The game is too complicated.

Zero Shingetsu·Apr 30, 2018·1 votes·3,450 views

I was reading through an old post in which a slew of people tried to explain Lethality and League's damage calculations to eachother, back when it was a new thing. It was that post that made me realize League's glaring weakness, and the reason balancing the game is like walking a tightrope carrying a 20-foot stack of steel scrap in a driving wind.

The game is too damn complicated.

All the good MOBAs on the market seem to have fairly simple calculations. What you see is largely what you get. It makes balance tweaks much simpler when there are only three or four elements to the overall formula. League has gone wild, implementing like eight different formulae, each with 3-6 contributing variables and coefficients. It's sheer chaos, and I suggest the next big revamp be used to throw it all out and start anew with something a little simpler to grasp.

The players will thank you for making their task more streamlined, and your balance team will thank you for the same reason.

16 Comments

sterealApr 30, 20183 votes

I have over 2000 hours on Dota 2. (Yes I just mentioned Dota in a league forum wanna fite?) Trust me when I say LoL is so much easier. It took me 500 hours of Dota just to learn the game and understand mechanics to a somewhat decent level, and 1000 hours altogether just to be decent. Most people that reach the "Gold" level of Dota 2 have like 1500 hours+ no joke. It's not even an exaggeration it really can take that long. Games go for like an hour long EVERY game there, and there is no surrender. So 1 hour isn't much at all when there is so much to learn and understand in Dota 2 like all the champs, abilities, camp timings etc.

In LoL you have it so much easier, you can surrender whenever you want after 15 mins, there's no movement delay when walking around, and a lot of LoL's mechanics/macros on champions are more simple. Also you have to cs your own minions in Dota 2 to stop the enemy from gaining experience, as well as csing enemy minions, (I'm not saying it's better ok LoL>Trash2, I'm just telling how it is) Name a champion in LoL that has the same mechanics as Dota 2's heroes "Invoker". His abilities are extremely hard to play at a low level, and even harder to play at a high level. Azir is no comparison (which is arguably one of the most difficult champions in the game). Not only that, but you have to consider all the time you have to put into the game into learning other things AS WELL as learning just that one champion.

In LoL you can relax more, and I can say this because I have put a lot of time into both games and moving from Dota 2 to LoL was a lot less stressing. You have it much better in LoL than you do in almost any other MOBA.

Zero ShingetsuApr 30, 20181 votes

I don't mean mechanically, the mechanics of League are more or less fine. I'm talking more about damage calculations and volume of statistics. There are so many variables involved that balance is a mess to perform. The more fat you trim off a game's mechanics, the simpler it is to tweak, and this is a crucial thing for MOBAs due to never ending champion releases.

LuminevApr 30, 20182 votes

This game is waay simple compared to other MOBAs my dude.

Zero ShingetsuApr 30, 20181 votes

It's way simple compared to DOTA, whose fanbase is rather niche. Compare it to HotS, SMITE or Paladins, and it's rather more complicated. Both HotS and SMITE are doing quite well for themselves, and Paladins was on the rise last I checked.

DW DianaMay 1, 20182 votes

Wow I couldn't disagree more... Look at all the online games around at the moment. What are they ALL building for: variety! If I play a rogue style class in an mmorpg, do I want to to be exactly the same as every other rogue style class? No. If I play a FPS like Planetside 2, do I want to be EXACTLY the same as every other player? No, you invest in what you like. Warframe with just one build for every one? Ha! Customization is Key. So we come to MOBA's. They have 4 abilities plus a passive, they have about 15 items per role. They have the same runes available for everyone. The ONLY real customization provided is through the complexity of the mechanics. And tbh they aren't all that hard to learn. The wiki tells you most of it (if you don't notice the details given in game) and then google tells you the rest. It's really not a complicated game, and even basic macro is easy to learn (though it seems beyond most of the community). What makes it good is the fact that every game, every build, every teamcomp, and even every champion is completely different. Even different players play matchups differently. Hell I've seen people on twitter and youtube who played malz in a way that made me want to cry (I actually stopped watching them because they made me angry), then along comes Crown who plays him exactly as I do, and I was overjoyed. The complexity of League is what makes it interesting. It's what keeps people playing it even when they HATE it. Otherwise it's just GW2 with a few classes, a few abilities, and boredom after a few days, uninstall and never look back. Say what you like about League and Riot but you can't say it's ANYTHING like that.

