I think mage supports need to be reworked. A lot.

chipndip1··2 votes·688 views

It's a bit of a long read, but it's broken up into sections and paragraphs and crap so it's easier to look at:

Soraka : No one likes fighting her. She's not even ban worthy right now but people keep her on high ban priority because she's annoying. She just sits back, doesn't interact, and spams W. Even after all the changes Riot made, Soraka lanes are still the most non-interactive, boring farm lanes in the game. It's cool that Soraka being there twists the idea from "focus the adc" to "focus the support", but if the support is straight up in a bush 24/7 or almost fading into the fog of war almost all lane long, how do we do that? Too much of her value as a champ is front-loaded into W.

Janna : Packs way too much of what a support needs to do for a team all by herself + she's almost as non-interactive as Soraka. Hard cc? Q. Heals? In her ult. Slows? That's W. Movement speed buff? Passive. Attack buff? E. Shield? E again. She's like the Lee Sin of supports...except she has the win rate the forums think Lee Sin has.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/janna/support/platinum

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin/jungle/platinum

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/janna/support/diamond

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin/jungle/diamond

Lulu : So bad at supporting she isn't even known for supporting anymore, yet she's primarily designed as a support. Her situation in the game makes as little sense as her view of reality. Why is a support's lowest win rate in the game in her intended role for this long without anything being done about it?

Karma : Isn't getting touched for the immobile mages patch, so if they did a group patch for supports, it'd be nice to do something about Karma there. Due to the way her kit is, she sucks at both being an apc or a support. Her only hard cc is a very delayed single-target snare, and due to how long it takes to pull off, her spell rotation, which is only 2 spells, isn't even viable to attempt after laning during team fights, so she becomes a Q-bot. Sure, her R + E is a thing, but most people would like a support's R to just stun/knock back/knock up a group of enemies...not make you run faster into hard cc. Her kit's design just falls off way too hard after laning phase.

Sona : Skill floor's so low that the only way to keep her balanced is to make basically all her numbers for stats, scalings, and bases just as frustratingly low. Now most Sona players just opt for ap builds since the champ is entirely useless without it. She's robbed of the ability to flex pick because there's basically no way to make a solo-lane build viable without making her duo lane build straight toxic. She's seen as a jack of all trades, but not only is she a master of nothing...she's just not good at anything. She lacks very staple things supports pack in their basic spells, primarily hard cc. Things she does have are all granted at extremely low values due to the possibility of tagging 5 people. Due to this, she can't roam efficiently and she's nothing but a victim with no way out Kalista in Alistar certain Leona match-ups Blitzcrank. She's basically unable to function beyond an intermediate level in most instances, and trying to do so will put her in at extreme risk of dying to a sneeze.

Nami : Extremely high skill floor, but the payout for it is surprisingly lack-luster in most instances. Given how hard it is to land her shit since everything she does is so ridiculously slow moving, you'd think she'd be more rewarding when landing more Q's and R's. Basically, even though she's relatively designed well, her skill floor's so high that anyone could just pick a champ that has an easier time Alistar peeling Braum or Blitzcrank engaging Leona and get the same job done efficiently with way less hassle.

Zilean : Skill floor is surprisingly high for a guy with two lives...because it's so hard to hit anything with Q. At least since his Q has a huge .9 ratio for farming + his ult is literally life insurance, he sees a bit of pro play in the mid lane, given how pro play loves safety.

As it stands, mage supports are either:

  • Soraka Non interactive while getting tons of mileage off of spamming a button on their adc. Janna

  • Sona Offer nothing of real value that someone else can't do better Nami , and are relatively worthless at higher levels of play. Karma

  • Lulu Are venturing to solo lanes. Zilean

Only mage support that truly feels right that people appreciate is Bard, hence how much love the guy gets for being fun + he sees pro play while still being a rather difficult champ to master. All your other mage supports got serious design problems while tank supports are just better designed and better fit into the game. Definitely would like to see an overhaul in this area.

11 Comments

Death by Glamour2 votes

By mage supports i thought you meant the likes brand and velkoz.

Ita funny that you the likes of soraka and janna are uninteractive yet you mention leona and alistar in the same thread. Those two have the most braindead combos of all the supports yet are the two most effective lockdowns in the game.

Karma needs a rework end of, same with sona. Karma is just your generic mage now only decent thing about her now that her shield bomb has been removed is the heal bait. Sona still has that ult tho, ap ratios may be terrible but that ult is a game changer.

