him to base and lose exp, and Fiora can out-position and out-play with her riposte and kill him straight up.

However, if you just let him farm up or you mis-position and get killed...or you let him get into your team when you're low and he gets up stacks and a reset...of course the game is over. He's a snowball champion, that's the way he works. If you let him get big he'll hard carry, if you shut him down he's basically a kiteable meat-shield and nothing else. His pull is easy to predict/avoid, his ult can be flashed if you have fog of war, and he's SUPER kitable. Try playing as Darius vs Gnar with frozen mallet if you don't believe me, even with flash you might not ever get a pull on him...

The game is not toxic because of strong champions, the game is toxic because there isn't (yet) a preference queue and so matchmaking isn't fair. The team that gets more people in their best roles has a HUGE advantage, because no one is as good at ALL the roles as their best one. The other reason is because this is a fast-paced strategy game that relies on split-second decisions and we have no instant method of hands-free communication. So games can swing on a single engage or decision that you can't even discuss with your team, you have to HOPE that your teammates are watching pings and interpret them the way you intend them. That's a bad competitive environment.

Also, smurfs have almost no impact on the game. The VAST majority of them place above where average players are and the ones that don't climb out of that MMR range incredibly quickly (under 30 games). So to blame your inability to climb on "smurfs" is ridiculous, just like blaming bad luck or feeding teammates is complete BS. Everyone who queues for a reasonable number of games has the same chance of having feeders, afks, trolls or smurfs. The only constant in your games is YOU, how you perform game in and game out will decide the results, even though the matchmaking isn't fair...because you're just as likely to get the good team as the bad.

Thankfully, they are going to finally make the needed change (preference queue) and hopefully add voice communication as well (which I'm guessing is the "surprise" feature in champ select everyone liked). Those things will make the game more fair and more consistently competitive, but it won't make it necessarily "easier" to climb, it will just take less games to achieve a real reflection of your skill because it will be a little less random.

SymbolicFearOct 19, 20151 votes

First off, I'd like to explain what I meant with everything about smurfs... I am not talking about myself, I have no problem playing against any person, but when you have someone who just now picked up the game and created their first account, smurfs are a massive issue, cause nobody enjoys losing every single game just cause someone has the unfair advantage of experience against you when you JUST STARTED.

SymbolicFearOct 15, 20151 votes

Also, Darius is has a higher power level than 95% of the rest of the champions at the start of the game. I see no reason for a champion to have: High Sustain on Moderate Cooldown(% heal on Q) a bleeding passive that increases its damage per stack as well as giving 200 bonus AD on 5th stack, a pull to stop kiting counter-play that also slows, and an ult that instantly deletes targets that are at 3/4 of their health. All these things on someone who goes nearly FULL TANK in item build has no right to absolutely stomp people. He has too much right now and they need to tone him down a bit to make him balanced with the rest of the champions.

AithosOct 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Also, Darius is has a higher power level than 95% of the rest of the champions at the start of the game. I see no reason for a champion to have: High Sustain on Moderate Cooldown(% heal on Q) a bleeding passive that increases its damage per stack as well as giving 200 bonus AD on 5th stack, a pull to stop kiting counter-play that also slows, and an ult that instantly deletes targets that are at 3/4 of their health. All these things on someone who goes nearly FULL TANK in item build has no right to absolutely stomp people. He has too much right now and they need to tone him down a bit to make him balanced with the rest of the champions.

Again, I don't agree, at all. Darius does NOT have a higher power than 95% of the champions, he can easily be out-traded by any number of champions. Renekton beats him, Fiora can beat him, Gnar beats him, Olaf can beat him, Pantheon can beat him, Jarvan can beat him, Shyvana can beat him, Lissandra can beat him, Kennen can beat, I could go on...

His sustain is reliant on hitting champions, not minions, that means its up to YOU to prevent him from healing and if you let it happen it's YOUR position at fault. If you're getting max stacks in trades, your positioning is poor and it's YOUR fault. His pull does NOT slow, that's his W he's weaving to reset his AA after the pull, and a simple way to prevent it...is to know and avoid being inside pull range. It's not a mystery, play Darius a bit and you'll learn it pretty well.

Also, his ULT doesn't do THAT much unless you let him get full stacks, with at least rank 2 and some items. It's up to YOU to itemize against that (HP vs armor) and to make sure he doesn't get to the point where he can all-in you without penalty. If you can't do it alone then you need to alert your jungle, get some wards up (to prevent a counter-gank) and shut him down before he gets too far ahead. These are all decisions on YOUR team and have no reflection at all on the power of the champion.