BoltonatorApr 30, 20181 votes

There is no feasible method to “please everybody” it’s just a pipe dream in the grand scheme of things...therefore I wouldn’t get my hopes up of a streamlined set of mechanics.

NevurwinApr 30, 20181 votes

If you think all other MOBA's are more simplified, then this means the most complicated MOBA by your standards (LoL) happens to be the most successful and longest standing one as well. I find that very interesting.

Zero ShingetsuApr 30, 20181 votes

It's also the oldest, and the statistically simpler HotS is quickly overtaking it in popularity. This is like saying everything China does is the best way of doing things because they've existed longer than any other country.

NevurwinApr 30, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmlLNYbL,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-30T22:50:37.444+0000)

It's also the oldest, and the statistically simpler HotS is quickly overtaking it in popularity. This is like saying everything China does is the best way of doing things because they've existed longer than any other country.

Hahaha, HOTS ???? Are you kidding me, HOTS is a piece of garbage Blizzard threw together just to get a piece of the MOBA pie. There is no way in hell that participation trophy bullshit of a game will ever come close to League...EVER.

and your analogy does not really relate or hold the same weight, popularity is controlled and dictated by player base. League has been the longest standing top MOBA basically since its release, and the closest any MOBA ever came was like what??... 3-4 years ago , DOTA2 was relatively close in size, maybe? If people felt its complexity was hindering it, then league would be declining and other MOBA's would be passing it up. This is not the case.

This is just a tiny, tiny example :

League of Legends 117,354 viewers

Heroes of the Storm 8,822 viewers

Current numbers on Twitch.tv at this very moment of writing this post.

Zero ShingetsuApr 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Hahaha, HOTS ???? Are you kidding me, HOTS is a piece of garbage Blizzard threw together just to get a piece of the MOBA pie. There is no way in hell that participation trophy bullshit of a game will ever come close to League...EVER.

That's opinion. I don't debate in opinion. (Also, it sounds like you might have struggled in HotS. Was it Nova? You can see shimmer if you look close, you know. Heavens, I hope it wasn't my Nova... I deeply apologize if you had to face me.)

and your analogy does not really relate or hold the same weight, popularity is controlled and dictated by player base. League has been the longest standing top MOBA basically since its release, and the closest any MOBA ever came was like what??... 3-4 years ago , DOTA2 was relatively close in size, maybe? If people felt its complexity was hindering it, then league would be declining and other MOBA's would be passing it up. This is not the case.

HotS and Paladins are both still on their upswing. League didn't reach a state of ubiquitous notoriety until a good three years after its release. You're directly comparing a game that's been out for around a decade to a game that's been out what, three years? I mean of course GTA IV is going to have sold more lifetime copies than Mass Effect Andromeda a year into its release.

This is just a tiny, tiny example :

League of Legends 117,354 viewers

Heroes of the Storm 8,822 viewers

Current numbers on Twitch.tv at this very moment of writing this post.

This is likely because more people want to actually play HotS. Due to its statistical simplicity, it's more accessible to play and doesn't require sitting idle and watching weeks worth of streams and tournaments to learn how to play it to decent effect. It takes me about a minute and a half on average to find a League game in blind pick. In HotS, where you pick your hero first and teams are automatically balanced with a selection of roles, meaning matchmaking has to find people within your MMR, who are also not playing the hero you are, who are ALSO not playing a role you're playing... It takes me upwards of 35 seconds to find a game.

Looking at practical data, I really think HotS has a stronger player base than you're giving it credit for. I'm not saying it's as strong as League's (yet), but it doesn't have to be. Horizon Zero Dawn pushed less copies than GTA V, but it was still a great game that a lot of people really enjoyed. And I'm not saying League is a garbage game. At first, it too was a game Riot threw together to get a piece of the MOBA pie, which was a concept first popularized within a Blizzard property. This is true. But it's since come into its own and is a legitimately fun game, but for balance issues. Those balance issues get harder and harder to fix as they add more crap under the hood. This is all I'm saying.

