Can a Rioter tell us in detail why you think Lee sin is balance in the state he is in?

LegendmakerGX··5 votes·694 views

Of all the jungler that ticks me off is Lee sin he seem like he does everything from high mobility to high damage with high sustain.Riot has nerf his ult cool down and damage but what I don't understand is why do they think his ult was the main reason he was busted to have over a 35% play rate? He is just a overloaded champion to the core jungler with the only ones going near his overloaded kit is Elis or Nid but they had their jungle item nerf in the past and they have one thing that lee sin doesn't which is mana cost and no build in shield/life steal .

If you look at Lee sin ability you can see in ever single one of them there is a 2nd effect added on with it,

Q first dmg from afar then a another boost of damage when he press it again with mobility lets not forget how much damage that thing does. Safeguard allows him to dash to a team or use it as a escape to a ward while giving either him or his ally a shield (50% cool down reduction if on a ally) if he press it again he gets bonus lifesteal and spell vamp. Tempest does damage and true sight while pressing again slow his enemy and finally his ult which does insane amount of damage not that alone but he stuns a person for 0.25 sec knock enemy back into his ally who also get knock up and take damage.

Not a single one of his ability is not overloaded at all it seem like every time he use a ability he always seem to have a extra layer added on to the enemy, people can say that "Lee sin falls off noob get skills" Why yes he actually does fall off but that's at the 30 minute mark which games rarely last that long any more because of Riot shuffling to either make the game last longer or shorter. In those 30 minute Lee sin has the most mobility/damage/tank then any jungle all in 1 with high success rate to gank because of his Q giving him a large range.

Right now he is hovering over the 47% win rate but that's because he has a play rate of over 35% which is extremely high so all I want to know is do you think he is balance and why was it his ult nerf? Damage is high but once he land the ult it is 85% insure kill because of R+Q or my favorite ward hop>flash>R into the enemy's arms

37 Comments

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

so lee is now an issue again ?

LegendmakerGX3 votes

He has always been a issue because riot love tapping him or not actually fixing the problem did you really think his ult was the problem that made him have a 35% play rate? His ult wasn't really the problem even though it did do high damage and was buff in the past for reasons I don't know why but they nerf his cool down and damage, cool down yes but damage did nothing because of the amount of damage he can follow up with it being the combo Flash behind the enemy line+R to kick Adc into your time+Q to go flying with him to safety after you flash into the enemy line. You can say team can CC lee but the reaction time gap to do that is extremely little.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

maybe he has a high play rate cuz people LIKE HIS FLASHy KIT

people like flashy things wanna make be "flashy plays"

champs who always seem to show or indicate a skill level by being good on X champ will be popular cuz every one is trying to prove how good they are

LegendmakerGX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OsBEB00p,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-04T01:06:58.076+0000)

maybe he has a high play rate cuz people LIKE HIS FLASHy KIT

people like flashy things wanna make be "flashy plays"

champs who always seem to show or indicate a skill level by being good on X champ will be popular cuz every one is trying to prove how good they are

Well there you go Flashy kit<< That practically means overloaded kit does it not? Ekko had a flashy kit Gnar which people wouldn't call flashy but combo kit was another word flashy kit because of hop>Btch slap into wall then hammer smash was flashy.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

so every one kits should be like NUNUs?

LegendmakerGX1 votes

Dear hell Sunshine not all kit should be like Nunu but all kits should not be overloaded so tell me which ability that lee has is not overloaded in your opinion and tell me why?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

a post the other day crying nunu is #1 win rate and its a bad thing...

this post crying over LEE SIN again who has one of the worst win rates as a jungle

this fuking community is so bipolar

lmao

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

LegendmakerGX2 votes

Sigh I don't like using the word noob but you seem like one of them if you ask me who is totally uninformed and never actually played with people who are skilled in the champion.

Nunu has a win rate of 56 at the moment but with 5% play rate Ivern had a 58-59% winrate with a staggering 15-20% play rate which cause him to get nerf you see the difference from first place jungler to lower win rate jungler? Not satisfied? okay then Skarnar is 2nd place jungler at this moment with 54% win rate but a pick rate of 0.93% does that mean he is strong, of course not only a small % of players can win their game with skarnar but those 0.93% play rate doesn't mean a lot because that is a TINY TINY group of players.

Lee sin has a play rate over 35% with a win rate of 47% that is actually a good win rate with over 35% of junglers playing him. Maybe be more informed before using the word bipolar.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

whatever you wanna say

how many games have you lost due to lee sin ?

not the whole team... just cuz lee sin was picked ?

Eedat1 votes

Probably because different people have different opinions?

a post the other day crying nunu is #1 win rate and its a bad thing...

