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Does Riot plan on creating Supports with higher mastery curves?

Josh Sand··19 votes·3,218 views

Besides Thresh, the support role doesn't feel like its exactly packed with champions that have overloaded kits or high mastery curves. It's honestly hard not to get frustrated when I look at the trend of champion releases for the last 3 years.

We got Braum, Tahm Kench, and Bard. All champions with great identities, but without a deep mastery curve who ultimately only fulfill a niche purpose.

Then you have champions like Yasuo, Gnar, Azir, Kalista, Rek'Sai, Ekko, Kindred, and Camille - All champions with noticeably higher mastery curves that also suffer from overloaded kits that dominate the game. (which in turn, leads to constant nerfs). Why does this happen with literally every other role besides Support?

And I have to say, Ivern was probably the biggest (unintentional) slap in the face to Support mains. Riot had an opportunity to create a support champion with a loaded kit, but instead they decided to throw him into the jungle.

Why did the Jungle need a high skill cap support champion when we can't get the same for bot lane?

This role is getting more boring to play over time, as more "#bigplays" champs enter the scene while we get mechanically simple niche picks.

Does Riot plan on introducing mechanically intensive, high-skill cap support champs? Or is this the status quo of the role?

62 Comments

420 grams38 votes

I think bard is hard to master and has a high curve.

50000000000000002 votes

Bard's mechanical skill cap isn't very high, but that certainly doesn't mean his skill cap isn't high. Knowing when to roam and which chimes to collect is crucial.

Josh Sand2 votes

Yea there are different aspects to a champion's mastery curve.

It includes things like timing (Bard, Lulu, Janna, Taric, etc.)

And mechanical execution (Thresh)

Thresh requires mechanical precision on 3 of his abilities (Death Sentence, Flay, and Dark Passage), while Bard requires precision on just one of his abilities. The number of times per game that you are required to be mechanically precise with Thresh is by far and away more than the number of times you are required to be precise when playing Bard.

The relative impact is much higher with Tempered Fate but it takes less total play time to get the hang of than it does to master all of Thresh's abilities. Of course, this could vary from player to player, but that's been my experience so far.

Erractic Eick1 votes

I think his argument is less that Bard's kit makes him complicated, but more his necessity for map-wide awareness that makes him a difficult champion. You need to have the knowledge of when to roam, where to roam, how long you can be away, and so on and so forth. You spoke a great deal about mechanical skill, yes, but you neglected to speak much to the intricacies of timing and knowledge as skills, in my humble opinion.

Erractic Eick1 votes

Taric is pretty difficult, at times, too. Rapidly swapping who you are bonded to in order to lock down the right target, defend the right person, spread buffs the right way, timing your ultimate, utilizing the damage/cooldown of your passive without being caught out, and probably managing an active item or two can be very focus intensive.

SOLOQSUPERHERO1 votes

I def agree hes hard to play but i don't think it's a skill cap but more of a gate to justify the amount of power his kit has. A potential teamwide damage immunity requires it.

Erractic Eick1 votes

Sorry, I'm a bit confused, what's the difference between a champion with a high mastery curve (meaning a great deal to learn in exchange for a great deal of impact) and a champion that is hard to play in order to justify the potential power they have? Aren't they the same thing, essentially?

SOLOQSUPERHERO2 votes

Because the difficulty is built into is not just his own, it relies on his teammates cooperating and aiming too. I'm not saying he's easy by any means but if you ult and your team runs away from you, there's nothing you can really do about it aside from run after them, so he doesn't have all the control behind the things that gate his power.

You could argue this makes him more difficult, but I woudln't call it a skill cap because it ultimately isn't completely relient on the Taric player's skill alone.

Erractic Eick1 votes

Ah, okay. Makes sense.

Silent Pace1 votes

All they do is slap you and run around collecting chimes. You lose and you don't know what happened. :|

Big Lincoln13 votes

bard is a niche champion and has a much higher curve than thresh

OurLestrade9 votes

People always scream how complex and difficult Bard is, but honestly it's not in the same degree as the mechanics you see in other roles. He's the Singed of supports in my books which revolves around making the best out of what your kit provides, not the highly mechanically intensive fancy pants mid laner or whatever. Hell, if you look at it at face value all he really has is a couple of normal skillshots, a targeted heal and auto attacks.