NevurwinMay 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmlLNYbL,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-30T23:59:19.566+0000)

That's opinion. I don't debate in opinion. (Also, it sounds like you might have struggled in HotS. Was it Nova? You can see shimmer if you look close, you know. Heavens, I hope it wasn't my Nova... I deeply apologize if you had to face me.)

HotS and Paladins are both still on their upswing. League didn't reach a state of ubiquitous notoriety until a good three years after its release. You're directly comparing a game that's been out for around a decade to a game that's been out what, three years? I mean of course GTA IV is going to have sold more lifetime copies than Mass Effect Andromeda a year into its release.

This is likely because more people want to actually play HotS. Due to its statistical simplicity, it's more accessible to play and doesn't require sitting idle and watching weeks worth of streams and tournaments to learn how to play it to decent effect. It takes me about a minute and a half on average to find a League game in blind pick. In HotS, where you pick your hero first and teams are automatically balanced with a selection of roles, meaning matchmaking has to find people within your MMR, who are also not playing the hero you are, who are ALSO not playing a role you're playing... It takes me upwards of 35 seconds to find a game.

Looking at practical data, I really think HotS has a stronger player base than you're giving it credit for. I'm not saying it's as strong as League's (yet), but it doesn't have to be. Horizon Zero Dawn pushed less copies than GTA V, but it was still a great game that a lot of people really enjoyed. And I'm not saying League is a garbage game. At first, it too was a game Riot threw together to get a piece of the MOBA pie, which was a concept first popularized within a Blizzard property. This is true. But it's since come into its own and is a legitimately fun game, but for balance issues. Those balance issues get harder and harder to fix as they add more crap under the hood. This is all I'm saying.

Man, i'm not even sure where to start with this one i actually stopped playing HotS because of its simplicity and easy going nature. Nova is actually one of the heros i learned from the very start of the game and first one i purchased/ earned, shes actually a very simple hero. I hated the whole "every body levels together" bullshit, and the fact that everyone gets a kill if you just basically landed an assists. I felt like it took away from skill expression and the ability to solo carry. If i went 20/0 and did the heavy lifting, you can barely tell cause your entire team pretty much has the same score... That is the participation trophy shit i am referring to.
This statement is simply not true League became top dog around 2011, ( hardly 2 years into its lifespan ) it was released late 2009, shortly after season 1 finished. HotS was released mid 2015, (playable well before then) and is dwarfed in numbers still, im not even sure why you think its growing fast. If anything its one of the slowest growing ones ive seen. Hell even Dawn Gate was catching more steam in its Beta and they didn't have the budget or backing of a giant company like Blizzard.
its your opinion that League takes weeks of watching streams and tournaments to learn to play. Should i say i dont debate in opinion? It literally takes 3 minutes in training mode to simply learn the abilities... everything after that is just fine tuning your skill on the champ. Also, if you think more people are playing HotS you are outta your darn mind. For every one viewer you see on twitch you can bet your ass there are 10+ more people actually playing the game. Probably more to be fair, especially considering the other regions of the world.
This depends on what we define as a strong player base. By itself, alone , yes HotS has a good following compared to many/most games. But if youre trying to compare it to the largest game in the world (Excluding the Fortnite Fad) then no, it does not have a strong following.

Unless the developers put a character cap on the game, this is literally every problem of MOBA's now and in the future. You really think this isnt/wont happen to HotS?

Zero ShingetsuMay 1, 20181 votes

This changed. You still get EXP as a group (which makes games more competitive because one good farmer can keep the whole team up to par, while everyone else is pushing objectives and getting into fights), but they now track K/D/A the same way League does.
Top dog in the MOBA world, yeah, but it didn't really gain household name status for a couple years after that.
It's an opinion based on research. Namely, the fact that almost every single thread I've ever seen wherein players are asking how to improve, people suggest watching streams and tournaments to help them master a specific mechanic or champion.
Good point.

