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LeBlanc Nerf on PBE: Opinions?

kcStranger··1 votes·1,715 views

For reference, here's the nerf currently being tested on the PBE:

Mimic (R) Mimicked Sigil of Malice AP ratio lowered to .6 from .65 Mimicked Distortion AP Ratio lowered to .9 from .975 Mimicked Ethereal Chains AP ratio lowered to .6 from .65

Personally, I think that although it is far from obvious that this is the perfect balance change, I really like the approach that Riot is taking here. I do think LeBlanc is a bit OP and needs a bit of a nerf, and targeting the ult seems like the perfect way to do it. It's a fairly conservative nerf, and I think that recent experience shows that "OP" champions often aren't OP by as much as it might seem, and it's important to be somewhat gentle with the nerf bat to avoid dumpstering them (see Syndra, Azir, Kassadin). Much better in my opinion to nerf too little--and need to nerf more--than too nerf too much and make a champion unplayable (even if temporarily).

What do you think? Is this nerf a good starting point?

35 Comments

Dreadlocks3 votes

I like Leblanc, she's a lot of fun. The problem is she has very little counter play. She has Burst, Mobility, Short cool downs. ETC. I voted "definitely too little" I strongly feel they need to make the CD on her ulti longer. For the same reason as Katarina's ulti got a longer CD. It shouldn't be used as a "bursty harrass" it should be used to finish off a target. To further my point. Leblanc can QRW a target with 100% with intentions of just doing a lot of damage setting her up for a very easy kill once her R cooldown is back up.

kcStranger2 votes

I didn't want to take the space to say this in the main post, but I agree that the current cooldown on LeBlanc's ult (40/32/24) seems rather short. With, say, 30% CDR, the cooldown on a level-16 ult is just 16.8 s, well within the range where you can fire it off multiple times in a somewhat extended teamfight. That seems a little much to me. That said, I'm definitely wary about nerfing too much all at once. I'd be fine with bumping the ult cooldown to 50/40/30 on top of the current nerfs, but any more than that and I start to get concerned.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Hey man even "RedMercy" agrees the CD is too low. "assuming u know who redmercy is" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcDrTRWVEFk

kcStranger1 votes

Haha I watched that video very recently. As I recall, one of his 3 (I think?) cons for LeBlanc is "She WILL be nerfed."

Dreadlocks1 votes

lol yeah and there was only 2, 99% chance getting nerfed weak AA's. Those wer his reasons neways. lol

Doogmi3 votes

I don't think so, her ratios aren't overbearing. She's only considered strong because she can do well in lane swaps, and Brings plenty of cc which many pro teams are favoring right now. Before the mana changes you never even saw lissandra, in fact while ori, ziggs, and syndra were running mid lane there were several threads on how underpowered liss was and how terrible her passive Is. Literally all that changed was the meta and all of the sudden liss op? She is fine, been functioning as intended for awhile now.

Curling Veigar2 votes

She's fine as is. Idk why they're touching her.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Cz she has seen too much LCS plays. Someone else deserves to take away her LCS spotlight one day.

And also, can't stand hearing announcers going all:

LeBlanc used QR on one target, killing off 80% HP

Announcers: OMG WHAT A PLAY!!!!

Curling Veigar1 votes

{quoted}

Cz she has seen too much LCS plays. Someone else deserves to take away her LCS spotlight one day.

And also, can't stand hearing announcers going all:

LeBlanc used QR on one target, killing off 80% HP

Announcers: OMG WHAT A PLAY!!!!

Urgot could be played in LCS, doesn't mean he deserves to be nerfed.

LCS doesn't warrent nerfs for a champ.

aciddemons2 votes

The nerf is kind of minor so I don't have a problem with it but if they start nerfing her further that's something I'm not going to be happy with.

kcStranger2 votes

I definitely agree with your sentiment. I think the danger of balancing around "this champion is constantly picked/banned in the LCS" is that although LCS play is usually a pretty good indicator of what champions are the strongest, it's not a particularly good indicator of how much they are the strongest by. We know from the LCS that the strongest mid-lane assassins are LeBlanc, Ahri, Zed (maybe some others, not an exhaustive list), but it's entirely possible that, say, Talon is almost as good and would suddenly become dominant if we threw even relatively minor nerfs at the ones that currently dominate.

aciddemons1 votes

{quoted}

I definitely agree with your sentiment. I think the danger of balancing around "this champion is constantly picked/banned in the LCS" is that although LCS play is usually a pretty good indicator of what champions are the strongest, it's not a particularly good indicator of how much they are the strongest by. We know from the LCS that the strongest mid-lane assassins are LeBlanc, Ahri, Zed (maybe some others, not an exhaustive list), but it's entirely possible that, say, Talon is almost as good and would suddenly become dominant if we threw even relatively minor nerfs at the ones that currently dominate.