He also doesn't go full tank, he often goes two damage items and two tank items in a typical build because he's a BRUISER and not a tank. Darius is a great example of a good/powerful champion that is well-balanced. He is not an auto-win and you can see how little he's been banned throughout worlds after the first week. He is pretty easy to play around and requires good play to really tilt games, he's been pretty ineffective in worlds. This is just a case of low MMR players not being willing to put in the time/effort to learn/understand the champions and how to beat them.

In S3 when Riven and Akali were considered OP I had a 90% win rate AGAINST those champions. A big part of that was I played both of them and I KNEW what it took to shut them down, and when the enemy team picked them I made sure my team let me lane against them because I KNEW that I wouldn't make the stupid mistakes they rely on to snowball the game. I also had a very high win-rate on both of those champions because I understood how to beat them and would avoid making those mistakes myself.

TLDR - Darius is fine PEBKAC (or L2Play).

ZebeknOct 14, 20152 votes

Its standard riot philosophy. Darius certainly isn't the first example of this. Take lee sin for example. It is his absurd mobility that makes him too strong. Riot nerfs anything but his mobility. same for vayne too. oh man! they took away THREE attack damage from her base! this will change precisely nothing. 3 attack damage is one level. it equates to something like one tenth of a percent of her damage lategame and honestly, we all know its not really going to affect her early that much. Main problems with vayne are the level 6 powerspike she gets, and the fact that her kit has more utility than any other adc.

SymbolicFearOct 14, 20151 votes

Actually, what makes Vayne so strong is that her E has the same stun duration at all levels. If they just made her E duration scale, she would be balanced rather well. Plus, her base damage could be 5 and it wouldn't change all that much considering all her damage comes from Silver Bolts and BotRK...

khorneyOct 14, 20151 votes

No what makes her strong is her aa range no no no we can't lower it

SymbolicFearOct 15, 20151 votes

Her AA range is the lowest among the marksmen.

khorneyOct 15, 20151 votes

550 umm no. That's the average among marksman. Quinns is 525 how is that fair

TrebbiOct 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

and the fact that her kit has more utility than any other adc.

She doesn't have utility.

She has no waveclear She has no extra structure dmg She has no skillshot or Zoning tools other than her presence.

Vayne doesnt really have utility... But she really is a big lump of steroids who can selfpeel.

Passive: Movement speed steroid Q steroid + selfpeel W Steroid E Selfpeel R Steroid + selfpeel

ZebeknOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She doesn't have utility.

She has no waveclear She has no extra structure dmg She has no skillshot or Zoning tools other than her presence.

Vayne doesnt really have utility... But she really is a big lump of steroids who can selfpeel.

Passive: Movement speed steroid Q steroid + selfpeel W Steroid E Selfpeel R Steroid + selfpeel

she doesn't have utility. Proceeds to list all of her utility in her kit. Movement steroids and self peel are utility. I honestly hope that this was a troll post because if you are serious then I just don't even know where to begin explaining how flawed and wrong you are.

khorneyOct 14, 20151 votes

Lol ikr she is one of the few adcs who can proc tri force. Have you seen Vayne with triforce good luck living. Everytime she tumbles she procs it

TrebbiOct 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

she doesn't have utility. Proceeds to list all of her utility in her kit. Movement steroids and self peel are utility. I honestly hope that this was a troll post because if you are serious then I just don't even know where to begin explaining how flawed and wrong you are.

lol vayne doesnt have more utility than Ashe, Varus and Kalista. and you said Vayne had the most utility of any ADC.

Vayne is a selfish adc and can atmost stun or knock people away from her team.

She doesnt shred armor She cant waveclear She cant heal or shield her teammates. She cant grant vision like ashe or kalista

Vayne can rightclick and kill people.

Utility is helping others in some way to deal more damage or to set up fights or gain vision control.

Ashe is a utility ADC who can slow and initiate fights with stun arrow and use hawke shots for vision.

Vayne is 90% set to just kill people with her steroids, she brings killing power, not utility.

ZebeknOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

lol vayne doesnt have more utility than Ashe, Varus and Kalista. and you said Vayne had the most utility of any ADC.

Vayne is a selfish adc and can atmost stun or knock people away from her team.

