Riot: "we don't want to play whack a mole" preseason: WHACK WHACK WHACK

MrSc0tty·Dec 4, 2014·47 votes·4,179 views

"Oh look WW's ult with the new enchant deals a whole lot of on hit effects super fast. We never intended that."

"Should we just add a little bit of code to the item so the effect can only occur so often, thus solving the problem while not knocking a champ out of our overall plan for strategic diversity?"

"No let's gut Warwick"

"Fiora and Pantheon can exploit their autoattack block mechanics to do dragon extremely early because we coded its attack as a basic autoattack with really low speed."

"Oh, well the obvious thing to do is just allow dragon to bypass those so we can still have strategi-"

"NERF PANTHEON AND FIORA"

74 Comments

AgidyneDec 4, 201432 votes

Honestly, the other Devourer users are not as broken as Warwick is.

So nerfing Devourer would simply be a nerf to every single Devourer user, such as Udyr and Yi, despite them not being a problem.

So they rather bring Warwicks power down so his power with the item is similar to every other user.

MrSc0ttyDec 4, 20147 votes

Honestly, the other Devourer users are not as broken as Warwick is.

So nerfing Devourer would simply be a nerf to every single Devourer user, such as Udyr and Yi, despite them not being a problem.

So they rather bring Warwicks power down so his power with the item is similar to every other user.

If devourer could only proc every .75 seconds, WW would only get 2 of its onhits in his ult, but you'd need almost max attack speed before you could feel the effects of the nerf just by basic attacking. .5 seconds would be a more light ww nerf but nobody else would really be affected at all.

AgidyneDec 4, 201420 votes

But is easier to nerf a champion to fit an item than nerf an item to fit one champion.

We already saw that many times in the past.

Vayne got nerfed because of Bork (after the bork nerfs themselves), Talon got nerfed because of The African American Cleaver, Jax got nerfed because of Triforce, Garen got nerfed because of Warmogs, Mundo & Singed got nerfed because of the Force of Nature, etc.

I rather nerf Warwick than nerf Devourer. I hated that champion with a passion

My pre30 games, 2 and half seasons ago were always full of Warwicks.

And the champion itself has the most binary design in the game, it's literally a press R champ, he is more binary than Garen, Garen at least has to be spin on top of people to succeed and somehow predict when his ult will be a sure kill on someone. Warwick just presses R.

I rather have Riot gut Warwick and see how the other Devourer users become. If Yi, Udyr and Fiora become overwhelming, then fine. Gut the goddamn item and revert Warwicks nerfs.

If not, then I guess Warwick should just have to wait until his rework.

Meanwhile Warwick players can just play Vi instead.

As Vi is literally just a Warwick with Depth in her kit.

Sire HippingtonDec 4, 201416 votes

Yis passive and Shys Q wouldn't work with devourer then, and most devourer users over reache 1.5 AS on a regular basis, which is the breaking point for then they loos out procs. It would lead to a strange scenario in which you loose dps by building more AS cause the aditional AS causes you to proc devourer only every second hit, which would be total bullshit. The whole point off on-hit effeckts is that they scale of as and abillitys that trigger them, your change would prettymuch take away what makes an on-hit, just to indirectly nerf a single problematic champion. Nerfing that champion directly is way easier and convinient without side-effeckts for other champions, and way more logical.

oraDec 4, 20143 votes

You should probably tighten up that DPS before it gets so loose that you lose it.

DemiluniSDec 5, 20141 votes

are you really complaining about them nerfing in ww? this champ got 0 skill requirement to play him, yet he got the highest win rate in the game. good thing they gutting him, I don't wanna see him anytime until the rework

chumblerDec 5, 20142 votes

are you really complaining about them nerfing in ww? this champ got 0 skill requirement to play him, yet he got the highest win rate in the game. good thing they gutting him, I don't wanna see him anytime until the rework

Because Warwick suddenly being good has literally nothing to do with Warwick and everything to do with shitty jungle changes.

Knight SoIaire Dec 5, 20141 votes

you miss the point a little it has everything to do with warwick beenefiting twice as much from the jungle changes than others

other junglers that dont use dewourer for instance stand in similar spot as they did besides pantheon and fiora

while warwick got literaly everything he could want from it (stronger on hits from dewourer, and additional on hits from smite)

if the changes would suck we would see a total breakdown in the jungle while all we see are 3 champions having some mechanics that allow them to work better in the jungle

SaiannaDec 4, 20145 votes

Problem is: Once WW gonna get nerfed some smart players will find a way to abuse devourer on different champion. Maybe udyr with 2,5as? Or Fiora with pretty much similar ulti as WW (triggers on-hit)? Or master Yi?