Nami is fine, high risk high reward, should be the bench mark of utility supports. I really should play jer more often.

Bards numbers are so overtuned simply because he is so difficult to play, "i want a bard support" said no solo que adc ever.

Edit im confused as to why solo lulu hasnt been nerfed hard yet, most supports who go solo have been neefed.

Ap janna got gutted, same with raka and taric.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ace 1n your hole,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmEavUGi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-18T04:23:38.324+0000)

By mage supports i thought you meant the likes brand and velkoz.

Those aren't supports. They're just mages taken bot lane as long range support options since actual mage supports that aren't Janna/Soraka pretty much suck...save Morgana solely due to her spell shield.

Ita funny that you the likes of soraka and janna are uninteractive yet you mention leona and alistar in the same thread. Those two have the most braindead combos of all the supports yet are the two most effective lockdowns in the game.

Non interactive =/= simple. Leona and Alistar are simple, yes, but since they don't attack from afar, they up front, pressure the lane with threats of hard cc, and when they do go in, they themselves are in. Janna and Soraka, in contrast, just hide in bushes or way off in the distance throwing E or W onto their adc. Soraka more than Janna, since Janna can at least do a few other tricks.

Karma needs a rework end of, same with sona. Karma is just your generic mage now only decent thing about her now that her shield bomb has been removed is the heal bait. Sona still has that ult tho, ap ratios may be terrible but that ult is a game changer.

Sona's ult is the only thing of real value in her kit, and most supports have hard cc in their kits outside of their ults. If they don't, they don't support anymore. Nunu

Nami is fine, high risk high reward, should be the bench mark of utility supports. I really should play jer more often.

No she isn't. Her risk isn't the problem. It's her difficulty. She's TOO difficult for not enough reward when you can use Alistar and just run your face into the enemy, or use Blitz and pull their carry straight to you. Nami's issue isn't risk/reward, it's difficulty/payout. She's just needlessly difficult to play since all her shit is so easy to dodge.

Bards numbers are so overtuned simply because he is so difficult to play, "i want a bard support" said no solo que adc ever.

Still the best designed mage support in the game. Risk/Reward is high, skill floor/skill ceiling isn't skewed too hard one way or the other, and he's fun to play.

Edit im confused as to why solo lulu hasnt been nerfed hard yet, most supports who go solo have been neefed.

Cause you can't nerf her any more than this without making her disappear from relevance.

Ap janna got gutted, same with raka and taric.

This has nothing to do with anything.

GEMS GEMS GEMS1 votes

They are making big changes to Soraka next patch to make her kit more interactive with her poke, but I don't think it's going to change the way most people play her tbh. The only way to make a Soraka stop being a heal spammer is to gut her kit, but then she's not Soraka.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=GEMS GEMS GEMS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmEavUGi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-02-18T04:24:37.433+0000)

They are making big changes to Soraka next patch to make her kit more interactive with her poke, but I don't think it's going to change the way most people play her tbh. The only way to make a Soraka stop being a heal spammer is to gut her kit, but then she's not Soraka.

Hence why I think her kit just needs an overhaul. Something that adds more power to her Q and E so W isn't ALL she can do.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

#DISCLAIMER: TRIGGER AND LONG POST WARNING

Lulu : So bad at supporting she isn't even known for supporting anymore, because people are way too stupid to even know what's the purpose of a buff/debuff support. So instead if actually putting on thinking caps and actually play support and learn to be a trickster like how she is supposed to be in her lore, they instead take her mid/top and become brainded scripters and claim that Lulu support sucks because of their inability to actually think.

ftfy :^)

Though back on a more serious approach, this probably won't happen till season 7 or anything, after reworking mages, assassins, diving bruisers, and the like. What makes you think that Rito would rework supports into a "better" state, when they introduced the utility scalings that scales off from AP simply because they have no idea on what supports do and build and believed that they will build 600+ AP WITH THE SUPPORT INCOME. And their refusal to remove/rework them?

The idea of mage (I think calling them non-tank supports are better) supports is to provide lots of utility with little damage, ranging from heals, peels, engage, pretty much anything else other than dealing significant damage with a reduced income. The peels, heals, and the utility they offer often is considered "antifun" because of the peeling nature; denying kills, to carries, are stupid and promote "antifun" mechanics. Have you ever played against debuff classes and healers in mmo PVP? What about in games with healers on the enemy side, that shit better be killed ASAP or else fighting them would be a nightmare. That's what dealing with supports from an enemy perspective is like, the "antifun", naturally, is going to exist. Yes, we can work out a way to make them not as "antifun", but it's the identity that we want to keep here.