NevurwinMay 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmlLNYbL,comment-id=000200000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-01T16:56:32.098+0000)

This changed. You still get EXP as a group (which makes games more competitive because one good farmer can keep the whole team up to par, while everyone else is pushing objectives and getting into fights), but they now track K/D/A the same way League does.

Top dog in the MOBA world, yeah, but it didn't really gain household name status for a couple years after that.

It's an opinion based on research. Namely, the fact that almost every single thread I've ever seen wherein players are asking how to improve, people suggest watching streams and tournaments to help them master a specific mechanic or champion.

Good point.

Well im glad they changed a few of those things. It killed the game for me.
it was Household by Season 2 they were selling out at e-sports venues, and had millions concurrently watching Worlds S2.
This logic can be applied to any game, competitive or not. There is a difference between having Knowledge of a champion, being Adequate with said champion, and Mastering the champion.
Ty, it is sad but true. Just the consequence of an ever expanding game. They all reach that point eventually, assuming they keep updating and adding. Riot has noticed this effect, and has drastically slowed down the rate at which they pump out champions per year. At one point it was a new champion every 2 weeks.

LuminevMay 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmlLNYbL,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-30T23:59:19.566+0000)

That's opinion. I don't debate in opinion. (Also, it sounds like you might have struggled in HotS. Was it Nova? You can see shimmer if you look close, you know. Heavens, I hope it wasn't my Nova... I deeply apologize if you had to face me.)

HotS and Paladins are both still on their upswing. League didn't reach a state of ubiquitous notoriety until a good three years after its release. You're directly comparing a game that's been out for around a decade to a game that's been out what, three years? I mean of course GTA IV is going to have sold more lifetime copies than Mass Effect Andromeda a year into its release.

This is likely because more people want to actually play HotS. Due to its statistical simplicity, it's more accessible to play and doesn't require sitting idle and watching weeks worth of streams and tournaments to learn how to play it to decent effect. It takes me about a minute and a half on average to find a League game in blind pick. In HotS, where you pick your hero first and teams are automatically balanced with a selection of roles, meaning matchmaking has to find people within your MMR, who are also not playing the hero you are, who are ALSO not playing a role you're playing... It takes me upwards of 35 seconds to find a game.

Looking at practical data, I really think HotS has a stronger player base than you're giving it credit for. I'm not saying it's as strong as League's (yet), but it doesn't have to be. Horizon Zero Dawn pushed less copies than GTA V, but it was still a great game that a lot of people really enjoyed. And I'm not saying League is a garbage game. At first, it too was a game Riot threw together to get a piece of the MOBA pie, which was a concept first popularized within a Blizzard property. This is true. But it's since come into its own and is a legitimately fun game, but for balance issues. Those balance issues get harder and harder to fix as they add more crap under the hood. This is all I'm saying.

Honestly I highly doubt HoTS will kill League. I got quite decent at the game for a bit after I bought the origins edition of Overwatch (decided to try the free tracer). But after coming back to League I can say that the difference in quality is enormous. While yes it is simpler, it relies on your teammates being decent even more than League does from what I've seen. (Your team shares level). That in itself keeps one person from rising above the rest in carrying. The lack of items keeps away from silly build potentials that can keep the game refreshing and saved me from quitting league completely multiple times. I could go on forever with my issues with HoTS. But I'll end it off by agreeing that it pretty much is just something Blizzard threw together to get a piece of the MOBA pie. Heck I would've been surprised if they didn't make it. The game basically screams quick cash grab. None of the characters have original abilities, they take from the games they're from. I'm not trying to shoot the game down for that, because it only makes sense. I'm just pointing out that the game can work with a really low budget because of this fact.

Zero ShingetsuMay 1, 20181 votes

Well, I don't think HotS will kill League either. I do think there's a chance it one day matches or surpasses League's player base, though, at the rate both games are going. I merely think there's a mechanical lesson League can learn from games of its like, though, that would improve League's balance going forward.