WW was almost always strong and he needed to get nerfed, But lets be honest in this case devourer enchantment should be changed first. It will only cause more problems later :/

Sire HippingtonDec 4, 20143 votes

the problem with WW is that he has a bad kit design wise, and as soon as he becomes strong he is a problem, as all he has to do in small scle fights is press R and rightclick afterwards, and you have nearly no counterplay.

If the item proofs to be problematic on many champs, it can still be toned down, but WW is currently a very extreme case and therefor needs to get nerfed.

SaiannaDec 4, 20142 votes

WWs kit was allright before. Not too strong, nor too weak. But with every passing season new items came. And that's what made him OP..

For example before/in season 1 there was just 1 on-hit item: wits end. Now we have about 10+ of them.. It's not WWs fault those items weren't OPproof checked by Riot. (actually there was also tiamat, but it was... badly designed, pretty useless item)

And i'm just damn sure, once WW gets nerfed new champion will get in his place "OP x nerf plyx". What then? Nerf circle till WW gonna be on top again? Fix problems: items, not patch the wound by nerfing champions.

Earl EulrichDec 4, 20142 votes

the kit never had been alright, it always featured very little gameplay on his side and very little counterplay for his opponents. Which is exactly the reason he´s on the rework list.

LankPantsDec 4, 20145 votes

There's a huge difference between uydr dealing the on hit damage with autos and WW applying it 5 times in 2 seconds with his ult.

JunkοDec 4, 20144 votes

There is also a difference between a champion being useless without his ult and a champion being strong with only 3 abilities.

Udyr is def not the former. Also Udyr maxing Q can technically apply it a shit ton of times way more often than WW, but building on hit Udyr is not viable cause he really needs to buy tanky to survive (WW is just R click somebody).

Cale017Dec 5, 20143 votes

You also can still fight back against an Udyr who's attacking you. WW suppresses you and all you can do is watch while he eats you alive and heals for it too.

JunkοDec 5, 20141 votes

Gl fighting against a MS beast with a stun and tons of AS and on hit dmg if you max Q, Oh and his W gives him a shield and lifesteal too.

Though WW is broken atm, not fair comparing the two.

Cale017Dec 5, 20142 votes

Udyr can still be kited pretty easily, which makes his MS meaningless.

He has tons of attack damage, but maxing his Q reduces his survivability considerably.

You can still fight back against an Udyr even if they're in your face. The stun only lasts for a second, and his damage is directly related to how many autos he can get off in that time. Unlike Warwick who holds you in place unable to do anything while doing more damage in a short span of time than he could have with just autos.

The comparison is sound.

AlëkDec 4, 20142 votes

Problem is: Once WW gonna get nerfed some smart players will find a way to abuse devourer on different champion. Maybe udyr with 2,5as? Or Fiora with pretty much similar ulti as WW (triggers on-hit)? Or master Yi?

WW was almost always strong and he needed to get nerfed, But lets be honest in this case devourer enchantment should be changed first. It will only cause more problems later :/

"smart players" beside atleast they won't be OP. Udyr is definitely Tier 1. But his problem remains. He can get kited so hard. Fiora is just.... fiora. and Yi is just.... Yi

ReuniclakazamDec 4, 20141 votes

They're kind of a problem too, just not being picked up because the simplicity of warwick's scale makes it easy to master.

The Storm DragonDec 4, 201423 votes

Warwick isn't a champion that deserves to be strong. He has no mechanics. There is no playmaking ability with Warwick. He either has enough damage to kill you before you kill him or he doesn't. He cannot fail. He's crazy outdated, and for some reason they went back to the drawing board with his rework even though it was already finished.

You'll note that they're also nerfing Skirmisher's Saber and Devourer in the same patch that they're nerfing Warwick. It's not just because he uses the items well. It's because Riot doesn't want him to be popular until he's reworked into having a healthy play pattern.

A Retarded ClownDec 4, 20147 votes

and that is why LoL is becoming bullshit. Everything has to be 100% on the spot play making twitch action reflex skills. If WW can never fail then neither can a ranged ADC by your logic. Vayne can never fail she either has enough damage or not, Twitch, trist etc. all can never fail unless they are ahead, that's toxic but somehow it's only toxic for melees to have RELIABLE fucking skills.