Remove utility scalings, or rework them so they don't scale off AP. Supports don't even build AP, and in the rare chance, they get ~200 at most.


Soraka : It's either she's going to be the healer, or not annoying. Pick only one; in any PvP situation she's going to be antifun to some extent if she is going to keep her identity as a dedicated healer. Yes, dealing with her from an enemy perspective is stupid especially when you're not an all-in tank or some shit, but she's like Vayne/Kat in teamfights: if you don't kill her, you're screwed (in which IMO it is a lot easier and less pressuring to deal with)... it's like the Cinderhulk meta all over again. Not because you will die, but her teammates will kill you. The range nerf is reasonable, even the current PBE changes are actually okay, though tuning is just what is necessary.

Sona : if I'm getting Riot's message right, is that she is intended to be a low skillfloor, aura-based support. Though I'll be honest here, she is in an awkward spot. If she is also going to keep the "number support" kind of identity (as in no CC, just heals/poke), then she will have to build AP no matter what. The idea of her as an aura support isn't necessarily relevant; the auras are used only by the smartest supports and/or in team play. Sure, reworking Sona's auras to make her less "pick to win" did served its purpose, but it it didn't really do much to Sona's overall power. Weak since s4? That's because other supports get to build items, and Sona was a strong support back in the dark ages of the 0 item because she is 100% functional with just her base damages and 0 items, other supports not necessarily. With the introduction of support gold items to save the support income and actually let them build items, other supports (especially tanks) caught up to Sona's power level. So in reality, she wasn't really nerfed, but looks nerfed because others just... got better. Back on actual topic. Her auras and the effects are merely minuscule because of how easily spammable they are. Because of that, people don't even notice that her auras even do something, and therefore, no one uses it! The effects are still very subtle and unnoticeable, and IMO the duration is a bit on the short side. If she is going to get reworked for the better, power shifts should be more focused on her "interactive" auras, not her poking/healing/facerolling abilities. As long as she has no reliable CC in her kit (ult doesn't count), she will forever be AP-reliant. People and Riot being fine with that is another question.

Lulu : I'll be honest here, I'm still convinced that it's just the player mentality of how they play things, not because she's shit as a champion (hint that she isn't perfect, but she isn't shit either), which explains why Lulu top/mid is far more popular than Lulu support. I don't mind her being able to fulfill multiple roles (trust me Lulu jungle is 100% legit and I had lots of fun as that going off-tank AP build), though it's really dumb to automatically assume that someone who can play Lulu support can also play top/mid, and then name-call them for something they can't and/or didn't do... no we can't, they are two completely different playstyles; so different that they might as well be two different champions. In fact, Lulu top is pretty much your typical ranged lane bully, really stupid damage early on, falls off later to do utility instead. Some lane bullies toplane serve as tanks later game, though still doing some damage. Lulu is just an more annoying, ranged version of those. And remember what I tell you about debuffs? Never fun to go against in any PvP situation. Anecdotes aside... As a support, she NEEDS both parties to be smart. Yes, I'm talking about the Jhin level of dependence; if he or his support is garbage, RIP botlane. Azir is "garbage"? Until you see one that knows what the fuck he's doing. This is what Lulu is like. Like Sona, her buffs/debuffs are rather subtle (I have watched myself play from a 3rd person perspective and I hardly notice anything unless that 3rd person is her ADC), which is a common reason people find her extremely underwhelming as a support. It's just a matter of the popularity of certain playstyles. Her current kit is fine, though needs a good ol' number tweaking here and there. Though I'd love to remove W movespeed scalings completely and add a % Q reduction on lane minions but I'm going to get stabbed to death... oh wait

Nami : Same case as Lulu without the top/midlane hype.

Janna : Disengage never falls out of flavor. No, I'm serious, unless the mage meta makes a comeback... No matter how hard her numbers are nerfed, she will still be a strong pick unless her disengage identity is thrown into the trashcan.

Karma : Anything better than "a shittier version of Lulu" is all I'm asking for, though if played well she is deadly.

Zilean : I'm not sure what's his general direction is supposed to be, but his thematic as a "time mage" is just a strange idea to start with. Anything is better than pre-rework Zilean... any good one is still as threatening as his pre-rework version. But I guess that's just me.