I'll doubt we'll ever get a truly mechanically intensive support beyond Riot's "there's a 50% chance that what you do will actively help the enemy instead and everyone on your team will scream at you" fetish. The fact that support item are drifting more and more towards boring point and click heal/shield spam isn't promising.

Slythion4 votes

Bard Thresh Taric are probably the 3 hardest or at least highest mastery cap of the supports, but you're right...it's a pretty easy class of champions to play

edit: and taric isn't exactly the hardest champion ever...I was just struggling to find a 3rd to make this look nice :3

logic3011 votes

Not taric. I'm low elo (started lol in October) and I got an S by going 2-0-37 my second game with him lol

Axxuka5 votes

''Second game''

It's called luck... PErform 30 games+ then l'ets talk about it --'' (Win rates are irrelevant under 30 games because you're learning, that's even riot rules)....

Slythion2 votes

win rates are even further irrelevant because he admitted himself he's low elo...there's a reason no respectable statistic site calculates anything below plat in their total percentages

50000000000000001 votes

lolking cries in a corner

Slythion1 votes

:^)

logic3011 votes

I'm just saying how taric isn't hard

Are3 votes

Lulu has a pretty high skill ceiling.

IGotScuttleCrabs2 votes

Agreed. Not sure why she's being left out. Poly the enemy carry or boost yours Shield yours or damage theirs and allow for easier trick shot Qs to slow Ult a carry to save them from death, wait for zed to ult in to knock him off the carry, or you can even use it as an engage follow up (I've flashed in and ult'd myself to get a multi knockup several times).

Lulu has many options and all her abilities require decision making about "what is a better use for this button" as well as her kit offers several variations to use abilities if you get creative.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

That's the whole reason she's not included. Her kit isn't mechanically or strategically intensive, you just need good decision making skills.

Are1 votes

She's about mid on both. Double angle Q is tricky to master.

Her skill floor is decentish, sure, buff a carry or CC an enemy, but a great Lulu knows how to optimally use her skills.

It's the same as Alistar. The basic combo is easy enough to complete, but a good Alistar knows when to engage/disengage, and how to abuse his limits to the utmost performance.

Anags3 votes

There are plenty of supports with good mastery curves.

What doesn't exist is a designed support with really high mobility.

And in what world is I vern a high skill cap champ? He is very different but he isn't some crazy difficult champ.

Most supports have skill shots. I'm not sure what you consider mechanically difficult. And why do we want more overloaded kits?

How about just good kits that have a focus and not the ability to do everything?

Nidken3 votes

Champions like Taric and Bard are difficult to play to their fullest potential. Its just that nobody seems to really notice when this is happening.

Shirvallah1 votes

{quoted}

Champions like Taric and Bard are difficult to play to their fullest potential. Its just that nobody seems to really notice when this is happening.

Agreed.

Big Juice2 votes

Wait, rek'sai has a high mastery curve?

Hethalean2 votes

The problem is that it is hard to make an overloaded kit that functions well on low income, and not so well that people just take it to solo lanes.

coeurloyal8 votes

I agree, but I also think that as a Support it isn't your job to out-play your opponent on a mechanical level. As a support I think it's your job to be able to out-think and out-pressure the enemy jg/support duo. You can win the game for your team as a support, but you do it by being faster to the rotations, negating their ganking pressure, and creating windows for your mechanical out players. If you create a support that's both mechanically intensive and dependent on good map awareness, you're asking too much of a single player. If you want mechanical prowess, you're just looking at the wrong role.

Also, I think you're short-changing the mastery curves on a few supports, like Bard, Tahm Kench, and Lulu. They may not have a dozen tools to fit the situation, but they really test your ability to read the map or teamfight in the right contexts, and you reading the enemy team correctly means you can turn a lot of fights that go bad. They just funnel a lot of that mastery curve into central parts of their respective kits that are immensely powerful if the player can learn to use them correctly. I think Taric's rework did a lot to bake in that kind of decision-centric mastery, as well. I just don't think skillshots and multi-tiered abilities are the only factors that make a mastery curve high or low.