I'm sorry that Riot suddenly wants this to be Dota 2 but I enjoyed LoL for having unique champions that did unique things that I, the summoner, could rely on and plan accordingly. Not having a bunch of champs all do knockups with 4 different spells required to hit while dashing all over the map and eventually killing the target. Sure it's fun to have on a few champs but if every champ is suddenly more complex than Dota 2 (Dota 2 has a delay and turn rates that mean your burden is more of knowledge and timing, not how fast you can click) then yeah this game just got rekt.

Not that my opinion matters since I have to leave soon but it seems I've already been pushed away by Riot's design philosophy changing so drastically.

NarasimhaDec 4, 20142 votes

Its not that hard. Its risk vs reward. If a champion has a high risk, then they should get a high reward. All the adcs you mentioned? They have to actually build precisely. They NEED crits, life steal, and armor pen, to do what they do. On the other side, a champion with a low risk should not have high rewards. Even if he only builds Devourer's and skirmishers and goes full tank otherwise, WW's damage output is insane. He has the strongest form of cc in the game and innate sustain.

A Retarded ClownDec 5, 20145 votes

Oh yes much high risk fight from far have shields exh etc. to peel wow so much risk.

If ADC was indeed THAT high risk they wouldn't be played at all. This is something you need to wrap your head around: in the pro meta, people DON'T take risks with team comps. That adc is one hell of an investment or they wouldn't be on the team.

No OGN team dared pick Shaco, Urgot, Teemo, Or anything for the sort. The tema that did : aka Galio and Varus got steamrolled to the point it looked like they lost on purpose. If picking an ADC was high risk there would be none in the pro meta, ever.

Zed/Fizz etc. were not high risk, they have escapes that make sure they don't have to 100% all in and do a lot of damage, even despite this their win rate was god awful.

WW in fact is MELEE, no escape so anytime he ults he's basically taking a HUGE risk. If he's not a tanky son of a bitch or very ahead guess what he's about to get decimated. Same way an ADC does if they position so poorly that not even their free escape, Summoner spells and personal bodyguard with 500 peels and heals can save them.

they have to build precisely. WW can't go adc build either. The one and only reason he is OP is the stacking Devourer on his ult plus challenging smite. THat's it....his design is NOT bad, it's iconic and one of the best ones in the game with a powerful E , R and W/Q that just work with his kit and make him feel good to play, and not ridiculously complicated like Lee Sin, Yasuo, Azir etc. who just have hard ways of getting knockups on ppl and removing their counterplay.

windwolf777Dec 7, 20141 votes

He has the strongest form of cc in the game

I thought that knock-ups were considered the strongest cc? Or does it also include suppress because of the unaffected by tenacity?

NarasimhaDec 7, 20141 votes

Knock-ups are technically stronger, but WW's ult holds a special rank because its a point-and-click suppress that doubles as a gapcloser.

windwolf777Dec 7, 20141 votes

Ah. Understandable now. Thank you for that. So from my understanding, without champ context knock-up is stronger pretty much? If so thank you for the clarification :)

LankPantsDec 4, 201414 votes

I do wish they would start playing whack-a-mole with champs who have been strong for a while and continue to be too strong LeeSin

Long Dong WukongDec 4, 20142 votes

E$ports.

JunkοDec 4, 20142 votes

LC$BIGPLAY$

BetaDude40Dec 4, 20141 votes

blaring casino noises

Remlap1223Dec 4, 20144 votes

I hate whack a mole as much as the next guy, but if there was any champ to do that on, it's Warwick. He's already on the rework list anyways, this will most likely bump him up said list (like Soraka was when she was terrorizing top and mid lane.). Fiora has been on the rework list for aa while as well for her no counterplay ultimate, and Pantheon is soloing dragon at level 3. All nerfs I agree with. Pantheon's nerf won't work however, as his abilities stack his ageis, so instead of attacking, he's just going to Q spam.l

Lumus AvatarDec 4, 20142 votes

They reduced Panth's attack speed, but I haven't seen a change to his Aegis of Protection or his ult [as others have suggested]

ShínyDec 4, 20142 votes

Reports from PBE say that they have changed the Dragon basic attacks to nerf Panth/fiora . http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bugs/uHtYNqEA-pantheon-doesnt-block-autoattacks-from-dragon-with-his-passive

Lumus AvatarDec 4, 20143 votes

That seems better than changing the passive. I think it's unfortunate that he would not be unable to benefit from his passive against dragon, but if it was allowing him to solo dragon at level 2, then a change was needed and I'm glad the change is to the dragon as opposed to the champion.