No one says anyone reading this have to agree with me, but that's all something to consider instead of making silly assumptions.

But seriously, rework/remove utility scalings and do everyone a favor :^(

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmEavUGi,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-18T05:19:37.393+0000)

#DISCLAIMER: TRIGGER AND LONG POST WARNING snip

Lulu: The problem is that, in all elos, from Silver to Diamond (because Bronze I didn't even check because fuck Bronze Bayou), Lulu's support stats are lower than her top and mid stats, with mid being the highest. At all elos. Something's wrong with her design as a whole, because she's been shoved out of bot lane and functions better as a solo-laner with a kit designed for duo-laning, which makes no sense. I'm not saying you can't manage using Lulu support ever or something, but then again...people managed Trundle support for a bit.

Sona: Sona HAS been nerfed a shit ton, to be fair to history. Her kit's low skill floor and the resulting balance changes due to it makes it impossible to move anywhere beyond a intermediate level of play without being straight outclassed. It's kind of like how Annie falls off (funny how she also needs a rework). They're simple, and they stomp low elo because of that, but as you climb, people that know how to play can exploit their kits and run them over. In Sona's case, she lacks hard cc in her basic kit, and that makes it literally impossible for her to diffuse situations that almost any other support has some answer to in their own kits. She can't engage well. She can't roam well. She can't spam heal. Her shield is weak and can be out-lasted by a good deal of DoTs if it manages to stay up through that damage. Her E is selfish as fuck and barely helps allies (although it's kind of useful for herself). Her kit just doesn't allow for a player to grow beyond a crucial point, and that's not really fair to fans of the champ that they're doomed to be gimped because she's supposed to be "beginner friendly". Riot's proven to me that they don't know how to handle low counter-play kits like these. They should do away with it and others like it so it gives champs a more healthy existence in the game.

Soraka: I choose not annoying. Like I said, I don't have much faith in Riot when it comes to low counter-play kits.

Janna: You're not wrong. Maybe they should tinker with parts of her kit...maybe change up a move here or there. Right now, she just does everything someone would want a support to do while being a really safe pick to do it. I imagine you looked at those links for her high elo stats? They're bloody ridiculous.

Karma: Rework required. This one was a mess. She's REALLY strong in lane...and then she just falls off the face of the Earth much like how B.O.B would want us to believe she would.

Nami: The issue is that her bubble is notorious for how difficult it is to land + her R is insanely slow + those two parts of her kit are probably the most important parts of it. Why use her when you can use Alistar/Braum/Blitz for offense or Janna for defense? So much easier and way more effective. No point in Nami.

Zilean: I thought they'd give Zilean a real rework from before. All they did was change his Q into a skill shot and then later change his passive into something that's kind of useful if he's mid laning...which is stupid because he should be supporting like wtf? He needs a real overhaul.

Like, if they would, I'd like for Sona Karma Zilean to have larger scale overhauls more than anything.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

{quoted}

Lulu

SoloQ =/= team play. I cannot stress on that part.

In soloQ it is more likely for her to fare better in mid/top because of the current meta, how people are more inclined to bandwagon popular picks/playstyles, and that people... just don't even know what the heck her E shield does! (Too bad people don't know Pix is a broken OP AA steroid that makes ADCs deal magic damage... like dude, what other support does that other than Nami?) But again, most of such winrates come from SoloQ and the like, so it is simply wrong to assume a champ "needs work" because people are too dumb. Not saying you're wrong; I mean it's just statistics. But that alone doesn't necessarily determine a champ's actual current state. That's something to keep in mind. Though yes, a good tweak on her numbers (cough damage values) is something that should be taken into account.

Sona:

The idea of "aura support" is not working as intended, to put it into a better answer. Unless her identity gets a buff or some kind of "rework", then she will remain "strong in lower divisions, subpar higher up". It's the nature of her kit that forces her to be in her current state. Buffing her numbers will only make her current case more extreme, lowering her numbers will make her garbage all-around.

Her E DOES need a buff, I'll admit. As much as I love the passive of slowing a target upon AA proc, the active is just too underwhelming to be useful for anything. Range buff, duration buff, lowered CD kind of buff, more +movespeed buff, you name it; it needs a buff.

Janna:

Nerfs on her shield values where? That's a good start.

I don't even want to peep into the statistics of anything right now, but I can already predict where it's going.