She doesnt shred armor She cant waveclear She cant heal or shield her teammates. She cant grant vision like ashe or kalista

Utility is helping others in some way to deal more damage or to set up fights or gain vision control.

Ashe is a utility ADC who can slow and initiate fights with stun arrow and use hawke shots for vision.

Vayne is 90% set to just kill people with her steroids, she brings killing power, not utility.

Ashe has a stun so she has utility. Vayne has a stun on a lower cooldown. Ashe has hawkshot. Vayne can go invisible. For every utility ashe has, vayne has a better one.

TrebbiOct 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Ashe has a stun so she has utility. Vayne has a stun on a lower cooldown. Ashe has hawkshot. Vayne can go invisible. For every utility ashe has, vayne has a better one.

The word your looking for is KIT not utility.

Vayne has a good kit for being an ADC and to fulfill her role, but she doesn't bring much utility to the team..

But if you insist....

LADIES AND GENTLEMAN LETS PRESENT THE UTILITY AWARD FOR MOST UTILITY TO Vayne

Sorry Blitzcrank Nami TahmKench Thresh Ashe But vayne has much more utility than you guys because she has a kit aswell, appearently.

On second place on the utility podium we have Riven only beating Tryndamere in the utility department because he doesn't have a stun.

ZebeknOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The word your looking for is KIT not utility.

Vayne has a good kit for being an ADC and to fulfill her role, but she doesn't bring much utility to the team..

But if you insist....

LADIES AND GENTLEMAN LETS PRESENT THE UTILITY AWARD FOR MOST UTILITY TO

Sorry But vayne has much more utility than you guys because she has a kit aswell, appearently.

On second place on the utility podium we have

Do you know the meaning of the word utility? it would seem not. let me explain it for you. you gave the example of ashe. Ashes ultimate ECA has basically one use and thats all it does. Vaynes condemn has many uses which gives it much more utility than ECA. Tumble is the same way. you can use it to run, chase, or reposition. by comparison volley has one use, maybe 2 i guess. Also, her ultimate gives tumble invisibility which would make for yet another use for it. bringing the total number of possible ways to use the ability (in other words utility) to four. whereas ECA only does one thing.

Utility knife: can be used in many many ways. Utility belt: can be used in many many ways. Utility: The ability to use something in many different ways.

Another example (and i'll keep it simple for you) is the difference in UTILITY of the summoner spells HEAL and FLASH or IGNITE and FLASH. Heal and ignite really only have one use. Flash has many. Therefore, Flash has more Utility. Logic is hard.

TrebbiOct 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Do you know the meaning of the word utility? it would seem not. let me explain it for you. you gave the example of ashe. Ashes ultimate ECA has basically one use and thats all it does. Vaynes condemn has many uses which gives it much more utility than ECA. Tumble is the same way. you can use it to run, chase, or reposition. by comparison volley has one use, maybe 2 i guess. Also, her ultimate gives tumble invisibility which would make for yet another use for it. bringing the total number of possible ways to use the ability (in other words utility) to four. whereas ECA only does one thing.

Its pretty evident that you don't know what utility is in the context of a game.

Search up "utility champions". 90% if carries are mentioned will be Ashe, Varus, Kalista or Sivir because those champs have abilities that help the team and are less selfish and bring utility to the team.

http://www.reignofgaming.net/forums/league-of-legends/general-discussions/72773-champions-with-the-most-utility-in-each-role

she is not a UTILITY CHAMPION.

ZebeknOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Its pretty evident that you don't know what utility is in the context of a game.

Search up "utility champions". 90% if carries are mentioned will be Ashe, Varus, Kalista or Sivir because those champs have abilities that help the team and are less selfish and bring utility to the team.

http://www.reignofgaming.net/forums/league-of-legends/general-discussions/72773-champions-with-the-most-utility-in-each-role

she is not a UTILITY CHAMPION.

Yep she sure isn't. and yet she has more than champions that are considered to be utility champions. Whatever i'm not discussing this with you any further. I have already completely destroyed all of your arguements and all you can do is link websites. have a good day now.

TrebbiOct 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yep she sure isn't. and yet she has more than champions that are considered to be utility champions. Whatever i'm not discussing this with you any further. I have already completely destroyed all of your arguements and all you can do is link websites. have a good day now.