ShínyDec 4, 20143 votes

My only worry at the moment is the feeling that Riot is hitting the pantheon problem from too many angles. With dragon getting this change, I'm not quite sure why they have the attack speed changes prepped as well :\

Lumus AvatarDec 4, 20143 votes

I agree. If they're changing the dragon so his passive doesn't proc against it, then why ALSO change his attack speed?

ProfDrDeathDec 4, 20141 votes

Because Dragon is only part of the problem. The frequency with which he can proc his passive in the jungle itself obviously also influences the sustain and speed of his clear.

ShínyDec 4, 20142 votes

Its possible this is true, but his ability to solo dragon distorts his winrate significantly. I just feel like taking the time to see how the dragon changes affect him before attacking him more would be wise.

Lumus AvatarDec 4, 20145 votes

Again, I agree. Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, Riot wasn't taught the Scientific Method and so does not understand that successful experiments involve a Control group and a Variable Group with a Single Variable.

DemiluniSDec 5, 20141 votes

his win rate sky rocket to 55%, I don't think the Dragon cheese is the only reason for his nerf

ShínyDec 5, 20142 votes

And 74 % of teams that get first dragon win, it quite possibly a huge part of his power right now.

MrBuffingtonDec 7, 20141 votes

Thanks for sharing this; I was just thinking that if they only nerf Panth's attack speed, I could see a lot of Panth players just switching up runes/masteries to add some AS and it's just be the same thing all over again

IronChefBoyardeeDec 4, 20141 votes

Are they nerfing Panth anf Fiora? I've not seen any pbe updates yet for that. Or maybe i just missed it.

MrSc0ttyDec 4, 20142 votes

Are they nerfing Panth anf Fiora? I've not seen any pbe updates yet for that. Or maybe i just missed it.

Panth got a hefty attack speed pop, fiora's ult has already been Nerfed.

Sire HippingtonDec 4, 20144 votes

The fioranerfs were befor the preseason, they had nothing to do with her dragon-potential, but with her snowbally toplane

MrSc0ttyDec 4, 20142 votes

The fioranerfs were befor the preseason, they had nothing to do with her dragon-potential, but with her snowbally toplane

We'll reduce her snowballs toplane by increasing the damage her ult deals to one target.

Brilliant.

JJI744Dec 4, 20145 votes

The fioranerfs were befor the preseason, they had nothing to do with her dragon-potential, but with her snowbally toplane

We'll reduce her snowballs toplane by increasing the damage her ult deals to one target.

Brilliant.

Before you make that kind of statement, calculate the damage to a single target before and after the change.

Hint: it is basically the same single-target damage.

CM CalgarDec 4, 20141 votes

So if your slow on the qss and your team can't react quick enough, buy a banshees veil. Works against Vi should work against WW. I just don't see how he is OP everything he has can be countered, From his ult, to his passive healing (ignite).

And yes a flash smite ult is counterable, cancel the ult you have wasted his flash and smite. Not like the ult is hard to stop he stand in one place for about 3 seconds.

Sire HippingtonDec 4, 20143 votes

in a clash, yes, if your alone, ther is nothing you can do besides rushing a banshies, which eventually can beproced by your opponent laner(or even WWs smite i guess), or rushing QSS, which both delays your core-gear a whole lot and massively sets you behind. It was the same with S1 eve, people said you can easily counter her with pinks and oracles, but investing that much gold early on in those tihngs set you far behind the opponent lane so that eve didn't even have to gank to snowball her lanes...

Skia AsteriDec 4, 20141 votes

in a clash, yes, if your alone, ther is nothing you can do besides rushing a banshies, which eventually can beproced by your opponent laner(or even WWs smite i guess), or rushing QSS, which both delays your core-gear a whole lot and massively sets you behind.

QSS only ends the suppress, the damage continues. Morgana's Black Shield prevents the suppress, you still take the damage sans magic damage absorbed by the shield.

You have to get out of his ult range to end the damage, or possibly hard cc / silence him to end the channel.