Karma:

Anything to give her an unique identity, that is. I always loved the dual-use of spells, because it encourages meaningful decision-making and flexibility in kits, though still possible to make them as little as oppressive as possible.

Nami:

Nami is stronger in terms of engage, while Janna excels at disengage. Nami is the true jack-of-all-trades support, so you can't really say she is the "worse version of Janna". Maybe a little QoL buff on her bubbles may need a bit of tweaking, but remember what happened to Veigar... you get the point.

Like, if they would, I'd like for Sona Karma Zilean to have larger scale overhauls more than anything.

The general direction of their defined yet reasonable strengths and weaknesses aren't even there, so this is where the challenge will start.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmEavUGi,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-02-18T06:12:54.665+0000) well, yea, snip. Saving space and all...

On Lulu's front, do they even play Lulu support in pro play? I swear I've only seen mid and top Lulu when I watch the LCS and see her there. Also, from what I've experienced, bonus ap damage on AA's tends to be a weak benefit. Normally I'd lace a picture of what I'm talking about in a sentence like that, but it's OBVIOUSLY Ardent Censor so yea. >_>

Idk, maybe a move change or something and some number tweaks so she can really push her weight around as a support. When I lane against Lulu the lane's usually rather easy, personally.

On Sona's front, like I said, I don't trust Riot with that type of play style. Kayle's toxic. Nunu's toxic. Sona's toxic. Annie's toxic. Then Riot just gates them in some random way or another and prays for the best. Sona's kit just isn't dynamic like other supports. She's a victim to competent players and a lane stomper otherwise, but that's not necessarily an ideal state of balance. Even if she was going to remain as an aura support (which I honestly don't want because the auras cut too much into her power budget and her ability to function individually), she's still lacking hard cc outside of ult. That factor is extremely important for supports in the long run.

On Nami's front, it's not that she can or can't do X. It's that the difficulty of doing so properly with Nami just deters using Nami. Why worry about landing her slow moving wave or obvious as sin bubble when you can surprise ram your face into the enemy Vayne's ass with Alistar? Or just hit R and dispel an entire team fight with Janna? Or use Braum's shield and walk your whole team out of a bad mess? Nami's kit is useful on many fronts, but the difficulty to use it while other options are available invalidates Nami herself. It's like...why use a wooden plank to hammer in a nail when your hammer is right next to you?

Athenes Lulu1 votes

They used to, but with their extreme mechanics and how they play supports in competitive (go only mobis, roam 24/7, only have level 1 support gold item), Lulu, to them, is a terrible choice.

Lulu as a support isn't the best at roaming because of her weaker early game as a support, and nor can she singlehandedly snowball her allies early on. Her job, in lane, is to play safe, try to deny as much farm as possible, or in the rare case of botlane she is the babysitter, which is very favorable and fitting for a solo laner in competitve; it is no surprise that they love picking her. No matter how Rito changes her, most likely she will not be picked competitively as a support anymore unless pros decide to change what they want on supports. That's also something many people fail to see: Lulu is a great solo laner not because she is "just better" out of the blue, but because of the specific comps (dps jungler, dps mid/top, and TANK SUPPORT) and playstyles that the pros favored in their competitive games.

Now, back to soloQ and spec live. Of course with the obvious answer of "don't trust anyone in soloQ", Lulu top/mid happens to fare well higher up because what she really needs to excel there is sharp mechanics, and maybe just a little bit of game knowledge, as compared to the super-thinking-cap-heavy-requirement of botlane. Most people don't know how to even support properly; you can sometimes ask random d5 mid mains and they have absolutely no clue, in which the only requirements to play a good Lulu solo fits their playstyles quite well.

And we all know to never let idiots in low elo support either; we all know how catastrophic when they have zero game knowledge and just singlehandedly feeds for their teams. Someone who isn't smart can just pick up Thresh, Leona, Blitz, or even Alistar and do well because the minimum requirements is "just land a good hook, don't go in at retarded times, and feed your stupid ADC". Raka's only requirement is to "spam W as quickly as you can and don't die". Or even a mage support like Annie and Brand: "dish out as much stupid damage as possible without taking too many kills". What do all these examples have in common? Need for mainly mechanics, half a brain about supporting, and ADCs with half a brain; which is why people in general can play as these "supports" better, therefore thinking that they are better. You don't have to know which way is better; there is no wrong answer as much as you click buttons in order and landed them properly. Of course there's much more, but that's just the bare minimum of what they need in order to not feed.