Whatever helps you sleep at night ;)

Red RyuOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do you know the meaning of the word utility? it would seem not. let me explain it for you. you gave the example of ashe. Ashes ultimate ECA has basically one use and thats all it does. Vaynes condemn has many uses which gives it much more utility than ECA. Tumble is the same way. you can use it to run, chase, or reposition. by comparison volley has one use, maybe 2 i guess. Also, her ultimate gives tumble invisibility which would make for yet another use for it. bringing the total number of possible ways to use the ability (in other words utility) to four. whereas ECA only does one thing.

Utility knife: can be used in many many ways. Utility belt: can be used in many many ways. Utility: The ability to use something in many different ways.

Another example (and i'll keep it simple for you) is the difference in UTILITY of the summoner spells HEAL and FLASH or IGNITE and FLASH. Heal and ignite really only have one use. Flash has many. Therefore, Flash has more Utility. Logic is hard.

Uhh, most utility situations ECA can be used for so can condemn be used for.

And then some.

I mean an AoE Slow that stuns one target for up to 3.5 seconds and is global, that is a lot of power. You are comparing it to a knockback that is a stun if there is a wall.

Vayne is strong we get it, but please do not pretend her condemn is better than ECA. That ult is one of the best in the game.

ZebeknOct 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Ryu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ovbm2rtG,comment-id=00000001000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2015-10-14T17:43:47.897+0000)

Uhh, most utility situations ECA can be used for so can condemn be used for.

And then some.

I mean an AoE Slow that stuns one target for up to 3.5 seconds and is global, that is a lot of power. You are comparing it to a knockback that is a stun if there is a wall.

Vayne is strong we get it, but please do not pretend her condemn is better than ECA. That ult is one of the best in the game.

sorry but nope, this is just plain wrong. first of all, we are NOT discussing power level, we are discussing UTILITY.

ECA uses: to stun someone for up to five seconds and deal them damage, while slowing targets near whoever is hit. this is its ONE and ONLY use.

Condemn uses (off the top of my head): 1. pushing an enemy towards your team. 2. pushing an enemy away from your team. 3. Pushing an enemy away from yourself to save your life. 4. Stunning an enemy champion.

four is a larger number than 1, and since the very definition of the word utility in ANY context is "having many or more than one use" your "arguement" is invalid.

Red RyuOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

sorry but nope, this is just plain wrong. first of all, we are NOT discussing power level, we are discussing UTILITY.

ECA uses: to stun someone for up to five seconds and deal them damage, while slowing targets near whoever is hit. this is its ONE and ONLY use.

Condemn uses (off the top of my head): 1. pushing an enemy towards your team. 2. pushing an enemy away from your team. 3. Pushing an enemy away from yourself to save your life. 4. Stunning an enemy champion.

four is a larger number than 1, and since the very definition of the word utility in ANY context is "having many or more than one use" your "arguement" is invalid.

Many of the things you just said apply to ECA, it makes it easier to catch them, easier to run from them and saving and has a far stronger stun with a slow while being global.

Sorry but your "argument" is invalid.

Every single thing condemn does ECA does and then some except the pushing people into your own team which can be an incredibly bad thing.

ECA wins in utility and power.

It's far stronger than condemn, the only time condemn is even in the ball park is if she ca reliably stun with it, which she can't.

ZebeknOct 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Ryu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ovbm2rtG,comment-id=0000000100000001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-14T18:37:58.838+0000)

Many of the things you just said apply to ECA, it makes it easier to catch them, easier to run from them and saving and has a far stronger stun with a slow while being global.

Sorry but your "argument" is invalid.

Every single thing condemn does ECA does and then some except the pushing people into your own team which can be an incredibly bad thing.

ECA wins in utility and power.

It's far stronger than condemn, the only time condemn is even in the ball park is if she ca reliably stun with it, which she can't.

Yep u are right, ashe is the dominant ADC in the current meta and is picked or banned in 52% of games currently, oh wait no thats vayne. keep defending your main, eventually they will nerf it and you will have to try to find another op pile of crap to play.

Red RyuOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yep u are right, ashe is the dominant ADC in the current meta and is picked or banned in 52% of games currently, oh wait no thats vayne. keep defending your main, eventually they will nerf it and you will have to try to find another op pile of crap to play.

I don't even play vayne lol.

And this has nothing to do with condemn vs ECA.

Vayne is too strong, we get it, just don't even pretend condemn is on the same level of utility as Ashe.

ZebeknOct 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Ryu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ovbm2rtG,comment-id=000000010000000100000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-14T19:11:57.719+0000)

I don't even play vayne lol.