That was my post

this post crying over LEE SIN again who has one of the worst win rates as a jungle

Fun fact: I didnt give a shit about Lee even before they nerfed him:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AE6fr4vr-the-amount-of-us-low-elo-players-that-complain-about-lee-sin-is-astounding

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/MplA9qYk-i-feel-like-im-the-only-person-who-doesnt-have-a-problem-with-lee-sin

Hmmmm weird how people can have different opinions on things. You on the other hand just try to play opposing views off as some sort of bullshit hive mind contradiction when in reality its different people with different opinions

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

well the thing is lee isnt OP broken or anything of the state... the OP was trying to make this a FACT not an OPINION

and i even said on YOUR POST that i made comments prior to nunu's current state of win% that he was a strong champ under the radar that no one carried about... when all the hate as was on Ivern

the OPs claim is cuz of lee's high pick rate and still having a 47% win rate he is still too strong

your claim is cuz of nunu's win rate being #1 he is to strong... however his pick rate is average... a lil high on average about 5-6%

oh just won a game as nunu jungle vs kha where his whole team invaded me at blue... almost got 1st blood on me and my support mistakenly stole blue while leashing

so back to the point... if a champ with a highpick/ban rate but bad win rate is op then how can is a champ with a strong win rate/ average pick rate/no ban rate be OP ?

i just dont undrestand how both exist ... such a paradox

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

just out of curiosity fellow community member do you think i should just agree with everything more?

Eedat1 votes

No, but you need to stop acting like the community is a some sort of collective entity as opposed to many individuals with differing opinions. Its one thing to address a popular opinion but its completely different than bouncing two people's views off each other like we're the same thing

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

i never said it was you who made a post about nunu...

you offered that information...

i made a comment on how this community cant decided which way is up or down

and the community is one ... we are all one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGCzepV_pdI

SFHFWill1 votes

No, Ekko had busted base values that made tank Ekko broken as hell.

His base AD was equal to Poppy's iirc and his base heal on ulti was stupid as hell. His W passive base % hp damage was something completely absurd that let him duel tanks without needing additional AP.

Hence the massive nerf in base values and huge buffs to AP scaling. Guess what? His winrate went to 50%. That shows it's not his kit, it's his values.

Lee Sin, can build full tank or full damage. Doesn't really matter which. Late game he basically a harass, vision control and pace setting champ.

LostFr0st1 votes

His ult cd and base ms was a problem. Many Lees would opt out of bad decisions by simply kicking enemies away or just walking out since it was hard to rival his base ms compared to other junglers.

Base ms affects clears, kiting, getting back out onto the map, making it to buffs in time for them spawning, pathing during a gank, and a lot more (everything basically.)

Those nerfs helped make bad lees worse, while making it so good Lees lose out on making a play for longer if they mess it up.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

lets not forget the buffs to tank junglers and how lee is bad vs them cuz he really cant kill tanks ...

LegendmakerGX3 votes

Why would lee even go on a tank that doesn't make sense no lee would be dumb enough to go on a tank unless he is going to ult him into his team mate which can kill a tank instantly 5v1.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

oh you wanna do the downvoting thing for having a discussion ?

hmm typical

MY POINT IS TANK JUNGLERS ZAC,NUNU,MAOKAI,SEJ ALL GOT STRONGER WITH THE RECENT PATCH WHICH WILL MAKE LEE SIN WIN RATE WORST... THEREFORE PEOPLE WILL SOON BE CRYING THAT TANKS ARE TO STRONG AND LEE NEEDS BUFFS CUZ HE CANT COMPETE IN THE JUNGLE WITH THE TANKS

LegendmakerGX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OsBEB00p,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-04T01:18:33.284+0000)

oh you wanna do the downvoting thing for having a discussion ?

hmm typical

MY POINT IS TANK JUNGLERS ZAC,NUNU,MAOKAI,SEJ ALL GOT STRONGER WITH THE RECENT PATCH WHICH WILL MAKE LEE SIN WIN RATE WORST... THEREFORE PEOPLE WILL SOON BE CRYING THAT TANKS ARE TO STRONG AND LEE NEEDS BUFFS CUZ HE CANT COMPETE IN THE JUNGLE WITH THE TANKS

Sigh Okay bud just to give you info all those jungler you mention has got a nerf except for maokai since no one even plays maokai in jungle these jungler are also really slow in movement speed with zac only being the one that can actually have mobility with sling. This might be a shock to you but Lee sin can actually beat a tank unless it's pass the 40 minute mark his ability damage plus life steal/shield helps him sustain in solo fight.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

im gonna leave you with this

junglers win rates

nunu 56.86% skarner 54.09% sej 53.78% rammus 53.48 warwick 53.13% jarvan 52.25% trundle 52.18% elise 52.13% zac 52% nid 51.62% ivern 51.55% kha 51.45% panth 51.04% jax 50.91% shy 50.86% eve 50.74% riven 50.42% wu 50.35% noc 50.23% rek 50.08% hec 49.94% vi 49.78% shaco 49.78% kindred 49.64% olaf 49.6% yi 49.47% fid 49.93% ren 49.21% gragas 49.15% twitch 49.15% amumu 48.34% xin 48.06% and for 33rd win rate of all junglers out of 35 listed LeeSin for 47.40% rumble 46.43% graves 46.29%

yes you are right lee has a problem

HE NEEDS BUFFS

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

LegendmakerGX3 votes

Just stop making yourself look dumb bro you left out his Play rate for a reason you should learn how win rate % changes by the amount of Play rate % the champion have.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

even with his play rate he is weak right now..