I understand where you're coming from and as far as Talon goes, he is quite strong. I think he's just been underplayed since they took away the silence. My biggest issue with Riot's balancing system is that most of the time it seems as though they are balancing, I don't know how to phrase this properly. Like their balance system caters to the needs to pros rather than the normal players.

kcStranger1 votes

I feel you. Balancing for the pros is simply much more volatile than balancing for normal players (because little changes have larger impacts). Also you have different goals: For pros you actually kind of want to have cyclical changes in champion strengths so that the LCS stays fresh. However, too large of changes are really off-putting for casual players.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Like their balance system caters to the needs to pros rather than the normal players.

I think they thumb nailed a post about balancing: "before you complain about balance" or w.e They legit say they DO balance around the pros. not normals, because they can see a champions true potential from a pro better than a newb basically lol.

aciddemons1 votes

{quoted}

I think they thumb nailed a post about balancing: "before you complain about balance" or w.e They legit say they DO balance around the pros. not normals, because they can see a champions true potential from a pro better than a newb basically lol.

Yeah, but a pro is 1%. The only reason league is so huge is because of the other 99%. If the 99% leaves, Riot has nothing.

Dreadlocks1 votes

I know what you're saying, but I guess the point they are trying to make is, Balancing a champion is easier if they can see its full potential.

maybe a bad example but say 2 ppl were to drive the same car 1 being a professional racecar driver another being a normal citizen. Say they did laps and the pro racecar driver got a really good time, while the normal driver did poor. Is it the car that needs to be upgraded? or does the driver just need more practice?... like i said prob a bad example. but i think u get the idea.

aciddemons1 votes

Yeah, I do. The thing is though, most people I know who play League do it as more a casual thing so it just doesn't make sense to me. Like you're basing your decisions off what the 1% can do as opposed to the 99%, because of whom your game is so successful as well.

Get what I mean?

Dreadlocks1 votes

yeah but dont you think balancing champions would be even harder if they didnt have a solid "guideline" What would they balance around? if they balanced around the majority of gamers (bronze elo) then the balance for everyone of higher elo would be a mess.

kcStranger1 votes

I agree with what you're saying. My only concern is that balancing around pros gives you a good idea of who needs buffed/nerfed, but not a good example of how much they need buffed/nerfed by. In your racing example, for instance, imagine you had four cars. Three of them were like the fourth in every way, except that one accelerated faster, one had better top speed, and one handled better. In other words, the fourth car is "strictly worse" than (has no upside over) the other three. So, no pro racer would ever want it. However, I've said nothing about how much better the other cars are. So it's possible that if you made the three cars 1% worse, suddenly the only car anyone would want to drive is the first one.

At the pro level, people will play whatever is best simply because it's best, and it's almost impossible to judge the strength of the things that pros aren't playing. At lower levels, however, people will generally play everything enough for you to get some (imperfect) idea. So in my opinion, it's OK to balance based on pro play, but you have to be very conservative. Just because a champion has an 80% pick/ban rate doesn't mean they're actually insanely better than everyone else; it just means that they're generally better (by an unknown amount).

aciddemons1 votes

{quoted}

yeah but dont you think balancing champions would be even harder if they didnt have a solid "guideline" What would they balance around? if they balanced around the majority of gamers (bronze elo) then the balance for everyone of higher elo would be a mess.

Go diamond and platinum if need be or get players to give them more feedback on the champions.

kcStranger2 votes

Good point. I agree, it's not worth even attempting to balance around bronze/silver, and possibly gold also. I think there are useful things to be learned from platinum/diamond win rates, though (though it's important not to over-interpret these).

Chespin20132 votes

she needs her mobility nerfed her damage i guess is fine but with that much mobility just makes her way too much of a safe pick

VeryZealous1 votes

My sentiment too. just undue the previous buff or make it even more severe. Messing with numbers never seems to end well with riot item 3070

Athenes Lulu2 votes

That's basically a 25 damage difference when she has around 500 AP. Might as well consider that a "clarity" nerf.

Stonington2 votes

All she can really do is bully a lane, she's complete shit in an anti-siege situation. And it's easy to get her into that sort of spot. You have to snowball with her or you're at a disadvantage. There's really no reason to nerf her right now.

Zazusha1 votes

not strong enough. She needs to pay for her mobility.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

I actually prefer making her Q & Q-ult not proccing the additional damage to each other, but I guess the number decrease is a good start too

Cindikle1 votes

It's a start in the right direction.

The real change that needs to happen is the procing of her Q needs to do less damage at lower ranks. At rank 1 it deals 110 damage if you proc it. And even if you don't, it costs only 50 mana.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I, personally, believe her early game damage could be cut back a bit. The usual mage/assassin has around 500-ish health (If you include the Doran ring on Mages). A LeBlanc with full Masteries can do around 100 damage with a level 1 W. So taking in the previous statement, she does around 1/5 of your health from a level 1 ability.