And this has nothing to do with condemn vs ECA.

Vayne is too strong, we get it, just don't even pretend condemn is on the same level of utility as Ashe.

I don't pretend its on the same level, vayne as a champion has MANY more tools and MUCH more utility than ashe does, as well as higher damage and safer laning. Vayne is superior to ashe in every way except one. Range.

SymbolicFearOct 15, 20151 votes

Precisely.

Meme OrgyOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Its standard riot philosophy. Darius certainly isn't the first example of this. Take lee sin for example. It is his absurd mobility that makes him too strong. Riot nerfs anything but his mobility. same for vayne too. oh man! they took away THREE attack damage from her base! this will change precisely nothing. 3 attack damage is one level. it equates to something like one tenth of a percent of her damage lategame and honestly, we all know its not really going to affect her early that much. Main problems with vayne are the level 6 powerspike she gets, and the fact that her kit has more utility than any other adc.

That's what those champs are meant to be. LS is supposed to be super mobile, so they need his other stuff so he's weaker, but super mobile in return

GreenLoreOct 14, 20152 votes

Generally Riot tries to give the champs clear strenghts and weaknesses. If their strenght is too big,they probably won't nerf the strenght,but simply add to the weaknesses.

Colgate GatorOct 14, 20152 votes

You need to work on your wording, as the way you open this thread you come out as the typical Silver player who thinks they know more about the game than Riot themselves.

SymbolicFearOct 15, 20151 votes

Actually, I appreciate you saying something, cause I can see that. I definitely don't know more then them, its their game. However, they MUST know that this champion has too much: insanely high sustain, pull & slow, deleting ult that resets every kill, bleeding passive that gives him HUGE amounts of AD; these things need to be tuned down to make his power level as a champion fit others within his role. 90% pick ban since patch 5.16 is evidence he is too strong still.

GigahappytownOct 14, 20152 votes

Darius heal isn't and never was the problem its that his passive makes him either useless or god mode during late game literally everything in his kit is designed to help him proc his passive.

OxBakerOct 14, 20152 votes

I honestly think he'll need both nerfs for me to even consider removing him from my ban list.

Red RyuOct 14, 20151 votes

Worlds is going on, don't expect huge changes.

Chill.

GreenLoreOct 14, 20151 votes

worlds plays with version 5.18,so its not like any of these changes will affect worlds.

Red RyuOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

worlds plays with version 5.18,so its not like any of these changes will affect worlds.

Doesn't matter, Riot isn't doing huge changes til worlds ends.

GreenLoreOct 14, 20151 votes

They didn't do much changes now because they are actually focusing on the pre-season changes. The fact that worlds happens at the same time is only fitting for that,since it means that the game that you can play won't be much different from the one you see during worlds.

SquidsmastahOct 14, 20151 votes

I play Darius and his heal doesn't heal that much...

EDIT: I forgot to mention his heal was nerfed, because you used to be able to heal off of minions, giving Darius ridiculous sustain.

SymbolicFearOct 15, 20151 votes

No offense, but I when someone plays a champ, then says he is balanced yet has a 90% pick ban ratio, I don't really believe them.

WarlockLawOct 14, 20151 votes

They did nerf the heal, it is now harder to hit thanks to a reduction in the width of the area of his heal, the max range of his q is still the same.

SymbolicFearOct 15, 20151 votes

The high % heal needs to be toned down considerably. They should revert the changes from last patch and nerf his heal, that is the only thing that makes Darius so oppressive and one of the highest pick ban champs in the game.

RalanrOct 14, 20151 votes

I'm sorry, I'm just looking at this utility argument in the comments...

Is utility not about how well it can help your teammates?

Vayne is used so much in soloQ because she doesn't really need to rely on anyone when it comes to killing champions. That's great for getting kills, but not always for breaking the towers and blowing up the nexus. You know, the way you win the game.

She doesn't encourage much teamwork in my opinion. I find that unhealthy. Then again I main Pantheon, so I can't talk about encouraging teamwork.

StoningtonOct 15, 20151 votes

Nah, I think these are the perfect nerfs. They already nerfed his heal. Now it's easier to avoid his Q and the slow was obnoxiously high. 50 range off of his q is close to a 20% reduction in range.

SymbolicFearOct 15, 20151 votes

Yeah, 50 range isn't so bad. They hotfixed it after originally only reducing it by 20.