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

Lee Sin Jungle has a win rate 47.34% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Lee Sin's are earning a win rate of 52.34% with the average rank of these top players being in Masters.

LoLalytics ranks Lee Sin at 43 amongst Jungle champions earning a tier grade of Silver.

This ranking takes into account the win rate of Platinum+ players, the pick/ban influence of Lee Sin, the win rate and average rank of the best Lee Sin players.

http://lolalytics.com/champion/LeeSin/

LegendmakerGX2 votes

Like I SAID his Play rate factor into his WIN RATE not ever single person is going to be a god tier Lee sin a person can be silver skilled with lee sin and play him in platinum tier factoring into his win rate. That is why his win rate is low because over 37% OF JUNGLERS PLAY HIM. I don't get how to make it more clearer and if you look on the side of this website you want to use some of the masters has over 55% win rate with over 60 games.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

so you are arguing with advance analytics based on #s and math

its not my math or my stats...

SFHFWill1 votes

Look at his winrate in challenger. Although few people ever reach that tier, his winrate is actually really busted. That's why Rito won't nerf his damage and they avoid touching him.

If they lowered his damage, he'd be 100% worthless below Diamond. His win rate would change very slightly above that. Since early game his damage is an issue. Late game it's decision making and mechanics. Knowing how to InSec an ADC into the right position has nothing to do with his damage. A full tank Lee Sin can do that just as easily as glass cannon and can win his team the game from that one great play.

You'll never see that in my ELO (silver). However, I can watch someone l like GripX build full tank ripping apart a team by juking them to death.

Lee Sin's skill cap is so high that very, VERY few people can actually use him.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

so he is only an issue at the higher skill brackets?

so the other 90% of use shouldnt worry about him ?

SFHFWill1 votes

I'm saying that something is wrong with the champ. Any champ that can only be used to it's fullest by less than 2% of the game is problem. Nerfing his damage will only make the problem worse. The lower 98% of players will be worse off and will probably make his play rate plummet, while the other 2% have slightly slower clears and fewer ganks pre 6, maybe by 1 or 2 less ganks. Other than that....it wouldn't change him much for mid or late game.

SFHFWill1 votes

His winrate sucks b/c so many low ELO players play him and completely fail at him. If you look at D5 and above, his winrate spikes hard as hell. It continues to rise into challenger. At that point he's closer to a 54% WR.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

Maokai Jungle has a win rate 53.11% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Maokai's are earning a win rate of 56.77% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond III.

LoLalytics ranks Maokai at 10 amongst Jungle champions earning a tier grade of Diamond.

This ranking takes into account the win rate of Platinum+ players, the pick/ban influence of Maokai, the win rate and average rank of the best Maokai players.

http://lolalytics.com/champion/Maokai/Jungle/

LostFr0st1 votes

No. Contrary to popular belief, Lee is fine into tanks. The modification to his ult where the AoE damage of your ult is affected by how heavy the person you kick is largely removed that shortcoming. Sure he can't kill them himself, but he doesn't need to pull of an insec to win if it's not safe to get in there anymore. He'll just kick their Sion into their carries and get it done that way.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

he isnt gonna to have the damage to kill a tank, wont be as useful as a tank with their cc and will be better in teamfights

lee sin is early game early gank snowball jungler

if he dont get ahead or snowball a lane his win rate drops like a rock

tanks dont have to do this in order to be useful

LostFr0st2 votes

he isnt gonna to have the damage to kill a tank, wont be as useful as a tank with their cc and will be better in teamfights

Sure, but he's also not useless either. A Lee with experience knows the limits into tanks. People that play him for giggles don't, so yeah he's not a tank and shouldn't be expected to fill that gap.

lee sin is early game early gank snowball jungler

if he dont get ahead or snowball a lane his win rate drops like a rock

Which is why the ult cd nerfs and base ms were some of the best nerfs they could have given him to tone him down while not overly nerfing good Lees.

tanks dont have to do this in order to be useful

No, but they also can't just waltz in and kill enemies either. They can't get force-fed and just control the entire pace of the game. They're stuck relying on their team to step up and help them. Being useful is not the same as controlling the tide of the game. There is always an earlygame for Lee, not always is there a mid and late game for tanks.

Weathered1 votes

They can, but they won't. Even if Lee Sin was the most balanced champion ever in the history of LoL, an extended response from a Rioter would be nitpicked and isolated for far too much criticism (even if the criticism wasn't warranted or valid). Anything they say is used against them and the company by players and board members, and as a result they very rarely like to give more than small responses or updates.

Meep Man1 votes

Lee has a high play rate not because he is OP, but because he is fun. Those who have mastered him of course have a 55%+ win rate or higher because why else would you get good as a champion?

Yaśuo Main1 votes

He has a good winrate for his high playrate, which is below 50%. He is fine in the state he is in, only busted in really high elo.

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