Didn't Syndra get nerfed for something like that?

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

It woudl be fun if le blanc got another passive. A passive invis with a clone, 2 blinks, generally zonyha and flash... damn, that is splipery.

VeryZealous1 votes

So obviously I play alot of leblanc Leblanc and like the champion alot. I think what has recently happened to Ahri Ahri

is what is happening with leblanc.

Alot of you probably remember the silence removal and the overall unpopularity of leblanc after the said nerf. I have played her before and then and have stuck with her for awhile now and will still play her after these nerfs. I believe it was patch 4.20 but they basically buffed leblancs distortion return timer. Raising it from 3 to 4 seconds. Which in a game where 3 second cc is considered godlike and the ultimate move of most champions really obnoxious. Leblanc was basically in a state where she could get 'cced' AND still ESCAPE. this is rather dumb and lacking in counterplay. since no ones cc really extends over 4 second. I used to consider annie a major counter of mine but now if i distortion in and get tibbers I can still most likely immediately distortion back after the cc ends. In fact my low cooldown passive means I get a vayne period of invisibilty and immediately blink back. Leblanc is at a point where she can do alot more risky plays without being countered by cc. This timer on her distortion and the relative low cooldown of her passive are the main problems with leblanc from a balance point of view.

Now taking my example from Ahri We all remember the time before she had a movement buff on her q. Ahri was in a fine state but wasnt the highly contested midlaner she is today. Riot's balanced team then immediately decided to keep the new part of her kit but nerf her with both range and mana costs in patch 5.3 Ahri suddenly got this new mobility mechanic that made her extremely safe and let her dominate or survive bad minlane matchups and riot forced it on her and made the rest of her alot worse. Ahri as a whole basicaly got elised. Her kit got a bit more overloaded so riot instead of just reversing it messed her numbers up. a really roundabout bad way fo dealing with the obvious problem.

Leblancs problem in my eyes will never be fixed by a damage nerf. Thats just attacking the wrong problem in her kit. She has a 47% winrate in soloq and 44% right now in competitive. (http://www.goldper10.com/article/1035-power-picks-february-2015.html/) (http://www.lolking.net/champions/leblanc#statistics)

Nerfing her damage doesnt negate why shes good right now as opposed to the period where midlaners like bjergsen considered her bad after the silence nerf. She got a mobility boost. Its that simply. If anything In a perfect world where Riot asked me to balance leblanc, I would simply undo the 4 second buff on her distortion. By focusing on her damage she will be in a state like elise is. A worthless champion who cant win a game or who just got balanced poorly, which i think we can all agree is pretty shitty. Focus needs to be on both increasing her passive cooldown and decreasing the cooldown on the blink back of distortion. She will return to the exact same state she was before and have the exact same kit. Which was considered universally bad at the time. Honestly Its an easy fix I just dont understand why riot isnt doing it. Obviously I am biased because I love playing her, I play her top, mid support and even jungle, but number nerfs are riots way of trying to cram mobility into this game alot like with the recent introduction of kalista or when yasuo came out. It just creates problems you can see the clear answer too.

TL;DR Return Distortion to a 3 second jump timer or possibly lower like 2.5 to make her actually have to RISK something to go in. Increase Passive cooldown since it makes her at a high level unkillable with the 4 second blink back. Messing with her numbers and damage will just make her elise. A highly awesome kit thats basically useless like your currently doing to kassadin and how you seem to feel about Ahri.

These are the ways to most optimally balance her in my opinion. give her risk. its simple. Riot is just avoiding that by messing with numbers.

Lil Soybean1 votes

I think the problem is that her standard 'harass' in lane is a combo that can chunk you for ~50% of your health. She retains safety while using it and puts herself in very little danger, due to the recall effect on distortion. It's as if playing against an assassin blitzcrank; her very existence zones you back from the creeps, because if you accidentally step in W range - whoops, a huge chunk of your health is gone.

I'd say re-route a significant portion of her damage into her chain. It's far too easy for Leblancs to miss their chain and still deal ludicrous amounts of damage. This major power-shift would also mean that you're suffering for maxing W to reduce its cooldown, since the chain would scale with damage better.

Her damage would be the same overall, but she'd actually need to land her skillshot now, and she might have to deter a few points from Distortion into the chain instead - meaning she'd have a slightly longer distortion cooldown in general.

VeryZealous1 votes

I actually like this alot. The q w harass is so easy to land. If i had to land my chains everytime it would change alot.

ImHerVoice1 votes

Her ratios already suck espically for an assassin lol. Compared to shit like zed...? yeah. She's got katarina tier ratios right now because of the prior nerfs in other seasons.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

Too much uncounterable mobility burst.

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