Josh Sand2 votes

{quoted}

I agree, but I also think that as a Support it isn't your job to out-play your opponent on a mechanical level. As a support I think it's your job to be able to out-think and out-pressure the enemy jg/support duo. You can win the game for your team as a support, but you do it by being faster to the rotations, negating their ganking pressure, and creating windows for your mechanical out players. If you create a support that's both mechanically intensive and dependent on good map awareness, you're asking too much of a single player. If you want mechanical prowess, you're just looking at the wrong role.

Also, I think you're short-changing the mastery curves on a few supports, like Bard, Tahm Kench, and Lulu. They may not have a dozen tools to fit the situation, but they really test your ability to read the map or teamfight in the right contexts, and you reading the enemy team correctly means you can turn a lot of fights that go bad. They just funnel a lot of that mastery curve into central parts of their respective kits that are immensely powerful if the player can learn to use them correctly. I think Taric's rework did a lot to bake in that kind of decision-centric mastery, as well. I just don't think skillshots and multi-tiered abilities are the only factors that make a mastery curve high or low.

You make a good point about Taric. There is a distinct difference between a 20 game Taric and 100 game Taric. It's fair to say he's a good example of a deep mastery support. And I would obviously put Thresh in that same category.

In regards to champs like Lulu and Tahm Kench, I think the term I should have specified earlier was "Mastery Expression."

I understand that my own personal experience is anecdotal at best, so I am curious what other people think. From my experience, I have about 200 ranked games played on Lulu, Nami, and Thresh. The other supports I have about 100 - 150 each.

Given my similar playtime with that group of champs, I feel that have gotten about as good as I am going to get with Lulu. It's pretty simple to determine who to polymorph and who to shield at any given fight. It's the same play pattern almost every game. Playing her allows me to focus more on the macro game, which is nice - but in terms of actual mastery expression, I feel just as proficient with her today as I did a year ago.

When I look at Thresh though, despite having the same number of games played as Lulu, I feel like I have barely scratched the surface of what he is truly capable of. There are still tangible improvements I can make with Thresh from game to game and that's a great feeling. It always gives me something to experiment and challenge myself with.

That's the experience I want more of when playing support. I like helping out allies and stifling opponent's plans, but that doesn't mean that the only way to do that is to stay within the confines of two or three basic play-pattern templates.

Riot can come up with amazing champions that have unique ways of delivering damage. I have no doubt that they have the ability to do the same when creating tools of disruption.

coeurloyal1 votes

Ahhh, gotcha. Focusing on expression rather than the actual mastery makes your point of view make a lot more sense.

I agree that there really isn't much of that for supports outside of their ults because they supply so much background power. I also agree that Thresh is really the only one that really showcases that-- and maybe Taric and Bard to a (much) more limited extent. I can't blame you for wanting to see more supports with a bit more flash in their kit... every other role has a pretty wide pool that allows them to do that.

Clementine2 votes

Most of the skill comes with item actives (perfect Mikaels, redemptioning where the teamfight is going to be, shit like that takes a lot of awareness). Thresh isn't hard to play well either, it's just hitting a Q and throwing a W to your closest teammate so I don't get why Thresh players get all the credit and other supports none. I wouldn't mind a more complicated/advanced support though

Kallian2 votes

Soraka is too easy of a support to be completely honest, afk in lane, Q a few times, and heal your adc during trades

KoggyStyle1 votes

outheal enemy kits and turret shots even tho enemy has grevious wounds? seems legit.

Shirvallah2 votes

Am I the only one that thinks Nami is fairly difficult to master?

Sagan Forever1 votes

No

KoggyStyle1 votes

shes pretty easy.... e your self or carry q slowed oppenent w for dmg / heal output r. if they aint dead your teams doing it wrong.

Shirvallah2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snaggle Tooth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OpyjFYpa,comment-id=00130001,timestamp=2017-02-11T19:52:42.370+0000)

shes pretty easy.... e your self or carry q slowed oppenent w for dmg / heal output r. if they aint dead your teams doing it wrong.

I get this feeling that you're oversimplifying her kit when Nami's playstyle is so much more than that. I think it's literally_ALL_ pretty situational.