For Lulu and Nami, what do they need? It's not just "mainly mechanics", but as well as a good knowledge of botlane in general, decision making skills (eg: do I buff myself so I can trade better, or do I buff my ADC so he can do the trading?), knowledge of how ADCs function (I mean, that's a pretty big deal if you're one doing the timing on buffs and the like), and an ADC with at least 3/4 of a brain. Heck, having decent mechanics is not even an requirement to know how to play Lulu support at all! I have been maining Lulu support for 3 years and can confirm; and I have the garbage of the garbage mechanical skills btw Because of all that "high decisive skill floor" on Nami and Lulu, they are extremely unappealing and therefore unpopular to most people. And speaking of dependency... hah. Or ever since preseason S4 where base values aren't everything anymore...

Hope this explains why they weren't so popular.


Well, Lulu's Pix buff is of course subtle, but early on it's kinda stupid. That's like a free +10 magic damage upon each AA, and we all know that's a good deal early on in lane especially when it comes to trades. I have seen dozens of times where because of Pix and his sparkly bolts, my ADCs have gotten kills. Also, placing Pix on your ADC is also a good "scare" tactic; I mean you stay away and don't trade when Janna's ADC has her shield. What's even better is the AA steroid stays in effect even after the shield is broken. Janna's "mini BF sword" would be gone when there's no shield, Nami's buff is good for only 3 AA's, Lulu's Pix stays there.

Though it is just merely playstyle, but I shield my ADC a lot. It even looks like as if Pix is following my ADC permanently from a 3rd person point of view, so that's a "permanent" AA steroid buff. What does that also mean? item 3504 + Windspeaker's would be great on Lulu if that's the case, even if it's only one target.

Nami's empowered buff counts as magic damage dealt by the target ally, for those that didn't know.


Speaking of Sona... pretty much.

######I sometimes wonder if people actually read our "essays", because people usually take only pros/high elos into account. But this is actually a lot of fun, I'll admit.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OmEavUGi,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-18T07:35:44.205+0000)

######I sometimes wonder if people actually read our "essays", because people usually take only pros/high elos into account. But this is actually a lot of fun, I'll admit.

Nah, the only things people read are:

  • Riot hate

  • Champ hate

  • Memes

  • Shit posts

Anything worth reading is usually ignored on the forums. Anything ridiculously stupid gets tons of comments. Like right now, in another thread, I'm trying to explain to a Bronze player why Garen's secondarily a tank...and he said he's not much like Poppy or Zac. The salt that makes me hit "Play again" is the same shit driving me to respond to this guy until he gets it, but it's a huge time sink.

As for difficulty of use vs. payout for using, as much as it's not absolutely deplorable to have difficult to use champs, I think the payout for being significantly harder to use should be at least a bit better than this. If Alistar wants to peel someone, he just runs right at them and bucks them half a lane away. If he's taking big damage, he pops ult and gets an extra 70% off damage dealt to him. If Nami wants to peel without using R, she has to land one of the hardest skill shots to land in the game. In any case, ever, why would I want Nami's bubble when I could just buck an enemy with Alistar? If I want to engage, I can E + Q and then effect a bigger radius around Alistar much easier than it would be to land that small, slow bubble while keeping the enemy unable to move for just as long. There's just not much of a convincing argument to use Nami in most cases do to that, and the same thing applies to supporting with Lulu, especially since her main means of saving her allies is turning the enemy into a moving animal, meaning they can still try to keep up with you while they're changed.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

{quoted}

Anything worth reading is usually ignored on the forums. Anything ridiculously stupid gets tons of comments.

Or anything that is unpopular and "not proven by pros". There are way too many things already included in that list, so I'll just leave it as that.

There's just not much of a convincing argument to use Nami in most cases do to that, and the same thing applies to supporting with Lulu, especially since her main means of saving her allies is turning the enemy into a moving animal, meaning they can still try to keep up with you while they're changed.

Exactly, they're just unpopular, though doesn't mean they are completely replaced by other champs and people still have a reason to pick them over, say, Alistar. Sure, they do similar jobs, but do you want control from afar and hand out buffs, or control close-up and tank on your own? Do you want to poke and peel at once, or dedicate yourself to just peel? Or do you want to be more disengage-focused, or engage-focused, though both hand out buffs and control from afar?

######Cough Karma cough... her being "just a more damage-oriented Lulu" is something that needs changes.

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