Any Nami can spam heal, but I think it takes a good Nami to know who to bounce the heal on first. Not to mention, her bubble is one of the hardest skillshots I've ever had to land — as the animation is one of the absolute slowest. The small circle skillshot is quite unforgiving, and anyone that has a brain (even the least mobile of champions) can dodge the Nami bubble, unless the Nami player successfully calls out the direction they're going. I see Nami after Nami after Nami throw out their bubble during laning phase without thinking, and what do they do? They screw themselves over, as well as their teammate(s), because the enemies realize, "Hey, the only other hard cc Nami has is her ultimate," as the CD of the bubble is quite high due to the fact most people max it last.

Then, there are the little things I see people do all the time — such as using the E on themselves while going for an enemy or during a teamfight when they could easily give the E to, say, their ally marksman in order to speed them up and slow the enemy down, since they can attack in quicker succession. Then, there's overplacing or underplacing the bubble when someone's chasing after or running from the Nami's team.

Then, there's the big one — not using her ultimate properly. I think really the only times a one-man Nami ultimate is acceptable are as follows: A. When you're in laning phase, and you're canceling a Jhin or Miss Fortune ultimate (etc.). B. When you're helping your team making an important pick. C. Other certain highly situational things. Otherwise, you have GOT to hit at LEAST a few people. If you don't, then, honestly, what's the point?

Plus, have you SEEN how mana hungry her kit is — ESPECIALLY her heal? Pretty damn 'spensive — even for a support champion.

I have a lot more to say about this champion, but I have dinner plans, lol.

KillerVaca2 votes

thresh is easy to play, he's got the lantern, to move people and the rest of his kit is just lockdown. since 3 abilities provide some sort of cc, margin of error is high to catch somebody. Add flash, exhaust... you just have so many options to catch/peel that you always are helpful.

Truly Prideful2 votes

I feel like you might overstate the difficulty of Thresh quite a bit. Bard probably has a higher difficulty because bad usage of Magical Journey and Tempered Fate can completely screw your team. Thresh can miss abilities, but cannot directly cause his team to lose fights through poor usage / placement.

coeurloyal1 votes

Actually, they can if they miss a hook and blow the only threat of hard cc your team has to stop an all-in.

I'm not a support player--I play ADC--but I've gotta say, Thresh is much more difficult to execute than 90% of ADCs in the game.

Reapstarr1 votes

Try jumping on the Mage support train. I main xerath support. I'm not sure if that's the type of mastery you're looking for but I enjoy it.

Nothing beats landing 5/5 of your ult on the enemy carry, for the solo kill. Also, you're so squishy that if you miss skill shots or have bad positioning you die real fast.

KoggyStyle1 votes

been playin mage nami for awhile. am i dead if theyre on me? yes.... am i goin to gib squishys in a rotation? yes.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Nah, they'd just rather send Mid-laners bot and ignore supports entirely. They want to send MORE mages bot don't ya know?

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Does Riot plan on creating a champion that is mediocre at low elos but absolutely obliterates balance at high elos because they are overloaded and put more emphasis on skill expression than actual game health?

Sagan Forever1 votes

Azir the order has already been given. Also Ryze , Riven fit that pretty well.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

LeeSin Nidalee Elise all fit that bill pretty well. They're hard to master, and require more then mediocre game knowledge and mechanics. You'll never see a Nidalee perform consistently well in Lower Elos.

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Lee stomps every elo and his supposed skill floor is overrated...

None of those champions are bad at low eli anyways and Elise is pretty straightforward

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

Lee's perfomrmance is considerably lower the lower you go in Elo. He's a strong champion, but he hardly dominates.

Nidalee is hardly at a 44% Win rate in platinum, let alone Bronze. She's absolutely atrocious in the hands of someone without good game and champion knowledge.

Elise is in the same boat as Lee, she has a solid kit, but it doesn't mean she performs well in lower Elo's.

RookPusher1 votes

You know I'm glad you posted this because honestly, the rise of the AP Mage isn't because people are trolling. It's happening because people can't push the game forward with the existing stock of Support champs.

Riot needs a full blown Support rework, because right now it seems like half-baked idea.

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